i see what you mean fw, but the clan scene needs something right now, anything because to be honest NS has been boring me lately due to that very thing, there is no new blood in the clan scene, and playing the same clans over and over isnt fun. We need to boost this scene some way or another and this seems like a viable solution. Even if things get "rigged" o well it will attract new people to play competitively. Getting into the clan scene is easier than most people think, and that false notion of not being good enough to be in a clan or you dont know enough people really could be blown away by something like this.
Im all for this if you need any support pm SilverWolf in #xen-ns
<!--QuoteBegin--Firewater+Oct 6 2003, 11:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Oct 6 2003, 11:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is a bad idea. I've competed in the first counter strike draft league made by CAL. It was a failure. People wanted to play on teams with their friends, not a bunch of strangers. Talent attracts talent, hence why sYn was so dominate in 1.04, and why HAM is top notch now, you would expect people to give that up? If you want the most skilled clanners to compete in this league, do not be surprised if they put their normal team first over you guys. That was the problem with the CS league. I was on the team with [3D]-Bullseye, zEx|Shaguar and DoP-Original, who all were in competition for the CAL championship. They had no time to compete with the draft team, which made them kind of pointless to have around.
Also what is to stop people from rigging the scoring. i.e. Player A is really should have a score of 5, but deliberately earns a score of 2 so that he can be on a team with another 5 player. So the team would be getting two "5" players, when they should be getting a 2 and a 5.
Mixing the talent to balance it out kind of ruins the game for the people who dedicate enough time to be skilled at it. Maybe more clans should just form up, instead of a draft league.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You might have missed roughly the entire point of what he was saying, and what this will be all about. Every night, its the same bunch of clans scrimming the same bunch of clans. Same strategies. Same people. Different night. This is leading to boredom of clans, and boredom of NS in general.
The NS Draft is not about being the "Team 3D"(As said a billion times before, NS is definately not the same as Counter-Strike) of Natural Selection, its about getting to play with some new people, and having fun with people who know how to play the game.
Having stated such, there would be no reason to "break up" any clans or take time away from them. If you notice, both of the organizers of this league are in respectable clans, and have stated they have no intention of breaking up their current clans over a "fun activity," so why would anyone else?
As for the scoring system, if you missed Diskord's post, it was scrapped. No worries friend.
This Draft type league play will do exactly what its supposed to, eliminate the boredom of the everyday NS clan scene. I think its a great idea, and therefore demand ops in #NSDraft. =o
As for improvements on the idea..there isn't too much that can be done to establish "fairness" when team leaders select teams. Currently it would be left to the team leaders' good conscience not to select a rediculous team.
A simple rule that could be set: <b>No three members from the same clan[CAL Roster] could be on an NSDraft team. Simple as that.</b> Problem eliminated.
In any case, in a draft environment no team should get to pick all their players at once. Each one could take turns, and then it would be assured that the best players are divied evenly. There will also be "wild cards," people joining clan play for the first time, but having played the game extensively. Diamonds in the rough =)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe more clans should just form up<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If clans were just going to "form up"... they would have by now. I see this as some sort of initiative whether its feasible or not.
what happens if someone is unhappy with his current draft team, would that member be allowed to leave and join another team? Or does that person just get screwed over. There are a lot flaws, and just because counter-strike is not like natural-selction, it does not mean that my example is not usable. CAL D was an ONLINE draft league, which what you are trying to setup. The mere fact that its a different game doesnt mean the people are different. There are going to be hot heads, people that arent active, and in this specific case of the draft, a lot people that aren't very skilled. There will be a lot impaitence with the skill gap, which happened in the other draft league.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
I see fw's point and tbh if we have 6 ham on i'd rather play with them than my draft team, but i'm all for helping out the clan community so ill play in it if you want. The only condition I'd like to see is that there should be a minimum of 3-4 non-clan players in each draft team. If 4 or 5 of us on each team are already in competitive clans then it kinda seems like a waste of time.
