Unloading 48 rounds of shotgun (3840 Total Dmg) or unloading 375 rounds of HMG (7500 Total Dmg)?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The shotgun's rate of fire is one shot every .67 seconds. The heavy machinegun's rate of fire is one bullet every .067 seconds (15 bullets per second, reduced from the 1.04 value of, if I timed it correctly, 22.5 bullets per second).
Not counting reloading, the shotgun takes 32.16 seconds, and the HMG takes 25.125 seconds. However, taking reloading into account, the shotgun would take much longer (though I don't know the reload times).
So a shotgun will deliver 160 damage in 0.67 seconds while an HMG will deliver 214,1.
Then you need to consider that the shotguns *spread* makes it unlikely (actually impossible) that all that damage should end up on the alien unless he is very close.
So even in best conditions for the shotgun (ie: point blank) the HMG will outperform it against anything that can take 160 damage (ie: everything except skulks, yes, even an unupgraded lerk will have a hitpoint to spare). In anything BUT these perfect conditions, the HMG will exponentially outperform it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Keep in mind that you can also afford to put out 2 shotguns instead of one HMG... so you COULD say that there's even 2 shotguns firing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole point was that people are claiming that ONE shotgun is better then ONE HMG. TWO shotguns can deal out as much damage, but lack the accuracy. They are of course TWICE as good against structures though so we end up with... balance. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
One shotgun is inferior to a HMG in pretty much all situations (except up close against a skulk or structures). Which is ok, since it is cheaper. Two shotguns will be *much more* powerful against structures, *as* powerful (if not more) against aliens that are very close, and *less* powerful (much so) against aliens that are not close. But will also require two Marines...
Unloading 48 rounds of shotgun (3840 Total Dmg) or unloading 375 rounds of HMG (7500 Total Dmg)?
[edit] I based my calculations off Majin's post [/edit] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Answer:
<b>HMG</b> 47.92 s 46.65 s 45.22 s 44.29 s 47.57 s
Average Time: 46.33 s
Possible Sources of Error: I tested the HMG on v2.0 server but I don't recall anything done to it since then so I thnk that should be okay but it's worth nothing because I'm not sure. Human error, I could have started to fast or too late, stopped short or too late.
<b>SG</b> 102.37 s 101.11 s 105.46 s* 102.51 s 101.75 s
Average Time: 102.64 s
Possible Sources of Error: I tested the SG on a 2.01d servber. The time with the asterisk* was off due to the way a SG loads. When you finish off the chambered 8 rounds you can reload all 8 rounds or choose to fire after you chamber 1 round. If you hold down the fire button when the SG is empty it clicks and does not reload until after you let go of the button. In that case my time was off because I may have held the fire button too long after I finished off 8 rounds. The way I timed it was empty the chamber of the 8 rounds and reload back to full before shooting again. Human error, I could have started to fast or too late, stopped short or too late.
<b>Conclusion</b> A <b>HMG</b> took an average of 46.33 seconds to deal 7500 points of damage. A <b>SG</b> took an average of 102.64 seconds to deal 3840 points of damage.
Again, you have to take into account that there will be two shotguns out on the field instead of one hmg. Then you have to consider the fact that in all practical uses the shotgun is the weapon of choice because for average players it produces better results than the hmg. All that for a measily 10 res.
Btw, whoever was saying that not all the shotgun bullets will hit, you have to do the same thing for the hmg. A LOT more bullets will be missed with the hmg.
Reducing the clip to 8/40 will hardly do anything because everyone is done killing everything (enemies not structures) by the time they reach 4-5. All I wish is that they would reduce the speed of it.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Dead_Dan+Aug 28 2003, 04:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Aug 28 2003, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Btw, whoever was saying that not all the shotgun bullets will hit, you have to do the same thing for the hmg. A LOT more bullets will be missed with the hmg. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Since the HMG has a much tighter spread than the shotgun, why would <b>more</b> of its bullets miss? That doesn't make sense.
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Aug 28 2003, 03:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Aug 28 2003, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Dead_Dan+Aug 28 2003, 04:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Aug 28 2003, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Btw, whoever was saying that not all the shotgun bullets will hit, you have to do the same thing for the hmg. A LOT more bullets will be missed with the hmg. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since the HMG has a much tighter spread than the shotgun, why would <b>more</b> of its bullets miss? That doesn't make sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wasn't the HMG cone of fire reduced at one point between versions? Didn't it stick?
