<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyway, I don't think the reason for the current state of NS pub games is relevant right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is very relevent. Flay said,
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS:C is to allow NS to grow properly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't have a problem with NS:C but when it comes to NS:C helping NS to grow properly... as I have posted there are many things we could have done to help NS grow properly (which we did not do) without creating a whole new gametype.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not everyone is attracted to the idea of such a strictly team-based game, and I think the attitude towards more action-oriented games in this community is rather unhealthy as we are seeing now... There's no reason to look down on people who would rather play a more Counterstrike/WC3 mod type of game than an FPS/RTS. I think some people take so much pride in being part of what they perceive to be a more "intelligent" game community that they refuse to accept the possibility of attracting "CS players" to the game as well, even if it's in a completely separate game mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Teamplayers looking down on DMers or RTSers looking down on FPSers. Elitism is bad, whatever manifestation it takes. Some people are rather emotional about this change, but I think that stems from the fear that NS will be abandoned or the development will slow to a crawl while Flay manages NS:C. Insulting people who like the idea of NS:C is unreasonable and it won't change anything. If you want to retain some sanity I would just skip over these peoples' posts.
Teamplayers and those who want true teamplay games are seemingly in the minority. Many of them (like me) gravitated to NS because of its' offer of an uncompromising teamplay model. Finally a developer who is willing to deviate from the mainstream popularity, a developer who is not afraid to create a game that actually requires teamplay to be successful. Someone who is willing to take a chance and put in the work to nurture an idea which has yet to take hold but is slowly and surely gaining attention. Someone willing to work with a smaller teamplay community rather then going for the instant fame, recognition, and success of more mainstream ideas. Someone who desires to innovate rather then replicate.
When NS:C was first announced I did feel threatened, but not because a flood of CSers/DMers will be attracted to NS. I felt threatened because I don't want NS:C to overshadow the fundamental idea and genius of NS. I have no doublt NS:C will be popular and chances are probably more popular then NS. Maybe it is this reality that threatens me. I don't think adding another gametype bothers people and I don't think attracting new players bother people. I think adding a gametype that seems to conflict with the original gametype and attracting players to the new gametype bother some people though. We really don't have enough information to make a good judgement on what NS:C is all about but people will still react to whatever information is available.
So I think the fear isn't attracting a specific type of player to NS, I think the fear is that NS:C will eventually kill NS. This fear may have lead some to say unpleasent things (kneejerk reaction) but if a person expresses themselves by being unpleasent rather then trying to making himself clear, welp you just got to ignore those people until they say something reasonable.
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Sep 20 2003, 12:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Sep 20 2003, 12:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think some people take so much pride in being part of what they perceive to be a more "intelligent" game community <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't you worry.
Anyone who play NS quite frequently, surf these forums and drop into the NS IRC channel once in a while will have no illusions that we are any more intelligent then other game communities. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
In fact, we are pretty much the same as everybody else... some stupid people, some smart people and every-frikkin'-body in between.
A few weeks ago, I was cooking up a suggestion about something like Natural Selection: Combat but never posted it. Long posts are a pain to read on CRTs, so all the <span style='color:orange'><b>important bits are highlighted </b></span>for easy skimming.
The gist of my aborted post was that Natural Selection requires a certain quantity of individual knowledge that I awkwardly called <b><span style='color:orange'>NSIQ</span></b>. It's less about intelligence and more about just knowing "about" the game. Every strategic challenge from Go to Spades to Kickball has this concept.
1) If your team's sum of NSIQ is higher than the other team's, you are more likely to cause Good Things to happen ("correctness"). Laying down siege, heal spray rushes, and other tactical exclaimation points are Good Things.
2) If your team's average of NSIQ is higher than the other team's, you are more likely to prevent Bad Things from happening ("safety"). Bad Things are critical failures in judgement, like leaving an outpost undefended or not watching your six.