Two possibilities: 1) The people that are doing stuff like the pandas seminars get into this and take that extra step beyond pugs, and maybe their draft team turns into a regular clan, or maybe they make a clan with a bunch of people they meet in the draft league. In any event, people have a lot of fun. 2) It fails.
OH JESUS IT MIGHT FAIL BETTER NOT EVEN TRY (sobbing, slitting wrists)
Anyways, adding #nsdraft to my autojoin list, if this gets a few more clans into the scene I will sport all kinds of wood.
This is great guys. This is still new and we need these kinds of ideas being thrown around. And about the clans not being dedicating to their draft team and only to their real clan: the majority of real clans don't scrim more than 4 times a day, so there should still be some time in there. I'm sure we'll have some rules about how many clanners on a team, how many people of the same clan, ect. Just need to figure out whats right. Help us not make it fail! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The solution to captains stacking their teams with players from their clan is to make it so there cannot be more than say 3 members of the same clan on one team or something like that.
<!--QuoteBegin--CHAMOIS+Oct 6 2003, 11:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CHAMOIS @ Oct 6 2003, 11:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so instead of playing with my clan and friends I get to play with crappy players who I dont even know?
<i>sign me up !!</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I know a lot of people think pugs are fun when they don't have their members on.
<!--QuoteBegin--CHAMOIS+Oct 6 2003, 12:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CHAMOIS @ Oct 6 2003, 12:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so instead of playing with my clan and friends I get to play with crappy players who I dont even know?
<i>sign me up !!</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I enjoy having a boring good time.
<!--QuoteBegin--Silicon+Oct 6 2003, 09:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silicon @ Oct 6 2003, 09:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and in this ns draft league, could joe schmoe join? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As long as you don't mind playing on US servers, anyone can join.
Several people have mentioned concerns about getting stuck with crappy teams. This would be a valid concern if money was involved. I think the goal of this leage should be more focused on fun and gaining experience, not just winning. Lets face it, this is a game and there really no consequences for winning or losing.
This idea is great because it gets new players into a pseudo clan environment, and lets current clan members get a change of pace. This new league would certainly not replace existing clans. If you think its a bad idea, fine. It will not affect you life in any way if you ignore it, but it is a great idea that should still be tried.
<!--QuoteBegin--TuBeL+Oct 6 2003, 03:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TuBeL @ Oct 6 2003, 03:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This idea is great because it gets new players into a pseudo clan environment <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The above is the most important aspect of the draft idea. I'm all for any idea that might help increase interest in clan competition...
<!--QuoteBegin--CHAMOIS+Oct 6 2003, 11:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CHAMOIS @ Oct 6 2003, 11:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->so instead of playing with my clan and friends I get to play with crappy players who I dont even know?
<i>sign me up !!</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> When you say with, I assume you mean on the same team. But isn't it also fun to play against (read: pwnz0r) your friends and clanm8s once in a while? <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> Just a thought on a different way of looking at this. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> If the idea of being forced to play against your amigos is too much, then so be it...
<!--QuoteBegin--Firewater+Oct 6 2003, 11:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Oct 6 2003, 11:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is a bad idea. I've competed in the first counter strike draft league made by CAL. It was a failure. People wanted to play on teams with their friends, not a bunch of strangers. Talent attracts talent, hence why sYn was so dominate in 1.04, and why HAM is top notch now, you would expect people to give that up? If you want the most skilled clanners to compete in this league, do not be surprised if they put their normal team first over you guys. That was the problem with the CS league. I was on the team with [3D]-Bullseye, zEx|Shaguar and DoP-Original, who all were in competition for the CAL championship. They had no time to compete with the draft team, which made them kind of pointless to have around.
Also what is to stop people from rigging the scoring. i.e. Player A is really should have a score of 5, but deliberately earns a score of 2 so that he can be on a team with another 5 player. So the team would be getting two "5" players, when they should be getting a 2 and a 5.
Mixing the talent to balance it out kind of ruins the game for the people who dedicate enough time to be skilled at it. Maybe more clans should just form up, instead of a draft league. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Figure it this way. It doesn't matter how good you are, or how uber your clan is. If you aren't feeding the basis of players, then the competetive side of NS is jus going to die.