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited August 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Fantasmo+Aug 28 2003, 04:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Aug 28 2003, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Aug 28 2003, 03:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Aug 28 2003, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Dead_Dan+Aug 28 2003, 04:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Aug 28 2003, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Btw, whoever was saying that not all the shotgun bullets will hit, you have to do the same thing for the hmg. A LOT more bullets will be missed with the hmg. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since the HMG has a much tighter spread than the shotgun, why would <b>more</b> of its bullets miss? That doesn't make sense. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wasn't the HMG cone of fire reduced at one point between versions? Didn't it stick? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. It was changed from 10 degrees to 6 degrees, according to the changelog.
I think people are forgetting ONE of the most important counters to a shotgun rush ... sensory chambers. I was playing on caged a few days ago, started in sewer. All of a sudden I see 2 marines get shotgun kills, so I run to the hive. As soon as I get there I gorge and drop sensory ... luckily I finish building about 3 seconds before the marines get there. The marines charged right in ... and with only 3 skulks and me as a gorge we manged to hold off 7 shotgun marines. As the marines built no ip only an armory, it was an immediate victory.
And personally, I find I kill skulks and onos best with shotguns, while I kill gorges, lerks, and fades best with HMG.
I don't think the shotgun is overpowered as a weapon; although I think it IS actually a little too much "bang for the buck"
Up the res to 13 perhaps?
65 res equips 5 marines with a cost of 13, which isn't a huge nerf, but it reduces the cost effectiveness of it a fair bit. Considering typical clanplay is 6v6, this wouldn't hurt the marines too much, but would make the rush far more risky. That extra 15 res is 1 less rt, which means that you actually do lose your expansion potential noticeably to equip a large group of shotgunners.
Typical public server is 10v10, so at a rate of passing out 9 sgs at 13 res each, you get 117 res to equip your marines, which is almost 2 less rts, or close to the cost of a significant upgrade.
In my opinion, it isn't the shotgun rush that is powerful, it is the shotgun's ability to annihilate offensive aliens trying to stop the marines from sieging their hive. A slight cost increase would make sieging with cheap shotgun support far less effective.
If I compare 100 res for 5 hmgs to 65 res for 5 sgs, I might still consider the sgs instead if i'm strapped for cash; but the hmgs would be far superior in terms of stopping power, even in unskilled hands.
My biggest problem with the shotgun cost as it is, is what you get for the money really. As it is, you aren't really hurting that much by passing a mass of shotguns out, while by passing out other advanced weapons you are taking a really big risk. Shotguns just aren't that big of a risk because of their low cost. Hmgs and gls just aren't cost effective until the very latest stages of the midgame-endgame, while shotguns tend to be extremely good all the time.
I think my point is: if you are to perform a rush/push, then there should be more risk associated with the cost of your offensive than there tends to be with a sg push.
Hmmm.....If shotguns do 1/4 damage to structures......and HMGs already do only 1/2 damage......the only thing that will be able to kill structures cost-effectively is the GL. LMG doesn't count cuz it's free.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mr.KNifey+Aug 28 2003, 05:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.KNifey @ Aug 28 2003, 05:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hmmm.....If shotguns do 1/4 damage to structures......and HMGs already do only 1/2 damage......the only thing that will be able to kill structures cost-effectively is the GL. LMG doesn't count cuz it's free. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Knife pwns structures too <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I've seen suicidal marines throw themselves at my chambers with a knife.
As for cost-effective, you're right, it IS too cost-effective that it only takes like 4 or 5 shots with a shotgun to take out an offense chamber. In 2.01d, the chamber health has been reduced, so it should only take 4! That *IS* too cost-effective. A cheap tool shouldn't be an all-purpose device. Shotguns should be good for killing fast-moving critters, not a portable siege.