Notice that being able to line up the dot with the skulk's head is not on that list. If you couldn't tell, the analysis is really simplified and I'm sure you can find a counter-example pretty easily. However, this post is about Natural Selection: Combat. <b><span style='color:orange'>NSIQ is crucial to long-game Natural Selection and NS:C doesn't seem to emphasize the connection between NSIQ and long-game success.</span></b>
I'm assuming the goal is to try to smooth out the learning curve a bit, because the big barrier to entry for NS is the sheer amount of things one has to *know* before the team becomes successful. Where can I siege from? Where can I bile from? How to I best use my GL? What's the best way to use a fade? Why can't I devour? Where the heck is _____ ? If I can hear that sound, what is the alien doing and from which direction in this room will it pop out?
I don't think NS:C will hurt NS, but I don't think we will achieve the goal as assumed above. NS:C appears to enhance only FPS ability, which is probably the least important component of NSIQ. You can play Minesweeper if you want to learn to move a mouse with dexterity. You can't learn the NS team ethic in any other currently popular video game.
Rewarding players for twitch ability in the manner proposed just rubs salt in the growing wound. As proposed by many others, <b><span style='color:orange'>a new short-game version of NS should work to develop good long-game NS players</span></b>. In other words, use NS:C as a teaching/training tool to encourage players to think specifically in terms of NS instead of "NS as viewed through the eyes of an FPS player".
Most importantly, play using standard NS maps or truncated recreations of NS maps. Having a good abstration in your head of every map is more important than learning to chomp or shoot. Secondly, <b><span style='color:orange'>make team objectives grossly more valuable than individual objectives</span></b>. Taking some kind of action (holding down use key, grabbing a flag, going out of your way, etc.) at an RT spot should reward the player. If you opt to go the experience point route, then destroying/building objectives should be worth far, far, far more than killing players. It doesn't matter if the real game plays differently. Many people who will be learning about NS through the short game won't be reading this post. Many people playing right now might pick up a few things.
<b><span style='color:orange'>If NS:C were to spawn an endless wave of players who were awful shots but great at securing objectives and insist on personal sacrifice to help the team, I would trade that for 95% of what I see on pubs without a second thought.</span></b> Flags, not frags. Kill ratios are for the chronically insecure. Beat this concept like the ghost of Churchill into players (both new and old) using the short game format as your vehicle.
Good luck with the work, you've got quite a dandy piece of software here. Thanks for reading.
SinSpawnHarbinger of SufferingJoin Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8359Members
edited September 2003
<b><span style='color:orange'>Nice idea trying to bring a new type of gameplay into NS, but as for me this team vs team doesn't seem to grab me enough to pull me into the 'FUN' factor.
I honestly can't think of any other good gameplay types to add to NS as currently NS is at its peak...this new game type would bring a few hours of laugh but I would get tired of it fast.</span></b>
<!--QuoteBegin--SinSpawn+Sep 20 2003, 01:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SinSpawn @ Sep 20 2003, 01:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b><span style='color:orange'>Nice idea trying to bring a new type of gameplay into NS, but as for me this team vs team doesn't see mto grab me enoug hto pull me into the 'FUN' factor.</span></b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again; please, don't judge the mode before it's released. We have no idea about the intricities of it, let alone enough information to say how 'fun' it'll be. Wait and see, leave it a couple weeks, and THEN decide. Just like with NS 2.0.
May not be, but I think it will defintally be kicking rad.
To be honest I love the game, but prefer the alien mode of "if everyone else is a retard I can still win", when playing pubs. So in many ways I think I may well perfer to play this. However thats a personal thing.
Not to mention its a great way to leverage all the IP that has been put into the project.
<!--QuoteBegin--SinSpawn+Sep 20 2003, 07:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SinSpawn @ Sep 20 2003, 07:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b><span style='color:orange'>I honestly can't think of any other good gameplay types to add to NS as currently NS is at its peak...this new game type would bring a few hours of laugh but I would get tired of it fast.</span></b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well an Sven co-op type addon could be done since everyone wants to go marine. :/
Lots of servers right now are empty and everyone just make theyre way into popular servers. Since the point of NS:C is to encourage play with fewer players (like a LAN with friends) then maybe this is what Flayra means by growth i.e. servers. In CS a typical scenario goes like this, two friends or so gather on an empty server. Some player browsing servers sees 5/20 on his favorite server. He joins. Another joins. Then another. This always happens when my friends and I try to play CS over the net between just each other. The server always eventually crowds with players.
