Ive seen alot of posting about cheating death. In my experiences with counter-strike and now ns, I've come to learn that CD doesnt do a whole lot. While CD does remove the most obvious cheats that are easily downloadable, those who really wish to cheat and not get caught can easily get away with playing on CD servers so long as the cheats they use arent mainstream. In cs there is VAC(valve anti cheat), HL-Guard, CS-guard, WWCL, each of these does the job of CD. NS needs something like that, not just CD.
While I do see CD as a good first step, this cant be the last step. There needs to be some sort of implementation of HL-Guard or VAC or wwcl into NS. This will stop all the cl_rate, ex_interp, and file consistency problems, so long as the ns versions are equivalant to the CS standards.
As for those cheaters who have their own cheats, such as no wallz, or aimbots, they are very easy to detect unless the person using these cheats is very good at hiding them. To detect those who do cheat all you need is a trained eye and your own cheats, as in watching first person demos with wall hack on.
Those of you who thing that ns will die with out some form of cheat prevention, you are correct. I am glad that other respected clans all feel the same as we do, and we surely hope the rest of the community does as well.
For those who are wondering, yes this is my first post here, because this is the first thread I felt worthy of a response.
The difference is that aimbots are illegal for CAL play whereas scripts are not.
On a personal note, I find scripts a bit like taking creatin as an athlete. The general public may not approve, some players may not approve, but its still going to go on, because its just barely on the good side of the rules.
The thing is.. If something that is found so dishonorable but its on the correct side of the threshold, why not move the threshold back some. Then you run into the problem that maybe the next thing in line is found dishonorable and we need to move the threshold back again.
I personally have no beef with how CAL rules stand and how the community has been acting lately, if for no other reason than the fact that we can't really do anything about it. If we change the rules to make scripts illegal, what will be illegal next?
There is no single answer. We all have our preferences. I think the current rules satisfy as many preferences as possible.
Yeah it does block the most obvious, but its updated a lot to combat the newer cheats.
C-D working with HL-Guard on an ns server is the best prevention we can do atm. I'd rather have Cheating Death on my server than nothing.
Also, its a really small download [like 250k] and doesnt affect hl performance in anyway, peopel that refuse to run it have somethign to hide or are just arguing for the sake of it.
1. Implementing md5 checking through a plugin would be trivial, I'm sure there's one out already. It should be required on every match server as far as I'm concerned.
2. HLGuard and WWCL, while both good ideas, do have their problems. I remember a while ago there was a lot of controversy in the CS community when it was discovered that WWCL did some weird things to player hitboxes. I think the problem has been fixed now, at least on the CS side, but it's worth noting that something similar could happen to NS. Can someone who knows more about the CS scene comment on this?
3. Every time I've played NS on an HLGuard-enabled server, the skulk bite has had serious timing issues. This is a documented issue that has caused many servers to remove HLGuard. Once again, it may have been fixed in the meantime, but I wouldn't know as most servers stopped using it.
I'm not really trying to make a point here, just bringing up some issues that people should look at before going into a frenzy and installing a dozen mods on their servers.
I totally agree with hambone, there's alot of people who have no morals or anything, a bunch of teams on which I clearly shows that not all but a couple of the members in that clan scripts. And even in my own team, yes, he used a script for his pistol etc... but also, I've been saying to him that scripts are stupid and useless, and that i hate them, and now thankfully, he stopped using it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
But yes, im also sad about all the clans that have died, and that made the competitive scene a very small one, but now, with all the scripts around, there are only... 2-4 teams that i only like playing against. And also those are teams that i know that don't use scripts, and if they do, it's nothing more then a pistol script. Those clans are: HAM, GoM, TU, damage network (but one of the members just admitted to using a Bhop script, and i rather he do that, then deny it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and xen. The rest of the teams that i've played against or that are in CAL, that i haven't mentioned, and that don't script, it's probobly because i don't play vs your team enough. but nonetheless, thanks for not scripting <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And also HAMBONE, don't drop the competitive scene, i really need a team that has good morals to play against, and that has plenty of skill <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
but yes hopefully, the clan scene doesn't die, i don't feel like getting back into mmorpg's nor CS. And in pre-season for CAL (way back in 1.04) there wasn't really a bunch of teams that used scripts and those were the days, so that's why alot of people chose to not have CD or WWCL because it wasn't needed, now with everyone using scripts (well, a large population) i think that those might need to be put in place with file consistency (it's really needed)
This could be some of it, but this is not the sole reason as to why the clan scene is dying, imbalances within the game and repetitive gameplay is what makes it boring for me.