It's the same in Europe too. There are top clans, then there are bottom clans. I mean, who the hell wants to play HAM every single round when they know they're going to lose? I'm sure some will still work, I mean I will, to get better. But you either make a sacrifice in playing with players whom you deem lowlier ( go go elitist attitude ) or you watch the competetive spirit of NS die.
The reason CS survives as much as it does is it's huge fanbase. But NS doesn't have that advantage. I know top clans see this as trying to screw them over, but I think more good will come out of it than bad. Besides, we're still thinking up checks and balances for the whole clan deal. We want everyone to have a good shot at winning.
I'd like to suggest that instead of a team captain model, you guys go with a panel of 3-5 and that panel just creates all the teams. I think that would get around a lot of the complaints.
Also, the 1.04 clan scene vets that are going "oh hrrrumph well doesn't sound fun to me" - you're missing the point. It's not <i>for</i> you. You wanna help? Great. If you're not interested, that's great too. This is to get new people into the clan scene, and to get them playing other new people. A good way to kill a new clan is to have them show up and get crushed 14-0 in 2-3 nights of scrimmaging. And then to find that they got crushed playing clans that get similarly owned by the top3. The road to competence, at that point, looks like a long hard road in a small, foundering community. This league should get back that same feel we all had with our first scrims against fellow nubs in 1.03 and 1.04.
Only suggestion I would make is try to figgure out someway so that people can get in the same group together.
No I don't mean like 6 members of a clan, but 2 people should be able to request to go together and as long as they arn't both superstars/supersh** there should be no reason not to place them togther.
Oh course the team leader would have to pay the cost of the 2 possible + or - a little to offset the fact that they went together.
I think people will wanna have at least 1 friend on thier team.
BTW I am tottally up for this, sounds great.
I love the game/am a pretty competitive player however I don't go tromping through forums so I will never get a clan invite.
-Stick100/MTaco
And just for sh*ts and giggles you could also run a NS:C tourny at the same time with the same teams. (So there wouldn't be so much waiting around).
The reason the CS draft division died was because it was, what, a year ago? The gap between skilled players and somewhat good players was huge. While you may think the same with NS, it just <b>isn't</b> the same. NS is a year old, and there are some very, very good players. But give it another year and any joe schmoe with a proper challenge, some dedication, and organization will be able to compete with any player.
And again, we aren't asking you give up your clans. We're asking you save them.
As far as a counsel to pick teams, I've considered this. It would do alot toward keeping teams fun and even, but the counsel would have to be pretty unbiased and I'm not exactly sure how that would happen.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited October 2003
I think you could easily create an unbiased counsel to create teams. If someone is actually trying to stack their draft team with better players then they obviously dont care about the community and they shouldn't be involved at all. I guess it depends on how many people sign up but I think that the goal would be to have a maximum of 2 clan players in each team. I might even prefer it if I was the only clan player on my team.
Here's a thought of a way to do it if we can get enough people who have never played with a clan before.
We'd have two groups:
Group 1 - Draft all the commanders of the current clans. Some clans have more than one person who can play commander well. In our case at least myself and steamed could be drafted and green isnt too shabby either when he wants to comm. So then once you've seperated all the commanders into different teams, you only let non-clan members on their teams and the commanders try to show them the ropes and explain the strategy to them and play with them. Group 2 - Undoubtedly there will be commanders-in-training who want to play in a competitive environment. In this case you start the team with 1 pub commander and 2 clan players. Then the rest of the roster is filled with players who are not currently in clans. In this case the 2 clan players may offset the somewhat inexperienced commander and they would take the role of educating the commander and the rest of the team about strategy and how things are done.
There may be more teams in group 1 then there are in group 2 or it might be the other way around. Either way once you've finished making the teams you combine the 2 groups and set up some kind of a tournament.
But in general I think for this thing to really have any impact and really work well that the ratio of Clan members to Pub players should be like 1:6. If you can pull that off then that means a) since there will be so few clan players you can selectively pick people who actually want to help the community and b) you have enough interest that alot of the draft players will probably go on to join clans or form their own.