The thing with empty servers is that NO ONE will join them. Even low player servers. I've sat in a 3v3 for 6 games straight and the server never fills.
EDIT: What is it with you people and bhop. The speed is capped its not like you can fly at 1000 mph anymore. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If this is going to delay the development of the next core NS patch, I don't think it's such a good idea.
I'd much rather see NS 2.1 with VAC and third person reload anims and all that good stuff than see a new gameplay mode. Maybe after 2.1 is finished?
The concept of Combat is good, because sometimes I want a break from the gameplay of NS, but still want to play in the game itself... get what I'm saying?
<!--QuoteBegin--MrPink+Sep 20 2003, 05:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrPink @ Sep 20 2003, 05:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OK, I don't want to read through all 30 pages of this thread, so someone who has been keeping up, can you please summarize for us? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Basically people think that this game will taint NS's pureness even though they ignore simple facts such as:
- Most people don't bother learning a game like NS, some say that NS:C won't help newbs at all - Empty servers have no real way to fill up - The majority thinks that NS:C should be tried - It's going to promote rambo'ness even though NS:C will be completely different from NS except for how weapons and abilities are used <b>OR</b> no one will like NS:C and this time should have been spent on making AvA and MvM even though it's only gonna take Flay a few days at most to make NS:C - They don't like the sound of the idea even though they don't understand it nor have they read the mapping guidelines
I like the comment of the poll. It's Flay's mod, he can do whatever he wants with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--MrPink+Sep 20 2003, 09:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrPink @ Sep 20 2003, 09:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OK, I don't want to read through all 30 pages of this thread, so someone who has been keeping up, can you please summarize for us? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I've only skimmed through the highlights and subscribed to the thread to get the gist of whats going on.
Basically some people have screams "OMG Flayra is turning NS into CS!!!! NOOooooo!!!!" . A few have also screams "Flayra is my god, don't you dare disagree with anything he says or does or I shall come round to your house and recite NS inspired poetry until you are crying for mercy.""
Others, the majority it seems have thought. "Hmm, Flayra wants to make a more accessable NS Junior for small skirmishes and quick fix type play. Let's reserve judgement until we see a bit more but sounds ok."
Personally I think so long as NS Combat and NS Classic are essentially different aspects or rulesets within the NS mod this could be an excellent way to keep small games entertaining. Simply set all your nsc_ maps to only run if there are less than 11 player and your ns_ maps to run only if there are more than 10 players. (actually numbers subject to alteration). This is easily done in the mapcycle and means that you can continue to play on a server as it gets quiet in the early morning. If the number of players is below 11 then ns maps will be skipped and if the number of players is greater than 10 the NS:Combat maps will be skipped.
Some people got the idea that when Flayra said he meant for NS:C to be a way to make it easier for people to play NS, he meant a training mode.. and then were stunned when he said there'd be no chambers or structures, because what kind of training mode is that.
What I think he meant was it'd be easier to play in that it would be playable with only 2 - 6 people or so. So you don't need to look for the server with 12 people on it to get into a decent game of NS.
Some people are concerned that NS:C will damage classic NS by making it so that people get used to the "easier" mode of upgrading yourself first, and hence will not like the classic variety where you have to wait for a com or chambers or the like. Thus any new players that come into NS will only go as far as NS:C.. leaving classic NS to be a slowly dying community of die-hards. If there's an easy way to play, the thought goes, many people are not going to expend the extra effort to learn the full game.
Others are concerned with more specific things such as game balance. How do you balance NS when such creatures as the gorge will have no ability to build structures and one of their weapons (bilebomb) is completely useless, for instance. How do you balance NS when the marines will not have welders, so there will be no ability to weld vents shut, or that they have to make a certain number of kills in order to gain ammo or health? Or how do you balance a power like Xenocide in a game with no hives? Do you have to make enough kills to re-acquire it after every use, or as soon as you get it, do you just get to keep it?
