Model Vs Hitbox
Soberana
Join Date: 2003-06-25 Member: 17695Members
Join Date: 2003-06-25 Member: 17695Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Heed my call</div> Now now.... I think I will type down something fairly long to explain my point.
Most of us come from cs, or other mods where at what we got shot and hit, it died, then came NS.
The concept is great. Its a great game, yet it is flawed in something no one can deny.
Hitbox / Hull compared to the model size.
First off, how many times have you seen the supposed counter jp / shotguns, jp / hmg or whatever die to an onos, or a single hmg / lmg marine, or one with a shotgun try to take him on 1 on 1, or even gang up on him? Now the thing is, if we can aim at him, we are sure that if we AIM some part of his body, he should die.
But he doesnt.
Since it is a gordon freeman hitbox, that is relatively pretty small compared to the onos model size... WHY IS IT THAT WAY?
Why isnt the model the size of the hitbox? So we can actually land the shots where we aim for, instead of skitting by utterly pointless.
Some parts of the skulk you cant hit either. I think that the very tip or so. The lerk flying hitbox is kinda bad too. Shooting the wings doesnt do much :/ .
Why doesnt Flayra make the models the size of the hitboxes so we can actually not blame our deaths to not hitting something that was never there.
Is it fair for people that had the skill, the tactics and smarts to win, to die because of a bugged game?
Most of us come from cs, or other mods where at what we got shot and hit, it died, then came NS.
The concept is great. Its a great game, yet it is flawed in something no one can deny.
Hitbox / Hull compared to the model size.
First off, how many times have you seen the supposed counter jp / shotguns, jp / hmg or whatever die to an onos, or a single hmg / lmg marine, or one with a shotgun try to take him on 1 on 1, or even gang up on him? Now the thing is, if we can aim at him, we are sure that if we AIM some part of his body, he should die.
But he doesnt.
Since it is a gordon freeman hitbox, that is relatively pretty small compared to the onos model size... WHY IS IT THAT WAY?
Why isnt the model the size of the hitbox? So we can actually land the shots where we aim for, instead of skitting by utterly pointless.
Some parts of the skulk you cant hit either. I think that the very tip or so. The lerk flying hitbox is kinda bad too. Shooting the wings doesnt do much :/ .
Why doesnt Flayra make the models the size of the hitboxes so we can actually not blame our deaths to not hitting something that was never there.
Is it fair for people that had the skill, the tactics and smarts to win, to die because of a bugged game?
Comments
Fade-Nos! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Some guy made that model, maybe it would actually be worth a download. Since the model is about the size of a Fade I think and that is how big the hitbox where the Onos take damage is.
Onos front: About 1/3 of the onos is "real", aim for the center and not too high.
Onos side: This is the big problem. You have to aim at the gordon model that is from the middle of his front legs and to the middle of the onos. Anything infront or behind is a miss.
Fade: Has no head.
Skulk front: Seems like you have to aim a bit above the skulk, could be wrong.
Skulk side: Has no head or front legs, aim for the butt and hind legs.
Lerk: In roofs... gah.
But... here's a thing. I think that if the onos hitbox was actually correct, onos would be *useless*. One cow dies to 55 lvl3 LMG shots. The *only* reason it is hard to kill is because of the hitbox. If it was fixed, 2 LMG Marines would have an easy time killing a rambo onos... which isn't quite fair considering it costs as much as 3 HA/HMG's. It would pretty much make the cow useless.
I think a better compromise would be to make the hitbox bigger, but not *quite* as big as the skin. Leave the "edges" without hitboxes so that you have to aim for the more "vulnerable" areas. Like a skinny onos within the big one.
Anyway, what is REALLY needed is a better animation for when a devour is complete.. think about it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
couldn't they just up the armour on the onos to compensate for the now properly sized hitbox?
I know half-life has an annoying 3 hull set you can modify and stuff but it's difficult to change beyond the 3. I never thought the hulls had anything to do with the hitboxes though so I'm kinda confused as to how hitboxes are implemented. I always assumed they were part of the model =/
But... here's a thing. I think that if the onos hitbox was actually correct, onos would be *useless*. One cow dies to 55 lvl3 LMG shots. The *only* reason it is hard to kill is because of the hitbox. If it was fixed, 2 LMG Marines would have an easy time killing a rambo onos... which isn't quite fair considering it costs as much as 3 HA/HMG's. It would pretty much make the cow useless.
I think a better compromise would be to make the hitbox bigger, but not *quite* as big as the skin. Leave the "edges" without hitboxes so that you have to aim for the more "vulnerable" areas. Like a skinny onos within the big one.
Anyway, what is REALLY needed is a better animation for when a devour is complete.. think about it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the HP and armor of the onos could be upgraded somewhat if the hit box was changed.
then again, that's probably what they planned to do in the first place before the oni started getting wedged in everything =P
This problem is caused by the fact that the player hulls are not only used for collision detection, but for hit detection as well. The way this works is this: when a bullet is fired, the engine checks if the bullet has hit a player's hull. If it has, the engine then checks if the bullet has hit any if that player's hitboxes. Then, if it has hit a hitbox, it is counted as a hit.
