<!--QuoteBegin--Kheras+Oct 10 2003, 06:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kheras @ Oct 10 2003, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People choose many things that hurt themselves. But this doesn't hurt them directly, just changes the way some folks react to them. Maybe they want attention, maybe they were abused, maybe they just don't like the opposite sex for whatever reason, maybe they live somewhere filled with ugly women. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> /shrug. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Many straight people get abused and they don't turn g@y because of it, a lot of straight people are attention hores.
And if you don't think it hurts them directly you're wrong.
edited, sorry if you felt it was a personal attack.
Never said it was a bad thing to be g-a-y tough guy. I said that I find it distasteful, just like I find coffee bars and the state of North Dakota distasteful. But I do not feel violent about it. /shrug
I also said that I do not believe people are born that way, and I said there is no evidence that proves they are. There are simply no facts either way. People can choose to believe there are, but they can be right or they can be wrong.
And for that I am called a closet homo, a bigot, and told to go do something that could get me killed. Nice.
I could have gotten beaten up for having a DoD sticker (my choice of where to work) and driving through a "peace" rally. Intolerant people prove nothing, because they are in no way related to whether or not a person makes the choices they make.
People shouldn't have to point to "I was born that way!" evidence to justify themselves.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe your just ignorant and insecure with your sexuality. Why can't you people just say I personally don't find homosexualtiy appealing and that is my opinion, why must you always try to justify your opinion with ignorant facts, it just makes you look like a biggot honestly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe he actually believe that. No matter how mislead or ignorant his position is, this is a discussion board not a bash the person who makes a post. If he says something bad he will look like an A$$, you dont have to revert to name calling.
Listen guys. First of all let's get something clear, because obviously I don't think everyone is on par with how to talk civily to other people.
<b>It is unlikely for you to be able to use a single fact and take it in a subjective matter and offer it up as an absolute truth / standard</b>
Sorry, you can't do that, it simply breaks down to an opinionated matter, so you cannot put down a non-religious standard !
Do I know homosexuals ? Yes I do.
Do I dislike them ? No way, I like their personality and behavior much more than other self interested people. I'm also glad that they treat women so kindly, although I disagree with their lifestyle, I'm happy that they are so kind to women.
Am I "biggot" ?
Absolutely not !
You cannot come here, and then be completely perturbed when people disagree with you, so please don't resort to calling, anyone names. Insecure with sexuality ? Whose to be the standard for behavior ? Good ? Bad ? Someone may be secure but might live completely irresponsibly, is that a standard everyone should live up to ?
Honestly guys, let's <i>understand</i> that when you say something, it is subjective, and not everyone who disagrees is bad.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was wondering what you guys thought of homo and bisexuality, from a non-religious standpoint. Do you think it's wrong? If so, why? Do you think one is wrong, but not the other? Why? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People have been stating if they think it's wrong, and why, and people start calling names, I'll just jump in ns-staff on IRC and ask a mod to close this if we break down to calling people bigots again, that's not only ridiculous and ill-founded, but it's just as critical as you claim other people are being.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kheras+Oct 10 2003, 06:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kheras @ Oct 10 2003, 06:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I also said that I do not believe people are born that way, and I said there is no evidence that proves they are. There are simply no facts either way. People can choose to believe there are, but they can be right or they can be wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So, if they're not born that way, then it's a choice right ? So you could just choose to be attracted to the same sex at will ? I'd like to see you try <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well, I certainly couldn't. But that does not mean that other folks can't. People experiment, just not all in the same way. Humans are wired for it to feel good no matter how ya do it I guess. The rest is just up to the person.
I can see a lesbian's point of view easier than I can see a **** man's, being a guy. But I also know how insane women are, so I can sort of see the other point of view as well. Just would never be able to get over the whole "man a**" thing.
If someone else can, more power to 'em.
I will say one thing though. Clubs owned by **** folks are far superior. Just go when the straight crowd is there, and stay away from leather night.