My concern is it seems to indicate a continuing focus with smaller and smaller sets of players. Personally, I *like* how NS is with a sprawling map and two teams of 12 or 15 players each trying to take control of it. However, most of the changes we see are to deal with the problems of CAL games of 6v6, (which I consider to be a small game) and NS:C to deal with even smaller groups of players.
If I wanted to play CS or DoD with a bunch of kiddies who care about scores and kills and yell out "how much HP" after you kill them, then I <i>would</i> play CS and/or DoD. NS rocks and make it better before you change it to model it after a trendy FPS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And this isnt anything like DoD or CS. You spawn in waves, you level up as you kill more, and when everyone dies on your team before the reinforcement wave comes (Meaning that everyone is dead on your team, period) you lose. Its kinda a mixture of DoD and CS, but nothing like them.
i think that this is has the potential to be absolutely amazing. NS:C will be a huge success. The only bad thing that will most likely come out of this is how it will more than likely affect the teamplay of ns_ based games.. more rambos etc. but to keep growing new things have to come and i say go4it
The community is stagnant, the game play is getting pretty boring, player counts seem to be dropping, servers are sitting idle, the hamptons is stacked, what better way to jump start the community then to offer a new gameplay mode? Well, I guess it's worth a shot, but I'm sure there are going to be a lot of those NS purists who won't touch it more than once.
I saw someone say something about playtesters saying combat 'owns.' Who cares about what the playtesters think after 2.0? Good lord, the mod is only beginning to recover only after the public betas have been run through over and over. It seems to me that the NS playtesters would probably be better suited for a game like CS, so it only makes sense that they'd agree to a team deathmatch version of Natural Selection. <b>Zing.</b>
I can't remember my original password, or the email address I used for it <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I kind of have a special pride for Natural Selection. Natural Selection is FPS RTS. NS is a FPS RTS. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And I think the NS developers and playtesters could be doing a lot to improve the existing Natural Selection, without going off on some tangent.
Me for one, I was thinking that my $20 was helping NS. I never dreamed something like NS:C would pop up. Me for two, I was kind of hoping that any "radical" changes to NS would be along the lines of marine vs. marine, or alien vs. alien, but still with the FPS RTS intact. Brand name recognition, baby. Don't bring NS down to the level of shoot-em-up-CS-in-space-with-aliens clone, even if it is only an optional game mode <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
p.s. I don't know exactly if NS:C is meant to "ease" new players into real NS, but I doubt it would. In no way does it resemble real NS. There are two kinds of people in the world: people that like longer, strategy-team-play games, and those that don't. Those that don't would be the sort of new people that would give NS:C a whirl, and they would never touch real NS. And if they did play a real NS game they would still probably have no clue what to do. How will NS:C teach aliens how to gorge? How will NS:C teach marines that if they want to stay alive, they had better stick together? How will NS:C teach newbies that real NS doesn't have a buy menu where you can just purchase an HMG. Commander? What's that? Res nodes?
First Steam, now this <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> When will it end?
Oh yeah, HL2 comes out next week <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now THAT would be a VERY useful endeavour for the NS team. Make NS truly 2.0
Mmmm. NS as an HL2 mod. Mmmmm. THAT's how you draw new players in.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 20 2003, 11:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 20 2003, 11:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The people that are PT'ing NS:C say it owns. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well aren't the playtesters good/teamworking/maybe even professional players? Maybe NS:C won't own anymore when it reaches the new players in the servers (who have heard of the new gameplay mode from their CS playing friend.. brr...). Some just make little mistakes (jumping off a cliff, wasting their ammo on a spraylogo that looks alien, trying to kill a turret as a marine), but when the jerks from CS "OwNaGe HaXXXoRinG 24H" servers, and (maybe) suck at NS:C they start blocking players, camping in the most remote location of the map (so the new wave of reinforcements arrives that the game never ends), annoying teammates, maybe even TK:ing.
Well this new gameplay mode sounds like it will suck to me. Seems like the devs are going in a CS-direction, which will probably kill interest from everyone who loves RTS over action. I have DoD for action, and that gets boring quickly. Talk about the devs getting **** when you compare Counter-Strike to their mod, now they try and make it like CS. Go figure.
