I was just getting the facts straight (atleast trying)
from a concorde to a skippyball is nerfed, even if it was the idea right.
And then coil replies that it hasnt even been changed a bit ( So are you saying the programmer did a bad job is that it? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> j/k )
I can get used to jp as it is now, I just wished I wouldn't have loved it so much b4 <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I tend to agree that the nerfpack should be reduced in cost. Maybe the 1.04 JP warrented a higher price tag, but the 2.0 JP certainly does not.
I might suggest putting JP research on the advanced armory table, whereas when you upgrade to advanced armory, you can then research JPs from there. Also, I would like to see a cost reduction in research and JP cost. Maybe down to the 1.04 levels (25/9), or maybe even slightly less (20/7 maybe?).
The jetpack is nerfed far too much. Every aspect that made it good in 1.04 has been changed.
HA rushing is just gunna get linear <b>fast</b>, 100% of games I have played HA has been researched first... Please bring some fun back and improve the jetpack. I doubt very much that you would see a jetpack in a clan game now.
I think you're all too worried that improving the jetpack will make another 1.04, which is completely wrong.
Well the only time I have seen JP's to be useful are on nothing, as they are so rare aliens hardly ever protect redroom. If ALL maps had a position like it perhaps they would be used more often. They can also be effective on caged, lost and other alien biased maps (the vent structures gives aliens a massive bonus) as it allows for rapid movement of your marines that would otherwose be impossible.
Personally I try to research JP's whenever possible. I find often HA is not nessecary as with marines you either dominate from the start or lose. As such I find if (on a rare occasion) I am comming a winning marine side JP's are harmless fun. They improve your marines a little and aren't as annoying to aliens.
If however we are in a tight spot and the next upgrade is make or break them I [b]always[/] go HA.
I definately think JP's need cost reduction/improvement, what's more I didn't like JP/HMG rushes! I don't want them back to 1.04 standard but atm they are a bit of a joke. They really are as warpzome says "Jetpack-was-intended-as-a-fun-gimick..." when at their current cost they should be ALOT more.
I think that jetpacks are so underused, people haven't had the time to really have a serious go with them.
Note that every (or nearly-every) hive has a small gap on top, where when crouched, OCs generally will be unable to hit you. Now, with level 3 weapons, it takes around thirty shotgun bullets to kill a hive. So with three+ marines, the skulks will still be miles away by the time the hive goes splat. Send two groups off to two seperate hives, and you can pull victory away from the aliens in one swoop. Sure, they require a bit of medpack spam from the commander, but I believe that they're still deadly. And possibly still overpowered. ;P
It's espiecally fun when the aliens are mostly Onos. By the time they've finished arguing about who should devolve to Skulk, they'll be down at least two hives. ;D
<!--QuoteBegin--zippy+Aug 26 2003, 12:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zippy @ Aug 26 2003, 12:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->to get good lift you have to jump then jetpack and you can't stop fall damage coz it's not powerfull enough.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was already doing this... I guess it's an old habit from playing Tribes...
My $.02 is that the JP is fine. I always thought the infinite jetpacking around in 1.04 was a bit ridiculous, and as an alien it was downright frustrating.
I think the upward thrust needs to be a lot greater, and you need to be able to maneuver in midair a lot better. the forward thrust and fuel reserve are both fine.
also, more open, high ceilinged rooms in the maps would help alot. 90% of the areas in NS are very JP unfriendly (its not as bad for lerks since they can at least maneuver excellently if they are skilled), at least i know i have no trouble goring/devouring JPrines as an onos in all hallways and most rooms, as JPers are very commonly either restricted by low celilings or 'caught' on obstacles on the ceiling, like rafters.
Only increase the upward thrust by a small fraction and it should be enough
Or to justify its well....uselessness, you'll have to drop the price
But I don't gt why people are saying the JP is bad,I practised with it and could fly as much as I wanted (except of course the fuel won't let me hovar forever),you just need to press the spacebar before you start falling,or prepare for some major fuel loss
I agree that the jetpacks are too expensive. But i don´t agree to improve them. It was so frustrating in 1.04 seeing a jp dance around your hive shooting it to a pulp while you had no chance to kill them in time. Never bring back the old jp or we are back at square 1 where jp rambo marines own all our hives. I personally love the new jp. it still gives me the advantage if i am in the right spots(not cramped hallways) but i understand that the comms can´t afford its ridiculously high price.
