Starting To Miss The One-gorge System..
Zek
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Am I the only one?</div> First of all, a disclaimer: this is not a whine. I think 2.0(particularly 2.01d) is great and miles above 1.04 in almost every way. Also, this doesn't have anything to do with balance, I'm talking about the fun factor. Please don't try to explain to me the balance advantages of the res system change because I understand why it was done.
Anyway, in 1.04 I was an avid alien player. I played alien almost exclusively, really only playing pub marines if I knew there was a good comm on the team. I greatly preferred the more unique gameplay and the departure from typical FPS gunshooting, and more importantly I liked not having to pray every game that most of my team would know how to work together and that a good comm would be there in the beginning. I had fun playing pretty much every evolution, including being the dedicated gorge.
Then comes 2.0. Obviously it was a huge overhaul to how the game was played, but I stuck with aliens(the source of my irritation with most marine teams had not changed) and enjoyed the newness for a while. Lately though it's started to seem a little less fun than it was before. I think now that the main thing that is starting to bother me about is is the new gorge system. Obviously the "one gorge only" rule has been thrown out the window and now anyone can gorge when they want to. While it's nice that the choice to use multiple gorges is now an option, it's starting to seem like it was just reversed: instead of being forced to use one gorge, aliens have to use at least a couple in order to compete. The primary things that concern me with this:
1.) Dedicated gorges have become decidedly less entertaining than they use to be. In 1.04 you could be gorge and have a pretty active job basically the entire game after the first couple of minutes since you had a rather large res income. In 2.0, gorges get res very slowly, and on top of that res for kills means that skulks get res considerably faster than a gorge typically can(barring a very large number of O chamber kills). Because of this the balance has been heavily shifted to temp gorging. If you want to be a "dedicated" gorge in the early game, the best path is to spend the majority of your time skulking for res, going gorge until you've spent all your res, and then skulking some more(this is less the case in the late game with more hives and res nodes). I don't know if this is a common sentiment, but the job of 1.04's dedicated gorge used to be much more fun primarily because of the higher res gain.
2.) It's now basically required that aliens have a number of gorges at any given time, especially in the early game where if you don't get at least 2-3 skulks to temp gorge in the beginning to drop nodes then everybody's res slows to a crawl. It just bothers me that so much of the team should be forced to fill the gorge's role; it's such a drag having to gorge every time in 2.0, and it feels like the game is forcing me to do it out of necessity, but I don't enjoy it at all and it saps some of the fun from the alien teams for me. And obviously many other aliens feel the same way too because it's sometimes <u>very</u> difficult to get other people in the team to gorge; it's not fun being forced into the gorge job if you want the team to have any chance at success just because no one else wants to do it. In 1.04 I would have been pretty content just gorging the whole game, but in 2.0 I usually just quit instead.
3.) Aliens have become considerably less pub friendly than they used to be(yes, even though they now have the advantage in 2.0). Many pub players choose personal fun(saving for Onos/Fade, spending lots of res on skulk upgrades) over the team's well-being(temp gorging) and let me tell you, it is EXTREMELY frustrating trying to convince your teammates to contribute to the gorge's job. I am sick and tired of being the only alien to drop more than a single node or chamber or whatever as gorge, and I'm beginning to think that I'd rather just save up for Onos like everybody else than make myself completely sick of NS. Fighting is fun, and gorging is not. As much as it irritates me when no one will gorge, I understand now what they find so repulsive about the concept. And the problems with gorging are much more prevalent in 2.0 than they were in 1.04: in 1.04 you would occasionally have a newbie who refused to degorge, and in 2.0 the majority of alien games suffer from a lack of gorge work to some extent.
Well, that's my rant on the alien res system. As I said, I'm not trying to argue for balance in any way, I'm just venting my grievances at what the alien experience has become. Take it as you will. I play NS considerably less often than I used to and I think this is the primary reason.
