<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can you please re-word that? I've read it several times and it makes no sense. I reckon NS:C will definately enduce more ramboing, either because of an influx of CS players or NS:C encouraging being a rambo.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? Have you actually considered that there is another crowd of NS that likes to emphasize their FPS skills as much as their strategy skills? Instead you label it the rambo crowd?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Easy to play? TFC, DOD and CS are the big games with HL, all easy to pick up and all owned by Valve, why? Because they are simple to play. Also, just because you don't agree with a comment, does not make it "crap."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with a comment.. because it makes no sense. NS is right below DoD in terms of popularity.
And the ton of simple HL mods that aren't nearly as popular would be but not limted:
FA RocketCrowbar Richochet etc.
Simple != good or more popular.
It's actually quite the contrary that makes game's popular; the depth. There is a ton of depth to CS, TFC, and DoD, which is why they have remained popular to this day. The depth isn't in the strategy, but the skill aspect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People who would join through NS:C will get a very cut down simplified version of NS... Almost totally different how you do things in normal NS. When they come to normal NS they will be either "turned off by the steep learning curve," or go rambo because they know no better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. They will apply concepts and put their knowledge to use. This is how humans work. This is a underused tatic in schools as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What happens when a server plays a NS:C map, then it switches to a normal NS map? Some NS:C players will leave, NS players will join and have a game with rambos. This may not be true, but it is a VERY possible scenario. Let's hope servers put what maps they are playing in their title, or the NS team have a solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your scenerio isn't any more likely with NS:C than NS is without NS:C.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know about you, but when I downloaded NS I tried to play the training which didn't work. When a friend of mine tried NS he asked why the training didn't work. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one has ever played the NS training because there is none. Also, training maps aren't really used by the majority of players... esp. in mods... I know that in every mod I've ever played, not once have I looked for at training map.
As a training tool for NS I think it is fundamentally flawed. New players in NS do not ask questions about gun types or aliens, they press fire and figure that out. Given that there are NO buildings mentioned, it will be unable to teach "where do I get ammo, how do I get a gun, etc" since its methods of providing both are radically different. A new player who has been "trained" in ns combat will get the fright of his life when cloaked OC's kick in, and when after killing aliens he gets no "upgrade options" he will no doubt be confused. Finally it will be hard to persuade "veteran NS combat players" to defend a base when they are used to being able to run off and hunt down the enemy with impunity. Finally I can see it as a division of players. You may well intice new players in with it, but why would they then be enticed into old scholl ns? It is essentially a different game. Very similar to CS (not nessecarily a bad thing), which may loose some of the special nature of NS. ie/ unlike anything before it... I'm just worried you've been talking to valve Flay <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->.
So long as my old NS rts is still there I don't mind. If it lures all the "non-teamplay types" off the RTS servers then I have no issues with it at all <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ... Hopefully it won't lure EVERYONE off...
It could be fun, I'll have to see I guess. I was kinda hoping that time would be spent expanding on the RTS side of NS, I still remember promises of volumetric flamethrowers. Hopefully this combat version will at least help with basic weapon balancing.
We'll be going in circle if I keep replying but ohwell... I'll try to keep it short <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What? Have you actually considered that there is another crowd of NS that likes to emphasize their FPS skills as much as their strategy skills? Instead you label it the rambo crowd?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a difference between somebody who wants to get better at shooting and a person who runs off, does his own thing and doesn't listen to the commander (a rambo.) All of which are encouraged by NS:C, appart from the commander bit, because there isn't one (or is there?) But still, it's a potentially big problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->About the easy to play comment<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're talking about how easy the game is to play, not depth. Most people could pick up the mentioned HL mods and shoot away happily, skill comes naturally and should not be confused with how easy the <i>concept</i> of CS/DOD/TFC is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They will apply concepts and put their knowledge to use. This is how humans work. This is a underused tatic in schools as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They will still have to learn the concepts, the same if they hadn't played NS:C. Imagine a CS player who downloads NS and has a go, chances are he will just run around confused shooting the aliens. What's the difference between a NS:C player and a CS player? Just because the NS:C player has shot an alien before and used an HMG, doesn't mean he understands the concepts of NS. On this point, you'll get more people whining at the comm for "better weapons/armour."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your scenerio isn't any more likely with NS:C than NS is without NS:C.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say there is a greater chance of getting a team full of rambos on a server which plays NS:C and normal NS than joining a normal NS server now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No one has ever played the NS training because there is none. Also, training maps aren't really used by the majority of players... esp. in mods... I know that in every mod I've ever played, not once have I looked for at training map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was a training module in production for NS a while back, I believe Merkaba (ns_hera) was making it. In 1.0 when you clicked on training, you were taken to the HL Hazard course. I would say a training module in NS would be very worthwhile for expanding the mod for those who play it and give up. If they do not understand the game, chances are they would try the training module. Where-as now, they just quit saying they don't understand it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 19 2003, 12:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 19 2003, 12:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> By the same tolken, a lot of people have been turned off by NS's steep learning curve. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And I'd like to keep it that way. Sometimes you don't want "a lot of people." And as for the "crowd of NS who like to emphasize their FPS skills." They are the rambos. I will respectfully ask those people to stop playing marines. That's not the way it was intended. If you want to DM go ahead and be an alien. Alien play is already pretty DM-y. The problem with this new mode is that it makes both sides a DM class. Is it just me or did we argue for a long time in S&I that the two teams should be different? What's it going to be now? The only difference is that the marines are all bipedal and can strike from a distance. And the real thing that gets to me is that the new mode will leak into the old mode -- in terms of marine teams being full of rambos and thus making it necessary to completely overpower the marines to make up for a lack of coordination. Not good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Although I was doubtfull at first, this may be a fun break to take from NS instead of it growing stale.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would predict that this gamemode will be VERY popular and increase the total number of servers<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> At first, yes. I give it one month until all major servers remove it by popular demand. 1 or 2 "NS:C only" servers will remain.
