I hope you can't be serious. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Last time I checked, a majority of Widow is rooms. Maybe the screenshots are just bad angles or something?
Its all mainly rooms, not that many corridors. Pics can look its corridors but i assure you its rooms, lots of them. Keep up the good work Zazi and finish the map asap!!
<!--QuoteBegin--Zazi+Sep 18 2003, 11:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zazi @ Sep 18 2003, 11:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I hope you can't be serious. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Last time I checked, a majority of Widow is rooms. Maybe the screenshots are just bad angles or something? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry, but you are acting ignorant, sir.
Your map consists of nothing but uninspired rooms interconnected by hallways.
Like I said, it's all nicely mapped out with a nice brushwork, but your map is offering nothing new whatsoever to the world of NS.
Now you have one of two choices. Either <i>read</i> and pick up on the criticism offered to you, or you can do the old "ooh, ego got hurt, let's retaliate". Choice is yours.
Er ubehagelig are you someone very sad, can't make levels or flaming someone because of a personal vendetta; or starting a vendetta up? Look at the other comments, I even suggest someone uploads a dev_overview 2 screenshot on the map, then we can all look at how much % of the map is rooms, and is corridors, because I disagree with your comments - and your ignorant views.
Oh snap. What's up with the 'pi$sing contest mood'?
And, I'm sorry, but you don't get it either, kind sir. I can <i>see</i> corridors, I can <i>see</i> rooms. Quit trying to prove to me they are there, I see them perfectly well.
The point I am trying to get through is that I want to see <b>something else</b> than uninspired corridors and rooms.
Just, tell us: what new material does this map bring to the table? What is interesting and relevant, what about it improves the standard of NS maps? If your mapping does not raise the bar then your time is wasted.
And don't tell me it has some custom textures, or that it "plays really well". It has the same look and feel as so many other NS maps that have been made in the past, and so what if it plays well---playability should be a granted in mapping, so it shouldn't even enter the discussion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh snap. What's up with the 'pi$sing contest mood'?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are, for coming into peoples threads and pretty much telling them that theres absolutely nothing "special" about our maps, that they are completely uninspired peices of ****. How would you like it if you've been working on a map for months on end (zazi has been working on his for 1.5 years), and then to have some jackass come along and bash it around not giving ANY kind of helpful critisism. Hell just for you I'll make a map with rooms only you assfuck.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just, tell us: what new material does this map bring to the table? What is interesting and relevant, what about it improves the standard of NS maps? If your mapping does not raise the bar then your time is wasted.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ginsengavenger, dont join his masquerade.
I know quite well how long maps take to build---don't think I'm not technically qualified to critique.
Admittedly I have rather high standards and expectations, but without these what do you have? Little but rehashed themes and tired settings.
To put it bluntly, this map is uninspired---as are so many others that I have seen. On a superficial level it's well constructed and solidly textured and lit. That is to be expected. On a deeper, far more fundamental and much more important level, it does not instill any sense of place in me, suprise me in any way, or even pique my interest. It crumples where it stands and falls by the wayside.
Now you can walk away from this with a sense of duty to yourself and to others to do <i>better</i>, to rise to the challenge of building a truly engaging map in your next project..... or you can keep up with the defensive attitudes and sink deeper into your closeminded hole of masturbatory ego-stroking.
I think it might be a good idea for mappers to have moderator rights in their map preview threads. That way they could throw out the snobby **** who wander in and start going on about the unoriginality and uninspiredness of your map without any concrete criticism to offer.
In my opinion widow looks great and it seems I'm not alone with my opinion. You two, on the other hand seem to be somewhat outnumbered.
Edit: please don't reply. I'm this close to deleting my own post since it just contributes to the derail of this thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...who wander in and start going on about the unoriginality and uninspiredness of your map without any concrete criticism to offer.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't even gotten around to offering viable suggestions as to how to improve the map, because I'm facing a crowd of hurt egos going <i>"Lalalalalala I can't hear you lalalala everything is fine lalalala"</i>.
None of you <i>want</i> to hear about how this map could possibly flawed and how something might be improved.
Me suggesting something could be improved is downright wrecking your man-train of shoulder patting goodness.
If one isn't ready to accept criticism, positive or negative, you shouldn't post your map on a public board.