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Aug 28 2003, 03:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Aug 28 2003, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Dead_Dan+Aug 28 2003, 04:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Aug 28 2003, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Btw, whoever was saying that not all the shotgun bullets will hit, you have to do the same thing for the hmg. A LOT more bullets will be missed with the hmg. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since the HMG has a much tighter spread than the shotgun, why would <b>more</b> of its bullets miss? That doesn't make sense. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because the average player doesn't have very good aim and they generally spray and pray. They just swerve their gun back and forth in the general direction of the small skulk or lerk therefore they do miss quite a bit with the hmg (granted you hit a lot more against fades and onos but the same thing can be said for shotties) . I know this because only play skulk and I am able take out way more people with hmg than shotties. I generally have quite a bit of health left after fighting an hmg but about 2 in 3 shotties leave me dead.
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<!--QuoteBegin--Dead_Dan+Aug 28 2003, 06:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Aug 28 2003, 06:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because the average player doesn't have very good aim and they generally spray and pray. They just swerve their gun back and forth in the general direction of the small skulk or lerk therefore they do miss quite a bit with the hmg (granted you hit a lot more against fades and onos but the same thing can be said for shotties) .<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that if someone "sprays and prays" with the HMG, they'd be very ineffective with the shotgun.
Shotgun has a mich wider area to hit stuff with and couple that with an insanely fast firing rate then all it takes is a few spray and prays and you've dropped a skulk a lot faster than with the hmg.
My thoughts on the SG copied from a thread in the beta forums.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><u>Are Shotguns Overpowered?</u> In 2.01 I saw moderate to highly skilled marines run around with a SG and kill like a good LMGer could in 1.04; chaining together 2-3 kills at a time. My suggestions for 2.01x was to nerf the SG somehow but I never thought reducing the capacity would do much. Well I'm happy to say the reduced capacity has helped with ramboing SGers. No longer do I see a single solo marine owning too hard with a SG.
However with that said a squad of SGers is still mighty effective for the price you pay to arm them. At 50 Res you have 5 SGers that can pretty much take out all but the most organized alien rush. It is a major deal to spend 50 res to take down a hive instead of spending the res for TFAC/SIEGE UPGRADE/SIEGE/PINGAGE not to mention the time it takes for those things to be built and upgraded.
Now is it overpowered? I'm not sure that it is with 8/40 capacity. As soon as a squad of SGers move into an open area with 3+ entrances (most Hives and big rooms) a decent pack rush can take them out. As long as the aliens are smart with combining evos (Gorge/Lerks) or attack from several different directions simultanously a good group effort can thwart the SG squad.
This issue may be a case of waiting for aliens to develope better teamwork and smarter tactics against SGers. 2 SGers in a tight hallway is going to be tough because the SGs are in their element. Waiting for them to move into a bigger room before setting off an ambush is far more effective then stubbornly rushing them in a small hallway. For now I think the 2.01d shotguns are fair. To nerf them damage-wise or reduce the capacity even more may take away the marines ability to counter bigger evos early in the game. The only thing I would consider for the SG in terms of future tweaks might be a slightly higher cost, perhaps in the 15 resource range.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
shottys are well absolutely fair ESPECIALLY on 2.0 servers where aliens CONSTANTLY win and today rines won for the first time in a long while on mineshaft...
<!--QuoteBegin--nukeaqua+Aug 28 2003, 06:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (nukeaqua @ Aug 28 2003, 06:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> shottys are well absolutely fair ESPECIALLY on 2.0 servers where aliens CONSTANTLY win and today rines won for the first time in a long while on mineshaft... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I would like a little variety in the ways I get pwned, every game that rines do win is under the exact same circumstances, every single game
<!--QuoteBegin--Dead_Dan+Aug 28 2003, 06:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Aug 28 2003, 06:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Shotgun has a mich wider area to hit stuff with and couple that with an insanely fast firing rate then all it takes is a few spray and prays and you've dropped a skulk a lot faster than with the hmg. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So because the shotgun is less accurate it is better?
You're saying that since "people" can't aim, the shotgun is better because less of its bullets end up at the crosshair. Great reasoning. Basically the best gun would be one that never hit the crosshair.
Shotgun deals out more damage and quicker. As much as 4 times more. It i smore accurate. How can you still claim that the shotgun is overpowered in comparison, the HMG is *obviously* a lot better. Just because the shotty is more *common* doesn't mean it is overpowered, instead you should be happy that it is common, since if it was HMG's you'd be owned twice as much, or four times.
And "too cost effective" is *the same* as overpowered in a strategy game. And since cost effective can be reduced to damage/res it's obvious that it isn't, when compared to the HMG.