Anyway, in 1.04 I was an avid alien player. I played alien almost exclusively, really only playing pub marines if I knew there was a good comm on the team. I greatly preferred the more unique gameplay and the departure from typical FPS gunshooting, and more importantly I liked not having to pray every game that most of my team would know how to work together and that a good comm would be there in the beginning. I had fun playing pretty much every evolution, including being the dedicated gorge.
Then comes 2.0. Obviously it was a huge overhaul to how the game was played, but I stuck with aliens(the source of my irritation with most marine teams had not changed) and enjoyed the newness for a while. Lately though it's started to seem a little less fun than it was before. I think now that the main thing that is starting to bother me about is is the new gorge system. Obviously the "one gorge only" rule has been thrown out the window and now anyone can gorge when they want to. While it's nice that the choice to use multiple gorges is now an option, it's starting to seem like it was just reversed: instead of being forced to use one gorge, aliens have to use at least a couple in order to compete. The primary things that concern me with this:
1.) Dedicated gorges have become decidedly less entertaining than they use to be. In 1.04 you could be gorge and have a pretty active job basically the entire game after the first couple of minutes since you had a rather large res income. In 2.0, gorges get res very slowly, and on top of that res for kills means that skulks get res considerably faster than a gorge typically can(barring a very large number of O chamber kills). Because of this the balance has been heavily shifted to temp gorging. If you want to be a "dedicated" gorge in the early game, the best path is to spend the majority of your time skulking for res, going gorge until you've spent all your res, and then skulking some more(this is less the case in the late game with more hives and res nodes). I don't know if this is a common sentiment, but the job of 1.04's dedicated gorge used to be much more fun primarily because of the higher res gain.
2.) It's now basically required that aliens have a number of gorges at any given time, especially in the early game where if you don't get at least 2-3 skulks to temp gorge in the beginning to drop nodes then everybody's res slows to a crawl. It just bothers me that so much of the team should be forced to fill the gorge's role; it's such a drag having to gorge every time in 2.0, and it feels like the game is forcing me to do it out of necessity, but I don't enjoy it at all and it saps some of the fun from the alien teams for me. And obviously many other aliens feel the same way too because it's sometimes <u>very</u> difficult to get other people in the team to gorge; it's not fun being forced into the gorge job if you want the team to have any chance at success just because no one else wants to do it. In 1.04 I would have been pretty content just gorging the whole game, but in 2.0 I usually just quit instead.
3.) Aliens have become considerably less pub friendly than they used to be(yes, even though they now have the advantage in 2.0). Many pub players choose personal fun(saving for Onos/Fade, spending lots of res on skulk upgrades) over the team's well-being(temp gorging) and let me tell you, it is EXTREMELY frustrating trying to convince your teammates to contribute to the gorge's job. I am sick and tired of being the only alien to drop more than a single node or chamber or whatever as gorge, and I'm beginning to think that I'd rather just save up for Onos like everybody else than make myself completely sick of NS. Fighting is fun, and gorging is not. As much as it irritates me when no one will gorge, I understand now what they find so repulsive about the concept. And the problems with gorging are much more prevalent in 2.0 than they were in 1.04: in 1.04 you would occasionally have a newbie who refused to degorge, and in 2.0 the majority of alien games suffer from a lack of gorge work to some extent.
Well, that's my rant on the alien res system. As I said, I'm not trying to argue for balance in any way, I'm just venting my grievances at what the alien experience has become. Take it as you will. I play NS considerably less often than I used to and I think this is the primary reason.
Comments
The groding of res is the irritating part of this game. People don't seem to be used to the team aproach as an alien. I wsa the only gorge to drop rt's, 2nd hive and some chambers... I threatened to put sensory down for the second hive before someone decided to gorge and put motion.
Second hive up, 3-4 onos show up with redemption + adrenaline... but guess what.. by that time, the marines owned so much res and had everyone with HMA/GL and HA's. The onos's started to drop like flies and we lost the game.. GREAT
4 ocs 3 dcs and 2 mcs on the lift. we all went up and i bb the base. energy didnt go down with mcs and the ocs didnt seem to get dmged with the dcs.
gorge is fun when ur on ure own or only 2-3 ppl on the team.