And stop acting like we are the ones stirring shít up. We aren't the ones freaking out, you are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->.... without any concrete criticism to offer.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In this case there is no concrete criticism to give: the map is terminally flawed from the outset. Corridors and rooms are all well and good---they can (and often must) be used to interconnect more significant and stimulating areas of the map, for visblocking purposes.
When the entire map is comprised of these interconnecting hallways and lacking in any stimulating areas, there's little we can say but "do better next time", as rebuilding this decent map into a <i>great</i> one would be more work than starting over from scratch.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->.... since it just contributes to the derail of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So a thread is only on-topic if every reply is tripping over the last just to praise the map and fondle the mapper? I beg to differ.
If I was to give constructive criticism, I would say this: Your map is of a warship but I don't see anything showing it as such. Make one of the rooms a weapon cache (not weapons to pick up, but storage) or a firing control / missile dock, etc.
If I was to give positive reinforcement, I would say this: The map looks really good. The use of textures and brushwork is incredible. The problem of the map being 'boring' can be fixed with little details (such as described above). Don't give up on the map.
Remember, An interesting map doesn't doesn't mean that people will like it. The atmosphere and style of ns_mineshaft really impressed me, but the players I play with on multiple servers on a whole <i>hate</i> it. Remember, this is a warship, not a cruise line. It doesn't have to have blinking lights and holograms every fifteen feet because that's not what it's purpose is.
Hmmm this thread makes no sense to me. As was said somewhere, if you post your work on a public mapping forum then you must accept critisicm. It's just a shame that you have listened and chosen to ignore the critisicm offered. All said and done the people defending this map from whatever standpoint have been nothing but rude and immature. The comments from ubehagelig and ginsengavenger are perfectly valid, it makes sense that a map has something special that would set it apart from the rest. Why the hell are you content to let your map fade into the sea of other maps that look exactly the same? It has so much untapped potential it makes me cry, I'm not too much of a creative person, more of a hands on person, so I can't suggest what exactly the map is missing. But that missing 'something' is very important, as it's true, all I'm seeing here are hallways, and nothing to really break it all up.
The first reason why I won't criticize the overall feel and character of any map based on screenshots is that IMO no matter the amount of screenshots you see, you still can't tell how it's going to play and feel when you are running the map. The second reason is that to me it's an interesting and playable layout that makes a map, not interesting locales, although they are most welcome. Widow's screenshots may not showcase an instant "this place I'll remember", but they showcase great theme, unified style and potential for an eclipse like map, where the whole is more than the sum of its parts.
Clearly, there is a clash of two different schools of thought and probably both sides could've handled this better. Let's not continue this farce any further, I still don't like the way you present your opinions and I still don't buy them, but it's all the same to me. I won't participate on this derail any further.
good playability and gameplay should never be 'worked into' a map, it should come as standard. It should not be a selling point on which you pimp a map. Although don't get me wrong, of course it's as equally important as a good looking map, there is no reason why a map should not have both, an excellent layout meaning it plays well and an overall sexy theme and look aesthetically......So what is the problem in pointing out when a map DOESN'T have one of these things working correctly?
<!--QuoteBegin---Driftwood-+Sep 19 2003, 06:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-Driftwood- @ Sep 19 2003, 06:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The first reason why I won't criticize the overall feel and character of any map based on screenshots is that IMO no matter the amount of screenshots you see, you still can't tell how it's going to play and feel when you are running the map. The second reason is that to me it's an interesting and playable layout that makes a map, not interesting locales, although they are most welcome. Widow's screenshots may not showcase an instant "this place I'll remember", but they showcase great theme, unified style and potential for an eclipse like map, where the whole is more than the sum of its parts.
Clearly, there is a clash of two different schools of thought and probably both sides could've handled this better. Let's not continue this farce any further, I still don't like the way you present your opinions and I still don't buy them, but it's all the same to me. I won't participate on this derail any further.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are being a hypocrite.
You agree the map lacks in specific areas, but still we are the bad guys for pointing exactly that out?
This map may play well, and the brushwork and lighting may be good. But none of that is what we are discussing here.
And stop talking about a "derail" of the thread. We tried to get valid a point through about the downsides of this map. We weren't the ones using profanity. We weren't the ones directing personal attacks towards fellow forum members.
