Quiet simpley if I did that I'd have to include the IP cost, armory cost, observitory cost, and all the other 'costs' associated with a marine team getting their tech, which by the way, is still more than the cost of a single fade. Even when adding the costs of the stuff you did.
<!--QuoteBegin--Alpha_1_SLS+Aug 27 2003, 03:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alpha_1_SLS @ Aug 27 2003, 03:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Finch,
Quiet simpley if I did that I'd have to include the IP cost, armory cost, observitory cost, and all the other 'costs' associated with a marine team getting their tech, which by the way, is still more than the cost of a single fade. Even when adding the costs of the stuff you did. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you know that the IP is the only structure NOT required to research anything? The only thing it does is spawn marines, which is highly important.
- They're only good up close, at range they suck (no matter what you say, the spread is tremendous). - They actually cost res, unlike LMG/pistol - They can't kill a Fade in 1 shot. Hardly in 2. Usually it takes 3, which takes time enough for any half-decent Fade to either kill you or blink away.
I would say a HMG is twice as good as a shotgun at least, except against structures of course. The damage deal-out is bigger (1 clip = 2500 damage at lvl0) and the range is awesome in comparison. HMG's redeem and kills cows with ease. Shotgunners get gored while jumping around trying. With an HMG, the cow won't even make it halfway down the corridor.
I hand out HMG's to the most skilled, GL's to the trustworthy and shotguns to the rest. Makes for a good all-round squad.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->in mid game, skulks cant do jack **** against them especially against jp/shotty. I know its changing to 8/40 clip but that wont change much.
-there strogner than hmgs -ha trains of them destroy everything -demolish onos in seconds -they are 10 res.... -even more deadly with motion tracking -its extremly hard to miss and dodge -shotgun rush is nearly impossible to stop unexpectedly -lvl 3 shotgun kills fade in 1 direct hit<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me ask you this: Why do the marines have jetpacks, heavy armor, MT, and level 3 guns and you have skulks still? If they have all that crap, you obviously failed to deny them resources.
Against late game heavy trains with shotties, stomp them as you run in, devour one, and run out while throwing down some stomps.
Against shotty rushes, ambush them along the way to your hive, and get one or two smart lerks out to gas and spike them from a range that their shotties are ineffective from.
Against JP/shotguns, lerk them down with spores and spikes. Offense Chambers are awesome against jetpackers as well.
Shotguns are definately not inbalanced. They are powerful, but they are meant to be.
Hmm...as you know, aliens win 75% of the time in general due to them being overpowered atm...
The pub servers that I play on constantly sees alien wins over and over again. But then there are times when a player gets on and takes the comchair and goes for a shotgun rush tactic. It's an overkill. I don't say it's impossible to stop a shotgun rush but it's way too difficult IMO. I guess it's nice to have a variety from constant alien wins <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> but it does get a bit frustration to play several games one after another as an alien and go against constant shotgun rushes. It's like trying to go against a tsunami. And I'm now talking about marines not having HA's...once they DO get HA's (whether aliens now have all the res points and all hives and a dozen onoses going) only God would have the power to do something about them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Untitled+Aug 26 2003, 11:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Untitled @ Aug 26 2003, 11:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Cry Havoc+Aug 26 2003, 11:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cry Havoc @ Aug 26 2003, 11:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Untitled+Aug 26 2003, 10:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Untitled @ Aug 26 2003, 10:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You expect a vanilla skulk to have an advantage over a marine who just had ten res spent on them? Even fully upgraded skulks (6 res) should be owned by shotty equipped marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the amount of res spent is your basis for what should kill what then why should 10 res be able to kill dozens of upgraded skulks?
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And vice versa.
A fully upgraded skulk would own dozens of vanilla marines, no sweat. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And you have not put into the factor that skulks are the earliest and lowest forms of evolution on the alien side. Would it not make sense that a shotty marine would have no prob slaying wave after wave of skulks? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wrote "upgraded skulks." Like you mentioned, those can costs upwards of 6 res. So it would not make sense for a shotgun to take out waves of those, if "res spent determines what prevails" is what you go by.