GREAT idea HAMBONE. Maybe you would like to join us and help us out. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
having the devs rank people is by far one of the dumbest things i have ever heard. im not saying that they dont know skill when they see it, but a) im sure they dont have the time to go through a huge list of players b) they dont know all the good players, for example.. im sure they have no **** idea who Roscoe is. c) point cap thing is dumb. if the team leader is too lazy to do some research on his picks then he deserves to end up with **** players.
but i would still probably sign up if you got rid of that dumb stuff.
We're still brainstorming on how we want to do this. Getting judges is pretty much out of the question because a) time b) who wants to sit there and judge like 1000 people!?
Hey as much as I bashed the idea, its a noble cause, even though i dont think it will work, I will try to help out if I can. I agree that there needs to be more *quality* teams, but I guess assigned teams will have to work for now.
Comments
Im all for this if you need any support pm SilverWolf in #xen-ns
Also what is to stop people from rigging the scoring. i.e. Player A is really should have a score of 5, but deliberately earns a score of 2 so that he can be on a team with another 5 player. So the team would be getting two "5" players, when they should be getting a 2 and a 5.
Mixing the talent to balance it out kind of ruins the game for the people who dedicate enough time to be skilled at it. Maybe more clans should just form up, instead of a draft league.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You might have missed roughly the entire point of what he was saying, and what this will be all about. Every night, its the same bunch of clans scrimming the same bunch of clans. Same strategies. Same people. Different night. This is leading to boredom of clans, and boredom of NS in general.
The NS Draft is not about being the "Team 3D"(As said a billion times before, NS is definately not the same as Counter-Strike) of Natural Selection, its about getting to play with some new people, and having fun with people who know how to play the game.
Having stated such, there would be no reason to "break up" any clans or take time away from them. If you notice, both of the organizers of this league are in respectable clans, and have stated they have no intention of breaking up their current clans over a "fun activity," so why would anyone else?
As for the scoring system, if you missed Diskord's post, it was scrapped. No worries friend.
This Draft type league play will do exactly what its supposed to, eliminate the boredom of the everyday NS clan scene. I think its a great idea, and therefore demand ops in #NSDraft. =o
As for improvements on the idea..there isn't too much that can be done to establish "fairness" when team leaders select teams. Currently it would be left to the team leaders' good conscience not to select a rediculous team.
A simple rule that could be set: <b>No three members from the same clan[CAL Roster] could be on an NSDraft team. Simple as that.</b> Problem eliminated.
In any case, in a draft environment no team should get to pick all their players at once. Each one could take turns, and then it would be assured that the best players are divied evenly. There will also be "wild cards," people joining clan play for the first time, but having played the game extensively. Diamonds in the rough =)
gj Diskord and Skillz <3
If clans were just going to "form up"... they would have by now. I see this as some sort of initiative whether its feasible or not.
Two possibilities:
1) The people that are doing stuff like the pandas seminars get into this and take that extra step beyond pugs, and maybe their draft team turns into a regular clan, or maybe they make a clan with a bunch of people they meet in the draft league. In any event, people have a lot of fun.
2) It fails.
OH JESUS IT MIGHT FAIL BETTER NOT EVEN TRY (sobbing, slitting wrists)
Anyways, adding #nsdraft to my autojoin list, if this gets a few more clans into the scene I will sport all kinds of wood.
<i>sign me up !!</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I know a lot of people think pugs are fun when they don't have their members on.
<i>sign me up !!</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I enjoy having a boring good time.
As long as you don't mind playing on US servers, anyone can join.
This idea is great because it gets new players into a pseudo clan environment, and lets current clan members get a change of pace. This new league would certainly not replace existing clans. If you think its a bad idea, fine. It will not affect you life in any way if you ignore it, but it is a great idea that should still be tried.
The above is the most important aspect of the draft idea. I'm all for any idea that might help increase interest in clan competition...