So stop acting like you are sticking up for the "little guy" and his map. The truth of the matter is that he could make a map that far succeeds the quality level of current official maps if he set his mind to it.
But apparently he is settling for something less, and all of you are mistakingly cheering him on.
<!--QuoteBegin--ubehagelig+Sep 20 2003, 03:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ubehagelig @ Sep 20 2003, 03:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are being a hypocrite.
You agree the map lacks in specific areas, but still we are the bad guys for pointing exactly that out?
This map may play well, and the brushwork and lighting may be good. But none of that is what we are discussing here.
And stop talking about a "derail" of the thread. We tried to get valid a point through about the downsides of this map. We weren't the ones using profanity. We weren't the ones directing personal attacks towards fellow forum members.
So stop acting like you are sticking up for the "little guy" and his map. The truth of the matter is that he could make a map that far succeeds the quality level of current official maps if he set his mind to it.
But apparently he is settling for something less, and all of you are mistakingly cheering him on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm tired, it's 3:30AM. Shouldn't reply, but what the heck.
1. I don't have a problem with your criticisim as much as I have a problem with the way you present it. You do it with an air of superiority and in an insulting manner. Therefore the mild profanity, which was used in the sense "irritating, know-it-all snob".
2. I do not agree that Widow is just hallways and rooms with nothing special. I won't make that judgement based on screenshots. Map looks in my opinion good, it has a strong style and different areas feel like they belong to the same map, just like they should. I don't feel it's my place to give advice on map's overall theme and character based on some screenshots I've seen. It would be in my opinion snobby, superior and demeaning to the mapper's talents. "OK, you've been working with the map for 1,5 years, but I saw some screens of it and it was clear to me that it has no soul." I want to see the final product, run around it and see how it feels. I can't do it based on screenshots, therefore I refuse to accept you labeling me as a hypocrite.
3. Derail as a term isn't something aimed at you. I use it to describe this mess that has stemmed from our reaction to your IMO rude criticism. So it is largely self-criticising term.
4. I'm done here. If there is more to discuss about the matter, I hope you will use private messages, which I will ignore. Not out of spite, but because I predict myself being too full of this stupid argument to answer. If you interpret this as me giving up and admitting my defeat then you are welcome to call me a martyr and a sore loser.
<i>Enough Derailing</i>. I do not want to see Zazi's ORIGINAL map (he has been at Widow for some time now, Ginsengloveshisthesaurus <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ) handcapped by such a thing as a simple derail of his very own thread. please - keep the arguing to PM's.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cutedge+Sep 19 2003, 02:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cutedge @ Sep 19 2003, 02:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It looks good to me. I'd like to play it.
If I was to give constructive criticism, I would say this: Your map is of a warship but I don't see anything showing it as such. Make one of the rooms a weapon cache (not weapons to pick up, but storage) or a firing control / missile dock, etc.
If I was to give positive reinforcement, I would say this: The map looks really good. The use of textures and brushwork is incredible. The problem of the map being 'boring' can be fixed with little details (such as described above). Don't give up on the map.
Remember, An interesting map doesn't doesn't mean that people will like it. The atmosphere and style of ns_mineshaft really impressed me, but the players I play with on multiple servers on a whole <i>hate</i> it. Remember, this is a warship, not a cruise line. It doesn't have to have blinking lights and holograms every fifteen feet because that's not what it's purpose is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think he has made the most useful post yet.
To the two trolls (yes trolls), you offered "critsicsm" yet not once did you tell him exactly what you believe is "inspiring"....
I got it!
Lets make a fun map instead! Lets call it jetpacks-o-fun!
Er, lets just stick with sometallguys idea instead =)
Keep up the good work on the map man, Widow is looking nice.
ubehagelig: Most people give <b>constructive criticism</b>. Most people that give out constructive criticism are usually the higher skilled level designer or a frequent level releaser. You seem to be neither, and you seem not to criticise maps but to <b>put them down</b>. Get out the habbit. Be nice, as Zazi and the rest of us do not deserve some one like you to post obnoxious and rude comments to their map, if anything it <b>degrades</b> the ns community. If you have nothing nice to say, do not say it at all.
Comments
I'm sorry, but you are acting ignorant, sir.