i still think if steam ns or any new updated ns would make a system that scanned for any change or add on to ns itselfs and banned the cd key or not let the person join a server owuld stop it, i know this wouldent work for scripts but it would stop alot of the problems. the only way ur going ot stop these thing from happening is by taking harsh action u cant jsut think ti well go away ppl r stupid and they well use that stupidness any way possable. if some1 decides they want to F around and cheat they should be banned, not worth having around. not worth the problems jsut get rid of the people. it well make every one think twice about cheating. it would take extra time to make but it is worth it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Graham+Oct 28 2003, 02:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Graham @ Oct 28 2003, 02:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also, its a really small download [like 250k] and doesnt affect hl performance in anyway, peopel that refuse to run it have somethign to hide or are just arguing for the sake of it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly, people who don't like C-D are full of it, tbh.
It prevents 90% of the hacks out there It stops some cvars like ex_interp No lag No CPU usage (unless you have 16 RAM... then ya, it would hurt)
FFS, it's a free meal, and yet I see people deny it.
OK well here is my message to all of you people complaining about users of scripts: you're talking to the wrong people. If you don't want people to use scripts, lobby CAL to make it illegal. If it were illegal in CAL I know I wouldn't use any scripts, even if CAL had no good way of detecting them. But being as it is legal, and I have to compete against people using them, I'm not about to put myself at a disadvantage for some foggy notion of "pure skill". I play by the rules, pure and simple. Complain all you want, but it is falling on deaf ears.
<!--QuoteBegin--UGL|Andrew+Oct 28 2003, 02:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UGL|Andrew @ Oct 28 2003, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But yes, im also sad about all the clans that have died, and that made the competitive scene a very small one, but now, with all the scripts around, there are only... 2-4 teams that i only like playing against. And also those are teams that i know that don't use scripts, and if they do, it's nothing more then a pistol script. Those clans are: HAM, GoM, TU, damage network (but one of the members just admitted to using a Bhop script, and i rather he do that, then deny it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and xen. The rest of the teams that i've played against or that are in CAL, that i haven't mentioned, and that don't script, it's probobly because i don't play vs your team enough. but nonetheless, thanks for not scripting <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And also HAMBONE, don't drop the competitive scene, i really need a team that has good morals to play against, and that has plenty of skill <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Someone knows who TU is and actually enjoys scrimming with us? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The fact that this thread has to come is rather upsetting. I always thought of a sports competition (be it online or in real life) as putting skill against skill. When it becomes a "do whatever you can to win as long as it's not hacking" sure it's still competition, but it's no longer the gentlemenly sport that it once was. It's just a cut throat bunch of people each trying to get every edge over their opponents they can. Those are people I'd rather not be playing with. You can add C-D, wwcl, or whatever kind of abreviated programs you want, that won't solve the problem. The problem is the people who do whatever it takes to win and aren't interested so much in *playing* a game as winning one.
<!--QuoteBegin--Sling_Blade+Oct 28 2003, 04:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sling_Blade @ Oct 28 2003, 04:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OK well here is my message to all of you people complaining about users of scripts: you're talking to the wrong people. If you don't want people to use scripts, lobby CAL to make it illegal. If it were illegal in CAL I know I wouldn't use any scripts, even if CAL had no good way of detecting them. But being as it is legal, and I have to compete against people using them, I'm not about to put myself at a disadvantage for some foggy notion of "pure skill". I play by the rules, pure and simple. Complain all you want, but it is falling on deaf ears. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed
all NS really needs right now is consistency checks on models and wads, and locking cvars. Anyone who aimbots would be spotted immediately I would think. open GL wallhacks from what i've heard are severly limited by the engine only drawing things you should see for some time now.
the first steps should be those, not CD, though i will still use CD gladly
we can only get so much from the half-life engine. It makes you want to look forward to another game and a new engine.
I hope HL2 won't be so hack-infested. I hear a 3rd of the source code was stolen too, and that a beta version of it is out somewhere, but that's just a rumor.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited October 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Marq+Oct 28 2003, 02:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marq @ Oct 28 2003, 02:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not really going to aimbot, but I loved the feedback I received from some people; had some good laughs at your stupidity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yet another example of your attitude. I'm not sure why I bother responding to it, but I will. No one in this thread posted a reply that implied they believed you would cheat. You either noticed that, but chose to ignore it, or you somehow didn't notice it. Either way, I think it's fairly obvious that for some reason you're intent on starting a 'flamewar' in this thread.