Let's put this in perspective, take for example about 90% of the forum (according to several leading medical professionals, that is the number of straight people in today's society, this takes into consideration openinly, and those who try to keep it a secret. Alright, so suddenly if it's "wrong" to be straight, you're still going to be straight, it's natural, you're born with it, even if you wanted to be "****," you couldn't. Now that I have that in perspective, it is quite easy to see it <b>IS</b> something you are most likely born with. **** people are something today's society has to deal with. Whether you're bi, ****, lesbian, or straight, I doubt it's a choice.
I myself am semi accepting of **** people, however some try to "convert you," (Band Tatu for instance), and others think everybody else is like them.
That's still not saying much to natural. There's nothing natural about AIDS or any other diseases despite their presence, just because they are, doesn't mean it's natural.
<!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+Oct 10 2003, 07:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Oct 10 2003, 07:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's still not saying much to natural. There's nothing natural about AIDS or any other diseases despite their presence, just because they are, doesn't mean it's natural. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is natural to seek a partner in life. That's what they and anybody else does.
this whole natural thing is becoming annoying. it doesnt even mean anything anymore since the definition of natural has been changed and distorted so much. it doesnt even matter in the end anyway since it all comes back to the question of choise.
look at it like this then.
can we agree that most homosexuals will tell you being **** is NOT a lifestlye choice, and is inherant?
do you honestly beleive that <i> every single </i> homosexual person has joined part of a great conspiracy designed to trick heterosexuals into thinking that being **** is <i> not a choice </i> and is inherant? and that this lie is perpetuated by <i> every single </i> homosexual person simply to gain more rights for themselfs?!?!
because there is no boundary between your assertion of 'unnatural' and the logical conclusion that being **** is a choice, this is basically what you suggest.
Disagreeing with homosexuals being homosexuals is about as politically correct as saying you disagree with black people being black.
And Sirus, maybe you don't realize you are doing it, but saying g4ys are nice with women is a bit like saying blacks love watermelon and fried chicken. It's a stereotype, which we all know (hopefully) is not true in the broad sense. People seem to think g4ys love to be hair stylists and shop fashionably, but that's judging a category of people without even knowing them.
I'm aware of the stereotypes, but I have known far too many contradictions for stereotypes to even have a glimmer of a thought to consider it is correct.
I know 3 **** people who are real jackasses <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Arg guys, please don't let this degrade in to petty namecalling.
Homosexuals are still people. They're not some weird alien race, they're normal people. Some are nice, some are jerks. Some are normal people, some are psychos. They still laugh, cry, breathe, eat, sleep, use the washroom, work and play. The only real difference between hetero and homosexuals are what sex they are attracted to. Being homo or bisexual doesn't automatically make you a sex-starved pervert.
Also, stop knocking on Sirus. He's stating his opinion. You may not agree with it (I don't), but that is HIS opinion, and you have no right to try and force change on him, or insult him.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited October 2003
Quite right, CForrester. And like many people, we have an odd tendency to show up in the most unexpected of places. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Though I've come up with a theory as to why a lot of straight guys are uncomfortable around homosexual males... because they 'know how guys think', and it weirds them out to even have the possibility of another guy checking them out, the way they just checked out every female in the room.
This goes double for geeks hiding out in their parents' basements, looking up lesbian porn and only venturing out once or twice a day, while the rest of the time having that wonderful anonymity provided by the Internet to spout off that generated discomfort. Thus the cliche of 'I'm fine with g*y guys, just so long as they don't try to hit on me'.
The discomfort is still there, for the most part, as well as not wanting to have the *possibility* of engendering that same discomfort in other guys. Otherwise, they would simply be 'fine with g*y guys', and if one hits on them, politely decline with a quiet 'Er, you do realize I'm straight, right?' and possibly even go so far as a kiss on their cheek for those who are really secure with their own masculinity. Or... perhaps with their particular leanings. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sorry to strip aside the veil that a number of people have tugged over their worldview, but there is no care-bears-on-crack army waiting to march into town and carry off all the men for their own pleasure.
(edit) Oh, and Daza. I'm quite happy with the 'parts' I was born with, and would not have them any other way, thenkyouverymuch. (/edit)
FamDiaper-Wearing Dog On A BallJoin Date: 2002-02-17Member: 222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited October 2003
I find the talk about things being 'natural' to the human race to be rather an old fashioned way of thinking. The human race, and every other form of living creature, is in a constant state of evolution, formed by social change and genetic mutation. Thefore, someone who is different cannot be 'unnatural', just different, and the prosecution of those who are different is illegal in most western societies.