Of course, if player hulls could be enlarged to fit the hitboxes, that wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately, there is a problem with doing this. Player hulls must be cylindrical, and the Onos model is elongated. If the Onos' hull were enlarged to fit its hitboxes, the hull would become very wide. The Onos wouldn't fit into places it should fit into, and it would be very easily blocked. That, I believe, is even less desirable than the current situation.
Another reason why the Onos' hull can't be enlarged is the hull limit, which I believe is four. One hull is zero size, and is used to check for leaks in a map. One is Skulk/crouching human size. One is standing human/crouching Onos size. One is standing Onos size. Notice that the crouching Onos does not use a unique hull; it just uses the standing human hull. This means that, if the standing Onos' hull were enlarged, the crouching Onos' hull could not be enlarged as well, so the two hull's sizes would be inconsistent.
These limits only apply to players, because players are the only things that use the hulls.
By the way, <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=a36d966743f8e3173df1374b88fc4a07&search_in=posts&result_type=topics&highlite=hitbox+and+onos+and+detection+and+hull' target='_blank'>here</a> are some old threads on the topic.
I instinctively shoot the rear of Skulks, and even tonight managed to down the two lerks that ever attacked me. Onos are trickier but they're tougher. In fact the only thing I have problems killing are Fades.
<a href='http://www.clandlc.com/Articles/NaturalSelectionDissection' target='_blank'>http://www.clandlc.com/Articles/NaturalSel...ctionDissection</a>
<a href='http://www.muppetking.com/index.php?mn=menu.php?ci=7&bd=halflife.shtml' target='_blank'>http://www.muppetking.com/index.php?mn=men...=halflife.shtml</a>
What I like to use as the hitbox links.
Muppet version seems the most accurate, aim for those and you should be ok.
Like have it all spiky or different colored on aliens where they cant get shot.. would really help clear the confusion
But lets say it can.Lets say onos hitbox is given proper size.
THEREOTICALLY onos would be underpowered.In reality,who knows?
If it does turn out to be underpowered...SIMPLE.Increasing the damage onos can take.
Like have it all spiky or different colored on aliens where they cant get shot.. would really help clear the confusion <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the quickest, dirtiest, and best solution to this problem I have seen yet. Really good idea.
1) Get in touch with Valve, and figure out a way to break through the hull limit. Best solution, also hardest.
2) Create new models so that the hulls properly cover all the hitboxes. Second best solution that would truly fix the problem, kinda time consuming (have to redo models/skins/animations), and would be a bit of a PR nightmare because the devs would be changing what the aliens look like.
3) As mentioned earlier, just do new skins somehow showing where the 'armor' (aka areas that dont take damage) is. Worst solution because it doesn't actually fix the problem (it just masks it/explains it in the game world), but is the easiest to do. Slight PR problem because the aliens would change their appearance.
Why arent new skins for the existing models released officially by the NS team "armoring up" the parts where there are no hitboxes
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src='http://www.oclube.com/usuarios/teoh/onos1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<img src='http://www.oclube.com/usuarios/teoh/onos2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
Engage brain please.
for you all you who dont seem to be able to hit an onos.. there is little hope for you, its the easiest thing to kill in the game
Leave the model and hitbox as it is and replace the skin with a weird gelatinous looking thing, then put a little sort of nucleus model floating about inside it where the hitbox is XD
Leave the model and hitbox as it is and replace the skin with a weird gelatinous looking thing, then put a little sort of nucleus model floating about inside it where the hitbox is XD <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oddly enough, that's actually a very good idea. Chances of it being done officially by the devs is practically zero though.
If the hit boxes are that much of an issue for you, use this. Its a replacement made by Maus to represent the onos hit boxes. I use it, it helps alot.
[EDIT] Opps forgot link <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=19&t=46446&hl=' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=19&t=46446&hl=</a>
You seriously need an answer to that?
You seriously need an answer to that? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. And I mean, kind of carapaced with sometype of exoskeleton in the parts where they cant be hit. Same with all aliens.
technically you can shoot the onos anywhere and register a hit as long as the angle is right... if you shoot the onos in the head directly from the side you won't hit anything but if you're off near it's front and to the side a bit and shot the same location the angle would let you also smack the hitbox so basically there <b>ISN'T</b> anywhere you can't technically shoot and not register a hit 100% of the time
Seriously, if you can aim at the middle of the damned thing, you can hit it.
If its coming straight at you, shoot directly into the center of its head; If its running away, shoot directly into the center of its arse. If its running past you, or for some reason running sideways, shoot it in the center between its legs. Its not that hard. Its even easier with a shotgun because it spreads out, so you're sure to hit something; Likewise, the HMG tends to spray in a wider cone, so you're sure to hit something there too.
Just because you can't kill an Onos by shooting at its toenails doesn't mean its a problem.