<!--QuoteBegin--Jaml+Aug 27 2003, 01:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jaml @ Aug 27 2003, 01:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree that the jetpacks are too expensive. But i don´t agree to improve them. It was so frustrating in 1.04 seeing a jp dance around your hive shooting it to a pulp while you had no chance to kill them in time. Never bring back the old jp or we are back at square 1 where jp rambo marines own all our hives. I personally love the new jp. it still gives me the advantage if i am in the right spots(not cramped hallways) but i understand that the comms can´t afford its ridiculously high price.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So basically, you want a great piece of gameplay forever gone just because you have bitter memories? Listen, 1.04 jetpacks as an alien were frustrating for the following reasons:
1) They came way too early. 2) Aliens were stuck as skulks against them 95% of the time (see reason 1) 3) Marines owned the early game hard, and therefore could tech straight to them with no ill consequences. (cause of reason 1)
All these problems are gone. So why are jetpacks so nerfed? Can you honestly say that you wouldn't want to try 1.04 jetpacks in 2.0 with all the improvements aliens received? You wouldn't have dumb OCs that miss the jetpackers 99% of the time. You would have aimbotting OCs that hit them 99% of the time. You would have lerks. You would probably also have fades (no acid rockets probably, I know, but you could blink up in the air and swat them out of the sky.)
I would personally be thrilled to have the old jetpacks in the 2.0 environment, both to use them and to face them as an alien. It would be fun.
Well kazyras if you switch acid rockets back to hive 2 then lets talk about going back to the 1.04 jp. But as its now the aliens have no reasonable counter to jp. Bringing down a healthspammed jp with a shotgun as a lerk takes too long and you have no other ranged abilitys till hive 3. 1.04 flight model was tremendously overpowered and should never come back. Forcing the jp´er to land from time to time is great. No more hive ramboing. And marines already get boosts in 2.1a so no need to give them back the ueber-jp. And OC don´t cover all the spots of the hives unless there are a lot of them and a gorge that knows how to place em right. And even then i can just land on the hive and be save form them shooting it to death while the comm spamms health. Just take powersilo and refinery. Its ridiculously easy to get there and nail the hive even with OC. OC are expensive and aliens can´t afford to secure every hive with them. The res simply need to be invested in a 2. hive and upgrades if you play against a decent marine team.
1) cheaper 2) untie the protolab from the AA and tie it to the HA upgrade directly 3) improve useability
I personally think doing 3) would do it to improve gameplay, but the likelyhood of that happening is like nothing. 2) would serve to only make the marine tech tree more linear than it already is. #1 would make people at least make people consider it. If the old JPs were restored with some fixes, then the marine tech tree would actually branch off into two areas: mobility or power.
I really don't care if the JP were intended as jumpjets. 'Cause it really isn't all that fun or useful.
<!--QuoteBegin--Jaml+Aug 27 2003, 01:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jaml @ Aug 27 2003, 01:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well kazyras if you switch acid rockets back to hive 2 then lets talk about going back to the 1.04 jp. But as its now the aliens have no reasonable counter to jp. Bringing down a healthspammed jp with a shotgun as a lerk takes too long and you have no other ranged abilitys till hive 3. 1.04 flight model was tremendously overpowered and should never come back. Forcing the jp´er to land from time to time is great. No more hive ramboing. And marines already get boosts in 2.1a so no need to give them back the ueber-jp. And OC don´t cover all the spots of the hives unless there are a lot of them and a gorge that knows how to place em right. And even then i can just land on the hive and be save form them shooting it to death while the comm spamms health. Just take powersilo and refinery. Its ridiculously easy to get there and nail the hive even with OC. OC are expensive and aliens can´t afford to secure every hive with them. The res simply need to be invested in a 2. hive and upgrades if you play against a decent marine team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> JP counters:
<!--QuoteBegin--Jaml+Aug 27 2003, 01:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jaml @ Aug 27 2003, 01:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree that the jetpacks are too expensive. But i don´t agree to improve them. It was so frustrating in 1.04 seeing a jp dance around your hive shooting it to a pulp while you had no chance to kill them in time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Who said that an <b>improvement</b> is taking them back to 1.04 levels? There was a concept invented in 1856 called 'compromise' this means 'taking the middle ground'.
I'm not sure that in 2.0 a 1.04 JP would be easily countered. However currently it is quite poor, I actually practised quite alot with the JP but aliens can block large areas with just 2-3 OC's spread out. Not to mention the fact that they are v.poor as an onos counter.
Perhaps a 1.04 JP that isn't fps dependent and only gets fuel on the ground? IMHO the main problem with the 1.04 JP was you never had to land I never thought thrust was an issue.
Jetpacks are not nerfed too bad. It's not supposed to make you a human lerk. One that hov<b>e</b>rs without... flapping...