However, I do agree that, from an economic standpoint, there should not be low tax for legally married homosexual couples without children, but then there should aslo be not be low tax for heterosexual couples without children, and tax levies should only be given for those with children who can <i>prove</i> they are providing the child with a decent quality of care.
I believe in the cliche about insecurity about your own sexuality causing hostility towards homosexuals. I don't mean that homophobics are just waiting to pop out of the closet, but that they just haven't fully come to terms with their own sexuality - ie. the fact that there's a small dose of attraction to same sex in them too. It's normal, I don't believe 100% hetero- or homosexuals exist. The amount of homosexual experiences heterosexual men have is quite surprising actually. These range from really innocent small incidents to actually trying out things with another man. And it's the same with women.
Homosexuality is something that is natural to humans and many other animals. What is unnatural is the moral code we have created against it. Life's a lot simpler when you don't create problems for yourself. The homosexuals that I know are all nice people. I simply can't imagine what kind of problems I should have with them. Quite the opposite, I can imagine a number of additional problems that would surface if I had some problems with their way of life. I like my ordinary life as simple as possible and I believe very strongly in letting everyone mind their own personal business.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
I have a friend who is quite homophobic. I also fancy a girl who is bi (that led to some interesting conversations). I personally have no problem with either of them, although i'm not **** myself.
On a side note, when people start yelling "That's G4Y!" on a server, i start coming onto them. That's really funny that is, you should see them get angry and run...
Well, personally, i have no problem whatsoever with homosexuals or bisexuals. As far as i'm concerned they can do whatever they like in public just as a heterosexual couple would be allowed to. They're people for christ's sake, stop treating them like they're some sort of anomoly or freak of nature.
As for homosexual marriages, i'm both for and against this fact. I'm not going to go into my views in depth since a lot of it is based around religion, and this thread is specifically non-religious. Basically, the way i feel is, homosexuals should have a marriage, or equivalent, which entitles them to the same legal rights as a married heterosexual couple. That's the bit i agree with, the other part, the bit i disagree with, regards the religious aspects, and i won't go into them, just if the religion directly opposes or forbids homosexuality, then allowing a homosexual marriage, that is essentially blasphemous to that religion, just wouldn't be <i>right</i>.
Just a curious thing, has anyone else noticed that the people who get paranoid about guys hitting on them are always the ugly, sweaty guys that you'd not hit on anyway?
<!--QuoteBegin--::esuna::+Oct 11 2003, 09:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (::esuna:: @ Oct 11 2003, 09:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, personally, i have no problem whatsoever with homosexuals or bisexuals. As far as i'm concerned they can do whatever they like in public just as a heterosexual couple would be allowed to. They're people for christ's sake, stop treating them like they're some sort of anomoly or freak of nature.
As for homosexual marriages, i'm both for and against this fact. I'm not going to go into my views in depth since a lot of it is based around religion, and this thread is specifically non-religious. Basically, the way i feel is, homosexuals should have a marriage, or equivalent, which entitles them to the same legal rights as a married heterosexual couple. That's the bit i agree with, the other part, the bit i disagree with, regards the religious aspects, and i won't go into them, just if the religion directly opposes or forbids homosexuality, then allowing a homosexual marriage, that is essentially blasphemous to that religion, just wouldn't be <i>right</i>.
Just a curious thing, has anyone else noticed that the people who get paranoid about guys hitting on them are always the ugly, sweaty guys that you'd not hit on anyway? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd actually take it as a compliment if a g@y guy hit on me, I mean that means another guy found me hot enough to hit on, and we all know how shallow we are, or is it just me?
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Oct 12 2003, 03:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Oct 12 2003, 03:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--::esuna::+Oct 11 2003, 09:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (::esuna:: @ Oct 11 2003, 09:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, personally, i have no problem whatsoever with homosexuals or bisexuals. As far as i'm concerned they can do whatever they like in public just as a heterosexual couple would be allowed to. They're people for christ's sake, stop treating them like they're some sort of anomoly or freak of nature.