Basically, its easy killing with a fade cause you spend 50 res getting good...
50 res on a marine turns it into a HMG/HA marine...GL fade...
A shotgun costs 10 res, which is less than most, its kills ALL skulks, all except Acid Fades, ALL gorges(no OCs) and most lerks, since shooting from far enough away is difficult in most places. Onoses can be killed by two SGers...
my personal tactic is to wait up high outside the base for a rambo to wonder out. if i have Silence or i hold shift, i can get behind him without him knowing too soon.
not enuff people make use of the wallwalk IMO. it's why i prefer skulk to even the higher forms
This is the discussion board, ppl are just discussing the 2.0 shotgun. it may be sorted for 2.1 but there is no harm in discussing the shotty in 2.0 we dont have 2.1 yet.
anyway, with celerity i have killed 2 shottys with skulk then another that ran to pick up one of the droped shottys. still I would have counted that more on luck than anythin else.
i played a 2.0 game the other day as marines, we had 1 hive and double res. they had **** redem onos that unless u lucky are near invinsable. i dunno what happned, they attacked double res for abit and they could have had us but they buggered off to get the hive we had. ppl still seem to think of hives more important than res still, if they continued on d res they would have won easy. anyway we slowly teched up and kept them away. we all got HA/shottys and it was over. 2 times an onos stomped me and hit me a few times, when i could attack he redem in a few shots. we went for a hive but most of the aliens left and it finished there.
alot of ppl seem to refer to shottys on there own and really that seems to be what u get in a game, but when u get a grp of 2+ marines with shottys they are very deadly. more deadly than 2 hmgs by far. thats only 2 but like any game should be if u have most of ur team going on assault with all shottys no onos or anything else is gonner stop u.
Frankly if some Noob is dumb enough to charge me while I have a shotgun, they deserved to get their **** blown away. People, skulks are able to climb walls and navigate vents for a reason. THEY ARE A STEALTHY HIT-AND-RUN CLASS! Not something designed for stand-up one on one matches against marines with plenty of ammo. If you want to do that, save to become and Onos.
I've tried skulks both ways. A full-frontal charge only works when a half-dozen of your buddies are with you and sometimes not even then. It doesn't matter what the marines are armed with or what kind of upgrades they have. However, I cannot tell you how many marines I've nailed and how many skulks nailed me as a marine by using their small size and their ability to cling to walls to execute surprise hit-and-run assaults.
I remember this one time in the mine map, I was hiding in the shadows as a skulk just waiting for some poor bozo to come along. Finally one did. He noticed something in the shadows, but rather than shoot first and ask questions later, he decided to have a closer look. He face got ripped off as a result. Yeah. His upgrades really helped right then. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
In most mid games (even in scrims) the thing comms almost always do when the aliens have 2 hives is hand out shottys and tell everyone to rush it. if the hive is wide open (like it usually is) say goodbye to it. This WORKS almost all the time.
and answer this, in a clan vs clan game everyone goes to cap a res except maybe 1-2 skulks while your all gorges capping your happy res nodes. you will notice 7 marines in a straight line running for your hive with shotguns. what exactly will you do? not everyone can go skulk in time so its very rare that this is stoped. sure its lame and the people that do it know too but all clanners care about is winning..
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited August 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--zerg_queen+Aug 26 2003, 04:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zerg_queen @ Aug 26 2003, 04:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -there strogner than hmgs -ha trains of them destroy everything -demolish onos in seconds -shotgun rush is nearly impossible to stop unexpectedly -lvl 3 shotgun kills fade in 1 direct hit <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think shotgun is fine, especially with a smaller clip. - not stronger than hmgs vs units(only vs buildings) - HA trains are marines highest tech, if theyve got HA you've either already lost or you should be prepared to take them - an onos can go down fast if he doesnt know what hes doing, i guess. But he'd go down faster to an HMG - Any large rush with multiple marines is hard to stop if you dont expect it, even lmgs =\ - 1 Direct lvl 3 shotgun blast does 220 damage, that is not enough to kill a fade in 1 hit.