Really, all one needs to do is remember the rise and fall of DoD:Para. This thread already mirrors the pre-release squabble of the unrepresentative forumgoers to the letter, including fateful invocations of the CS mantra. Trust me, the regular fans won't decide this. The casual players will, and they are very predictable in their demand for continuity.
<!--QuoteBegin--CaL_FiN+Sep 18 2003, 11:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CaL_FiN @ Sep 18 2003, 11:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, how dare Flayra surprise us with news of new extra free stuff! He should let us know about every little thing he ever considers at the very earliest stages... who wants to be amazed with things anyway? Demand a refund!
Incidentally, I think a system should be put place in NS so you always know what the other team is doing tactics-wise. Surprises suck. </sarcasm><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe if Flayra suprised us with something better than this? Yes, he should let us know what's going on. NS is seriously bugging me because we are kept in the dark about EVERYTHING, no dates, no anything. It was fun leading up to NS, but I would atleast like some time to expect 2.1 which was proposed to be released not that long ago, then retracted.
Your point is?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> My point is that *better* is a completely subjective term... and it's far too early to say whether this is going to be better or worse than NS, whether it's going to detract or strengthen the core game, etc. A lot of people are making a lot of wild predictions based on next-to-no facts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yup, and in all probability, a lot more are completely fine about it. It's the usual thing; the people who like stuff generally won't say anything, they'll sit back and enjoy it. The nay-sayers will trumpet their disgust loudly. It's a vocal minority.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> My points are based upon how NS:C effects other things. A lot of people are saying it's a good idea without thinking any deeper than, "ohhhhhh it's NS DM, COOL!!!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But these supposed points about how it will affect other things all suffer the same basic flaw... that the reasoning is based on no concrete information. Like I said, it's the same as all the people who were whining about the removal of lerk bite, the nerfing of jetpacks etc when 2.0 was still 1.1... They don't know yet, but are still saying.Hence me, and others, saying 'wait and see.'
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->See, Flayra is great, this is true. He's an amazing fellow... the whole team are. Natural Selection is wonderful. But you're talking about creating what is *literally* the perfect game, one that will appeal to *everyone*. That's kinda, you know, impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How about NS 2.0 gets fixed first? This appeals to everybody who plays NS, or they wouldn't be playing it, would they? Don't get me started on "2.0 is perfect," I thought of a whole list of bugs/gameplay problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's hardly a terrible bug-ridden mess, now is it? There are one or two small faults, and one or two balance issues... and, in case you haven't been keeping up with the news on the front page (where Flayra keeps us up to date with what's going on, as you seem to think he doesn't,) you'll know the 'fixed' 2.01 is nearly ready. They haven't been twiddling their thumbs, or devoting time soley to this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If a lot of people feel that an idea won't work, it should be scrapped.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not even going to START on how wrong that sentence is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, you say he should make a game everyone will love, and yet if he does make the best game ever, you don't care?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really, NS:C is out of place in NS... I play NS because of what it is... DM maps/CS style of play doesn't interest me much, that's why I play NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If it really bugs you so very very much, think of it as a completely different game that just happens to use the NS engine, models and weapons. Think of it as the first NS mod. For what it's worth, the people claiming this is going to 'destroy NS' etc are probably being just a tad alarmist.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll say again; wait and see. Don't judge before we even know much about the mode!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We've got nothing else to go on, and nobody has made a post which leads me to think NS:C isn't what I think it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats because it's so early in development... Look, let me give you an analogy.
At the moment, we are children in a nursery. There's this real popular kid called Flayra who always makes cool stuff out of lego. He made this plane, and it was great, and then he improved it, and recently he's been improving it some more. So, we all go over there, and see that he's just picked up the lego box, and stuck two people together. We say, 'what are you building?' He says 'A car.' He can't give you more detail than that because, right now, it's just two pieces of lego stuck together.
Now. Here, we have some kids hanging back to see what the finished car is like, a few saying 'But there isn't enough room on the shelf for a car, teacher will take apart that plane you last made', a couple saying 'cars are stupid, I want you to build another plane! MORE PLANES!' and one or two that just want to grab those two pieces of lego and smash them. This could be the best car *ever*, if you'll just let Flayra build, and don't say the car's ugly based on two pieces of lego!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, you'll probably reply... But it's a case of you having your opinions and me having mine, we're not going to change each other's view points. Flayra won't stop making this, so it's probably a waste of time me even posting why I don't like the idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Strange, how you thought this, and yet still made your reply...
Great idea, canät wait for the realseto try it out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At the moment, we are children in a nursery. There's this real popular kid called Flayra who always makes cool stuff out of lego. He made this plane, and it was great, and then he improved it, and recently he's been improving it some more. So, we all go over there, and see that he's just picked up the lego box, and stuck two people together. We say, 'what are you building?' He says 'A car.' He can't give you more detail than that because, right now, it's just two pieces of lego stuck together.
Now. Here, we have some kids hanging back to see what the finished car is like, a few saying 'But there isn't enough room on the shelf for a car, teacher will take apart that plane you last made', a couple saying 'cars are stupid, I want you to build another plane! MORE PLANES!' and one or two that just want to grab those two pieces of lego and smash them. This could be the best car *ever*, if you'll just let Flayra build, and don't say the car's ugly based on two pieces of lego!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Best description of the currrent situation I have seen so far.