As for homosexual marriages, i'm both for and against this fact. I'm not going to go into my views in depth since a lot of it is based around religion, and this thread is specifically non-religious. Basically, the way i feel is, homosexuals should have a marriage, or equivalent, which entitles them to the same legal rights as a married heterosexual couple. That's the bit i agree with, the other part, the bit i disagree with, regards the religious aspects, and i won't go into them, just if the religion directly opposes or forbids homosexuality, then allowing a homosexual marriage, that is essentially blasphemous to that religion, just wouldn't be <i>right</i>.
Just a curious thing, has anyone else noticed that the people who get paranoid about guys hitting on them are always the ugly, sweaty guys that you'd not hit on anyway? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd actually take it as a compliment if a g@y guy hit on me, I mean that means another guy found me hot enough to hit on, and we all know how shallow we are, or is it just me? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a compliment really if anyone hits on your, regardless of gender. It means that you've been singled out amongst others. Either that or you look the most inebriated. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--DiscoZombie+Oct 10 2003, 01:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DiscoZombie @ Oct 10 2003, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Doug the Head+Oct 10 2003, 11:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Doug the Head @ Oct 10 2003, 11:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think that, from a strictly biological standpoint, homosexuality is wrong. I mean, if men were meant to have sex with other men, or women with women, then you wouldn't need people of the opposite sex to have a child. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Homosexulity is probably MORE common in the animal world than in the human world. Male dogs hump each other all the time, for example. Biology is a branch of science, not a system of values. If anything, biology proves homosexuality is fine; otherwise, it would have been bred out of all species rather than being pretty common. Homosexuals may not have a means of directly propagating the species, but they can still be productive and contributing members of their societies, helping the species in that way. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And to the argument that some people are "born ****," to me that just seems like a birth defect.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> if you assume there's something wrong with homosexuality, then yeah, I imagine it would be a defect in your eyes, much as black skin is a birth defect to Klansmen... <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->P.S. - Yes I have been around g4y people before, so i'm not ignorant on the subject. I had a g4y roomate for several months last year.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> guess you didn't like the guy much <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> hope you didn't make him feel TOO crappy... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey, I never said I don't like g4y <i>people</i>. I just don't think that homosexuality is a natural thing. The only times that animals have homosexual tendancies is when there are no animals of the opposite sex around.
<!--QuoteBegin--Doug the Head+Oct 12 2003, 04:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Doug the Head @ Oct 12 2003, 04:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hey, I never said I don't like g4y <i>people</i>. I just don't think that homosexuality is a natural thing. The only times that animals have homosexual tendancies is when there are no animals of the opposite sex around. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> maybe then homosexuals can't find anyone of the opposite sex?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only times that animals have homosexual tendancies is when there are no animals of the opposite sex around. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true. I'd drag Aegeri into this discussion with his uber biology knowledge but he probably doesn't want to <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> In any case, read up on the most famous example, bonobos. Quite closely related to humans btw. They'll have sex male-male, male-female, female-female regardless. Often they'll do it right when they find a new tree filled with fruit; everyone has sex, then once everyones a little more relaxed and calm, they all share the fruit. Good philosophy <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've posted in this thread once before, and with the length its attained since then in a day or two, shows just how controvercial that this topic is. No matter what, a persons opinion of this matter is completely based upon subjective material. Second, Peoples either comfort or discomfort or something there in between just shows how comfortable with tradition or change or amount of change one is comfortable with. I think its generally accepted that propagating the species is a point of life, and do that you need a male and female. Ok thats tradition, if your comfortable with something other than that, great, if your not great. It just shows how comfortable and how far you'll allow change to go before you think it needs to be stopped.
As i've said before people will do what people will do, i no negetive or positive standing on this opinion.
i am religous.. and this places me somewhere outside the discussion concerning that..
however.. i have friends that are homosexual, i work in the hostpitality industry and work with alot of homosexual men and women.. in my honest opinion i see it as .. thats you not me, you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't effect me or anyone else and vice versa.. it doesn't bother me
being hit on by a guy doesn't feel right, but thats me not you..
in addition Melatonin - there is only one species of animal that is known be homosexual and that is a frog..
