<!--QuoteBegin--HAMBONE+Aug 27 2003, 04:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HAMBONE @ Aug 27 2003, 04:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Its not lame at all, they are doing the perfect counter to what you are doing, stop expanding so quickly! In starcraft ZvP you could early expand but the protoss would always send his first zealot and probes to attack your expansion and if you werent fast enough or he was better than you you would probably lose your expansion(and end up losing the whole game). You are trying to expand way too fast and as a result are left open for the rush. Stop expanding so quickly(our team only uses 2 gorges until the hive is dropped, then we have 3). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> if your playing starcraft in ZvP and you want to early expand, you can either 12 pool, 12 hatchery at your expansion, or hatchery in main then pool, then expand... but this isnt starcraft..
edit: but in most rts games, you'll know what your enemy is doing by scouting, thats a bit harder too do in ns imo
<!--QuoteBegin--zerg_queen+Aug 27 2003, 05:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zerg_queen @ Aug 27 2003, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if your playing starcraft in ZvP and you want to early expand, you can either 12 pool, 12 hatchery at your expansion, or hatchery in main then pool, then expand... but this isnt starcraft.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But it is an RTS the same principles apply...
I refer you to my post prior to Hambone's who made my point much more eloquently, but sometimes brute force will overcome finesse....
Oh and if that doesn't convince you. I suppose you also think aliens should have a button that means marines have to lie down and roll over while you eat them. God forbid they ever have a chance of fighting back...
It is 'billed' as a 'First-Person Strategy'. It is in 'real time' therefore it could be called a FPRTS. If you just look at the last 3 letters you will see it is an RTS if a somewhat modified one.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
its really easy and simple to scout in NS, you have a skulk at the exit of their base who tells you that your opponents are comign the second they leave base. Its easy to do that, its easy to parasite marines so you know when theyre coming. And your post about SC illustrated my point perfectly. You can do the safe thing and 12 pool or 12 hatch in main, or you can take a risk and expand. If you expand successfully then the risk payed off but you did take a risk doing that, just like you take a risk when everyone on your team goes gorge.
At some point in many FPS team-based games there comes a point at the top where everyone's individual skill is *about* the same, noone is really that much better than anyone else. At that point you are left with two factors, strategy and teamwork. NS definitely is an RTS. Not as deep as starcraft perhaps but an RTS nonetheless.
In response to the fellow that thought it was wrong that two Onii would hesitate entering a room with four shotgunners..
..What <i>wouldn't</i> hesitate? Four shotgun blasts will kill just about anything in nature, to be fair, barring larger marine life, which wouldn't really appreciate it at all, anyway. Elephants, rhinos, hippopotami, moose, elk.. Name me something that could take four direct hits from the high velocity slugs a shotgun puts through them, without being killed outright.
Considering the advantages available to the Kharaa at present, I'm not really surprised they can still find a way to gripe. It's a marine-unfriendly world out there right now, with chuckling echoing through the corridors unanswered, and huge beasts tearing chunks out of anyone that dares to stand and fight, and those that turn and run, without a shred of mercy. And when some moldy dog flies through the air to tear yet another good soldier in half with distain, it's suddenly <i>unfair</i> for that marine to take the top of the dog's face off with the best weapon available?
The shotgun is the answer to the skulk's jaws, and to the fade's claws. It's a very loud answer, too.
It all depends. Give a shotgun to a noob, he'll run off and die with it. Give a shotgun to a vet, he'll slaughter the skulks.
In my understanding, when people say shotgun shouldn't be so good because <i>ANYONE </i>with <i>NOSKILL</i> can kill with it, you're just telling me you're sore. Don't be so naive, if they kill you then they're either more skilled than you, or the upgrades/teamwork/lag/luck is on their side, it won't stay forever.
Aliens do win more than marines thats just because marines haven't found their groove or their ol' hmg/jp bulletproof tatic yet. And shotty rush (on pubs) isn't one of them, they often fail I'm afraid. Unless the skill is stacked to marines, but they can win it in other ways if the teams are stacked.
the shotgun is powerful, yes, but it doesn't go very far, its a very close ranged weapon, i would leave it at maybe 12 dmg a pellet and 10 pellets a shell.... its very easy to kill an onos yes, because they have to be close to kill you... but they have stomp, which isn't much use if they are on platforms ect....
but hey, the shotgun is great. i love it myself (cant get enough of that unbreakable glass sound with shotty <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) i couldn't life without it. its the best weapon to use against incoming skulks at the start of teh map.