Your map consists of nothing but uninspired rooms interconnected by hallways.
Like I said, it's all nicely mapped out with a nice brushwork, but your map is offering nothing new whatsoever to the world of NS.
Now you have one of two choices. Either <i>read</i> and pick up on the criticism offered to you, or you can do the old "ooh, ego got hurt, let's retaliate". Choice is yours.
And, I'm sorry, but you don't get it either, kind sir. I can <i>see</i> corridors, I can <i>see</i> rooms. Quit trying to prove to me they are there, I see them perfectly well.
The point I am trying to get through is that I want to see <b>something else</b> than uninspired corridors and rooms.
And don't tell me it has some custom textures, or that it "plays really well". It has the same look and feel as so many other NS maps that have been made in the past, and so what if it plays well---playability should be a granted in mapping, so it shouldn't even enter the discussion.
You are, for coming into peoples threads and pretty much telling them that theres absolutely nothing "special" about our maps, that they are completely uninspired peices of ****. How would you like it if you've been working on a map for months on end (zazi has been working on his for 1.5 years), and then to have some jackass come along and bash it around not giving ANY kind of helpful critisism.
Hell just for you I'll make a map with rooms only you assfuck.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just, tell us: what new material does this map bring to the table? What is interesting and relevant, what about it improves the standard of NS maps? If your mapping does not raise the bar then your time is wasted.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ginsengavenger, dont join his masquerade.
Oh well.
Are we back to talking about the map, or do others feel the urge to throw a tantrum?
Admittedly I have rather high standards and expectations, but without these what do you have? Little but rehashed themes and tired settings.
To put it bluntly, this map is uninspired---as are so many others that I have seen. On a superficial level it's well constructed and solidly textured and lit. That is to be expected. On a deeper, far more fundamental and much more important level, it does not instill any sense of place in me, suprise me in any way, or even pique my interest. It crumples where it stands and falls by the wayside.
Now you can walk away from this with a sense of duty to yourself and to others to do <i>better</i>, to rise to the challenge of building a truly engaging map in your next project..... or you can keep up with the defensive attitudes and sink deeper into your closeminded hole of masturbatory ego-stroking.
In my opinion widow looks great and it seems I'm not alone with my opinion. You two, on the other hand seem to be somewhat outnumbered.
Edit: please don't reply. I'm this close to deleting my own post since it just contributes to the derail of this thread.
You know how I feel about widow, MAKE THE TUBE ACCESSIBLE! (not tubegirl)
And yeah, dude, awesome. I'm famous in that screenshot.
I haven't even gotten around to offering viable suggestions as to how to improve the map, because I'm facing a crowd of hurt egos going <i>"Lalalalalala I can't hear you lalalala everything is fine lalalala"</i>.
None of you <i>want</i> to hear about how this map could possibly flawed and how something might be improved.
Me suggesting something could be improved is downright wrecking your man-train of shoulder patting goodness.
If one isn't ready to accept criticism, positive or negative, you shouldn't post your map on a public board.
And stop acting like we are the ones stirring shít up. We aren't the ones freaking out, you are.
In this case there is no concrete criticism to give: the map is terminally flawed from the outset. Corridors and rooms are all well and good---they can (and often must) be used to interconnect more significant and stimulating areas of the map, for visblocking purposes.
When the entire map is comprised of these interconnecting hallways and lacking in any stimulating areas, there's little we can say but "do better next time", as rebuilding this decent map into a <i>great</i> one would be more work than starting over from scratch.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->.... since it just contributes to the derail of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So a thread is only on-topic if every reply is tripping over the last just to praise the map and fondle the mapper? I beg to differ.
/me dies
If I was to give constructive criticism, I would say this:
Your map is of a warship but I don't see anything showing it as such. Make one of the rooms a weapon cache (not weapons to pick up, but storage) or a firing control / missile dock, etc.
If I was to give positive reinforcement, I would say this:
The map looks really good. The use of textures and brushwork is incredible. The problem of the map being 'boring' can be fixed with little details (such as described above). Don't give up on the map.
Remember, An interesting map doesn't doesn't mean that people will like it. The atmosphere and style of ns_mineshaft really impressed me, but the players I play with on multiple servers on a whole <i>hate</i> it. Remember, this is a warship, not a cruise line. It doesn't have to have blinking lights and holograms every fifteen feet because that's not what it's purpose is.