It's a getaway tool and a tool to get to placed you couldn't get before. It works perfect for me when I have an LMg and a jetpack on my back, see 3-4 skulks ahead of me, fire as many rounds I got, jump up and behind them, then fire the rest of it and kill them all (usually reloading in the air first, but who got time for that). And it works wonders getting on top of hives (or in the corner like in The Great Viaduct on that... map... man, I got to learn the names of these maps. After a year I still don't remember them <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ).
But I think they should becone a little bit cheaper. Maybe at least 5 less resources.
1) OCs 2) Spore 3) Spikes 4) Leap 5) Blink 6) 2 minute Hive 7) Umbra 8) Gore 9) Spit(!) 10) Healing spray 11) Devour <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1.)OC only usefu if they have line of sight. There are plenty of spots where they dont hit you. And they are too expensive to be thrown around the hive.
2.) Spores are too weak. With comm support you can shotgun a hive easily under a spore cloud. You just need a health pack now and then.
3.)Spikes. Do you know how hard it is to down a jp´er with spikes while he unloads a hmg/shottie clip at you. Lerks are weak and you need higher lifeforms to fight a good jp´er but they cannot reach him until he lands.
4.)Leap lol. Try to hit a 1.04 jper who knows how to fly with leap. don´t be ridiculous
5.)Look above.
6.)No new anti jp abilities gained with a 2. hive.
7.) too short too small to cover the entire hive.
8.) do you have ever seen a 1.04 jper? he never touches ground. no chance to land a gore hit
9.) Spit isn´t hitscan. Can easily be doged. We are talking about 1.04 jps where you can zip around a hive like a fly on crack.
10.) lol yeah right.
11.)to devour him he must come down first. with 1.04 he never has to land or he could just fly into a vent. Flying is soo easy in 1.04. Now its much better. As soon as you release the jump button once there is no way to go up again before paying the onos below you a short visit.
After reading all 4 pages of this thread, I have come to these conclusions.
1) JPs are fine the way they are.
2) However, for their current use, they are FAR too overpriced. They simply cannot match up beside HA with the current price tag. I mean, 5 more res and you've got HA, why waste it on a JP that isn't all that great for it's cost anyway?
3) Making them available at the same time is a joke. Having just HA become available at same time as adv. armory seems interesting. You get big guns at the same time as nice armor. JPs should be linked to the obs or something, since their primary use is recon.
Personally, I think that the <b>weight=less thrust</b> issue should be removed (try flying around with just a knife. It's really easy, but a knife isn't going to allow you to do anything).
Also, make the fuel consumption slightly higher (so you'll run out of fuel faster) and make it recharge slightly faster too. However, you can only recharge when you're on the ground. This would mean that you'd have jetpacks with 1.04 type maneuverability, but they would be forced to land for a while when they run out of fuel. This would then make them vunerable to alien melee attacks.
Currently, you are forced to land too often with 2.0 jetpacks, even when you have plenty of fuel. This is because a big weapon weights you down too much. This means that it's easy for anything to get you, because you spend more time on the ground than in the air. If you didn't have to land as often, but when you did you had to wait to recharge for a longer time, I think it would be perfect.
I remember that a lot of people say that they can use the JP now just like they did in 1.04. I think I remember telling these people that they must have been pretty bad at using the JP in 1.04.
When they said they were going to nerf the JP rush, I'm sure everyone was in favor of doing it. I'm sure they didn't expect them to make the JP useless AND put it ridiculously high in the tech tree AND cost way more. I just thought they would make fuel limitted enough and JP not come into the game too early.
hmm.. haven't seen JPs put to use at all in 2.0 yet.. I agree that it was nerfed to much. Heck, what use does it have? By the time you can get JPs, you could easily outfit every one in HA.
Counter against Onos? heh... unless you guys are playing on some weird servers.. my onos counter is shotguns. About the best a JP does against an onos is allow you to being a floating meal, rather than a walking one. I actually haven't seen a lone onos in a while.. it's almost suicidal as an onos to run out without a lerk as an umbra buddy.. and lerks are pretty much the JP counter.
New JP has the same idea just a lil different usage behind it. When you are on aliens you will be glad it is nerfed and when you are on marines you are going to want that 1.04 JP back.
Deep down inside of us all we were all glad to see that 1.04 JP go.
<!--QuoteBegin--Jaml+Aug 27 2003, 05:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jaml @ Aug 27 2003, 05:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 10.) lol yeah right. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you realise that healing spray covers nearly a whole room right? it's nearly impossible to miss with it. In 1.04 I've been in a few (rare) games where a JP rush was countered by mass gorging, everyone switched to heal spray and attacked the JPer.. downed in seconds.