And as for the comment "Flay knows," what does that mean? He lowered the clip to 8/40 but afaik he doesnt think that the shotgun is a huge problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--zerg_queen+Aug 27 2003, 11:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zerg_queen @ Aug 27 2003, 11:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In most mid games (even in scrims) the thing comms almost always do when the aliens have 2 hives is hand out shottys and tell everyone to rush it. if the hive is wide open (like it usually is) say goodbye to it. This WORKS almost all the time.
and answer this, in a clan vs clan game everyone goes to cap a res except maybe 1-2 skulks while your all gorges capping your happy res nodes. you will notice 7 marines in a straight line running for your hive with shotguns. what exactly will you do? not everyone can go skulk in time so its very rare that this is stoped. sure its lame and the people that do it know too but all clanners care about is winning.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OMG zerg_queen you seem to have a very biased opinion as to what is 'lame'.
Marine rushes are only as powerful as alien rushes except because they are rare people think they are 'lame'. How many games end after 2 mins due to a base skulk rush? A much higher percentage than those that end with a Shotgun rush.
If the aliens leave a hive open and its get's a shotty rush it gets called lame, conversely when a marine team leaves the base open people have no ethical problems at all with rushing that. People have to realise they took a risk by not defending the hive. They all went lerk/fade/onos/expanded too quickly rather than defending. These double standards amplifies the imbalances alot!
Same with some people saying JP's are good enough because they saw a JP/SG take out 3 hives when they were all onos so couldn't get him. In 1.04 is was standard practice for an alien team to place OC's around (and ON with a skulk that evolves on top) the hive. In 2.0 less OC's are required AND JP's have been nerfed.
Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant...(And it's not all directed at Zerg_queen)
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>THE RULES TO SOLUTION POSTING!</span></span>
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Rule 1) Am I looking at this from the other teams POV Rule 2) What would be a solution that is very minor to make and will have zero impact on other things.</span>
If you feel the SG isn't balanced, think of a solution the follows these 2 rules, if you can't then don't bother posting it!
"I've tried skulks both ways. A full-frontal charge only works when a half-dozen of your buddies are with you and sometimes not even then. It doesn't matter what the marines are armed with or what kind of upgrades they have. "
Somewhere I have a screenshot of someone shotgunning 5 skulks in a row, as they all ran straight at him.
Personally, I think the Shotgun needs to be toned down - and it's my favourite weapon, on my favourite side. Seriously, you can say "It's bad at range" but how many times is that going to matter? Most of the levels are CORRIDORS which happen to be narrow AND short. When you're taking out Oni in 4 sgun shots, something isn't right. When two Oni wont enter a room because four marines have shotguns, something isn't right.
Now scream "You are teh nub OMG git betar learn teh game OMG" I already said I like the shotgun, and I happen to do bizarrely well with it. That said, I do FAR better than I should, because it is just too easy. It IS being tweaked, but only in terms of chambered rounds. It needs to either do Light damage, which is weird but may have the desired effect, or cost more.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shotguns may be there in middle game but then they will tech into HMG and then you have an even bigger problem...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true... As a skulk I have at least 3-4 seconds to live against a HMG'er with a shotgun I have 1.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you tried killing something at long range with a shotgun? HAH, good luck
They are only good for short range stuff and pretty balanced IMO<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but against skulks or fades (melee aliens)<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> These are aliens that have to get in close.....
So those are the situations when SG's make sense. But they are a "little" 5-10 points too powerful... If it could almost kill a skulk in a single shot.. then at least you'd stand a chance to bite/get away.....
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--zerg_queen+Aug 27 2003, 12:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zerg_queen @ Aug 27 2003, 12:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and answer this, in a clan vs clan game everyone goes to cap a res except maybe 1-2 skulks while your all gorges capping your happy res nodes. you will notice 7 marines in a straight line running for your hive with shotguns. what exactly will you do? not everyone can go skulk in time so its very rare that this is stoped. sure its lame and the people that do it know too but all clanners care about is winning.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see anything wrong with that. Rush beats expand.