(saw that on the discovery channel) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
edited October 2003
In the end, is it really rationel to think that Homosexuality is natural, does it have a purpose? Or could it be emotionel disorder? Also Talesin, I'd like some sort of info on how you obtained that knowledge <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT, Not to mention the obvious that homosexuality foes against Natural selection
<!--QuoteBegin--Epidemic+Oct 15 2003, 04:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Oct 15 2003, 04:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In the end, is it really rationel to think that Homosexuality is natural, does it have a purpose? Or could it be emotionel disorder? Also Talesin, I'd like some sort of info on how you obtained that knowledge <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT, Not to mention the obvious that homosexuality foes against Natural selection <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes (it occurs in nature), Yes, Yes, No. Not to mention people have sex for pleasure and companionship and we haven't been part of the Natural Selection cycle directly for a long time.
Comments
Many straight people get abused and they don't turn g@y because of it, a lot of straight people are attention hores.
And if you don't think it hurts them directly you're wrong.
edited, sorry if you felt it was a personal attack.
I also said that I do not believe people are born that way, and I said there is no evidence that proves they are. There are simply no facts either way. People can choose to believe there are, but they can be right or they can be wrong.
And for that I am called a closet homo, a bigot, and told to go do something that could get me killed. Nice.
I could have gotten beaten up for having a DoD sticker (my choice of where to work) and driving through a "peace" rally. Intolerant people prove nothing, because they are in no way related to whether or not a person makes the choices they make.
People shouldn't have to point to "I was born that way!" evidence to justify themselves.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe he actually believe that. No matter how mislead or ignorant his position is, this is a discussion board not a bash the person who makes a post. If he says something bad he will look like an A$$, you dont have to revert to name calling.
<b>It is unlikely for you to be able to use a single fact and take it in a subjective matter and offer it up as an absolute truth / standard</b>
Sorry, you can't do that, it simply breaks down to an opinionated matter, so you cannot put down a non-religious standard !
Do I know homosexuals ?
Yes I do.
Do I dislike them ?
No way, I like their personality and behavior much more than other self interested people. I'm also glad that they treat women so kindly, although I disagree with their lifestyle, I'm happy that they are so kind to women.
Am I "biggot" ?
Absolutely not !
You cannot come here, and then be completely perturbed when people disagree with you, so please don't resort to calling, anyone names. Insecure with sexuality ? Whose to be the standard for behavior ? Good ? Bad ? Someone may be secure but might live completely irresponsibly, is that a standard everyone should live up to ?
Honestly guys, let's <i>understand</i> that when you say something, it is subjective, and not everyone who disagrees is bad.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was wondering what you guys thought of homo and bisexuality, from a non-religious standpoint. Do you think it's wrong? If so, why? Do you think one is wrong, but not the other? Why?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People have been stating if they think it's wrong, and why, and people start calling names, I'll just jump in ns-staff on IRC and ask a mod to close this if we break down to calling people bigots again, that's not only ridiculous and ill-founded, but it's just as critical as you claim other people are being.
So, if they're not born that way, then it's a choice right ? So you could just choose to be attracted to the same sex at will ? I'd like to see you try <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I can see a lesbian's point of view easier than I can see a **** man's, being a guy. But I also know how insane women are, so I can sort of see the other point of view as well. Just would never be able to get over the whole "man a**" thing.
If someone else can, more power to 'em.
I will say one thing though. Clubs owned by **** folks are far superior. Just go when the straight crowd is there, and stay away from leather night.
I myself am semi accepting of **** people, however some try to "convert you," (Band Tatu for instance), and others think everybody else is like them.
