Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
Apparently CD is amusing to hack, so the next version is almost anticipated just for the thrill of the challenge. It isn't really about not using doctors just because they can't cure everybody - it is about realizing that if somebody really wants to hack, then chances are they will hack. Seeing as there are so many holes in the system right now, the task of actually confronting this corruption seems gigantic to say the least... hate to sound pessimistic, but the only sound way of making sure that nobody is cheating in competition is to have clans compete in LANs with each computer being examined. Obviously that is not practical.
Nice post HAMBONE and I totaly agree, as a euro CD is demanded on 90% of our public servers let allone matchs its part of our game now to expect CD Required. WWCL does a poor job at enforcing cvars as its very (and I do mean very) easy to bypass. However resently Xtended play's admins installed HLG before the server was used for the UK Team trials as a nice surprise HLG can check file consistancy including sound files and scripts it deems 'cheats' (its aimbot / wallhack detection sucks tho) all the halflife guard config filles are editable of course , so If someone were to speak with the leagues/ladders and standardise a HLG setup for match play that combines CD required (for the ogc's etc and HLG for files/scripts) I think the situation could improve quite quickly.
CD is essential in my view for most NS servers, WWCL is VERY EASY to get past as thingy up there (^^^) said...
HLGaurd I have found to be good at enforcing file size and cvars, however it takes up a lot of cpu and can lag most full servers <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
What I have found best is a server with Cheating-Death and the amx-config-checker (plugin for the amx mod) it sets the standard for cvars and can stop most scripts <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> And you just have to trust people haven't edited thier player models to be bright green or summink <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I certainly appriciate and respect those like HAMBONE who have a stand on an issue and and don't compromise. However, I think people like him would do well to realize that THIS is how things are when things get competitive. If the leagues knows about something, and has decided (for whatever reason) to allow it, then you just have to accept it. I'd love to have a situation where it was nothing but skill, and nothing but the person behind the machine. But that just isn't going to happen online. Leagues make rules they can inforce. What people make it sound like however, is that it isn't a level playing field. The fact is, the rules are the same for everybody, and as long as people are following them it is fair. If everyone can use scripts, it is fair. You might prefer that scripts were illegal, but you can't expect people to conform to your ideas of fair play instead of those defined in the rules. Scripts are like nukes. We got'em because they got'em and no amount of lamenting the fact will change it. If that's enough to make you want to quit NS fine, but don't expect to find anything different in the next game you play. It will be there too, because this sort of thing occurs in ANY competitive setting. I think however, you are making a mistake when you blame scripts for the diminishing NS clan scene. The CS clan scene is alive and well, and they've had issues like this for many years.
How is saying don't bother using something that honestly does nothing a rediculous post? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It does nothing?
Stopping 95% of the hacks out there is 'nothing'?
Please.
Not to mention, any hack that does get by C-D is generally VERY FREAKING obvious to point out...
The smaller things, like aim correctors and some cvars such as interp are also protected with C-D.
Again, why get docters if they can't save everyone, it's just stupid foolish logic you are using dude.
wow you guys havent payed any attention to my posts apparently and I am surprised. What I posted about, editting textures, models, and sprites is the single biggest problem. CHEATING DEATH DOES NOT DETECT IT IN ANY WAY OR FORM. You can see through EVERY WALL ON THE Map, you can know where every player is with model editting, you can have 0 muzzle flash (even though it already is greatly reduced from 1.04). But you can so easily see through every wall on the map with texture editting, even an idiot could do it and consistency wouldnt do ****.
As much as i'd like write a long firmed post of why the many accusations about C-D and other "Hack-preventing" softwares arent too good for you people. Ill just bow and salute Hambone for starting this post. You now earned by respect. Couldnt agree more with you. Cheer's.
CD may block ex_interp but does it block it's other 2 sister commands? Hell there's an additional command that should be removed all together because of the effect it can have on gameplay.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nerdy+Oct 28 2003, 07:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nerdy @ Oct 28 2003, 07:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wow you guys havent payed any attention to my posts apparently and I am surprised. What I posted about, editting textures, models, and sprites is the single biggest problem. CHEATING DEATH DOES NOT DETECT IT IN ANY WAY OR FORM. You can see through EVERY WALL ON THE Map, you can know where every player is with model editting, you can have 0 muzzle flash (even though it already is greatly reduced from 1.04). But you can so easily see through every wall on the map with texture editting, even an idiot could do it and consistency wouldnt do ****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm...