Zerg Queen is right... I have seen nothing more cheap than a shotgun rush. Anyone who begs to differ on the nature of how strong the shotgun is, you sir are a ****. Think back to good ole 1.04, was the shotgun this **** powerful? I ask myself the same questions everytime I play NS, "what the hell was the necessity of editing this..."
Lowering the clip did nothing, and its not even a substantial decrease, (2) out of (10) and (40) out of (50). Please! It only takes 1 lucky shot of spray to take down a skulk no problem. Onos!? You are one crazy **** to challenge 2-3 Marines with Shotties. There are some simple ways to deal with shotguns and as you've all seen and can probably atest too, shotguns aren't invincible because of the flesh holding it. I find it easy to at the very least get 1-2 bites on a shotgunned marine by ambushing him with teammates but all it takes for me to fall is 1 shot. Easy counter to the shotgun is the range, you get some where high from that shotgun and they can hardly touch you, but thats not to say how high is good enough.
Rate of fire, and spread of bullet are the biggest concerns to the shotgun. Don't be ripping on zerg_queen any longer... I read most of them and they're so ignorant.
Hmmm.....how many offense chambers? Because if a group of 5 shotty marines gets close to a bunch of 5 OCs, those OCs get shredded like cheese with a little medspam thrown in. OCs on the other side of a large room is one of 2 counters to a shotgun rush, since there simply isn't enough res available for aliens to get much else.
I think that the best evidence that something needs to be done about the shotgun is that I've noticed less and less use of HMGs on the various servers as people figure out that shotguns are a better all-purpose weapon. They cost less than half as much, but are more than half as effective. Theoretical analysis based on cost and how many hits it takes to kill something is one thing. But play will naturally evolve in the direction of least resistance. And buying shotguns for the marines instead of HMGs provides the easiest path to victory, apparently.
I make the same argument about this as I did about the HMG before it became "piercing" damage, but to a lesser degree: single weapon strats suck. The commander should have to make strategic decisions about which weapons to drop and when. The HMG nerf did wonders to make GL and shotty viable. Now a little extra tweaking to put the shotty in its rightful place as a lower-tier weapon, and it'll be perfect. We'll see how the clip changes affect things, but I'm not certain it'll really do the trick so long as you can take down six skulks in six seconds with a shotgun.
okok, if we take away the shotgun the marines will be utterly crippled, like. I have seen so many threads complaining aobut how the aliens are owerpowered in many, many more ways than marines. You know ... Both teams have its benifits, if you take benifits away you get an even duller game.
And yeah, it is not very hard to take a shotgunenr, and if you have an HA shotty train ... well, you had it coming if you let the marines make such a train, now hadn't you?
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Mr.KNifey+Aug 27 2003, 04:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.KNifey @ Aug 27 2003, 04:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hmmm.....how many offense chambers? Because if a group of 5 shotty marines gets close to a bunch of 5 OCs, those OCs get shredded like cheese with a little medspam thrown in. OCs on the other side of a large room is one of 2 counters to a shotgun rush, since there simply isn't enough res available for aliens to get much else.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> At a distance, for maximum effectiveness, but they can still be effective at close range if several aliens are supporting them.
With no med spam, it is relatively easy to parasite a SGer to death with an upgraded skulk (regen) just stay away.
and: <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>IF A SHOTGUN RUSH IS LAME SO IS ANY ALIEN BASE RUSH!!!</span>
but people don't think alien base rushes are lame, well I do when an alien team does one and I am comming. I'm sorry but if you think 1 type of rush is lame they all are...
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--zerg_queen+Aug 27 2003, 11:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zerg_queen @ Aug 27 2003, 11:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and answer this, in a clan vs clan game everyone goes to cap a res except maybe 1-2 skulks while your all gorges capping your happy res nodes. you will notice 7 marines in a straight line running for your hive with shotguns. what exactly will you do? not everyone can go skulk in time so its very rare that this is stoped. sure its lame and the people that do it know too but all clanners care about is winning.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Its not lame at all, they are doing the perfect counter to what you are doing, stop expanding so quickly! In starcraft ZvP you could early expand but the protoss would always send his first zealot and probes to attack your expansion and if you werent fast enough or he was better than you you would probably lose your expansion(and end up losing the whole game). You are trying to expand way too fast and as a result are left open for the rush. Stop expanding so quickly(our team only uses 2 gorges until the hive is dropped, then we have 3).