Of course this was with a few OCs in the hive, so making the JPer stand still for the com to medpack isn't exactly the brightest idea.
Someone asked for the 2.0 JP counters. I was trying to be helpful don't be mean.
Anyway, I'm gonna reply to you just for fun:
1) Currently, if the OC sees you it can hit you.
2) Exactly, forcing them down. :\
3) So you say it's not a counter cause you can't aim?
4) Same as 3
5) Same as 3
6) Leap is gained and so is umbra
7) Man now I know you don't even play this game. You don't need to be "covered" just IN it.
8) Where are talking about 2.0...
9) See man. We are not even on the same page. Why am I replying
10) read other guys post. Point in general direction. GG
11) Exactly what he must do every 5 seconds...
Anyway, I don't really care what improvement is made. Just something. It has too much going against it. Being available at the same time as HA made sense in 1.0, but in 2.0 it's like picking between a berry or a melon. I also hate how it works in halls...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Deep down inside of us all we were all glad to see that 1.04 JP go. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Listen. In 1.04 we had nearly all of the above listed counters plus acid rocket at hive 2. JPs were still way overpowered. They flew in and dropped a hive in about 30 secs. They didn´t even gave you the time to react. And often there were lerks and gorges to defend. But the jper still prevailed because of the 1.04 flight model. health spraying? I will see that against a jp/hmg guy in 1.04. Youre sooo dead if he has near decent aim. Anything below a fade dies in seconds and fades now have no acid rocket anymore. So bringing the old flight model back would bring marine jp whoring back. And without reasonable counters and the new shotgun they can just crush all your hives with closed eyes.
1) OCs 2) Spore 3) Spikes 4) Leap 5) Blink 6) 2 minute Hive 7) Umbra 8) Gore 9) Spit(!) 10) Healing spray 11) Devour <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1.)OC only usefu if they have line of sight. There are plenty of spots where they dont hit you. And they are too expensive to be thrown around the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
10 res to build an OC and you start with 25 res? Currently you don't even need to defend a hive until you see HA when you have 2+ hives. OCs are super accurate too. OCs + aliens attacking you = problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2.) Spores are too weak. With comm support you can shotgun a hive easily under a spore cloud. You just need a health pack now and then.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spores may be quite weak, but if the Lerk is clever, he can spore the corridors/vents the jper is using... He can also combine this with spikes and umbra.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3.)Spikes. Do you know how hard it is to down a jp´er with spikes while he unloads a hmg/shottie clip at you. Lerks are weak and you need higher lifeforms to fight a good jp´er but they cannot reach him until he lands.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spikes are fantastic!!! If you get shot and don't move then it's your own fault. If he is going after the hive you can get him more easily. Do you know it takes 9 spikes to kill a marine without upgrades? Combinded with spores/umbra/primal scream makes the Lerk lethal lethal. What more, is that the Lerk is a long range fighter. Two or more Lerks and JPers have no chance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4.)Leap lol. Try to hit a 1.04 jper who knows how to fly with leap. don´t be ridiculous<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you ever heard of leap and bite? This was how most JP rushes were foiled.
Blink would work by being able to get into vents and attack the JPers in there. It would be very hard to use it in the above scenario though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->6.)No new anti jp abilities gained with a 2. hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you use your brain you can use any of the abilities to catch out JPers... Hiding in vents/hallways etc.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->7.) too short too small to cover the entire hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What has already been said. This also gives cover for you/teammates to take down jetpackers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->8.) do you have ever seen a 1.04 jper? he never touches ground. no chance to land a gore hit<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, waiting in corridors... Even better with cloaking.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->9.) Spit isn´t hitscan. Can easily be doged. We are talking about 1.04 jps where you can zip around a hive like a fly on crack.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It causes more damage, but as you said it would be hard to hit a JPer. Combined with other aliens attacking could be more dangerous.
What has been said. Probably not that helpful really.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->11.)to devour him he must come down first. with 1.04 he never has to land or he could just fly into a vent. Flying is soo easy in 1.04. Now its much better. As soon as you release the jump button once there is no way to go up again before paying the onos below you a short visit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See my point in 8.
People are too paranoid that the JP would become another 1.04. This will never happen if JPs tech time and cost was fixed.
With all the additions HA gets, what is the point in JPs? Why don't JPs get light armour instead of HA? JPs are a really fun addition to the marine team but at the moment the just frustrate a lot of people, <b>if they are ever researched</b>.