C-D doesn't 'dectect' anything, because it's a prevention method, not a dection one.
Texture and animation editing needs to be fixed by Flay - of coruse C-D won't stop it.
i know their is a new league starting up like far2cool NS league, ive heard they will be using consistency 1 and CD ect... to force stuff like this to be put out.
Btw, i think the only time CD doesnt work for people is when u either have a virus or a cheat on your system, now the only person i've seen who refuesed to play on CD server was caught cheating with aimbot less than 2 days later, make sense?
th0r0nBorn again n00b Join Date: 2003-06-12Member: 17313Members
Can WWCL be implemented into an NS league? I remember using it in CS and it was pretty good.
Yeah, I understand what you mean about all teh cheap config hacks, they are pretty annoying, I think everyone pub player on the planet is using the rate command as every server i join is lagoriffic with fantastic pings..
It is sad that people will go that far, but it's not so different than people optimising their cars in a motor race.
I always play NS with the default halflife install, all I do is change the graphics, bind p to /say /stuck and change my sensitivity and i'm good to go.
I wish Halflife didn't have such an 'Open Source' command line <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
True C-D doesn't stop everything, but it's better than nothing at all; I mean there's at least something there to try and stop them from cheating in <b>some</b> way and it's at least updated every so often; all of that is a lot better than nothing at all.
th0r0nBorn again n00b Join Date: 2003-06-12Member: 17313Members
However, judging by the posts on this forums, there are many many people that love this game, and if the older clans die the new ones will move in to the vet program, it's all a cycle.
<!--QuoteBegin--th0r0n^+Oct 28 2003, 12:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (th0r0n^ @ Oct 28 2003, 12:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and if the older clans die the new ones will move in to the vet program, it's all a cycle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yet to see that happen <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Nerdy+Oct 28 2003, 06:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nerdy @ Oct 28 2003, 06:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wow you guys havent payed any attention to my posts apparently and I am surprised. What I posted about, editting textures, models, and sprites is the single biggest problem. CHEATING DEATH DOES NOT DETECT IT IN ANY WAY OR FORM. You can see through EVERY WALL ON THE Map, you can know where every player is with model editting, you can have 0 muzzle flash (even though it already is greatly reduced from 1.04). But you can so easily see through every wall on the map with texture editting, even an idiot could do it and consistency wouldnt do ****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ...
consistency stops that, its called a checksum.
Anyways, stop the baloney. No one's trying to catch up to the vet clans, and not every vet clan cheats. I'm sorry HAMBONE, but I for one am sick of the weekly "OMG NS COMMUNITY IS DYING" posts. I know of plently of new clans with a lot of potential, mine for example, and we don't script0rz.
first off don't ever listen to Last , thats just common knowledge. um yeah scripting is rampent nowadays and I do have a problem with it you guys arent playing the game the way it was meant to be played you guys arent taking the time to learn the skillz that your script acheive and thats pretty sad you guys. as for the people who exploit lag choke or what ever so that makes it hard for them to be killed thats on the same level as cheating as ogc I don't care what you say you are no better then the rest of them.
i had a talk to chamois about some of this, and i secearly hope it gets fixed fast in the next patch, before it ruins all of ns...
compedative ns play has enough problems as it is, dont need this hanging overhead.
and kudos to hambone to bringing it to the public... i was thinking about doing something similar, just realising the variables so at least everyone had a free playing field...
Good effort Hambone for raising this, it's a great question and shows your care for the community. Again a lot of arguments about anti-cheat tools which I will refrain from getting in to. All I would say is CD is the best we have at the moment and I wouldn't even think of playing a clan without it due to interp abuse.
Possibly WWCL checker could be modified to check for other varialbeles to ensure a level playing field? I certainly agree that any kind of scripting is a bum one and should be discouraged.
1st of all: thanx hambone to get up the focus on that <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
don't know much about that technology behind but interesting that in "good old europe" more servers are running anti-cheat-tech. do they had more problems due to cheaters or was it about? is there a different "spirit"?
For the people dissing C-D.. grow up/get a general clue
Ofcourse it won't stop 100% of cheats, but it does a damned good job at getting most and it's updated reguarly. People giving up their time to code anti cheat should be praised, not looked upon as useless like some of you seem to think.
There was interesting article a while back too, where an ex cheat coder said C-D was making their lives a misery, as its so much harder to get round than VAC.