By the way, deathmatch games are still fun. As are team games. As are strategy. I will enjoy NS:C for an alternative gamestyle to NS. I will play both. 'nuff said. PS: AARRRRRRRR!
Forlorn, either i screwed my words like i always do or you misinterpreted them, from my current english grades i'd probably pick option 1. I'll explain my intention furthur by the comment. Also keep in mind that i was being blunt and arrogant to save time.
"NS fighting system sucks. There is really not much skill involved *don't pull out the stories abt ramboing 5 skulks across the wall. It's not needed.* Most people know what i'm talking about here. "
I believe that the marine side fighting system in Ns doesn't have enough tricks and doesn't take all that much skill to jump straight into the hot seat. All the guns are relatively simple and if you've played one first person, it'll just be like this one. *perhaps Flayra's idea was to encourage a more forgiving fighting system for first time players.* Because of its simplicity it has been effective at adding to the real core of the marine side, which is the commanding.
I don't however, believe that the fighting system of the marines by itself would work very effectively. Of three real people who i all convinced to download NS, they all gave their reasons they turned away from it after giving it a good go, was something like: "The marine guns suck!" *one cs player, a wolf player who detests cs and a dod player who i met on the net.* which i interpreted from that, that the marine fighting wasn't great. I myself, also believed that the fighting system wasn't enough to keep me entertained, instead it was the whole team effort and sense of serious victory or defeat which has kept me hooked for nearly a year.
The alien side however is one of the most skill based fighting systems i've ever seen, taking the place of an alien from inside it's mouth is new to just about everyone and takes a couple of times to be able to utilise the creature fully. I believe, if all is the this side will be the better side to play if NS: C shows it face.
Ok i'm sick and really really tired. Got no voice left and can't be bothered fixing this up any further. Cheers. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's true that skilled players will make all the difference, but for marine's, the most important thing is... aim. And pretty much nothing else. Movement is important also, but it's severly limited... Yeah, aim is pretty much the world to marines. It is more fun when you have more factors to improve how you can win.
One thing that might happen on NS:C servers are marines that will learn to ambush aliens... since they should be small, but complex maps, a careful marine player may be able to outsmart an alien player.
Also, look at this: Marines will be able to get jetpacks by level two. This could be an incredably unbalancing factor within NS:C. Jetpacks give marine's the movement skills they need, and I can honestly attest that a good Jetpacker is worth 1000000 times more on the field than a crappy one. Hopefully jetpacks will be the skills the marines are looking for.
Although, I wonder, will getting jetpacks by level two, then HA by level 3 be too strong? Hmm.... what will the aliens have? Level 3 carapace if they want, or gorge ganges at level two (which is just fun and kickass), then lerks by level 3...
I really think jetpacks should come by level 3, that way aliens will have lerks by then and be able to counter.
Ok, after a half-hour of fairly tedious work, I have gone through this entire thread and assigned everyone's views on NS:C into either "For", "Against" or "Uncommitted/Neutral". The results are as follows:
For: 80
Against: 54
Uncommitted/Neutral: 59
*phew* that was a little tireing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now onto the actual topic itself. As I read through these 25 pages something kept nagging me. I hit on what it was towards the end. A lot of people seem to like the idea because Flayra suggested it. I can't help thinking that if some random person had suggested this a few days ago in the S&I forums they would get flamed to a crisp. Now I think Flayra is an intelligant and talented person. Does that mean I won't speak my mind? Hell no. I'm sure that when Flayra threw the whole NS:C question into the community, he didn't want a bunch of yes-men responding. Hence I stand by my view that I am opposed to the idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Sep 19 2003, 10:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 19 2003, 10:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now onto the actual topic itself. As I read through these 25 pages something kept nagging me. I hit on what it was towards the end. A lot of people seem to like the idea because Flayra suggested it. I can't help thinking that if some random person had suggested this a few days ago in the S&I forums they would get flamed to a crisp. Now I think Flayra is an intelligant and talented person. Does that mean I won't speak my mind? Hell no. I'm sure that when Flayra threw the whole NS:C question into the community, he didn't want a bunch of yes-men responding. Hence I stand by my view that I am opposed to the idea. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So your saying it's wrong to trust someone.
Whatever.
I know I just liked it because it was well thought, and was a good idea. I read the entire mapping guidelines, and #cri. might make it's own map to boot.
No I'm not saying it's wrong to trust someone, I'm saying that if someone other than Flayra suggested this it would likely have been shot down faster than an Iraqi MIG-17.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe that the marine side fighting system in Ns doesn't have enough tricks and doesn't take all that much skill to jump straight into the hot seat. All the guns are relatively simple and if you've played one first person, it'll just be like this one. *perhaps Flayra's idea was to encourage a more forgiving fighting system for first time players.* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. I believe that the Marine fighting system is desinged with GROUP tatics in mind. The sum of the parts does not equal the whole, it's greater. The strength of the Marine combat is not embraced by enough people. IMHO people who feel that there aren't enough tricks are those that focus overly much on individual skill rather than squad tatics. NS:C will cater to THESE people, increase the idea that one marine alone is viable (most often not the case) and when they make the expected transition to Classic NS, they will, perhaps, bring with them a greater understanding of how the weapons work; however, they will continue to play NS:C in a Classic game and wonder: why they get owned, why aren't they getting new weapons, and who the hell this n00b (commander) on the voice com is telling them how to play.