It is natural to seek a partner in life. That's what they and anybody else does.
it doesnt even mean anything anymore since the definition of natural has been changed and distorted so much.
it doesnt even matter in the end anyway since it all comes back to the question of choise.
look at it like this then.
can we agree that most homosexuals will tell you being **** is NOT a lifestlye choice, and is inherant?
do you honestly beleive that <i> every single </i> homosexual person has joined part of a great conspiracy designed to trick heterosexuals into thinking that being **** is <i> not a choice </i> and is inherant?
and that this lie is perpetuated by <i> every single </i> homosexual person simply to gain more rights for themselfs?!?!
because there is no boundary between your assertion of 'unnatural' and the logical conclusion that being **** is a choice, this is basically what you suggest.
And Sirus, maybe you don't realize you are doing it, but saying g4ys are nice with women is a bit like saying blacks love watermelon and fried chicken. It's a stereotype, which we all know (hopefully) is not true in the broad sense. People seem to think g4ys love to be hair stylists and shop fashionably, but that's judging a category of people without even knowing them.
I'm aware of the stereotypes, but I have known far too many contradictions for stereotypes to even have a glimmer of a thought to consider it is correct.
Errmmm.
Homosexuals are still people. They're not some weird alien race, they're normal people. Some are nice, some are jerks. Some are normal people, some are psychos. They still laugh, cry, breathe, eat, sleep, use the washroom, work and play. The only real difference between hetero and homosexuals are what sex they are attracted to. Being homo or bisexual doesn't automatically make you a sex-starved pervert.
Also, stop knocking on Sirus. He's stating his opinion. You may not agree with it (I don't), but that is HIS opinion, and you have no right to try and force change on him, or insult him.
Though I've come up with a theory as to why a lot of straight guys are uncomfortable around homosexual males... because they 'know how guys think', and it weirds them out to even have the possibility of another guy checking them out, the way they just checked out every female in the room.
This goes double for geeks hiding out in their parents' basements, looking up lesbian porn and only venturing out once or twice a day, while the rest of the time having that wonderful anonymity provided by the Internet to spout off that generated discomfort. Thus the cliche of 'I'm fine with g*y guys, just so long as they don't try to hit on me'.
The discomfort is still there, for the most part, as well as not wanting to have the *possibility* of engendering that same discomfort in other guys. Otherwise, they would simply be 'fine with g*y guys', and if one hits on them, politely decline with a quiet 'Er, you do realize I'm straight, right?' and possibly even go so far as a kiss on their cheek for those who are really secure with their own masculinity.
Or... perhaps with their particular leanings. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sorry to strip aside the veil that a number of people have tugged over their worldview, but there is no care-bears-on-crack army waiting to march into town and carry off all the men for their own pleasure.
(edit) Oh, and Daza. I'm quite happy with the 'parts' I was born with, and would not have them any other way, thenkyouverymuch. (/edit)
However, I do agree that, from an economic standpoint, there should not be low tax for legally married homosexual couples without children, but then there should aslo be not be low tax for heterosexual couples without children, and tax levies should only be given for those with children who can <i>prove</i> they are providing the child with a decent quality of care.
Homosexuality is something that is natural to humans and many other animals. What is unnatural is the moral code we have created against it. Life's a lot simpler when you don't create problems for yourself. The homosexuals that I know are all nice people. I simply can't imagine what kind of problems I should have with them. Quite the opposite, I can imagine a number of additional problems that would surface if I had some problems with their way of life. I like my ordinary life as simple as possible and I believe very strongly in letting everyone mind their own personal business.
Nice post Talesin, BTW.
On a side note, when people start yelling "That's G4Y!" on a server, i start coming onto them. That's really funny that is, you should see them get angry and run...
As for homosexual marriages, i'm both for and against this fact. I'm not going to go into my views in depth since a lot of it is based around religion, and this thread is specifically non-religious. Basically, the way i feel is, homosexuals should have a marriage, or equivalent, which entitles them to the same legal rights as a married heterosexual couple. That's the bit i agree with, the other part, the bit i disagree with, regards the religious aspects, and i won't go into them, just if the religion directly opposes or forbids homosexuality, then allowing a homosexual marriage, that is essentially blasphemous to that religion, just wouldn't be <i>right</i>.
Just a curious thing, has anyone else noticed that the people who get paranoid about guys hitting on them are always the ugly, sweaty guys that you'd not hit on anyway?