C-D is also decent too, as their are only 2 reasons why a client can't run it - they <b>are</b> using a cheat or they have a virus.
I'm also going to agree on the wwcl issue, it is unfortunately easy to get round and .torment. are now opting for HLGUARD instead, also co-ordinated by <a href='http://www.unitedadmins.com' target='_blank'>unitedadmins.com</a> who run C-D.
And the bunnyhopping thing... If Flayra wanted to nerf alien bhopping, he would have. I also agree most of the whiners are people who can't actually do it.. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> And also the ones who turn to scripts.
I think in short though, getting Cheating-Death on your server, along with hlguard and mp_consistency set to 1 s a great step forward. It won't completely solve everything, but it's a damned good start.
Then, like Nerdy said, we need a method of a proper consistency check, I know full well that some players have modified models and sounds to recreate the effect of drawviewmodel 0 and even people lowering the sound of the knife, so when when attacking a res tower skulks can be heard more easily... And in co-operation with that, we need to ask the scripters for meta/admin mod to help us come up with a script blocker in some form.
gg HAMBONE for starting, don't let this subject die. Be nice to see some support from the higher powers in NS though *hint* Flayra
I'm kinda curious as to how steam/vac handles modded files, anyone know anything about that?
Also I feel that upon release of 2.1 and ns becoming a steam/valve supported mod (eg. inherent in 'my games' in steam) we'll see a steady influx of players who maybe werent so aware of ns beforehand, including many cs players & clans. Taking this into consideration I feel that on release of 2.1 ns will prosper competitively and non-competitively, to add an aside into this debate.
I am going to put my 2 cents worth in. I lead a small new clan, TwhS, and I have made it clear that any sort of cheats (which includes scrips like the bunnyhopping and pistol scrips) will get who ever is caught with them will be kicked out of the clan and banned from our server. If you played against me, you would think I am worthless and have no right being in a clan, because I am defintaley not the most skilled player, but I would rather be bad mouthed by other clans and still have my clans honor intact then ever sink to the level of those clans who will use anything to make sure they will.
1) I don't understand why you'd need C-D. I have a problem with the concept of requiring C-D in CAL from a standpoint of courtesy. When you use it it's like you're being accused of hacking even if you aren't. I get accused of hacking on pubs all the time from ignorant newbies and it's simply not fun. I don't have a problem with playing on servers that have C-D since it's a pretty simple program to deal with. There is also the fact that C-D doesn't detect the most common hacks for NS. And finally that anything that C-D detects is usually obvious anyway. (I.E. you can spec someone and figure it out in at least a couple rounds.)
2) I don't understand why you wouldn't require something like WWCL. All of the things it can deal with are things that are NOT obvious, such as who is using a bunnyhop script or who is using commands to fake being really laggy. These are additionally the most prevelant problems in competitive play. Why would you not want to fix them even if it sacrificed a little server speed.
Wow...glad to see no one understood the point I was trying to make:
If you use a bunnyhopping script and thats legal, why wouldn't aimbots be legal?
If you use an exploit, no matter how small of an advantage it gives you, then thats just not true competition anymore. I know I'm probably being greedy, but I just believe true competition is a perfect set of rules and regulations.
I'm not really going to aimbot, but I loved the feedback I received from some people; had some good laughs at your stupidity.
Comments
HLGaurd I have found to be good at enforcing file size and cvars, however it takes up a lot of cpu and can lag most full servers <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
What I have found best is a server with Cheating-Death and the amx-config-checker (plugin for the amx mod) it sets the standard for cvars and can stop most scripts <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> And you just have to trust people haven't edited thier player models to be bright green or summink <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
How is saying don't bother using something that honestly does nothing a rediculous post? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does nothing?
Stopping 95% of the hacks out there is 'nothing'?
Please.
Not to mention, any hack that does get by C-D is generally VERY FREAKING obvious to point out...
The smaller things, like aim correctors and some cvars such as interp are also protected with C-D.
Again, why get docters if they can't save everyone, it's just stupid foolish logic you are using dude.
Hell there's an additional command that should be removed all together because of the effect it can have on gameplay.
Umm...
C-D doesn't 'dectect' anything, because it's a prevention method, not a dection one.
Texture and animation editing needs to be fixed by Flay - of coruse C-D won't stop it.
Btw, i think the only time CD doesnt work for people is when u either have a virus or a cheat on your system, now the only person i've seen who refuesed to play on CD server was caught cheating with aimbot less than 2 days later, make sense?