If we want to create a game mode that's easier to understand and educational, make maps like the Starcraft trigger maps, where the marines spawn with tech already built, and make them use NS tech, in squads to achive a goal. Give the commander a limited role, not dropping buildings and upgrading tech, but dropping ammo/helath, organising squads, etc. Limit everyones amount of respawning like BF, and have similar tasks to Classic NS.
I still fail to see how NS:C will teach anyone anything that playing Classic NS won't. Those that support it say it will be a great teaching tool, but those same people are the ones that say marine weapons are too simple or not skillful enough.
I cant understand this for the life of me, id much much much rather see the NS team working harder on enhancing NS (the real NS) instead of wasting their time making a mod which essentially removes all of the things that makes NS special, if i wanted to play a good deathmatch id go and play cs where theres more skill involved, if i wanted to play a deathmatch with marines and aliens id play AvP2. The thing is id much rather play a RTFPS, something which is original and genuinely good, instead of trying to make NS a good DM mod, and lets face it, its not.
I personally fear that the mode goes the same way as Para did in DoD...something that was sort of cool, but brought in a lot of absolutely intollerable smarmy gits from other games...because kills count.
Fingers crossed that it doesn't happen like that, there are to many people turning the atmosphere of NS into an arena of l337ism where every other say is "OMG I'm so good, watch me pwn!" already.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> I fear for it
Also I'd just like to say, to all those people that feel NS:C will be perfect for testing your FPS skills...why don't you just go away and play CS, DoD or Quake? Why are we turning a part of NS into something it's not meant to be genre-wise?
I agree completely with Cal Fin's sentiment, that NS:C would most likely bring and teach people to be deathmatchy as marines, and this won't be good for NS, as it won't have taught them anything about how to play as an actual marine. And as far as I can see...it won't change much for aliens...so they might as well be learning in the proper NS game anyway?
*shrugs* I'll try it though, above is all just theory, anyone honestly denouncing it completely, or saying it's going to be the best thing ever, before it's tried...is a fool. Para was put in...then it was taken out...cos it was shite. If NS:C turns the same way I'm sure it won't last long. Unfortunately if it is pants after all, then it will leave the NS community with a sect of people moaning about how their "FPS Skills" can't be shown any more, demanding its return.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sure that when Flayra threw the whole NS:C question into the community, he didn't want a bunch of yes-men responding.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What question? It was an announcement.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Sep 19 2003, 11:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Sep 19 2003, 11:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sure that when Flayra threw the whole NS:C question into the community, he didn't want a bunch of yes-men responding.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What question? It was an announcement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The "Got Comments?" part of the announcement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Natural Selection: Combat is a fast and furious alternate NS gameplay mode, where waves of marines and aliens fight each other in a short timed game. Players are rewarded for kills by gaining access to better equipment, upgrades, abilities or lifeforms. A team wins if it has a higher combined level when the time elapses, or manages to kill the entire team at once. This gameplay mode should excel with small numbers of players, even ones with no experience with NS' commander mode, tech tree or resource model. The team is just starting development on this mode, and we hope to include it in NS v2.1. Got comments?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>slayer111</b>: Your points are as suggestive as mine. You're not right or wrong either. I have my opinions which people will agree with, and people won't. In reality we have to wait until we play it. But there is nothing wrong with making educated assumptions as we have nothing else to go on.
You're not going to change your views and I'm not going to change mine, because I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe.
I am replying again because I couldn't stop myself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Haven't read the whole thread, but I did read more than half. I have thought since the beginning that NS could use a game mode where the matches are finished faster and are playable even with small groups of players. This Combat mode could be it, especially with some objective and story added to scenarios. For example, there could be a mission where marines would try to fight their way to the engine room of an infested ship to rig the engines to self destruct and then evacuate before the whole thing explodes, all the while trying to prevent aliens infesting <i>their</i> ship.
What worries me is the slippery slope of giving the winners better equipment than the losers, but I got to admit that the "classic" NS already got this. Losers need to have enough chances to turn the tables.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kissamies+Sep 19 2003, 03:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kissamies @ Sep 19 2003, 03:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -Losers need to have enough chances to turn the tables. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure they will. In CS when my team becomes down by a fair amount of loses, and money is scarce, I just pick random, not so common, box and sit there for about 45 seconds. Usually someone passes by, not even thinking about looking behind the box - and its pretty much a free kill. I'm sure there will be many ways to do this in NSC. (espcailly if they all spend their "points" on things like shotguns, and not any upgrades. Just let a shotty marine walk by you and then if he has no armor, or armor 1 - it is still very possible to kill him if you land the first hit.)
Ah but classic NS didnt rely totally on equipment, 2.0 doesnt anyway. A good rush from an alien team who are loosing can turn the game on its head totally, and they wouldnt necessarily have to kill any of the overpowered marines.
Also as hypothetically wonderfull as your scenario is, i honestly cant ever see anything like that happening, scenarios always seem so great but rarely work in team based multiplayer games, things like evac on avp2 sucked because the maps had to be tiny in order to accomodate a smaller number of players, while the very concept means u need a long haul with teamwork, but essentially that means that the escaping team has to be far stronger than the chasers, which would only happen in the moovies. (it would just be tedious in NS, think about all those heavies etc)
I don't like the idea at all. I think that people will end up playing NS:C a lot more than NS Classic, and in a process of natural selection (pun intended) all work on NS Classic will stop. Not because NS:C is better but because of popularity.
The problem with Marines and teamwork is one of maturity of players in my opinion. The ability to work in and for a team is a skill that everyone needs to learn at some point in life. It is also a skill a lot harder to aquire than using the mouse to aim. Older players tend to be more mature than younger players and public play has a lot of younger players. Yes, I know, there are plenty of mature AND young players out there. But they are exceptions!