<!--QuoteBegin--Corporal Cyn+Aug 28 2003, 08:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Corporal Cyn @ Aug 28 2003, 08:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->..What <i>wouldn't</i> hesitate? Four shotgun blasts will kill just about anything in nature, to be fair, barring larger marine life, which wouldn't really appreciate it at all, anyway. Elephants, rhinos, hippopotami, moose, elk.. Name me something that could take four direct hits from the high velocity slugs a shotgun puts through them, without being killed outright.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lets think about 4 shotgun shots.
You suppose that aliens should always attack marines head on? Why not sneak from behind? But this thing has already been said.
Well if onos charges men with SGs. Usually onos can choose place where he charges and I guess he won't take that hall to do it.
In narrow corridor marines usually end up shooting each other at the back. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
* * *
And finally another point. Have you tought about clan games? If SG is pain in butt for aliens it is hard to use among marines as well. Shooting team mates in tourney mode can be quite painful too. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Next question would be: "Should game be balanced for Clan or Pub games?" <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Considering the advantages available to the Kharaa at present, I'm not really surprised they can still find a way to gripe.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think one person here feels that there are not balance issues on the alien side as well....
This thread is about the shotgun..
Assuming the aliens receive some much needed nerfs (redeeming ONI, the fact that it basically takes at least 2 marines for every one alien on the map (which allows more aliens to roam free), the speed of a Celeritied anything, etc) then the shotgun is still slightly overpowered.
I think most of us here are looking at one issue at a time... There are other threads about alien balance issues, alien issues are discussed there..
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
If it bothers you all that much guys....
*Points at Beta Forum & Sig*
Help the devs fix it. Come play, and post <b>well thought out</b> ideas.
Screaming 'SHOTGUNS OMGZ0R!!!onneeone' doesn't help. Saying 'I think shotguns currently dominate a little too easily, because of A, B & C. This could be resolved through X, Y, or Z' will.
Umbra in 2.0 was a nice counter to 1 SG, but nothing can save you from 3 or 4. Its really the same as having 4 Skulks attack 1 person, he might be able to kill 2 before hes dead, and that would be something!
If the HMG was a bit better at killing lifeforms and less effective at destroying Structures I feel it would balance out.
The SG in 2.01 specs: 16 dmg per pellet, 8 rnds chambered, 40 reserve
Make the SG do less dmg vs chambers and hives. The Sg can still smoke a OC in 6.4 shots! A hive goes down in 4 reloads, or in other words, 1 full SG can kill a hive.
I have always thought the SG needs to be strong vs Oni, but less effective vs structures! make the SG do half dmg vs structures! 80 dmg per shot vs an OC
The GL hits with 125 dmg per shot right now. Make the GL rnd do 100 dmg vs lifeforms and 175 dmg vs structures This way it would be like the SG is now (a bit more powerfull than a SG blast vs an OC).
This would promote GL use for taking down hives and SG and HMG use for destroying kharaa lifeforms.
Hey guys I'm new to the forums but not particuarily new to NS.
Shotguns are marines only solution to skulks and are especially effective at the start of the game when you get a bunch of rushing skulks in your base. It is 10 res well spent, IMO skulks are so fast they don't have anything to complain about, especially as skulks can take out groups of marines in a few seconds.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Make the SG do less dmg vs chambers and hives. The Sg can still smoke a OC in 6.4 shots! A hive goes down in 4 reloads, or in other words, 1 full SG can kill a hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
6 and one half shots means you have 3 shots left for the Kharaa that jumps the OC after you kill it. Congratulations, you're dead.
If you are daft enough to let a single shotgunner kill your hive, reloading completely five times, you completely deserve to lose.
Shotgun's fine. Fade can kill in two hits, Skulk can kill in two-three, gorge four-five, lerk seven-eight. All don't worry about ammo at all, and can spam melee while sending the mouseball in a wild spin.
Marine gets one chance to make one shot, in most situations.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Greetings Ricky, welcome on board.
Depends who you play with. Some decent marines (or worse, teams of them) are basically unkillable as long as they're stocked with ammo.