<!--QuoteBegin--tunkus+Sep 21 2003, 04:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tunkus @ Sep 21 2003, 04:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now THAT would be a VERY useful endeavour for the NS team. Make NS truly 2.0
Mmmm. NS as an HL2 mod. Mmmmm. THAT's how you draw new players in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> NS in HL2? I'll be looking forward to this in what... like October of 2006?
More constellation members should come out of the woodwork and say, "Hey! What are you doing to my Mod? If I wanted CS I wouldn't have payed 20 bucks to support NS."
didnt bother to read the rest of this thread. Main thing i wanted to say, regular NS is fine, greatest game ever made imo. NS:C = greatest game turned funnest 5 mins of your time. Since NS often times frustrates new players (and old ones) being able to play a game where it is just mindless killing, while yet still very much strategic and teambased is just what the doctor has ordered. Btw ii say this from experience, NS:C is going to be VERY popular, but not so much as to make people think that it could replace NS entirely
<!--QuoteBegin--#Ha.Ze-+Sep 21 2003, 12:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (#Ha.Ze- @ Sep 21 2003, 12:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Its <i>unique.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It seems very much like WC3 Hero Arena's. They are good if you just wanna mess about after you had a hard game of regular WC3.. kinda the same as NS and NS:C <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sorry i didn't read the entire post (32 pages..) But i want to say something about this new "game style". Why this is a simple deathmatch?
What about something with Marines's random mission?
Marines have 6 waypoints (or less) per game (for all the team, no individual mission). First waypoint: they have to turn back on the power generator. Second: open a scelled door etc..etc..
Aliens have the same waypoint.
The game ending when: <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> The Marine have reached (with succes) all the waypoints (the last one is the most important, like turn on something to kill the hive, reach the escape spaceship..). <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> Or if the whole Marine team died (same respawn system like the one in "Combat"..and same upgrades system).
Each map has 2 differents waypoints for 1 mission (turn back on generator in the left room / or in the right room). The system choose randomly 1 of them.
(there is no comm/gorge)
This could be fun.. And i think it's a better approch to "NS classic" , because there is a kind of teamplay.
Comments
It is very relevent. Flay said,
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS:C is to allow NS to grow properly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't have a problem with NS:C but when it comes to NS:C helping NS to grow properly... as I have posted there are many things we could have done to help NS grow properly (which we did not do) without creating a whole new gametype.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not everyone is attracted to the idea of such a strictly team-based game, and I think the attitude towards more action-oriented games in this community is rather unhealthy as we are seeing now... There's no reason to look down on people who would rather play a more Counterstrike/WC3 mod type of game than an FPS/RTS. I think some people take so much pride in being part of what they perceive to be a more "intelligent" game community that they refuse to accept the possibility of attracting "CS players" to the game as well, even if it's in a completely separate game mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Teamplayers looking down on DMers or RTSers looking down on FPSers. Elitism is bad, whatever manifestation it takes. Some people are rather emotional about this change, but I think that stems from the fear that NS will be abandoned or the development will slow to a crawl while Flay manages NS:C. Insulting people who like the idea of NS:C is unreasonable and it won't change anything. If you want to retain some sanity I would just skip over these peoples' posts.
Teamplayers and those who want true teamplay games are seemingly in the minority. Many of them (like me) gravitated to NS because of its' offer of an uncompromising teamplay model. Finally a developer who is willing to deviate from the mainstream popularity, a developer who is not afraid to create a game that actually requires teamplay to be successful. Someone who is willing to take a chance and put in the work to nurture an idea which has yet to take hold but is slowly and surely gaining attention. Someone willing to work with a smaller teamplay community rather then going for the instant fame, recognition, and success of more mainstream ideas. Someone who desires to innovate rather then replicate.
When NS:C was first announced I did feel threatened, but not because a flood of CSers/DMers will be attracted to NS. I felt threatened because I don't want NS:C to overshadow the fundamental idea and genius of NS. I have no doublt NS:C will be popular and chances are probably more popular then NS. Maybe it is this reality that threatens me. I don't think adding another gametype bothers people and I don't think attracting new players bother people. I think adding a gametype that seems to conflict with the original gametype and attracting players to the new gametype bother some people though. We really don't have enough information to make a good judgement on what NS:C is all about but people will still react to whatever information is available.