I feel that the NS community consists largely of younger players, and they would rather play and enjoy something like NS:C than NS Classic. That's why I think NS:C will be more popular than NS Classic. And I think the dev team and Flayra wouldn't keep working on a game that only a few people play, especially not when they are developing a game at the same time that a lot more people play. And thus they would probably stop working on NS Classic =(. Unfortunate but understandable.
Whatever happens in the end, I'll do the same thing I did when NS2.0 came out: keep a copy of the client and the server (with patches) around for some good LAN fun.
Great post slayer111. I'm impressed that everyone is able to stay polite and focussed on a topic that so many feel passionately about.
Let me clear a few things up:
- NS: Combat is not a huge amount of work. After spending one day on it, it's playable, and well over 50% done. MvM or AvA on the other hand, represents many weeks of work. We will likely start playtesting it this weekend.
- Wave-spawning will mean more players are fighting together, and the addition of a few new rules (marines win if alien hive is killed, aliens win if time limit is reached) mean come-back victories are more possible then ever. Player skill, group tactics and skill choices should be at least as meaningful as they are in NS, and possibly moreso.
- I don't view NS: Combat as being "mindless", in fact, I can think of tons of cool depth that will come out of it. Marines playing "medic" by spending their levels on healing others, aliens supporting one alien's fast-path to Onos, grouped alien tactics (Gorges healing will get experience quickly), seeing true "super-skulks" (previously impossible upgrade combinations, and increasing health per level will make this possible), mass-cloaking assaults (which the marines will find very difficult to deal with), prevalent JP/LMG, individual motion-tracking will allow marine "scouts", etc. Personally, I can't wait to play this.
- The extra popularity of this game mode may very well bring new options to the NS team, including funding, and financial freedom to move to a new engine, and more popularity with tournament sponsors.
- We are not affiliated with VALVe in any way. Like the rest of NS, this game mode was developed independently, because it was desired, not for any other reason.
- The core NS is not being held up by this. NS v2.01 is essentially done, and will probably be released today or this weekend.
Aliens infiltraded the selfdefending system of the ship. The marines need to repair all parts of it to activate and kill the aliens. So you first need to get that generator working. Than you need to weld some turrets so they work again. After that try to get into the commandstation and activate it. Marines get an advantage. Now Aliens have a hard time to survive. But maybe they could also destroy some other marine techs like the lifesystem so marines get an disadvantage. Of course they would need to be killed to the last.
Comments
What? Have you actually considered that there is another crowd of NS that likes to emphasize their FPS skills as much as their strategy skills? Instead you label it the rambo crowd?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Easy to play? TFC, DOD and CS are the big games with HL, all easy to pick up and all owned by Valve, why? Because they are simple to play. Also, just because you don't agree with a comment, does not make it "crap."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with a comment.. because it makes no sense. NS is right below DoD in terms of popularity.
And the ton of simple HL mods that aren't nearly as popular would be but not limted:
FA
RocketCrowbar
Richochet
etc.
Simple != good or more popular.
It's actually quite the contrary that makes game's popular; the depth. There is a ton of depth to CS, TFC, and DoD, which is why they have remained popular to this day. The depth isn't in the strategy, but the skill aspect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People who would join through NS:C will get a very cut down simplified version of NS... Almost totally different how you do things in normal NS. When they come to normal NS they will be either "turned off by the steep learning curve," or go rambo because they know no better.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. They will apply concepts and put their knowledge to use. This is how humans work. This is a underused tatic in schools as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What happens when a server plays a NS:C map, then it switches to a normal NS map? Some NS:C players will leave, NS players will join and have a game with rambos. This may not be true, but it is a VERY possible scenario. Let's hope servers put what maps they are playing in their title, or the NS team have a solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your scenerio isn't any more likely with NS:C than NS is without NS:C.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know about you, but when I downloaded NS I tried to play the training which didn't work. When a friend of mine tried NS he asked why the training didn't work.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one has ever played the NS training because there is none. Also, training maps aren't really used by the majority of players... esp. in mods... I know that in every mod I've ever played, not once have I looked for at training map.
So long as my old NS rts is still there I don't mind. If it lures all the "non-teamplay types" off the RTS servers then I have no issues with it at all <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ... Hopefully it won't lure EVERYONE off...
It could be fun, I'll have to see I guess. I was kinda hoping that time would be spent expanding on the RTS side of NS, I still remember promises of volumetric flamethrowers. Hopefully this combat version will at least help with basic weapon balancing.
All the best - Tink
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What? Have you actually considered that there is another crowd of NS that likes to emphasize their FPS skills as much as their strategy skills? Instead you label it the rambo crowd?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a difference between somebody who wants to get better at shooting and a person who runs off, does his own thing and doesn't listen to the commander (a rambo.) All of which are encouraged by NS:C, appart from the commander bit, because there isn't one (or is there?) But still, it's a potentially big problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->About the easy to play comment<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're talking about how easy the game is to play, not depth. Most people could pick up the mentioned HL mods and shoot away happily, skill comes naturally and should not be confused with how easy the <i>concept</i> of CS/DOD/TFC is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They will apply concepts and put their knowledge to use. This is how humans work. This is a underused tatic in schools as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They will still have to learn the concepts, the same if they hadn't played NS:C. Imagine a CS player who downloads NS and has a go, chances are he will just run around confused shooting the aliens. What's the difference between a NS:C player and a CS player? Just because the NS:C player has shot an alien before and used an HMG, doesn't mean he understands the concepts of NS. On this point, you'll get more people whining at the comm for "better weapons/armour."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your scenerio isn't any more likely with NS:C than NS is without NS:C.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say there is a greater chance of getting a team full of rambos on a server which plays NS:C and normal NS than joining a normal NS server now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No one has ever played the NS training because there is none. Also, training maps aren't really used by the majority of players... esp. in mods... I know that in every mod I've ever played, not once have I looked for at training map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was a training module in production for NS a while back, I believe Merkaba (ns_hera) was making it. In 1.0 when you clicked on training, you were taken to the HL Hazard course. I would say a training module in NS would be very worthwhile for expanding the mod for those who play it and give up. If they do not understand the game, chances are they would try the training module. Where-as now, they just quit saying they don't understand it.