I personally think the shotgun isn't overly nasty, I just think it's too good compared to the HMG. Especially when you consider how much nastier 2 shotgunners is for one HMGer.
But I can't see an alternative to nerfing the shotgun, because upping the HMG much more would be a serious mistake.
<!--QuoteBegin--Corporal Cyn+Aug 28 2003, 10:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Corporal Cyn @ Aug 28 2003, 10:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Make the SG do less dmg vs chambers and hives. The Sg can still smoke a OC in 6.4 shots! A hive goes down in 4 reloads, or in other words, 1 full SG can kill a hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
6 and one half shots means you have 3 shots left for the Kharaa that jumps the OC after you kill it. Congratulations, you're dead.
If you are daft enough to let a single shotgunner kill your hive, reloading completely five times, you completely deserve to lose.
Shotgun's fine. Fade can kill in two hits, Skulk can kill in two-three, gorge four-five, lerk seven-eight. All don't worry about ammo at all, and can spam melee while sending the mouseball in a wild spin.
Marine gets one chance to make one shot, in most situations. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I was talking about its power with the examples, not situations that can or do happen! Thats why I gave you the exact power of the SG vs an OC as 6.4 or I could have just said 7
Seems a bit silly to talk about the schematics of a hypothetical set of numbers against another, instead of the actual situations that happen in-game, doesn't it?
Shotguns IRL have no piercing capability whatsoever. It fires soft, round pellets, not aerodynamic tungsten slugs. Shotguns should be effective against LIGHT AND UNARMORED CRITTERS ONLY. They should do negligable damage to structures (1/4 damage?) and do less damage vs. carapaced critters.
<!--QuoteBegin--Corporal Cyn+Aug 28 2003, 10:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Corporal Cyn @ Aug 28 2003, 10:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Seems a bit silly to talk about the schematics of a hypothetical set of numbers against another, instead of the actual situations that happen in-game, doesn't it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem with 'real game' situations is almost everything HAS happened in game so you can't take them as 'typical'. EG; 1 skulk kills 10 SGers once does not mean SG's are underpowered....
Also can't a fully loaded LMG kill a hive, if you just allow some to do it?
The idea is the <b>Suspension of Disbelief</b>. Look it up if you don't know what it means. Furthermore, the shotgun needs to be balanced, and the best way is to copy it's properties real-life. Having it tear off limbs at 50 meters SOF2-style, or destroying a cow-sized creature covered in layers of hard bony growths in a couple shots, is NOT the way.
i do agree that the new shotties are slightly unbalanced. The reload animation barely finishes before the next shot is being fired and I think they do a lil too much damage.
I won 5 games in a row as comm in under 15 minutes...5 shotty rushes in a row, gg
I really hope there are no more changes to the shotgun because it is excellent as it is. The peopl ewhining about it must be upset because:
- They didn't win the 10th time in a row as aliens as they expected. - They got killed as a skulk while attacking a Marine that is upgraded, from the front.
Well boo-hoo.
The shotgun is STILL not better then the HMG (except against structures, where it is slightly better). Doesn't matter what you say, it doesn't deal out as much damage and it doesn't deal it out as accurately. It *does* deal it out in bigger chunks, which will negate redemption on *smaller* Aliens (skulk, lerk and gorge), but the "shotguns against redemption onos" is a myth. It only works if there are several shotguns firing at the same time, which never happens. I see more redemption cows die from HMG's then shotguns.
And the shotgun ruhs.. please. ONCE have I seen it succeed against an alien team that knew it was coming. That time we (I was alien) hadn't dropped any upgrade chambers (we were just disorganised) and half of us were in the spawn cue when the Marines entered the hive. All the other times the shotgun rush has failed miserably. It's so easy to stop:
Get some lerks (anyone who didn't gorge up to drop at the start) Get some gorges Get the whole team to the hive except for a couple that can try and flank/ambush
Gorges drop OC's if they can then healpsray the hive, aliens and marines.
Lerks spore the Marines. The whole Marine team is there so spores are incredibly effective. If they spread out, the COM can't med them and they will be easier for skulks to kill, if they stick together, spores do insane damage.
Skulks dart to and from the hive and try to stay alive, this makes it hell on marines who don't know what to shoot.