Be honest and admit that the "power" of the shotgun is just emotional. You've gotten killed by it a lot (because it is so common) and that's what you base it on. When it comes to *facts* you don't have a leg to stand on.
I think the main problem is that aliens are a little bit too used to chargin head on to marines with lmg. If you're a fade or an onos, charging head on to an lmg is not that much of a problem, you have enough health to kill it marine and survive. But if the marines had a rocket launcher, who would be stupid enough to charge head on?. Leaping at a marine's face with a skulk, when the marine has a shotgun, is like charging head on to a rocket launcher... you're dead. But what about strafing, backstabbing, sneaking, venting and so on? have the alien players forget how to move other than forward?. I'm a regular player, and when I see a marine with a shotgun I don't jump right at him. I move in random patterns until he fires the shot. Then I run, bite, and go back to random patterns. It takes me about 5 or six seconds to finish him off, instead of the natural 1-2, but I pretty much survive. Shotguns are not overpowered, they are meant to do a lot of damage in close quarters, but people seem to forget that you can't spray and pray with a shotgun. And that close quarter combat means STRAFING around and throwing off the oponent's aim, not just biting and standing still.
<span style='font-family:Times'>oops about my last post, the 10 DMG, I know its 20, I dont know why I did that? These following numbers are correct AFAIK.</span>
<u>Shot Gun Total Damage Per Level of Upgrade</u> SG Level 0: 10 x 16 = 160 x 48 = 7680 SG Level 1: 10 x 18 = 180 x 48 = 8640 SG Level 2: 10 x 20 = 200 x 48 = 9600 SG Level 3: 10 x 22 = 220 x 48 = 10560
<u>HMG Total Damage Per Level of Upgrade</u> HMG Level 0: 125 x 20 = 2500 x 3 = 7500 HMG Level 1: 125 x 22 = 2750 x 3 = 8250 HMG Level 2: 125 x 24 = 3000 x 3 = 9000 HMG Level 3: 125 x 26 = 3250 x 3 = 9750
As you can see the SG is over all more powerful, but the HMG is superior becasue it's a ranged gun.
A hive has 6000 life so either of these weps is powerfull enough to destroy a Hive once filled to max with ammo (or are they?). But a SG isn't percing, maning that vs Structures a SG will do full DMG while a HMG will only do:
So as you can see, a SG is a better weapon at destroying Kharaa Structures by FAR, and if you look at the TIme it takes from the previous posts, it factors out to be quicker to destroy a structure or Hive with a SG.
If anyone of my number are incorrect, please make correction.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Aug 29 2003, 10:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Aug 29 2003, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->GL Level 0: 125 x 4 = 500 x 30 = 15000 GL Level 1: 127 x 4 = 508 x 30 = 15240 GL Level 2: 129 x 4 = 516 x 30 = 15480 GL Level 3: 131 x 4 = 524 x 30 = 15720 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is erroneous, the grenade launcher doesn't hold 30 clips of 4 grenades each. That would equal a total of 120 grenades.
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Aug 29 2003, 09:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Aug 29 2003, 09:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Aug 29 2003, 10:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Aug 29 2003, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->GL Level 0: 125 x 4 = 500 x 30 = 15000 GL Level 1: 127 x 4 = 508 x 30 = 15240 GL Level 2: 129 x 4 = 516 x 30 = 15480 GL Level 3: 131 x 4 = 524 x 30 = 15720 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is erroneous, the grenade launcher doesn't hold 30 clips of 4 grenades each. That would equal a total of 120 grenades. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> thats total nades the GL has not total Clips!
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Aug 29 2003, 10:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Aug 29 2003, 10:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Aug 29 2003, 09:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Aug 29 2003, 09:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Aug 29 2003, 10:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Aug 29 2003, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->GL Level 0: 125 x 4 = 500 x 30 = 15000 GL Level 1: 127 x 4 = 508 x 30 = 15240 GL Level 2: 129 x 4 = 516 x 30 = 15480 GL Level 3: 131 x 4 = 524 x 30 = 15720 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is erroneous, the grenade launcher doesn't hold 30 clips of 4 grenades each. That would equal a total of 120 grenades. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> thats total nades the GL has not total Clips! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then why is each grenade's damage multiplied by four?
Comments
What is quicker?