And I'd like to keep it that way. Sometimes you don't want "a lot of people."
And as for the "crowd of NS who like to emphasize their FPS skills." They are the rambos. I will respectfully ask those people to stop playing marines. That's not the way it was intended. If you want to DM go ahead and be an alien. Alien play is already pretty DM-y.
The problem with this new mode is that it makes both sides a DM class. Is it just me or did we argue for a long time in S&I that the two teams should be different? What's it going to be now? The only difference is that the marines are all bipedal and can strike from a distance.
And the real thing that gets to me is that the new mode will leak into the old mode -- in terms of marine teams being full of rambos and thus making it necessary to completely overpower the marines to make up for a lack of coordination. Not good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would predict that this gamemode will be VERY popular and increase the total number of servers<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At first, yes. I give it one month until all major servers remove it by popular demand. 1 or 2 "NS:C only" servers will remain.
Really, all one needs to do is remember the rise and fall of DoD:Para. This thread already mirrors the pre-release squabble of the unrepresentative forumgoers to the letter, including fateful invocations of the CS mantra. Trust me, the regular fans won't decide this. The casual players will, and they are very predictable in their demand for continuity.
Incidentally, I think a system should be put place in NS so you always know what the other team is doing tactics-wise. Surprises suck. </sarcasm><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe if Flayra suprised us with something better than this? Yes, he should let us know what's going on. NS is seriously bugging me because we are kept in the dark about EVERYTHING, no dates, no anything. It was fun leading up to NS, but I would atleast like some time to expect 2.1 which was proposed to be released not that long ago, then retracted.
Your point is?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point is that *better* is a completely subjective term... and it's far too early to say whether this is going to be better or worse than NS, whether it's going to detract or strengthen the core game, etc. A lot of people are making a lot of wild predictions based on next-to-no facts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yup, and in all probability, a lot more are completely fine about it. It's the usual thing; the people who like stuff generally won't say anything, they'll sit back and enjoy it. The nay-sayers will trumpet their disgust loudly. It's a vocal minority.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My points are based upon how NS:C effects other things. A lot of people are saying it's a good idea without thinking any deeper than, "ohhhhhh it's NS DM, COOL!!!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But these supposed points about how it will affect other things all suffer the same basic flaw... that the reasoning is based on no concrete information. Like I said, it's the same as all the people who were whining about the removal of lerk bite, the nerfing of jetpacks etc when 2.0 was still 1.1... They don't know yet, but are still saying.Hence me, and others, saying 'wait and see.'
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->See, Flayra is great, this is true. He's an amazing fellow... the whole team are. Natural Selection is wonderful. But you're talking about creating what is *literally* the perfect game, one that will appeal to *everyone*. That's kinda, you know, impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about NS 2.0 gets fixed first? This appeals to everybody who plays NS, or they wouldn't be playing it, would they? Don't get me started on "2.0 is perfect," I thought of a whole list of bugs/gameplay problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hardly a terrible bug-ridden mess, now is it? There are one or two small faults, and one or two balance issues... and, in case you haven't been keeping up with the news on the front page (where Flayra keeps us up to date with what's going on, as you seem to think he doesn't,) you'll know the 'fixed' 2.01 is nearly ready. They haven't been twiddling their thumbs, or devoting time soley to this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If a lot of people feel that an idea won't work, it should be scrapped.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even going to START on how wrong that sentence is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, you say he should make a game everyone will love, and yet if he does make the best game ever, you don't care?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, NS:C is out of place in NS... I play NS because of what it is... DM maps/CS style of play doesn't interest me much, that's why I play NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it really bugs you so very very much, think of it as a completely different game that just happens to use the NS engine, models and weapons. Think of it as the first NS mod. For what it's worth, the people claiming this is going to 'destroy NS' etc are probably being just a tad alarmist.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll say again; wait and see. Don't judge before we even know much about the mode!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We've got nothing else to go on, and nobody has made a post which leads me to think NS:C isn't what I think it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats because it's so early in development... Look, let me give you an analogy.
At the moment, we are children in a nursery. There's this real popular kid called Flayra who always makes cool stuff out of lego. He made this plane, and it was great, and then he improved it, and recently he's been improving it some more. So, we all go over there, and see that he's just picked up the lego box, and stuck two people together. We say, 'what are you building?' He says 'A car.' He can't give you more detail than that because, right now, it's just two pieces of lego stuck together.
Now. Here, we have some kids hanging back to see what the finished car is like, a few saying 'But there isn't enough room on the shelf for a car, teacher will take apart that plane you last made', a couple saying 'cars are stupid, I want you to build another plane! MORE PLANES!' and one or two that just want to grab those two pieces of lego and smash them. This could be the best car *ever*, if you'll just let Flayra build, and don't say the car's ugly based on two pieces of lego!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, you'll probably reply... But it's a case of you having your opinions and me having mine, we're not going to change each other's view points. Flayra won't stop making this, so it's probably a waste of time me even posting why I don't like the idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strange, how you thought this, and yet still made your reply...