This *always* works and ends up in a net loss of 90-150 res for Marines (shotguns+meds) and a gain of 10-40 res for aliens due to RFK. If you lose to a shotgun rush you're either unorganised or unlucky. Unorganised as in you knew it was coming but your team did nothing about it or you didn't know because of bad play/communication, unlucky as in the whole alien team lagged out long enough for Marines to kill the hive or the timing was horrible (your team was dead/far away/all gorges when you found out the rush was coming).
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Now stop whining just because *sometimes* it takes a *little* teamwork for Aliens to win.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Aug 28 2003, 01:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Aug 28 2003, 01:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The shotgun is STILL not better then the HMG (except against structures, where it is slightly better). Doesn't matter what you say, it doesn't deal out as much damage and it doesn't deal it out as accurately. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I still think the SG is better than the HMG even if the DMG in 1 clip is almost the same. 1 clip of the HMG (125 x 10 DMG) does 1250 DMG at level 0 1 clip of the SG (10x16=160 x 8) does 1280 DMG at level 0
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Aug 28 2003, 02:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Aug 28 2003, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Aug 28 2003, 01:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Aug 28 2003, 01:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The shotgun is STILL not better then the HMG (except against structures, where it is slightly better). Doesn't matter what you say, it doesn't deal out as much damage and it doesn't deal it out as accurately. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I still think the SG is better than the HMG even if the DMG in 1 clip is almost the same. 1 clip of the HMG (125 x 10 DMG) does 1250 DMG at level 0 1 clip of the SG (10x16=160 x 8) does 1280 DMG at level 0 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah...
...except that the HMG does 20 and not 10 damage. If you've based your belief on it doing 10 damage I can understand why you would think the shotgun more powerful.
Unloading 48 rounds of shotgun (3840 Total Dmg) or unloading 375 rounds of HMG (7500 Total Dmg)?
[edit] I based my calculations off Majin's post [/edit] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I <i>think</i> that HMG is quicker, but I'm not sure......haven't really taken the time to check really......
But if you take into account how long it takes to load up a whole clip of shotgun vs a whole clip of HMG, and HMG only has 3 clips total while shotgun has 6.....hmmm.....
Comments
if your playing starcraft in ZvP and you want to early expand, you can either 12 pool, 12 hatchery at your expansion, or hatchery in main then pool, then expand... but this isnt starcraft..
edit: but in most rts games, you'll know what your enemy is doing by scouting, thats a bit harder too do in ns imo
anyway i dont want to go off topic.
But it is an RTS the same principles apply...
I refer you to my post prior to Hambone's who made my point much more eloquently, but sometimes brute force will overcome finesse....
Oh and if that doesn't convince you. I suppose you also think aliens should have a button that means marines have to lie down and roll over while you eat them. God forbid they ever have a chance of fighting back...
At some point in many FPS team-based games there comes a point at the top where everyone's individual skill is *about* the same, noone is really that much better than anyone else. At that point you are left with two factors, strategy and teamwork. NS definitely is an RTS. Not as deep as starcraft perhaps but an RTS nonetheless.
..What <i>wouldn't</i> hesitate? Four shotgun blasts will kill just about anything in nature, to be fair, barring larger marine life, which wouldn't really appreciate it at all, anyway. Elephants, rhinos, hippopotami, moose, elk.. Name me something that could take four direct hits from the high velocity slugs a shotgun puts through them, without being killed outright.
Considering the advantages available to the Kharaa at present, I'm not really surprised they can still find a way to gripe. It's a marine-unfriendly world out there right now, with chuckling echoing through the corridors unanswered, and huge beasts tearing chunks out of anyone that dares to stand and fight, and those that turn and run, without a shred of mercy. And when some moldy dog flies through the air to tear yet another good soldier in half with distain, it's suddenly <i>unfair</i> for that marine to take the top of the dog's face off with the best weapon available?
The shotgun is the answer to the skulk's jaws, and to the fade's claws. It's a very loud answer, too.
In my understanding, when people say shotgun shouldn't be so good because <i>ANYONE </i>with <i>NOSKILL</i> can kill with it, you're just telling me you're sore. Don't be so naive, if they kill you then they're either more skilled than you, or the upgrades/teamwork/lag/luck is on their side, it won't stay forever.