As for homosexual marriages, i'm both for and against this fact. I'm not going to go into my views in depth since a lot of it is based around religion, and this thread is specifically non-religious. Basically, the way i feel is, homosexuals should have a marriage, or equivalent, which entitles them to the same legal rights as a married heterosexual couple. That's the bit i agree with, the other part, the bit i disagree with, regards the religious aspects, and i won't go into them, just if the religion directly opposes or forbids homosexuality, then allowing a homosexual marriage, that is essentially blasphemous to that religion, just wouldn't be <i>right</i>.
Just a curious thing, has anyone else noticed that the people who get paranoid about guys hitting on them are always the ugly, sweaty guys that you'd not hit on anyway? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd actually take it as a compliment if a g@y guy hit on me, I mean that means another guy found me hot enough to hit on, and we all know how shallow we are, or is it just me?
As for homosexual marriages, i'm both for and against this fact. I'm not going to go into my views in depth since a lot of it is based around religion, and this thread is specifically non-religious. Basically, the way i feel is, homosexuals should have a marriage, or equivalent, which entitles them to the same legal rights as a married heterosexual couple. That's the bit i agree with, the other part, the bit i disagree with, regards the religious aspects, and i won't go into them, just if the religion directly opposes or forbids homosexuality, then allowing a homosexual marriage, that is essentially blasphemous to that religion, just wouldn't be <i>right</i>.
Just a curious thing, has anyone else noticed that the people who get paranoid about guys hitting on them are always the ugly, sweaty guys that you'd not hit on anyway? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd actually take it as a compliment if a g@y guy hit on me, I mean that means another guy found me hot enough to hit on, and we all know how shallow we are, or is it just me? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a compliment really if anyone hits on your, regardless of gender. It means that you've been singled out amongst others. Either that or you look the most inebriated. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Homosexulity is probably MORE common in the animal world than in the human world. Male dogs hump each other all the time, for example. Biology is a branch of science, not a system of values. If anything, biology proves homosexuality is fine; otherwise, it would have been bred out of all species rather than being pretty common. Homosexuals may not have a means of directly propagating the species, but they can still be productive and contributing members of their societies, helping the species in that way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And to the argument that some people are "born ****," to me that just seems like a birth defect.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you assume there's something wrong with homosexuality, then yeah, I imagine it would be a defect in your eyes, much as black skin is a birth defect to Klansmen...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->P.S. - Yes I have been around g4y people before, so i'm not ignorant on the subject. I had a g4y roomate for several months last year.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
guess you didn't like the guy much <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> hope you didn't make him feel TOO crappy... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, I never said I don't like g4y <i>people</i>. I just don't think that homosexuality is a natural thing. The only times that animals have homosexual tendancies is when there are no animals of the opposite sex around.
maybe then homosexuals can't find anyone of the opposite sex?
meh...
Not true. I'd drag Aegeri into this discussion with his uber biology knowledge but he probably doesn't want to <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> In any case, read up on the most famous example, bonobos. Quite closely related to humans btw. They'll have sex male-male, male-female, female-female regardless. Often they'll do it right when they find a new tree filled with fruit; everyone has sex, then once everyones a little more relaxed and calm, they all share the fruit. Good philosophy <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
As i've said before people will do what people will do, i no negetive or positive standing on this opinion.
however.. i have friends that are homosexual, i work in the hostpitality industry and work with alot of homosexual men and women.. in my honest opinion i see it as .. thats you not me, you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't effect me or anyone else and vice versa.. it doesn't bother me
being hit on by a guy doesn't feel right, but thats me not you..
in addition Melatonin - there is only one species of animal that is known be homosexual and that is a frog..
(saw that on the discovery channel) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Or could it be emotionel disorder? Also Talesin, I'd like some sort of info on how you obtained that knowledge <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT, Not to mention the obvious that homosexuality foes against Natural selection
Or could it be emotionel disorder? Also Talesin, I'd like some sort of info on how you obtained that knowledge <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT, Not to mention the obvious that homosexuality foes against Natural selection <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes (it occurs in nature), Yes, Yes, No. Not to mention people have sex for pleasure and companionship and we haven't been part of the Natural Selection cycle directly for a long time.