Now. Here, we have some kids hanging back to see what the finished car is like, a few saying 'But there isn't enough room on the shelf for a car, teacher will take apart that plane you last made', a couple saying 'cars are stupid, I want you to build another plane! MORE PLANES!' and one or two that just want to grab those two pieces of lego and smash them. This could be the best car *ever*, if you'll just let Flayra build, and don't say the car's ugly based on two pieces of lego!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best description of the currrent situation I have seen so far.
By the way, deathmatch games are still fun. As are team games. As are strategy. I will enjoy NS:C for an alternative gamestyle to NS. I will play both.
'nuff said.
PS:
AARRRRRRRR!
"NS fighting system sucks. There is really not much skill involved *don't pull out the stories abt ramboing 5 skulks across the wall. It's not needed.* Most people know what i'm talking about here. "
I believe that the marine side fighting system in Ns doesn't have enough tricks and doesn't take all that much skill to jump straight into the hot seat. All the guns are relatively simple and if you've played one first person, it'll just be like this one. *perhaps Flayra's idea was to encourage a more forgiving fighting system for first time players.* Because of its simplicity it has been effective at adding to the real core of the marine side, which is the commanding.
I don't however, believe that the fighting system of the marines by itself would work very effectively. Of three real people who i all convinced to download NS, they all gave their reasons they turned away from it after giving it a good go, was something like: "The marine guns suck!" *one cs player, a wolf player who detests cs and a dod player who i met on the net.* which i interpreted from that, that the marine fighting wasn't great. I myself, also believed that the fighting system wasn't enough to keep me entertained, instead it was the whole team effort and sense of serious victory or defeat which has kept me hooked for nearly a year.
The alien side however is one of the most skill based fighting systems i've ever seen, taking the place of an alien from inside it's mouth is new to just about everyone and takes a couple of times to be able to utilise the creature fully. I believe, if all is the this side will be the better side to play if NS: C shows it face.
Ok i'm sick and really really tired. Got no voice left and can't be bothered fixing this up any further. Cheers. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's true that skilled players will make all the difference, but for marine's, the most important thing is... aim. And pretty much nothing else. Movement is important also, but it's severly limited... Yeah, aim is pretty much the world to marines. It is more fun when you have more factors to improve how you can win.
One thing that might happen on NS:C servers are marines that will learn to ambush aliens... since they should be small, but complex maps, a careful marine player may be able to outsmart an alien player.
Also, look at this: Marines will be able to get jetpacks by level two. This could be an incredably unbalancing factor within NS:C. Jetpacks give marine's the movement skills they need, and I can honestly attest that a good Jetpacker is worth 1000000 times more on the field than a crappy one. Hopefully jetpacks will be the skills the marines are looking for.
Although, I wonder, will getting jetpacks by level two, then HA by level 3 be too strong? Hmm.... what will the aliens have? Level 3 carapace if they want, or gorge ganges at level two (which is just fun and kickass), then lerks by level 3...
I really think jetpacks should come by level 3, that way aliens will have lerks by then and be able to counter.
For: 80
Against: 54
Uncommitted/Neutral: 59
*phew* that was a little tireing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now onto the actual topic itself. As I read through these 25 pages something kept nagging me. I hit on what it was towards the end. A lot of people seem to like the idea because Flayra suggested it. I can't help thinking that if some random person had suggested this a few days ago in the S&I forums they would get flamed to a crisp. Now I think Flayra is an intelligant and talented person. Does that mean I won't speak my mind? Hell no. I'm sure that when Flayra threw the whole NS:C question into the community, he didn't want a bunch of yes-men responding. Hence I stand by my view that I am opposed to the idea.
So your saying it's wrong to trust someone.
Whatever.
I know I just liked it because it was well thought, and was a good idea. I read the entire mapping guidelines, and #cri. might make it's own map to boot.
Whatever.
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No I'm not saying it's wrong to trust someone, I'm saying that if someone other than Flayra suggested this it would likely have been shot down faster than an Iraqi MIG-17.
I disagree. I believe that the Marine fighting system is desinged with GROUP tatics in mind. The sum of the parts does not equal the whole, it's greater. The strength of the Marine combat is not embraced by enough people. IMHO people who feel that there aren't enough tricks are those that focus overly much on individual skill rather than squad tatics. NS:C will cater to THESE people, increase the idea that one marine alone is viable (most often not the case) and when they make the expected transition to Classic NS, they will, perhaps, bring with them a greater understanding of how the weapons work; however, they will continue to play NS:C in a Classic game and wonder: why they get owned, why aren't they getting new weapons, and who the hell this n00b (commander) on the voice com is telling them how to play.
If we want to create a game mode that's easier to understand and educational, make maps like the Starcraft trigger maps, where the marines spawn with tech already built, and make them use NS tech, in squads to achive a goal. Give the commander a limited role, not dropping buildings and upgrading tech, but dropping ammo/helath, organising squads, etc. Limit everyones amount of respawning like BF, and have similar tasks to Classic NS.
I still fail to see how NS:C will teach anyone anything that playing Classic NS won't. Those that support it say it will be a great teaching tool, but those same people are the ones that say marine weapons are too simple or not skillful enough.
The thing is id much rather play a RTFPS, something which is original and genuinely good, instead of trying to make NS a good DM mod, and lets face it, its not.
Genuinely worrying stuff <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Fingers crossed that it doesn't happen like that, there are to many people turning the atmosphere of NS into an arena of l337ism where every other say is "OMG I'm so good, watch me pwn!" already.