<!--QuoteBegin--Jaml+Aug 27 2003, 03:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jaml @ Aug 27 2003, 03:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Listen. In 1.04 we had nearly all of the above listed counters plus acid rocket at hive 2. JPs were still way overpowered. They flew in and dropped a hive in about 30 secs. They didn´t even gave you the time to react. And often there were lerks and gorges to defend. But the jper still prevailed because of the 1.04 flight model. health spraying? I will see that against a jp/hmg guy in 1.04. Youre sooo dead if he has near decent aim. Anything below a fade dies in seconds and fades now have no acid rocket anymore. So bringing the old flight model back would bring marine jp whoring back. And without reasonable counters and the new shotgun they can just crush all your hives with closed eyes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you not read any of the points? Yes, some were there in 1.04... I.e. OCs, Spikes, Umbra, Spores... But they have been improved greatly in 2.0!!
<!--QuoteBegin--CaL_FiN+Aug 27 2003, 04:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CaL_FiN @ Aug 27 2003, 04:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Jaml+Aug 27 2003, 03:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jaml @ Aug 27 2003, 03:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Listen. In 1.04 we had nearly all of the above listed counters plus acid rocket at hive 2. JPs were still way overpowered. They flew in and dropped a hive in about 30 secs. They didn´t even gave you the time to react. And often there were lerks and gorges to defend. But the jper still prevailed because of the 1.04 flight model. health spraying? I will see that against a jp/hmg guy in 1.04. Youre sooo dead if he has near decent aim. Anything below a fade dies in seconds and fades now have no acid rocket anymore. So bringing the old flight model back would bring marine jp whoring back. And without reasonable counters and the new shotgun they can just crush all your hives with closed eyes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you not read any of the points? Yes, some were there in 1.04... I.e. OCs, Spikes, Umbra, Spores... But they have been improved greatly in 2.0!! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well lets take a look. Umbra was nerfed. Spikes got nerfed. Acid moved to hive 3 and got nerfed. The only thing that improved are OC. But its the same because in 1.04 you had more oc with less accuracy and now you have less OC with more accuracy. Jut get it in your heads that gorges do not have the res anymore to build wols of 8 oc and 4 dc like in 1.04. The new res model just doesn´t allows for such high expenses anymore.
If you are that smart when it comes to killing jp´s then where have you been when in 1.04 the jp´s owned the aliens over and over again. Oh i forgot. You were playing marines and now cry cause they lost their favorite toy the jetpack of invincibility with a +3 lameness bonus against alien lifeforms.
Jaml, Umbra is currently the same as 1.04, spikes are also the same and guess what? so are acid rockets! (Except that they're hive 3). Oc's are currently deadly against jetpackers (Infact so deadly that flayra is toning them down a bit in 2.01d) and they cost less than in 1.04 so I would say that its perfectly possible to defend with them - especially when you consider that you only need between 4-6 in each hive to cover pretty much anywhere a marine could land.
Jetpacks dont need putting back to the 1.04 level, but they need returning to the 1.04 flight model and the fuel consumption needs to be increased a little so that some hovering *is* actually possible, but just not infinite hovering.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mercior+Aug 27 2003, 04:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mercior @ Aug 27 2003, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jaml, Umbra is currently the same as 1.04, spikes are also the same and guess what? so are acid rockets! (Except that they're hive 3). Oc's are currently deadly against jetpackers (Infact so deadly that flayra is toning them down a bit in 2.01d) and they cost less than in 1.04 so I would say that its perfectly possible to defend with them - especially when you consider that you only need between 4-6 in each hive to cover pretty much anywhere a marine could land.
Jetpacks dont need putting back to the 1.04 level, but they need returning to the 1.04 flight model and the fuel consumption needs to be increased a little so that some hovering *is* actually possible, but just not infinite hovering. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1.)Umbra lasted around double as long as now. 2.)Spikes did 18 damage now they do 16 3.)Acid rockets did more damage greater splash damagage and were a hive 2 ability.
JPs just need to be cheaper. If you make them better its over for the aliens.
Comments
from a concorde to a skippyball is nerfed, even if it was the idea right.
And then coil replies that it hasnt even been changed a bit ( So are you saying the programmer did a bad job is that it? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> j/k )
I can get used to jp as it is now, I just wished I wouldn't have loved it so much b4 <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I might suggest putting JP research on the advanced armory table, whereas when you upgrade to advanced armory, you can then research JPs from there. Also, I would like to see a cost reduction in research and JP cost. Maybe down to the 1.04 levels (25/9), or maybe even slightly less (20/7 maybe?).
HA rushing is just gunna get linear <b>fast</b>, 100% of games I have played HA has been researched first... Please bring some fun back and improve the jetpack. I doubt very much that you would see a jetpack in a clan game now.