So I think the fear isn't attracting a specific type of player to NS, I think the fear is that NS:C will eventually kill NS. This fear may have lead some to say unpleasent things (kneejerk reaction) but if a person expresses themselves by being unpleasent rather then trying to making himself clear, welp you just got to ignore those people until they say something reasonable.
Don't you worry.
Anyone who play NS quite frequently, surf these forums and drop into the NS IRC channel once in a while will have no illusions that we are any more intelligent then other game communities. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
In fact, we are pretty much the same as everybody else... some stupid people, some smart people and every-frikkin'-body in between.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The gist of my aborted post was that Natural Selection requires a certain quantity of individual knowledge that I awkwardly called <b><span style='color:orange'>NSIQ</span></b>. It's less about intelligence and more about just knowing "about" the game. Every strategic challenge from Go to Spades to Kickball has this concept.
1) If your team's sum of NSIQ is higher than the other team's, you are more likely to cause Good Things to happen ("correctness"). Laying down siege, heal spray rushes, and other tactical exclaimation points are Good Things.
2) If your team's average of NSIQ is higher than the other team's, you are more likely to prevent Bad Things from happening ("safety"). Bad Things are critical failures in judgement, like leaving an outpost undefended or not watching your six.
Notice that being able to line up the dot with the skulk's head is not on that list. If you couldn't tell, the analysis is really simplified and I'm sure you can find a counter-example pretty easily. However, this post is about Natural Selection: Combat. <b><span style='color:orange'>NSIQ is crucial to long-game Natural Selection and NS:C doesn't seem to emphasize the connection between NSIQ and long-game success.</span></b>
I'm assuming the goal is to try to smooth out the learning curve a bit, because the big barrier to entry for NS is the sheer amount of things one has to *know* before the team becomes successful. Where can I siege from? Where can I bile from? How to I best use my GL? What's the best way to use a fade? Why can't I devour? Where the heck is _____ ? If I can hear that sound, what is the alien doing and from which direction in this room will it pop out?
I don't think NS:C will hurt NS, but I don't think we will achieve the goal as assumed above. NS:C appears to enhance only FPS ability, which is probably the least important component of NSIQ. You can play Minesweeper if you want to learn to move a mouse with dexterity. You can't learn the NS team ethic in any other currently popular video game.
Rewarding players for twitch ability in the manner proposed just rubs salt in the growing wound. As proposed by many others, <b><span style='color:orange'>a new short-game version of NS should work to develop good long-game NS players</span></b>. In other words, use NS:C as a teaching/training tool to encourage players to think specifically in terms of NS instead of "NS as viewed through the eyes of an FPS player".
Most importantly, play using standard NS maps or truncated recreations of NS maps. Having a good abstration in your head of every map is more important than learning to chomp or shoot. Secondly, <b><span style='color:orange'>make team objectives grossly more valuable than individual objectives</span></b>. Taking some kind of action (holding down use key, grabbing a flag, going out of your way, etc.) at an RT spot should reward the player. If you opt to go the experience point route, then destroying/building objectives should be worth far, far, far more than killing players. It doesn't matter if the real game plays differently. Many people who will be learning about NS through the short game won't be reading this post. Many people playing right now might pick up a few things.
<b><span style='color:orange'>If NS:C were to spawn an endless wave of players who were awful shots but great at securing objectives and insist on personal sacrifice to help the team, I would trade that for 95% of what I see on pubs without a second thought.</span></b> Flags, not frags. Kill ratios are for the chronically insecure. Beat this concept like the ghost of Churchill into players (both new and old) using the short game format as your vehicle.
Good luck with the work, you've got quite a dandy piece of software here. Thanks for reading.
teamplay should be emphazized, if not the focal point.
I honestly can't think of any other good gameplay types to add to NS as currently NS is at its peak...this new game type would bring a few hours of laugh but I would get tired of it fast.</span></b>
Once again; please, don't judge the mode before it's released. We have no idea about the intricities of it, let alone enough information to say how 'fun' it'll be. Wait and see, leave it a couple weeks, and THEN decide. Just like with NS 2.0.