-Lee
I really do
I agree completely with Cal Fin's sentiment, that NS:C would most likely bring and teach people to be deathmatchy as marines, and this won't be good for NS, as it won't have taught them anything about how to play as an actual marine. And as far as I can see...it won't change much for aliens...so they might as well be learning in the proper NS game anyway?
*shrugs* I'll try it though, above is all just theory, anyone honestly denouncing it completely, or saying it's going to be the best thing ever, before it's tried...is a fool. Para was put in...then it was taken out...cos it was shite. If NS:C turns the same way I'm sure it won't last long. Unfortunately if it is pants after all, then it will leave the NS community with a sect of people moaning about how their "FPS Skills" can't be shown any more, demanding its return.
-Lee
What question? It was an announcement.
What question? It was an announcement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "Got Comments?" part of the announcement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Natural Selection: Combat is a fast and furious alternate NS gameplay mode, where waves of marines and aliens fight each other in a short timed game. Players are rewarded for kills by gaining access to better equipment, upgrades, abilities or lifeforms. A team wins if it has a higher combined level when the time elapses, or manages to kill the entire team at once. This gameplay mode should excel with small numbers of players, even ones with no experience with NS' commander mode, tech tree or resource model. The team is just starting development on this mode, and we hope to include it in NS v2.1. Got comments?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not going to change your views and I'm not going to change mine, because I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe.
I am replying again because I couldn't stop myself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
What worries me is the slippery slope of giving the winners better equipment than the losers, but I got to admit that the "classic" NS already got this. Losers need to have enough chances to turn the tables.
I'm sure they will. In CS when my team becomes down by a fair amount of loses, and money is scarce, I just pick random, not so common, box and sit there for about 45 seconds. Usually someone passes by, not even thinking about looking behind the box - and its pretty much a free kill. I'm sure there will be many ways to do this in NSC. (espcailly if they all spend their "points" on things like shotguns, and not any upgrades. Just let a shotty marine walk by you and then if he has no armor, or armor 1 - it is still very possible to kill him if you land the first hit.)
Also as hypothetically wonderfull as your scenario is, i honestly cant ever see anything like that happening, scenarios always seem so great but rarely work in team based multiplayer games, things like evac on avp2 sucked because the maps had to be tiny in order to accomodate a smaller number of players, while the very concept means u need a long haul with teamwork, but essentially that means that the escaping team has to be far stronger than the chasers, which would only happen in the moovies. (it would just be tedious in NS, think about all those heavies etc)
I don't like the idea at all. I think that people will end up playing NS:C a lot more than NS Classic, and in a process of natural selection (pun intended) all work on NS Classic will stop. Not because NS:C is better but because of popularity.
The problem with Marines and teamwork is one of maturity of players in my opinion. The ability to work in and for a team is a skill that everyone needs to learn at some point in life. It is also a skill a lot harder to aquire than using the mouse to aim. Older players tend to be more mature than younger players and public play has a lot of younger players. Yes, I know, there are plenty of mature AND young players out there. But they are exceptions!
I feel that the NS community consists largely of younger players, and they would rather play and enjoy something like NS:C than NS Classic. That's why I think NS:C will be more popular than NS Classic. And I think the dev team and Flayra wouldn't keep working on a game that only a few people play, especially not when they are developing a game at the same time that a lot more people play. And thus they would probably stop working on NS Classic =(. Unfortunate but understandable.
Whatever happens in the end, I'll do the same thing I did when NS2.0 came out: keep a copy of the client and the server (with patches) around for some good LAN fun.
Let me clear a few things up:
- NS: Combat is not a huge amount of work. After spending one day on it, it's playable, and well over 50% done. MvM or AvA on the other hand, represents many weeks of work. We will likely start playtesting it this weekend.
- Wave-spawning will mean more players are fighting together, and the addition of a few new rules (marines win if alien hive is killed, aliens win if time limit is reached) mean come-back victories are more possible then ever. Player skill, group tactics and skill choices should be at least as meaningful as they are in NS, and possibly moreso.
- I don't view NS: Combat as being "mindless", in fact, I can think of tons of cool depth that will come out of it. Marines playing "medic" by spending their levels on healing others, aliens supporting one alien's fast-path to Onos, grouped alien tactics (Gorges healing will get experience quickly), seeing true "super-skulks" (previously impossible upgrade combinations, and increasing health per level will make this possible), mass-cloaking assaults (which the marines will find very difficult to deal with), prevalent JP/LMG, individual motion-tracking will allow marine "scouts", etc. Personally, I can't wait to play this.
- The extra popularity of this game mode may very well bring new options to the NS team, including funding, and financial freedom to move to a new engine, and more popularity with tournament sponsors.
- We are not affiliated with VALVe in any way. Like the rest of NS, this game mode was developed independently, because it was desired, not for any other reason.
- The core NS is not being held up by this. NS v2.01 is essentially done, and will probably be released today or this weekend.
If so you could really do some RPing (Lone mairnes on spaceship fighting off aliens,don't kill them in time you get swarmed over!:D Only an example)
I am really looking forward to this,let's just hope it doesn't disappoint the majority....sometimes it happens you know
I could think of things like:
Aliens infiltraded the selfdefending system of the ship. The marines need to repair all parts of it to activate and kill the aliens. So you first need to get that generator working. Than you need to weld some turrets so they work again. After that try to get into the commandstation and activate it. Marines get an advantage. Now Aliens have a hard time to survive. But maybe they could also destroy some other marine techs like the lifesystem so marines get an disadvantage. Of course they would need to be killed to the last.