Clearly, there is a clash of two different schools of thought and probably both sides could've handled this better. Let's not continue this farce any further, I still don't like the way you present your opinions and I still don't buy them, but it's all the same to me. I won't participate on this derail any further.
Clearly, there is a clash of two different schools of thought and probably both sides could've handled this better. Let's not continue this farce any further, I still don't like the way you present your opinions and I still don't buy them, but it's all the same to me. I won't participate on this derail any further.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are being a hypocrite.
You agree the map lacks in specific areas, but still we are the bad guys for pointing exactly that out?
This map may play well, and the brushwork and lighting may be good. But none of that is what we are discussing here.
And stop talking about a "derail" of the thread. We tried to get valid a point through about the downsides of this map. We weren't the ones using profanity. We weren't the ones directing personal attacks towards fellow forum members.
So stop acting like you are sticking up for the "little guy" and his map. The truth of the matter is that he could make a map that far succeeds the quality level of current official maps if he set his mind to it.
But apparently he is settling for something less, and all of you are mistakingly cheering him on.
You agree the map lacks in specific areas, but still we are the bad guys for pointing exactly that out?
This map may play well, and the brushwork and lighting may be good. But none of that is what we are discussing here.
And stop talking about a "derail" of the thread. We tried to get valid a point through about the downsides of this map. We weren't the ones using profanity. We weren't the ones directing personal attacks towards fellow forum members.
So stop acting like you are sticking up for the "little guy" and his map. The truth of the matter is that he could make a map that far succeeds the quality level of current official maps if he set his mind to it.
But apparently he is settling for something less, and all of you are mistakingly cheering him on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm tired, it's 3:30AM. Shouldn't reply, but what the heck.
1. I don't have a problem with your criticisim as much as I have a problem with the way you present it. You do it with an air of superiority and in an insulting manner. Therefore the mild profanity, which was used in the sense "irritating, know-it-all snob".
2. I do not agree that Widow is just hallways and rooms with nothing special. I won't make that judgement based on screenshots. Map looks in my opinion good, it has a strong style and different areas feel like they belong to the same map, just like they should. I don't feel it's my place to give advice on map's overall theme and character based on some screenshots I've seen. It would be in my opinion snobby, superior and demeaning to the mapper's talents. "OK, you've been working with the map for 1,5 years, but I saw some screens of it and it was clear to me that it has no soul." I want to see the final product, run around it and see how it feels. I can't do it based on screenshots, therefore I refuse to accept you labeling me as a hypocrite.
3. Derail as a term isn't something aimed at you. I use it to describe this mess that has stemmed from our reaction to your IMO rude criticism. So it is largely self-criticising term.
4. I'm done here. If there is more to discuss about the matter, I hope you will use private messages, which I will ignore. Not out of spite, but because I predict myself being too full of this stupid argument to answer. If you interpret this as me giving up and admitting my defeat then you are welcome to call me a martyr and a sore loser.
We sure don't want to hear it...
If I was to give constructive criticism, I would say this:
Your map is of a warship but I don't see anything showing it as such. Make one of the rooms a weapon cache (not weapons to pick up, but storage) or a firing control / missile dock, etc.
If I was to give positive reinforcement, I would say this:
The map looks really good. The use of textures and brushwork is incredible. The problem of the map being 'boring' can be fixed with little details (such as described above). Don't give up on the map.
Remember, An interesting map doesn't doesn't mean that people will like it. The atmosphere and style of ns_mineshaft really impressed me, but the players I play with on multiple servers on a whole <i>hate</i> it. Remember, this is a warship, not a cruise line. It doesn't have to have blinking lights and holograms every fifteen feet because that's not what it's purpose is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he has made the most useful post yet.
To the two trolls (yes trolls), you offered "critsicsm" yet not once did you tell him exactly what you believe is "inspiring"....
I got it!
Lets make a fun map instead! Lets call it jetpacks-o-fun!
Er, lets just stick with sometallguys idea instead =)
Keep up the good work on the map man, Widow is looking nice.
Here is me masterpiece inspired by the "omg that maps bad cause it uses corridors and rooms" people