I think you're all too worried that improving the jetpack will make another 1.04, which is completely wrong.
Personally I try to research JP's whenever possible. I find often HA is not nessecary as with marines you either dominate from the start or lose. As such I find if (on a rare occasion) I am comming a winning marine side JP's are harmless fun. They improve your marines a little and aren't as annoying to aliens.
If however we are in a tight spot and the next upgrade is make or break them I [b]always[/] go HA.
I definately think JP's need cost reduction/improvement, what's more I didn't like JP/HMG rushes! I don't want them back to 1.04 standard but atm they are a bit of a joke. They really are as warpzome says "Jetpack-was-intended-as-a-fun-gimick..." when at their current cost they should be ALOT more.
Note that every (or nearly-every) hive has a small gap on top, where when crouched, OCs generally will be unable to hit you. Now, with level 3 weapons, it takes around thirty shotgun bullets to kill a hive. So with three+ marines, the skulks will still be miles away by the time the hive goes splat. Send two groups off to two seperate hives, and you can pull victory away from the aliens in one swoop. Sure, they require a bit of medpack spam from the commander, but I believe that they're still deadly. And possibly still overpowered. ;P
It's espiecally fun when the aliens are mostly Onos. By the time they've finished arguing about who should devolve to Skulk, they'll be down at least two hives. ;D
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was already doing this... I guess it's an old habit from playing Tribes...
My $.02 is that the JP is fine. I always thought the infinite jetpacking around in 1.04 was a bit ridiculous, and as an alien it was downright frustrating.
also, more open, high ceilinged rooms in the maps would help alot. 90% of the areas in NS are very JP unfriendly (its not as bad for lerks since they can at least maneuver excellently if they are skilled), at least i know i have no trouble goring/devouring JPrines as an onos in all hallways and most rooms, as JPers are very commonly either restricted by low celilings or 'caught' on obstacles on the ceiling, like rafters.
Or to justify its well....uselessness, you'll have to drop the price
But I don't gt why people are saying the JP is bad,I practised with it and could fly as much as I wanted (except of course the fuel won't let me hovar forever),you just need to press the spacebar before you start falling,or prepare for some major fuel loss
So basically, you want a great piece of gameplay forever gone just because you have bitter memories? Listen, 1.04 jetpacks as an alien were frustrating for the following reasons:
1) They came way too early.
2) Aliens were stuck as skulks against them 95% of the time (see reason 1)
3) Marines owned the early game hard, and therefore could tech straight to them with no ill consequences. (cause of reason 1)
All these problems are gone. So why are jetpacks so nerfed? Can you honestly say that you wouldn't want to try 1.04 jetpacks in 2.0 with all the improvements aliens received? You wouldn't have dumb OCs that miss the jetpackers 99% of the time. You would have aimbotting OCs that hit them 99% of the time. You would have lerks. You would probably also have fades (no acid rockets probably, I know, but you could blink up in the air and swat them out of the sky.)
I would personally be thrilled to have the old jetpacks in the 2.0 environment, both to use them and to face them as an alien. It would be fun.
1) cheaper
2) untie the protolab from the AA and tie it to the HA upgrade directly
3) improve useability
I personally think doing 3) would do it to improve gameplay, but the likelyhood of that happening is like nothing. 2) would serve to only make the marine tech tree more linear than it already is. #1 would make people at least make people consider it. If the old JPs were restored with some fixes, then the marine tech tree would actually branch off into two areas: mobility or power.
I really don't care if the JP were intended as jumpjets. 'Cause it really isn't all that fun or useful.
JP counters:
1) OCs
2) Spore
3) Spikes
4) Leap
5) Blink
6) 2 minute Hive
7) Umbra
8) Gore
9) Spit(!)
10) Healing spray
11) Devour
Just a few off the top of my head...
Who said that an <b>improvement</b> is taking them back to 1.04 levels? There was a concept invented in 1856 called 'compromise' this means 'taking the middle ground'.
I'm not sure that in 2.0 a 1.04 JP would be easily countered. However currently it is quite poor, I actually practised quite alot with the JP but aliens can block large areas with just 2-3 OC's spread out. Not to mention the fact that they are v.poor as an onos counter.
Perhaps a 1.04 JP that isn't fps dependent and only gets fuel on the ground? IMHO the main problem with the 1.04 JP was you never had to land I never thought thrust was an issue.
It's not supposed to make you a human lerk. One that hov<b>e</b>rs without... flapping...
It's a getaway tool and a tool to get to placed you couldn't get before.