Yeah, I understand what you mean about all teh cheap config hacks, they are pretty annoying, I think everyone pub player on the planet is using the rate command as every server i join is lagoriffic with fantastic pings..
It is sad that people will go that far, but it's not so different than people optimising their cars in a motor race.
I always play NS with the default halflife install, all I do is change the graphics, bind p to /say /stuck and change my sensitivity and i'm good to go.
I wish Halflife didn't have such an 'Open Source' command line <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Because of this, you'll see many 1.04 scrubs with excellent records in CAL for this season.
Yet to see that happen <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
...
consistency stops that, its called a checksum.
Anyways, stop the baloney. No one's trying to catch up to the vet clans, and not every vet clan cheats. I'm sorry HAMBONE, but I for one am sick of the weekly "OMG NS COMMUNITY IS DYING" posts. I know of plently of new clans with a lot of potential, mine for example, and we don't script0rz.
compedative ns play has enough problems as it is, dont need this hanging overhead.
and kudos to hambone to bringing it to the public...
i was thinking about doing something similar, just realising the variables so at least everyone had a free playing field...
hope this gets fixed asap.
Possibly WWCL checker could be modified to check for other varialbeles to ensure a level playing field? I certainly agree that any kind of scripting is a bum one and should be discouraged.
don't know much about that technology behind but interesting that in "good old europe" more servers are running anti-cheat-tech. do they had more problems due to cheaters or was it about? is there a different "spirit"?
Ofcourse it won't stop 100% of cheats, but it does a damned good job at getting most and it's updated reguarly. People giving up their time to code anti cheat should be praised, not looked upon as useless like some of you seem to think.
There was interesting article a while back too, where an ex cheat coder said C-D was making their lives a misery, as its so much harder to get round than VAC.
C-D is also decent too, as their are only 2 reasons why a client can't run it - they <b>are</b> using a cheat or they have a virus.
I'm also going to agree on the wwcl issue, it is unfortunately easy to get round and .torment. are now opting for HLGUARD instead, also co-ordinated by <a href='http://www.unitedadmins.com' target='_blank'>unitedadmins.com</a> who run C-D.
And the bunnyhopping thing... If Flayra wanted to nerf alien bhopping, he would have. I also agree most of the whiners are people who can't actually do it.. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> And also the ones who turn to scripts.
I think in short though, getting Cheating-Death on your server, along with hlguard and mp_consistency set to 1 s a great step forward. It won't completely solve everything, but it's a damned good start.
Then, like Nerdy said, we need a method of a proper consistency check, I know full well that some players have modified models and sounds to recreate the effect of drawviewmodel 0 and even people lowering the sound of the knife, so when when attacking a res tower skulks can be heard more easily... And in co-operation with that, we need to ask the scripters for meta/admin mod to help us come up with a script blocker in some form.
gg HAMBONE for starting, don't let this subject die. Be nice to see some support from the higher powers in NS though *hint* Flayra
Also I feel that upon release of 2.1 and ns becoming a steam/valve supported mod (eg. inherent in 'my games' in steam) we'll see a steady influx of players who maybe werent so aware of ns beforehand, including many cs players & clans. Taking this into consideration I feel that on release of 2.1 ns will prosper competitively and non-competitively, to add an aside into this debate.
1) I don't understand why you'd need C-D. I have a problem with the concept of requiring C-D in CAL from a standpoint of courtesy. When you use it it's like you're being accused of hacking even if you aren't. I get accused of hacking on pubs all the time from ignorant newbies and it's simply not fun. I don't have a problem with playing on servers that have C-D since it's a pretty simple program to deal with. There is also the fact that C-D doesn't detect the most common hacks for NS. And finally that anything that C-D detects is usually obvious anyway. (I.E. you can spec someone and figure it out in at least a couple rounds.)
2) I don't understand why you wouldn't require something like WWCL. All of the things it can deal with are things that are NOT obvious, such as who is using a bunnyhop script or who is using commands to fake being really laggy. These are additionally the most prevelant problems in competitive play. Why would you not want to fix them even if it sacrificed a little server speed.
If you use a bunnyhopping script and thats legal, why wouldn't aimbots be legal?
If you use an exploit, no matter how small of an advantage it gives you, then thats just not true competition anymore. I know I'm probably being greedy, but I just believe true competition is a perfect set of rules and regulations.
I'm not really going to aimbot, but I loved the feedback I received from some people; had some good laughs at your stupidity.