Comments
Quiet simpley if I did that I'd have to include the IP cost, armory cost, observitory cost, and all the other 'costs' associated with a marine team getting their tech, which by the way, is still more than the cost of a single fade. Even when adding the costs of the stuff you did.
Quiet simpley if I did that I'd have to include the IP cost, armory cost, observitory cost, and all the other 'costs' associated with a marine team getting their tech, which by the way, is still more than the cost of a single fade. Even when adding the costs of the stuff you did. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you know that the IP is the only structure NOT required to research anything? The only thing it does is spawn marines, which is highly important.
- They're only good up close, at range they suck (no matter what you say, the spread is tremendous).
- They actually cost res, unlike LMG/pistol
- They can't kill a Fade in 1 shot. Hardly in 2. Usually it takes 3, which takes time enough for any half-decent Fade to either kill you or blink away.
I would say a HMG is twice as good as a shotgun at least, except against structures of course. The damage deal-out is bigger (1 clip = 2500 damage at lvl0) and the range is awesome in comparison. HMG's redeem and kills cows with ease. Shotgunners get gored while jumping around trying. With an HMG, the cow won't even make it halfway down the corridor.
I hand out HMG's to the most skilled, GL's to the trustworthy and shotguns to the rest. Makes for a good all-round squad.
-there strogner than hmgs
-ha trains of them destroy everything
-demolish onos in seconds
-they are 10 res....
-even more deadly with motion tracking
-its extremly hard to miss and dodge
-shotgun rush is nearly impossible to stop unexpectedly
-lvl 3 shotgun kills fade in 1 direct hit<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me ask you this: Why do the marines have jetpacks, heavy armor, MT, and level 3 guns and you have skulks still? If they have all that crap, you obviously failed to deny them resources.
Against late game heavy trains with shotties, stomp them as you run in, devour one, and run out while throwing down some stomps.
Against shotty rushes, ambush them along the way to your hive, and get one or two smart lerks out to gas and spike them from a range that their shotties are ineffective from.
Against JP/shotguns, lerk them down with spores and spikes. Offense Chambers are awesome against jetpackers as well.
Shotguns are definately not inbalanced. They are powerful, but they are meant to be.
The pub servers that I play on constantly sees alien wins over and over again. But then there are times when a player gets on and takes the comchair and goes for a shotgun rush tactic. It's an overkill. I don't say it's impossible to stop a shotgun rush but it's way too difficult IMO. I guess it's nice to have a variety from constant alien wins <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> but it does get a bit frustration to play several games one after another as an alien and go against constant shotgun rushes. It's like trying to go against a tsunami. And I'm now talking about marines not having HA's...once they DO get HA's (whether aliens now have all the res points and all hives and a dozen onoses going) only God would have the power to do something about them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Shotty sees fade
Fade blinks into his face
One blast goes off
Fade starts swiping
Shotty dies
Of course if the fade is trying to kill the shotty marine by WALKING......
Shotty.Hmm.This thing might be a little overpowered.Not sure how to fix it though.
If the amount of res spent is your basis for what should kill what then why should 10 res be able to kill dozens of upgraded skulks?
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And vice versa.
A fully upgraded skulk would own dozens of vanilla marines, no sweat. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And you have not put into the factor that skulks are the earliest and lowest forms of evolution on the alien side. Would it not make sense that a shotty marine would have no prob slaying wave after wave of skulks?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wrote "upgraded skulks." Like you mentioned, those can costs upwards of 6 res. So it would not make sense for a shotgun to take out waves of those, if "res spent determines what prevails" is what you go by.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
..As silly a measure as it is.
"I like to keep this handy.."
Chak-CHAK!
"..for close encounters."