It works perfect for me when I have an LMg and a jetpack on my back, see 3-4 skulks ahead of me, fire as many rounds I got, jump up and behind them, then fire the rest of it and kill them all (usually reloading in the air first, but who got time for that).
And it works wonders getting on top of hives (or in the corner like in The Great Viaduct on that... map... man, I got to learn the names of these maps. After a year I still don't remember them <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ).
But I think they should becone a little bit cheaper. Maybe at least 5 less resources.
1) OCs
2) Spore
3) Spikes
4) Leap
5) Blink
6) 2 minute Hive
7) Umbra
8) Gore
9) Spit(!)
10) Healing spray
11) Devour <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1.)OC only usefu if they have line of sight. There are plenty of spots where they dont hit you. And they are too expensive to be thrown around the hive.
2.) Spores are too weak. With comm support you can shotgun a hive easily under a spore cloud. You just need a health pack now and then.
3.)Spikes. Do you know how hard it is to down a jp´er with spikes while he unloads a hmg/shottie clip at you. Lerks are weak and you need higher lifeforms to fight a good jp´er but they cannot reach him until he lands.
4.)Leap lol. Try to hit a 1.04 jper who knows how to fly with leap. don´t be ridiculous
5.)Look above.
6.)No new anti jp abilities gained with a 2. hive.
7.) too short too small to cover the entire hive.
8.) do you have ever seen a 1.04 jper? he never touches ground. no chance to land a gore hit
9.) Spit isn´t hitscan. Can easily be doged. We are talking about 1.04 jps where you can zip around a hive like a fly on crack.
10.) lol yeah right.
11.)to devour him he must come down first. with 1.04 he never has to land or he could just fly into a vent. Flying is soo easy in 1.04. Now its much better. As soon as you release the jump button once there is no way to go up again before paying the onos below you a short visit.
1) JPs are fine the way they are.
2) However, for their current use, they are FAR too overpriced. They simply cannot match up beside HA with the current price tag. I mean, 5 more res and you've got HA, why waste it on a JP that isn't all that great for it's cost anyway?
3) Making them available at the same time is a joke. Having just HA become available at same time as adv. armory seems interesting. You get big guns at the same time as nice armor. JPs should be linked to the obs or something, since their primary use is recon.
Also, make the fuel consumption slightly higher (so you'll run out of fuel faster) and make it recharge slightly faster too. However, you can only recharge when you're on the ground. This would mean that you'd have jetpacks with 1.04 type maneuverability, but they would be forced to land for a while when they run out of fuel. This would then make them vunerable to alien melee attacks.
Currently, you are forced to land too often with 2.0 jetpacks, even when you have plenty of fuel. This is because a big weapon weights you down too much. This means that it's easy for anything to get you, because you spend more time on the ground than in the air. If you didn't have to land as often, but when you did you had to wait to recharge for a longer time, I think it would be perfect.
When they said they were going to nerf the JP rush, I'm sure everyone was in favor of doing it. I'm sure they didn't expect them to make the JP useless AND put it ridiculously high in the tech tree AND cost way more. I just thought they would make fuel limitted enough and JP not come into the game too early.
Counter against Onos? heh... unless you guys are playing on some weird servers.. my onos counter is shotguns. About the best a JP does against an onos is allow you to being a floating meal, rather than a walking one. I actually haven't seen a lone onos in a while.. it's almost suicidal as an onos to run out without a lerk as an umbra buddy.. and lerks are pretty much the JP counter.
Deep down inside of us all we were all glad to see that 1.04 JP go.
you realise that healing spray covers nearly a whole room right? it's nearly impossible to miss with it. In 1.04 I've been in a few (rare) games where a JP rush was countered by mass gorging, everyone switched to heal spray and attacked the JPer.. downed in seconds.
Of course this was with a few OCs in the hive, so making the JPer stand still for the com to medpack isn't exactly the brightest idea.
Anyway, I'm gonna reply to you just for fun:
1) Currently, if the OC sees you it can hit you.
2) Exactly, forcing them down. :\
3) So you say it's not a counter cause you can't aim?
4) Same as 3
5) Same as 3
6) Leap is gained and so is umbra
7) Man now I know you don't even play this game. You don't need to be "covered" just IN it.
8) Where are talking about 2.0...
9) See man. We are not even on the same page. Why am I replying
10) read other guys post. Point in general direction. GG
11) Exactly what he must do every 5 seconds...
Anyway, I don't really care what improvement is made. Just something. It has too much going against it. Being available at the same time as HA made sense in 1.0, but in 2.0 it's like picking between a berry or a melon. I also hate how it works in halls...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Deep down inside of us all we were all glad to see that 1.04 JP go. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course... but it left an ugly child behind...