Unloading 48 rounds of shotgun (3840 Total Dmg) or unloading 375 rounds of HMG (7500 Total Dmg)?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The shotgun's rate of fire is one shot every .67 seconds. The heavy machinegun's rate of fire is one bullet every .067 seconds (15 bullets per second, reduced from the 1.04 value of, if I timed it correctly, 22.5 bullets per second).
Not counting reloading, the shotgun takes 32.16 seconds, and the HMG takes 25.125 seconds. However, taking reloading into account, the shotgun would take much longer (though I don't know the reload times).
Keep in mind that you can also afford to put out 2 shotguns instead of one HMG... so you COULD say that there's even 2 shotguns firing.
Then you need to consider that the shotguns *spread* makes it unlikely (actually impossible) that all that damage should end up on the alien unless he is very close.
So even in best conditions for the shotgun (ie: point blank) the HMG will outperform it against anything that can take 160 damage (ie: everything except skulks, yes, even an unupgraded lerk will have a hitpoint to spare). In anything BUT these perfect conditions, the HMG will exponentially outperform it.
The whole point was that people are claiming that ONE shotgun is better then ONE HMG. TWO shotguns can deal out as much damage, but lack the accuracy. They are of course TWICE as good against structures though so we end up with... balance. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
One shotgun is inferior to a HMG in pretty much all situations (except up close against a skulk or structures). Which is ok, since it is cheaper. Two shotguns will be *much more* powerful against structures, *as* powerful (if not more) against aliens that are very close, and *less* powerful (much so) against aliens that are not close. But will also require two Marines...
Balance.
As opposed to imbalance, which was the claim.
What is quicker?
Unloading 48 rounds of shotgun (3840 Total Dmg) or unloading 375 rounds of HMG (7500 Total Dmg)?
[edit] I based my calculations off Majin's post [/edit] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Answer:
<b>HMG</b>
47.92 s
46.65 s
45.22 s
44.29 s
47.57 s
Average Time: 46.33 s
Possible Sources of Error: I tested the HMG on v2.0 server but I don't recall anything done to it since then so I thnk that should be okay but it's worth nothing because I'm not sure. Human error, I could have started to fast or too late, stopped short or too late.
<b>SG</b>
102.37 s
101.11 s
105.46 s*
102.51 s
101.75 s
Average Time: 102.64 s
Possible Sources of Error: I tested the SG on a 2.01d servber. The time with the asterisk* was off due to the way a SG loads. When you finish off the chambered 8 rounds you can reload all 8 rounds or choose to fire after you chamber 1 round. If you hold down the fire button when the SG is empty it clicks and does not reload until after you let go of the button. In that case my time was off because I may have held the fire button too long after I finished off 8 rounds. The way I timed it was empty the chamber of the 8 rounds and reload back to full before shooting again. Human error, I could have started to fast or too late, stopped short or too late.
<b>Conclusion</b>
A <b>HMG</b> took an average of 46.33 seconds to deal 7500 points of damage.
A <b>SG</b> took an average of 102.64 seconds to deal 3840 points of damage.
Btw, whoever was saying that not all the shotgun bullets will hit, you have to do the same thing for the hmg. A LOT more bullets will be missed with the hmg.
Reducing the clip to 8/40 will hardly do anything because everyone is done killing everything (enemies not structures) by the time they reach 4-5. All I wish is that they would reduce the speed of it.
Since the HMG has a much tighter spread than the shotgun, why would <b>more</b> of its bullets miss? That doesn't make sense.
Since the HMG has a much tighter spread than the shotgun, why would <b>more</b> of its bullets miss? That doesn't make sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wasn't the HMG cone of fire reduced at one point between versions? Didn't it stick?
Since the HMG has a much tighter spread than the shotgun, why would <b>more</b> of its bullets miss? That doesn't make sense. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wasn't the HMG cone of fire reduced at one point between versions? Didn't it stick? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. It was changed from 10 degrees to 6 degrees, according to the changelog.
And personally, I find I kill skulks and onos best with shotguns, while I kill gorges, lerks, and fades best with HMG.
Up the res to 13 perhaps?
65 res equips 5 marines with a cost of 13, which isn't a huge nerf, but it reduces the cost effectiveness of it a fair bit. Considering typical clanplay is 6v6, this wouldn't hurt the marines too much, but would make the rush far more risky. That extra 15 res is 1 less rt, which means that you actually do lose your expansion potential noticeably to equip a large group of shotgunners.