Aliens do win more than marines thats just because marines haven't found their groove or their ol' hmg/jp bulletproof tatic yet. And shotty rush (on pubs) isn't one of them, they often fail I'm afraid. Unless the skill is stacked to marines, but they can win it in other ways if the teams are stacked.
but hey, the shotgun is great. i love it myself (cant get enough of that unbreakable glass sound with shotty <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) i couldn't life without it. its the best weapon to use against incoming skulks at the start of teh map.
Lets think about 4 shotgun shots.
You suppose that aliens should always attack marines head on?
Why not sneak from behind? But this thing has already been said.
Well if onos charges men with SGs. Usually onos can choose place where he charges and I guess he won't take that hall to do it.
In narrow corridor marines usually end up shooting each other at the back. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
* * *
And finally another point. Have you tought about clan games?
If SG is pain in butt for aliens it is hard to use among marines as well.
Shooting team mates in tourney mode can be quite painful too. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Next question would be: "Should game be balanced for Clan or Pub games?" <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
So no i would say they arent super powerful.....
I don't think one person here feels that there are not balance issues on the alien side as well....
This thread is about the shotgun..
Assuming the aliens receive some much needed nerfs (redeeming ONI, the fact that it basically takes at least 2 marines for every one alien on the map (which allows more aliens to roam free), the speed of a Celeritied anything, etc) then the shotgun is still slightly overpowered.
I think most of us here are looking at one issue at a time... There are other threads about alien balance issues, alien issues are discussed there..
Look at the larger picture..
*Points at Beta Forum & Sig*
Help the devs fix it. Come play, and post <b>well thought out</b> ideas.
Screaming 'SHOTGUNS OMGZ0R!!!onneeone' doesn't help. Saying 'I think shotguns currently dominate a little too easily, because of A, B & C. This could be resolved through X, Y, or Z' will.
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Its really the same as having 4 Skulks attack 1 person, he might be able to kill 2 before hes dead, and that would be something!
If the HMG was a bit better at killing lifeforms and less effective at destroying Structures I feel it would balance out.
The SG in 2.01
specs: 16 dmg per pellet, 8 rnds chambered, 40 reserve
Make the SG do less dmg vs chambers and hives. The Sg can still smoke a OC in 6.4 shots!
A hive goes down in 4 reloads, or in other words, 1 full SG can kill a hive.
I have always thought the SG needs to be strong vs Oni, but less effective vs structures!
make the SG do half dmg vs structures! 80 dmg per shot vs an OC
The GL hits with 125 dmg per shot right now.
Make the GL rnd do 100 dmg vs lifeforms and 175 dmg vs structures
This way it would be like the SG is now (a bit more powerfull than a SG blast vs an OC).
This would promote GL use for taking down hives and SG and HMG use for destroying kharaa lifeforms.
Shotguns are marines only solution to skulks and are especially effective at the start of the game when you get a bunch of rushing skulks in your base. It is 10 res well spent, IMO skulks are so fast they don't have anything to complain about, especially as skulks can take out groups of marines in a few seconds.
A hive goes down in 4 reloads, or in other words, 1 full SG can kill a hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
6 and one half shots means you have 3 shots left for the Kharaa that jumps the OC after you kill it. Congratulations, you're dead.
If you are daft enough to let a single shotgunner kill your hive, reloading completely five times, you completely deserve to lose.
Shotgun's fine. Fade can kill in two hits, Skulk can kill in two-three, gorge four-five, lerk seven-eight. All don't worry about ammo at all, and can spam melee while sending the mouseball in a wild spin.
Marine gets one chance to make one shot, in most situations.
Depends who you play with. Some decent marines (or worse, teams of them) are basically unkillable as long as they're stocked with ammo.
I personally think the shotgun isn't overly nasty, I just think it's too good compared to the HMG. Especially when you consider how much nastier 2 shotgunners is for one HMGer.
But I can't see an alternative to nerfing the shotgun, because upping the HMG much more would be a serious mistake.
A hive goes down in 4 reloads, or in other words, 1 full SG can kill a hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
6 and one half shots means you have 3 shots left for the Kharaa that jumps the OC after you kill it. Congratulations, you're dead.
If you are daft enough to let a single shotgunner kill your hive, reloading completely five times, you completely deserve to lose.