1) OCs
2) Spore
3) Spikes
4) Leap
5) Blink
6) 2 minute Hive
7) Umbra
8) Gore
9) Spit(!)
10) Healing spray
11) Devour <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1.)OC only usefu if they have line of sight. There are plenty of spots where they dont hit you. And they are too expensive to be thrown around the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
10 res to build an OC and you start with 25 res? Currently you don't even need to defend a hive until you see HA when you have 2+ hives. OCs are super accurate too. OCs + aliens attacking you = problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2.) Spores are too weak. With comm support you can shotgun a hive easily under a spore cloud. You just need a health pack now and then.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spores may be quite weak, but if the Lerk is clever, he can spore the corridors/vents the jper is using... He can also combine this with spikes and umbra.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3.)Spikes. Do you know how hard it is to down a jp´er with spikes while he unloads a hmg/shottie clip at you. Lerks are weak and you need higher lifeforms to fight a good jp´er but they cannot reach him until he lands.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spikes are fantastic!!! If you get shot and don't move then it's your own fault. If he is going after the hive you can get him more easily. Do you know it takes 9 spikes to kill a marine without upgrades? Combinded with spores/umbra/primal scream makes the Lerk lethal lethal. What more, is that the Lerk is a long range fighter. Two or more Lerks and JPers have no chance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4.)Leap lol. Try to hit a 1.04 jper who knows how to fly with leap. don´t be ridiculous<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you ever heard of leap and bite? This was how most JP rushes were foiled.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5.)Look above.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blink would work by being able to get into vents and attack the JPers in there. It would be very hard to use it in the above scenario though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->6.)No new anti jp abilities gained with a 2. hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you use your brain you can use any of the abilities to catch out JPers... Hiding in vents/hallways etc.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->7.) too short too small to cover the entire hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What has already been said. This also gives cover for you/teammates to take down jetpackers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->8.) do you have ever seen a 1.04 jper? he never touches ground. no chance to land a gore hit<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, waiting in corridors... Even better with cloaking.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->9.) Spit isn´t hitscan. Can easily be doged. We are talking about 1.04 jps where you can zip around a hive like a fly on crack.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It causes more damage, but as you said it would be hard to hit a JPer. Combined with other aliens attacking could be more dangerous.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->10.) lol yeah right.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What has been said. Probably not that helpful really.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->11.)to devour him he must come down first. with 1.04 he never has to land or he could just fly into a vent. Flying is soo easy in 1.04. Now its much better. As soon as you release the jump button once there is no way to go up again before paying the onos below you a short visit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See my point in 8.
People are too paranoid that the JP would become another 1.04. This will never happen if JPs tech time and cost was fixed.
With all the additions HA gets, what is the point in JPs? Why don't JPs get light armour instead of HA? JPs are a really fun addition to the marine team but at the moment the just frustrate a lot of people, <b>if they are ever researched</b>.
Have you not read any of the points? Yes, some were there in 1.04... I.e. OCs, Spikes, Umbra, Spores... But they have been improved greatly in 2.0!!
Have you not read any of the points? Yes, some were there in 1.04... I.e. OCs, Spikes, Umbra, Spores... But they have been improved greatly in 2.0!! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well lets take a look. Umbra was nerfed. Spikes got nerfed. Acid moved to hive 3 and got nerfed. The only thing that improved are OC. But its the same because in 1.04 you had more oc with less accuracy and now you have less OC with more accuracy. Jut get it in your heads that gorges do not have the res anymore to build wols of 8 oc and 4 dc like in 1.04. The new res model just doesn´t allows for such high expenses anymore.
If you are that smart when it comes to killing jp´s then where have you been when in 1.04 the jp´s owned the aliens over and over again. Oh i forgot. You were playing marines and now cry cause they lost their favorite toy the jetpack of invincibility with a +3 lameness bonus against alien lifeforms.
Jetpacks dont need putting back to the 1.04 level, but they need returning to the 1.04 flight model and the fuel consumption needs to be increased a little so that some hovering *is* actually possible, but just not infinite hovering.
Jetpacks dont need putting back to the 1.04 level, but they need returning to the 1.04 flight model and the fuel consumption needs to be increased a little so that some hovering *is* actually possible, but just not infinite hovering. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1.)Umbra lasted around double as long as now.
2.)Spikes did 18 damage now they do 16
3.)Acid rockets did more damage greater splash damagage and were a hive 2 ability.
JPs just need to be cheaper. If you make them better its over for the aliens.