May not be, but I think it will defintally be kicking rad.
To be honest I love the game, but prefer the alien mode of "if everyone else is a retard I can still win", when playing pubs. So in many ways I think I may well perfer to play this. However thats a personal thing.
Not to mention its a great way to leverage all the IP that has been put into the project.
Well an Sven co-op type addon could be done since everyone wants to go marine. :/
The thing with empty servers is that NO ONE will join them. Even low player servers. I've sat in a 3v3 for 6 games straight and the server never fills.
EDIT: What is it with you people and bhop. The speed is capped its not like you can fly at 1000 mph anymore. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'd much rather see NS 2.1 with VAC and third person reload anims and all that good stuff than see a new gameplay mode. Maybe after 2.1 is finished?
The concept of Combat is good, because sometimes I want a break from the gameplay of NS, but still want to play in the game itself... get what I'm saying?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Meh.
Pink you lazy illegitimate child. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Basically people think that this game will taint NS's pureness even though they ignore simple facts such as:
- Most people don't bother learning a game like NS, some say that NS:C won't help newbs at all
- Empty servers have no real way to fill up
- The majority thinks that NS:C should be tried
- It's going to promote rambo'ness even though NS:C will be completely different from NS except for how weapons and abilities are used <b>OR</b> no one will like NS:C and this time should have been spent on making AvA and MvM even though it's only gonna take Flay a few days at most to make NS:C
- They don't like the sound of the idea even though they don't understand it nor have they read the mapping guidelines
I like the comment of the poll. It's Flay's mod, he can do whatever he wants with it.
I've only skimmed through the highlights and subscribed to the thread to get the gist of whats going on.
Basically some people have screams "OMG Flayra is turning NS into CS!!!! NOOooooo!!!!" . A few have also screams "Flayra is my god, don't you dare disagree with anything he says or does or I shall come round to your house and recite NS inspired poetry until you are crying for mercy.""
Others, the majority it seems have thought. "Hmm, Flayra wants to make a more accessable NS Junior for small skirmishes and quick fix type play. Let's reserve judgement until we see a bit more but sounds ok."
Personally I think so long as NS Combat and NS Classic are essentially different aspects or rulesets within the NS mod this could be an excellent way to keep small games entertaining. Simply set all your nsc_ maps to only run if there are less than 11 player and your ns_ maps to run only if there are more than 10 players. (actually numbers subject to alteration). This is easily done in the mapcycle and means that you can continue to play on a server as it gets quiet in the early morning. If the number of players is below 11 then ns maps will be skipped and if the number of players is greater than 10 the NS:Combat maps will be skipped.
What I think he meant was it'd be easier to play in that it would be playable with only 2 - 6 people or so. So you don't need to look for the server with 12 people on it to get into a decent game of NS.
Some people are concerned that NS:C will damage classic NS by making it so that people get used to the "easier" mode of upgrading yourself first, and hence will not like the classic variety where you have to wait for a com or chambers or the like. Thus any new players that come into NS will only go as far as NS:C.. leaving classic NS to be a slowly dying community of die-hards. If there's an easy way to play, the thought goes, many people are not going to expend the extra effort to learn the full game.
Others are concerned with more specific things such as game balance. How do you balance NS when such creatures as the gorge will have no ability to build structures and one of their weapons (bilebomb) is completely useless, for instance. How do you balance NS when the marines will not have welders, so there will be no ability to weld vents shut, or that they have to make a certain number of kills in order to gain ammo or health? Or how do you balance a power like Xenocide in a game with no hives? Do you have to make enough kills to re-acquire it after every use, or as soon as you get it, do you just get to keep it?
My concern is it seems to indicate a continuing focus with smaller and smaller sets of players. Personally, I *like* how NS is with a sprawling map and two teams of 12 or 15 players each trying to take control of it. However, most of the changes we see are to deal with the problems of CAL games of 6v6, (which I consider to be a small game) and NS:C to deal with even smaller groups of players.