<i>sign me up !!</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you say with, I assume you mean on the same team. But isn't it also fun to play against (read: pwnz0r) your friends and clanm8s once in a while? <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> Just a thought on a different way of looking at this. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> If the idea of being forced to play against your amigos is too much, then so be it...
Also what is to stop people from rigging the scoring. i.e. Player A is really should have a score of 5, but deliberately earns a score of 2 so that he can be on a team with another 5 player. So the team would be getting two "5" players, when they should be getting a 2 and a 5.
Mixing the talent to balance it out kind of ruins the game for the people who dedicate enough time to be skilled at it. Maybe more clans should just form up, instead of a draft league. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Figure it this way. It doesn't matter how good you are, or how uber your clan is. If you aren't feeding the basis of players, then the competetive side of NS is jus going to die.
It's the same in Europe too. There are top clans, then there are bottom clans. I mean, who the hell wants to play HAM every single round when they know they're going to lose? I'm sure some will still work, I mean I will, to get better. But you either make a sacrifice in playing with players whom you deem lowlier ( go go elitist attitude ) or you watch the competetive spirit of NS die.
The reason CS survives as much as it does is it's huge fanbase. But NS doesn't have that advantage. I know top clans see this as trying to screw them over, but I think more good will come out of it than bad. Besides, we're still thinking up checks and balances for the whole clan deal. We want everyone to have a good shot at winning.
Also, the 1.04 clan scene vets that are going "oh hrrrumph well doesn't sound fun to me" - you're missing the point. It's not <i>for</i> you. You wanna help? Great. If you're not interested, that's great too. This is to get new people into the clan scene, and to get them playing other new people. A good way to kill a new clan is to have them show up and get crushed 14-0 in 2-3 nights of scrimmaging. And then to find that they got crushed playing clans that get similarly owned by the top3. The road to competence, at that point, looks like a long hard road in a small, foundering community. This league should get back that same feel we all had with our first scrims against fellow nubs in 1.03 and 1.04.
No I don't mean like 6 members of a clan, but 2 people should be able to request to go together and as long as they arn't both superstars/supersh** there should be no reason not to place them togther.
Oh course the team leader would have to pay the cost of the 2 possible + or - a little to offset the fact that they went together.
I think people will wanna have at least 1 friend on thier team.
BTW I am tottally up for this, sounds great.
I love the game/am a pretty competitive player however I don't go tromping through forums so I will never get a clan invite.
-Stick100/MTaco
And just for sh*ts and giggles you could also run a NS:C tourny at the same time with the same teams. (So there wouldn't be so much waiting around).
And again, we aren't asking you give up your clans. We're asking you save them.
As far as a counsel to pick teams, I've considered this. It would do alot toward keeping teams fun and even, but the counsel would have to be pretty unbiased and I'm not exactly sure how that would happen.
Here's a thought of a way to do it if we can get enough people who have never played with a clan before.
We'd have two groups:
Group 1 - Draft all the commanders of the current clans. Some clans have more than one person who can play commander well. In our case at least myself and steamed could be drafted and green isnt too shabby either when he wants to comm. So then once you've seperated all the commanders into different teams, you only let non-clan members on their teams and the commanders try to show them the ropes and explain the strategy to them and play with them.
Group 2 - Undoubtedly there will be commanders-in-training who want to play in a competitive environment. In this case you start the team with 1 pub commander and 2 clan players. Then the rest of the roster is filled with players who are not currently in clans. In this case the 2 clan players may offset the somewhat inexperienced commander and they would take the role of educating the commander and the rest of the team about strategy and how things are done.
There may be more teams in group 1 then there are in group 2 or it might be the other way around. Either way once you've finished making the teams you combine the 2 groups and set up some kind of a tournament.
But in general I think for this thing to really have any impact and really work well that the ratio of Clan members to Pub players should be like 1:6. If you can pull that off then that means a) since there will be so few clan players you can selectively pick people who actually want to help the community and b) you have enough interest that alot of the draft players will probably go on to join clans or form their own.
but i would still probably sign up if you got rid of that dumb stuff.