It requires the Aliens to work more as a team than previously. Basically your point #3 could have all the Alien words replaced with Marine counterparts and it would sound like 90% of the pub marines out there.
Pub Marines has ALWAYS been an exercise in frustration with new players, dumb people and rambo's. Now the Aliens suffer the same problems when one player decides he'd rather save for Onos rather than dropping the few RTs the Aliens need or dropping a new hive or upgrade chambers.
So, basically anything that promotes as much teamplay on the Aliens as is required on the Marines I am all for.
G.I.
Balance issues like this aside, the primary point I'm trying to make is that the way gorging is currently implemented is not fun for a lot of players. The fact that many pubbers will not gorge should be proof of this. If gorging were somehow more enjoyable for most people then maybe the refusal to gorge wouldn't be a problem, or if multiple gorges weren't so necessary then people who don't want to wouldn't have to. Obviously the ideal solution would be if one gorge were as viable as half the team going gorge, but I don't see how that can be done realistically.
If gorging is going to be a mandatory task for most of the team then it should be more fun than it is right now; as it is now not only do players have to sacrifice their own res to drop things for the team, but many of them, myself included, don't seem to particularly enjoy doing so. With 1.04's system building things was somewhat less of a chore because you had the res to do so without so much waiting, and on top of it only one person in the team had to do it so most of the time if someone didn't like gorging they didn't have to.
More and more I feel <i>stuck</i> with the Gorge. Just because I like my team to win, I have to be the teams chamber ****. I like being an Onos. I actually love it, in spite of the travel difficulties. However, in the past 6 games I've played as an alien, I've got to be an Onos once. And the only reason I was an Onos then was because I had dropped 3 MC, a hive, 3 RTs and 2 OCs. Finally I just got sick of carrying the team with my res and went Onos as we were getting owned. Then I got stuck in Ventilation 3-C hive when I redeemed (we were down to one hive and things were bad), couldn't get out and just quit in frustration.
I don't care if I take a hit in the res pool to help the team. I'll drop a RT. I'll drop a hive. I'll help with the healing station or OC wall. It's when I have to do just about all of it myself that I get vexed. I feel bad if I don't spend my starting res to help the team. I know I could have been doing more and I like to do my best when I play NS. There are plenty of people who both ignore the teams needs for their wants, and others who sacrifice their wants for the teams needs.
Gorging just isn't as fun. Dedicated Gorging is short, since the only time you can really be just a Gorge is if you're totally dominating the map. Then it's only a few minutes until your team wins. It's not that I miss the single Gorge system. I agree that it didn't make sense that one Gorge allowed faster expansion then two. But the 3-4 Gorge necessity is really starting to suck. I think I might just start playing marines more.
Still, gorges are ok, and I often see at least 2 gorges on alien teams. Sometimes there is one or none, but not always.
Yet within 2-3 weeks I've become a slave to the team. Noone else gorges, its all
Necrosis - drops hive
Other - "OK now drop three MCs.... what do you mean you need res?
"If I get three DC I can go Onos"
"I have 95 res, someone cap an RT/build chambers/hive"
Its a chore, and means I rarely make Onos or even Lerk. I spend all the game dropping chambers, because noone else will.
Still, at least I play on a few good servers, where this happens rarely.
And worst of all, if you get an early Fade or Onos you will be called a res hoarder, and on some servers they will boot you to the ready room or something mean.
Not to say I'm not guilty of this. One time I a guy got a fast Onos and I said "I declare (name) to be a crazy Onos res hoarder!!!" He got kicked to the ready room by an admin, and was pretty ****.
-JohnnySmash
you echo the sentiments of many in this community. moreover, you posted it clearly and succinctly. best post i've seen on this board in a long time.
i'd only like to add along the lines of your "lost fun" subject, in no way do 2nd hive bile bomb and 3rd hive web offer anywhere near the enjoyment of 2nd hive web and 3rd hive babblers.