50 res on a marine turns it into a HMG/HA marine...GL fade...
A shotgun costs 10 res, which is less than most, its kills ALL skulks, all except Acid Fades, ALL gorges(no OCs) and most lerks, since shooting from far enough away is difficult in most places. Onoses can be killed by two SGers...
not enuff people make use of the wallwalk IMO. it's why i prefer skulk to even the higher forms
Edit: Even if they have shotties.
anyway, with celerity i have killed 2 shottys with skulk then another that ran to pick up one of the droped shottys. still I would have counted that more on luck than anythin else.
i played a 2.0 game the other day as marines, we had 1 hive and double res. they had **** redem onos that unless u lucky are near invinsable. i dunno what happned, they attacked double res for abit and they could have had us but they buggered off to get the hive we had. ppl still seem to think of hives more important than res still, if they continued on d res they would have won easy. anyway we slowly teched up and kept them away. we all got HA/shottys and it was over. 2 times an onos stomped me and hit me a few times, when i could attack he redem in a few shots. we went for a hive but most of the aliens left and it finished there.
alot of ppl seem to refer to shottys on there own and really that seems to be what u get in a game, but when u get a grp of 2+ marines with shottys they are very deadly. more deadly than 2 hmgs by far. thats only 2 but like any game should be if u have most of ur team going on assault with all shottys no onos or anything else is gonner stop u.
I've tried skulks both ways. A full-frontal charge only works when a half-dozen of your buddies are with you and sometimes not even then. It doesn't matter what the marines are armed with or what kind of upgrades they have. However, I cannot tell you how many marines I've nailed and how many skulks nailed me as a marine by using their small size and their ability to cling to walls to execute surprise hit-and-run assaults.
I remember this one time in the mine map, I was hiding in the shadows as a skulk just waiting for some poor bozo to come along. Finally one did. He noticed something in the shadows, but rather than shoot first and ask questions later, he decided to have a closer look. He face got ripped off as a result. Yeah. His upgrades really helped right then. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
and answer this, in a clan vs clan game everyone goes to cap a res except maybe 1-2 skulks while your all gorges capping your happy res nodes. you will notice 7 marines in a straight line running for your hive with shotguns. what exactly will you do? not everyone can go skulk in time so its very rare that this is stoped. sure its lame and the people that do it know too but all clanners care about is winning..
-ha trains of them destroy everything
-demolish onos in seconds
-shotgun rush is nearly impossible to stop unexpectedly
-lvl 3 shotgun kills fade in 1 direct hit
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I think shotgun is fine, especially with a smaller clip.
- not stronger than hmgs vs units(only vs buildings)
- HA trains are marines highest tech, if theyve got HA you've either already lost or you should be prepared to take them
- an onos can go down fast if he doesnt know what hes doing, i guess. But he'd go down faster to an HMG
- Any large rush with multiple marines is hard to stop if you dont expect it, even lmgs =\
- 1 Direct lvl 3 shotgun blast does 220 damage, that is not enough to kill a fade in 1 hit.
And as for the comment "Flay knows," what does that mean? He lowered the clip to 8/40 but afaik he doesnt think that the shotgun is a huge problem.
and answer this, in a clan vs clan game everyone goes to cap a res except maybe 1-2 skulks while your all gorges capping your happy res nodes. you will notice 7 marines in a straight line running for your hive with shotguns. what exactly will you do? not everyone can go skulk in time so its very rare that this is stoped. sure its lame and the people that do it know too but all clanners care about is winning.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG zerg_queen you seem to have a very biased opinion as to what is 'lame'.
Marine rushes are only as powerful as alien rushes except because they are rare people think they are 'lame'. How many games end after 2 mins due to a base skulk rush? A much higher percentage than those that end with a Shotgun rush.
If the aliens leave a hive open and its get's a shotty rush it gets called lame, conversely when a marine team leaves the base open people have no ethical problems at all with rushing that. People have to realise they took a risk by not defending the hive. They all went lerk/fade/onos/expanded too quickly rather than defending. These double standards amplifies the imbalances alot!