If I wanted to play CS or DoD with a bunch of kiddies who care about scores and kills and yell out "how much HP" after you kill them, then I <i>would</i> play CS and/or DoD. NS rocks and make it better before you change it to model it after a trendy FPS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this isnt anything like DoD or CS. You spawn in waves, you level up as you kill more, and when everyone dies on your team before the reinforcement wave comes (Meaning that everyone is dead on your team, period) you lose. Its kinda a mixture of DoD and CS, but nothing like them.
Its <i>unique.</i>
I saw someone say something about playtesters saying combat 'owns.' Who cares about what the playtesters think after 2.0? Good lord, the mod is only beginning to recover only after the public betas have been run through over and over. It seems to me that the NS playtesters would probably be better suited for a game like CS, so it only makes sense that they'd agree to a team deathmatch version of Natural Selection. <b>Zing.</b>
I kind of have a special pride for Natural Selection. Natural Selection is FPS RTS. NS is a FPS RTS. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And I think the NS developers and playtesters could be doing a lot to improve the existing Natural Selection, without going off on some tangent.
Me for one, I was thinking that my $20 was helping NS. I never dreamed something like NS:C would pop up. Me for two, I was kind of hoping that any "radical" changes to NS would be along the lines of marine vs. marine, or alien vs. alien, but still with the FPS RTS intact. Brand name recognition, baby. Don't bring NS down to the level of shoot-em-up-CS-in-space-with-aliens clone, even if it is only an optional game mode <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
p.s.
I don't know exactly if NS:C is meant to "ease" new players into real NS, but I doubt it would. In no way does it resemble real NS. There are two kinds of people in the world: people that like longer, strategy-team-play games, and those that don't. Those that don't would be the sort of new people that would give NS:C a whirl, and they would never touch real NS. And if they did play a real NS game they would still probably have no clue what to do. How will NS:C teach aliens how to gorge? How will NS:C teach marines that if they want to stay alive, they had better stick together? How will NS:C teach newbies that real NS doesn't have a buy menu where you can just purchase an HMG. Commander? What's that? Res nodes?
First Steam, now this <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> When will it end?
Oh yeah, HL2 comes out next week <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now THAT would be a VERY useful endeavour for the NS team. Make NS truly 2.0
Mmmm. NS as an HL2 mod. Mmmmm. THAT's how you draw new players in.
Well aren't the playtesters good/teamworking/maybe even professional players? Maybe NS:C won't own anymore when it reaches the new players in the servers (who have heard of the new gameplay mode from their CS playing friend.. brr...). Some just make little mistakes (jumping off a cliff, wasting their ammo on a spraylogo that looks alien, trying to kill a turret as a marine), but when the jerks from CS "OwNaGe HaXXXoRinG 24H" servers, and (maybe) suck at NS:C they start blocking players, camping in the most remote location of the map (so the new wave of reinforcements arrives that the game never ends), annoying teammates, maybe even TK:ing.
This is only my opinion. No offense.
Mmmm. NS as an HL2 mod. Mmmmm. THAT's how you draw new players in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS in HL2? I'll be looking forward to this in what... like October of 2006?
More constellation members should come out of the woodwork and say, "Hey! What are you doing to my Mod? If I wanted CS I wouldn't have payed 20 bucks to support NS."
It seems very much like WC3 Hero Arena's. They are good if you just wanna mess about after you had a hard game of regular WC3.. kinda the same as NS and NS:C <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Why this is a simple deathmatch?
What about something with Marines's random mission?
Marines have 6 waypoints (or less) per game (for all the team, no individual mission).
First waypoint: they have to turn back on the power generator.
Second: open a scelled door
etc..etc..
Aliens have the same waypoint.
The game ending when:
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> The Marine have reached (with succes) all the waypoints (the last one is the most important, like turn on something to kill the hive, reach the escape spaceship..).
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> Or if the whole Marine team died (same respawn system like the one in "Combat"..and same upgrades system).
Each map has 2 differents waypoints for 1 mission (turn back on generator in the left room / or in the right room). The system choose randomly 1 of them.
(there is no comm/gorge)
This could be fun.. And i think it's a better approch to "NS classic" , because there is a kind of teamplay.
ps:sorry for my english..