The difference is that pub marines are using teamwork better in long games. Why? Because games where marines don't use teamwork tend to be short. Aliens, on the other hand, have enough of an advantage that they can get away with sloppy play and still drag out or even win the game.
There is a difference between an "unorganized pub team", and "unorganized pub players on the same team" Sounds like you're playing on servers where you're dealing with too much of the latter and not enough of the former. I often find that simply saying "Look, I've got no res. If you want it so bad, go gorge and get it," does wonders. If nothing else, it points out when you've got a group of non-team players because they all start whining about how close they are to being a fade/onos/whatever.
But beyond that, someone more callous would simply say, "Welcome to Natural Selection. Evolve or die." Your old 1.4 perma-gorging tactics don't work any more. Deal. Me, I gorge, use up all my res, and if it's coming in too slow, go skulk and snack up some RFK while scouting out empty RTs. When I'm back up to 25, I drop another RT, rinse, wash, and repeat.
I haven't been Onos for at least a week, because this bothers me. I've seen some real silly gorges.
"Sensory second? Damn gorge, why'd you do that?"
I <b>do not</b> miss the one gorge system. It created more problems than it was worth. A single gorge could destroy the round for the aliens. It was very rewarding however. Being a solo gorge from start to finish, and getting acknowledgement at the end was nice.
I don't know if you saw this much in 1.04 Zek, but the main reason I'm glad it's changed, is that lamers can no longer gorge for a faster rate and evolve before the rest. Back then it was rushing for the fade. Yeah I saw that a lot. They then invariably got their butts kicked and left after taking 64 of our res <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Keep the current system IMO. Builders have that warm feeling in their belly that they're making the win possible. Gorges are unsung heroes. Onos get the applause, but who made the onos existence possible? Us builders.
We know who the game winners are. People rarely notice a good gorge, but they'll sure as hell notice a bad one.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still want my plush gorgeh <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
lol <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
-JohnnySmash
Gorging used to be fun.. you used to be vital for the team, the outcome of win or lose depended on how you played gorge , what decisions you made etc.
Gorging is no longer as fun as it was before, and combined with the availability of other classes, you see more ppl saving for higher life forms than going gorge and dropping an rt at the start
I liked the one gorge system, much better than the current one.
Back to mindless BF1942 for me! And eye-candy filled SC4.
I also often play on pub servers aswell.
It can be hard to find people to work as a team, but often if you just ask, or play on a decent pub server, that has team-work rule and often has a admin, playing the gorge can be great fun.
We just often get 3 gorges and 2 lerks, and just sweep across the map, makeing outposts, killing off rines, dropping res, untill we have most of the map.
Great fun.
Here gorg is just another evolution. He is more important to protect than others because he is only one (class) that can build RTs and upgrades.
But gorgs been upgraded.
I don't know if it is just me (maybe I've been gaining skill), but finding keyareas in map is fun for offensive gorg. Put up OC or 2 and lure single marines after yourself.
I've noticed that with celerity gorg I get nice kills when I encounter single marines or 2 unskilled marines. It doesn't take much spit to kill a marine. And marines usually shoot at the walls.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> --- missed --> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
Marines are used to kill skulks so they shoot a lot. But gorg has more hp and gorg has a long range weapon... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Not to mention that a couple skulks and a few gorges can really hurt small groups of marines in the early game and take down elec rts with little issue.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> He's funny because He's fat.
Thing is, to get a decent res-flow you <b>have</b> to skulk between your gorging-rounds. And you <b>have</b> to be good at it, else you just end up giving more res to the marines than you get yourself. With gameplay jerking forward at roughly 5 fps in a firefight (I'm running NS through a Windows-emulator in Linux, so I'm actually not exaggerating), it's pretty much impossible to be a good skulk. I'm pretty much stuck at full-time gorging.
Of course, battle-gorging is pretty fun, helping out in the front-lines and all. Sadly, most skulk-players I've played with are too crappy to stay alive, thus my part up there in the front has usually consisted of trying to outrun marines.
*sigh*
Chamooze
This gorge army is more or less one gorge you cant kill soo easy.