Same with some people saying JP's are good enough because they saw a JP/SG take out 3 hives when they were all onos so couldn't get him. In 1.04 is was standard practice for an alien team to place OC's around (and ON with a skulk that evolves on top) the hive. In 2.0 less OC's are required AND JP's have been nerfed.
Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant...(And it's not all directed at Zerg_queen)
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Rule 1) Am I looking at this from the other teams POV
Rule 2) What would be a solution that is very minor to make and will have zero impact on other things.</span>
If you feel the SG isn't balanced, think of a solution the follows these 2 rules, if you can't then don't bother posting it!
Somewhere I have a screenshot of someone shotgunning 5 skulks in a row, as they all ran straight at him.
Personally, I think the Shotgun needs to be toned down - and it's my favourite weapon, on my favourite side. Seriously, you can say "It's bad at range" but how many times is that going to matter? Most of the levels are CORRIDORS which happen to be narrow AND short. When you're taking out Oni in 4 sgun shots, something isn't right. When two Oni wont enter a room because four marines have shotguns, something isn't right.
Now scream "You are teh nub OMG git betar learn teh game OMG" I already said I like the shotgun, and I happen to do bizarrely well with it. That said, I do FAR better than I should, because it is just too easy. It IS being tweaked, but only in terms of chambered rounds. It needs to either do Light damage, which is weird but may have the desired effect, or cost more.
Not true... As a skulk I have at least 3-4 seconds to live against a HMG'er with a shotgun I have 1.
They are only good for short range stuff and pretty balanced IMO<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but against skulks or fades (melee aliens)<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> These are aliens that have to get in close.....
So those are the situations when SG's make sense. But they are a "little" 5-10 points too powerful... If it could almost kill a skulk in a single shot.. then at least you'd stand a chance to bite/get away.....
I don't see anything wrong with that. Rush beats expand.
Lowering the clip did nothing, and its not even a substantial decrease, (2) out of (10) and (40) out of (50). Please! It only takes 1 lucky shot of spray to take down a skulk no problem. Onos!? You are one crazy **** to challenge 2-3 Marines with Shotties. There are some simple ways to deal with shotguns and as you've all seen and can probably atest too, shotguns aren't invincible because of the flesh holding it. I find it easy to at the very least get 1-2 bites on a shotgunned marine by ambushing him with teammates but all it takes for me to fall is 1 shot. Easy counter to the shotgun is the range, you get some where high from that shotgun and they can hardly touch you, but thats not to say how high is good enough.
Rate of fire, and spread of bullet are the biggest concerns to the shotgun. Don't be ripping on zerg_queen any longer... I read most of them and they're so ignorant.
I make the same argument about this as I did about the HMG before it became "piercing" damage, but to a lesser degree: single weapon strats suck. The commander should have to make strategic decisions about which weapons to drop and when. The HMG nerf did wonders to make GL and shotty viable. Now a little extra tweaking to put the shotty in its rightful place as a lower-tier weapon, and it'll be perfect. We'll see how the clip changes affect things, but I'm not certain it'll really do the trick so long as you can take down six skulks in six seconds with a shotgun.
And yeah, it is not very hard to take a shotgunenr, and if you have an HA shotty train ... well, you had it coming if you let the marines make such a train, now hadn't you?
At a distance, for maximum effectiveness, but they can still be effective at close range if several aliens are supporting them.
and:
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>IF A SHOTGUN RUSH IS LAME SO IS ANY ALIEN BASE RUSH!!!</span>
but people don't think alien base rushes are lame, well I do when an alien team does one and I am comming. I'm sorry but if you think 1 type of rush is lame they all are...
Its not lame at all, they are doing the perfect counter to what you are doing, stop expanding so quickly! In starcraft ZvP you could early expand but the protoss would always send his first zealot and probes to attack your expansion and if you werent fast enough or he was better than you you would probably lose your expansion(and end up losing the whole game). You are trying to expand way too fast and as a result are left open for the rush. Stop expanding so quickly(our team only uses 2 gorges until the hive is dropped, then we have 3).