Typical public server is 10v10, so at a rate of passing out 9 sgs at 13 res each, you get 117 res to equip your marines, which is almost 2 less rts, or close to the cost of a significant upgrade.
In my opinion, it isn't the shotgun rush that is powerful, it is the shotgun's ability to annihilate offensive aliens trying to stop the marines from sieging their hive. A slight cost increase would make sieging with cheap shotgun support far less effective.
If I compare 100 res for 5 hmgs to 65 res for 5 sgs, I might still consider the sgs instead if i'm strapped for cash; but the hmgs would be far superior in terms of stopping power, even in unskilled hands.
My biggest problem with the shotgun cost as it is, is what you get for the money really. As it is, you aren't really hurting that much by passing a mass of shotguns out, while by passing out other advanced weapons you are taking a really big risk. Shotguns just aren't that big of a risk because of their low cost. Hmgs and gls just aren't cost effective until the very latest stages of the midgame-endgame, while shotguns tend to be extremely good all the time.
I think my point is: if you are to perform a rush/push, then there should be more risk associated with the cost of your offensive than there tends to be with a sg push.
Nothing quite like hearing 'Our hive is under attack!' and the hive is DEAD by the time the sound finishes playing...
This would make HMGs more viable as an 'all around' bread-butter weapon instead of the I-see-it-dies shotguns.
Shotguns would be good for taking down aliens, but O Chambers would pose a very difficult obstacle.
I just don't think the shotgun is overpowered as a weapon, I maintain that its biggest problem is its cost-effectiveness.
Knife pwns structures too <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I've seen suicidal marines throw themselves at my chambers with a knife.
As for cost-effective, you're right, it IS too cost-effective that it only takes like 4 or 5 shots with a shotgun to take out an offense chamber. In 2.01d, the chamber health has been reduced, so it should only take 4! That *IS* too cost-effective. A cheap tool shouldn't be an all-purpose device. Shotguns should be good for killing fast-moving critters, not a portable siege.
Since the HMG has a much tighter spread than the shotgun, why would <b>more</b> of its bullets miss? That doesn't make sense. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the average player doesn't have very good aim and they generally spray and pray. They just swerve their gun back and forth in the general direction of the small skulk or lerk therefore they do miss quite a bit with the hmg (granted you hit a lot more against fades and onos but the same thing can be said for shotties) . I know this because only play skulk and I am able take out way more people with hmg than shotties. I generally have quite a bit of health left after fighting an hmg but about 2 in 3 shotties leave me dead.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that if someone "sprays and prays" with the HMG, they'd be very ineffective with the shotgun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><u>Are Shotguns Overpowered?</u>
In 2.01 I saw moderate to highly skilled marines run around with a SG and kill like a good LMGer could in 1.04; chaining together 2-3 kills at a time. My suggestions for 2.01x was to nerf the SG somehow but I never thought reducing the capacity would do much. Well I'm happy to say the reduced capacity has helped with ramboing SGers. No longer do I see a single solo marine owning too hard with a SG.
However with that said a squad of SGers is still mighty effective for the price you pay to arm them. At 50 Res you have 5 SGers that can pretty much take out all but the most organized alien rush. It is a major deal to spend 50 res to take down a hive instead of spending the res for TFAC/SIEGE UPGRADE/SIEGE/PINGAGE not to mention the time it takes for those things to be built and upgraded.
Now is it overpowered? I'm not sure that it is with 8/40 capacity. As soon as a squad of SGers move into an open area with 3+ entrances (most Hives and big rooms) a decent pack rush can take them out. As long as the aliens are smart with combining evos (Gorge/Lerks) or attack from several different directions simultanously a good group effort can thwart the SG squad.
This issue may be a case of waiting for aliens to develope better teamwork and smarter tactics against SGers. 2 SGers in a tight hallway is going to be tough because the SGs are in their element. Waiting for them to move into a bigger room before setting off an ambush is far more effective then stubbornly rushing them in a small hallway. For now I think the 2.01d shotguns are fair. To nerf them damage-wise or reduce the capacity even more may take away the marines ability to counter bigger evos early in the game. The only thing I would consider for the SG in terms of future tweaks might be a slightly higher cost, perhaps in the 15 resource range.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like a little variety in the ways I get pwned, every game that rines do win is under the exact same circumstances, every single game
So because the shotgun is less accurate it is better?