Shotgun's fine. Fade can kill in two hits, Skulk can kill in two-three, gorge four-five, lerk seven-eight. All don't worry about ammo at all, and can spam melee while sending the mouseball in a wild spin.
Marine gets one chance to make one shot, in most situations. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was talking about its power with the examples, not situations that can or do happen!
Thats why I gave you the exact power of the SG vs an OC as 6.4
or I could have just said 7
I wonder if they've seen a battle between acid rocketing fades, charging onos, umbraing lerks, while a gorge webs the ha/shotgunners up.
The problem with 'real game' situations is almost everything HAS happened in game so you can't take them as 'typical'. EG; 1 skulk kills 10 SGers once does not mean SG's are underpowered....
Also can't a fully loaded LMG kill a hive, if you just allow some to do it?
I won 5 games in a row as comm in under 15 minutes...5 shotty rushes in a row, gg
Would asking you to actaully consider WHY I brought those points up be too much to ask of you? It obviously was...
- They didn't win the 10th time in a row as aliens as they expected.
- They got killed as a skulk while attacking a Marine that is upgraded, from the front.
Well boo-hoo.
The shotgun is STILL not better then the HMG (except against structures, where it is slightly better). Doesn't matter what you say, it doesn't deal out as much damage and it doesn't deal it out as accurately. It *does* deal it out in bigger chunks, which will negate redemption on *smaller* Aliens (skulk, lerk and gorge), but the "shotguns against redemption onos" is a myth. It only works if there are several shotguns firing at the same time, which never happens. I see more redemption cows die from HMG's then shotguns.
And the shotgun ruhs.. please. ONCE have I seen it succeed against an alien team that knew it was coming. That time we (I was alien) hadn't dropped any upgrade chambers (we were just disorganised) and half of us were in the spawn cue when the Marines entered the hive. All the other times the shotgun rush has failed miserably. It's so easy to stop:
Get some lerks (anyone who didn't gorge up to drop at the start)
Get some gorges
Get the whole team to the hive except for a couple that can try and flank/ambush
Gorges drop OC's if they can then healpsray the hive, aliens and marines.
Lerks spore the Marines. The whole Marine team is there so spores are incredibly effective. If they spread out, the COM can't med them and they will be easier for skulks to kill, if they stick together, spores do insane damage.
Skulks dart to and from the hive and try to stay alive, this makes it hell on marines who don't know what to shoot.
This *always* works and ends up in a net loss of 90-150 res for Marines (shotguns+meds) and a gain of 10-40 res for aliens due to RFK. If you lose to a shotgun rush you're either unorganised or unlucky. Unorganised as in you knew it was coming but your team did nothing about it or you didn't know because of bad play/communication, unlucky as in the whole alien team lagged out long enough for Marines to kill the hive or the timing was horrible (your team was dead/far away/all gorges when you found out the rush was coming).
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Now stop whining just because *sometimes* it takes a *little* teamwork for Aliens to win.</span>
I still think the SG is better than the HMG even if the DMG in 1 clip is almost the same.
1 clip of the HMG (125 x 10 DMG) does 1250 DMG at level 0
1 clip of the SG (10x16=160 x 8) does 1280 DMG at level 0
I still think the SG is better than the HMG even if the DMG in 1 clip is almost the same.
1 clip of the HMG (125 x 10 DMG) does 1250 DMG at level 0
1 clip of the SG (10x16=160 x 8) does 1280 DMG at level 0 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah...
...except that the HMG does 20 and not 10 damage. If you've based your belief on it doing 10 damage I can understand why you would think the shotgun more powerful.
What is quicker?
Unloading 48 rounds of shotgun (3840 Total Dmg) or unloading 375 rounds of HMG (7500 Total Dmg)?
[edit] I based my calculations off Majin's post [/edit]
What is quicker?
Unloading 48 rounds of shotgun (3840 Total Dmg) or unloading 375 rounds of HMG (7500 Total Dmg)?
[edit] I based my calculations off Majin's post [/edit] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I <i>think</i> that HMG is quicker, but I'm not sure......haven't really taken the time to check really......
But if you take into account how long it takes to load up a whole clip of shotgun vs a whole clip of HMG, and HMG only has 3 clips total while shotgun has 6.....hmmm.....