You're saying that since "people" can't aim, the shotgun is better because less of its bullets end up at the crosshair. Great reasoning. Basically the best gun would be one that never hit the crosshair.
Shotgun deals out more damage and quicker. As much as 4 times more. It i smore accurate. How can you still claim that the shotgun is overpowered in comparison, the HMG is *obviously* a lot better. Just because the shotty is more *common* doesn't mean it is overpowered, instead you should be happy that it is common, since if it was HMG's you'd be owned twice as much, or four times.
And "too cost effective" is *the same* as overpowered in a strategy game. And since cost effective can be reduced to damage/res it's obvious that it isn't, when compared to the HMG.
Be honest and admit that the "power" of the shotgun is just emotional. You've gotten killed by it a lot (because it is so common) and that's what you base it on. When it comes to *facts* you don't have a leg to stand on.
touch my shotty and die - Impy
(btw i shottied 9 onos today in 1 game imma shotty god =)
Leaping at a marine's face with a skulk, when the marine has a shotgun, is like charging head on to a rocket launcher... you're dead.
But what about strafing, backstabbing, sneaking, venting and so on? have the alien players forget how to move other than forward?.
I'm a regular player, and when I see a marine with a shotgun I don't jump right at him. I move in random patterns until he fires the shot. Then I run, bite, and go back to random patterns. It takes me about 5 or six seconds to finish him off, instead of the natural 1-2, but I pretty much survive.
Shotguns are not overpowered, they are meant to do a lot of damage in close quarters, but people seem to forget that you can't spray and pray with a shotgun. And that close quarter combat means STRAFING around and throwing off the oponent's aim, not just biting and standing still.
<u>Shot Gun Total Damage Per Level of Upgrade</u>
SG Level 0: 10 x 16 = 160 x 48 = 7680
SG Level 1: 10 x 18 = 180 x 48 = 8640
SG Level 2: 10 x 20 = 200 x 48 = 9600
SG Level 3: 10 x 22 = 220 x 48 = 10560
<u>HMG Total Damage Per Level of Upgrade</u>
HMG Level 0: 125 x 20 = 2500 x 3 = 7500
HMG Level 1: 125 x 22 = 2750 x 3 = 8250
HMG Level 2: 125 x 24 = 3000 x 3 = 9000
HMG Level 3: 125 x 26 = 3250 x 3 = 9750
As you can see the SG is over all more powerful, but the HMG is superior becasue it's a ranged gun.
A hive has 6000 life so either of these weps is powerfull enough to destroy a Hive once filled to max with ammo (or are they?). But a SG isn't percing, maning that vs Structures a SG will do full DMG while a HMG will only do:
HMG Level 0: 3750
HMG Level 1: 4125
HMG Level 2: 4500
HMG Level 3: 4875
So as you can see, a SG is a better weapon at destroying Kharaa Structures by FAR, and if you look at the TIme it takes from the previous posts, it factors out to be quicker to destroy a structure or Hive with a SG.
If anyone of my number are incorrect, please make correction.
GL Level 1: 127 x 4 = 508 x 30 = 15240
GL Level 2: 129 x 4 = 516 x 30 = 15480
GL Level 3: 131 x 4 = 524 x 30 = 15720 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is erroneous, the grenade launcher doesn't hold 30 clips of 4 grenades each. That would equal a total of 120 grenades.
GL Level 1: 127 x 4 = 508 x 30 = 15240
GL Level 2: 129 x 4 = 516 x 30 = 15480
GL Level 3: 131 x 4 = 524 x 30 = 15720 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is erroneous, the grenade launcher doesn't hold 30 clips of 4 grenades each. That would equal a total of 120 grenades. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats total nades the GL has not total Clips!
GL Level 1: 127 x 4 = 508 x 30 = 15240
GL Level 2: 129 x 4 = 516 x 30 = 15480
GL Level 3: 131 x 4 = 524 x 30 = 15720 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is erroneous, the grenade launcher doesn't hold 30 clips of 4 grenades each. That would equal a total of 120 grenades. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats total nades the GL has not total Clips! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why is each grenade's damage multiplied by four?