You have to respect the cool calm way that this thread was presented, to be honest I feel way to strongly about this topic to defer. I have played NS for almost a full year now, I have watched great players come and I have watched them go. In this year I have had some of the best gaming experiances that I can remember. Unfortunatly there is a plague on this game. What used to be fun has grown serious, what used to be freindly has grown ugly. Competitive play, CAL in perticular, has been spawning some seriously judgment impaird players.
I have spent many hard months working with my clan in the hopes of bringing us up to a high level in CAL, almost a month ago I finally realized that I would have to bring them down in order to bring them up. FFT spent many hard weeks debateing the morals of changing variables in our config files. When the smoke cleared the only config that was tweeked was hud_fastswitch 0 from its preset of 1. And to be honest I feel that even changing this is an unfair advantage, but I pushed for even more tweeking.
Why would I do this? The answer is obvious. Many Top CAL clans at the moment actively use scripts, and/or config changes. It has gotten so bad that some clans use config changes that dont even seem to affect the game at all, in an almost superstious attempt to gain a competitive edge. In talking with many clan members, playtesters and veteans, I have been forced to draw the conclusion that the config armes race is on. In the early days of NS the credo was "May the best team win", but now there is a blemish on the face of Natural Selection's One year anniversary and the credo has changed to "May the best script win".
Some people may accuse me of being parinoid. Others may say I'm resentful of other players skill. Belive what you like. I respect the talents in this community, but I have become so frustrated with this problem that I felt I should speek my true feelings. Every one of us who is tired of this "arms race", I hope you will start speeking up. HAMBONE is correct, this problem can be fixed But it means that many nasty demons will have to be drug out of the closet, and i'm just not sure Clans are prepaired to do that.
I can personally say that I know of four config changes that can give a NS player an unfair advantage, as well as two others that some people claim work but in all my tests I saw no noticable difference. If I know of them then its a fair bet hurdreds of others do as well. Combine these with Scripts and it makes for a seriously nasty advantage.
This is a plague, and it hurts the community. This problem causes people to suspect others, as well as hurl dirty accusations. It spawns distrust and resentment. I hope for the best, but I have begun to prepair for the worst. I Hate config changes and scripts I belive if you use them you are no better then Jessen or the Mygot gang etc. Anytime you have an advantage that the other team is not aware of YOU ARE CHEATING plain and simple, even if the league you play in allows it. If you belive otherwise you are part of the problem. As I said at the top of this post I lack the eloquence of HAMBONE, and I respect his restraint in airing this topic, but I harbor strong feelings in this matter.
I stopped playing in CAL a few weeks ago, this issue of configs and scripts was the core reason. I was unable to convince my clan to use these modifications, so that we could be competitive with the clans that we play. I am glad that they had the strength to tell me no becouse I lost sight of what was important. I guess you could say I was weak. This pushing to change configs spawned from my frustration. I am frustrated becouse I have played this game for one year now and some how It seems I am still unable to shoot some clan players accurately, even though I am well versed in HL hit boxes/cylinders. Granted I'm not even in the top 100 players of this game, but I'm a good player, and I've had the pleasure of playing with the best during 2.0 playtesting. Some clan players are just <u>too</u> good. I know that even by saying this I will be labeled a NUB by <u>some</u> vets, but I don't care. Becouse many of those same people have changes in there config files and run bhopping/pistol scripts.
This post Is not a FLAME, and I hope people will see that I am purgeing my sins. I hope others will come forward and share their demons, that the truth may finnaly see the light of day. I may sound overly serious to some , but I feel a close bond with the NS community, and I fear that this as well as other issues are starting to tear it apart.
The technology can probably fix this situation, but it is the mentality which is the overall problem. In both FLF and NS I've seen the same arc; the game comes out, people love it, clan competition thrives. Then the first hacks and exploits start to become common, and all of the fun dies because of the suspicion that wins and losses no longer have to do with pure skill. Hacks are fixed and cheaters exposed, but it doesn't really fix anything. The clan scene evaporates, the pubbers move onto another game, and the mod slips toward obscurity.
NS is still in its prime, of course, but players should be quite well aware of where their actions are taking the mod. The vast gray area of scripts and file editing might be difficult to detect and not precisely a cheat, but they undoubtedly violate the spirit of the game. Keep abusing the spirit of NS, and it won't survive long.
I don't know what kind of heavy duty Zen skills Flayra uses to deal with exploiters in the NS community, but if I'd worked this long on a game just to see a bunch of kids actively seek its ruin, I'd probably be on my third heart attack by now.
1. bhop script != jump script 2. bhop scripts suck 3. jump scripts allow you to do the same thing as binding mwheeldown or up to "+jump" 4. With a lil practice you can time your jumps <u>almost</u> as consistently as a script/mwheel. So much so that someone with a script/mwheel has no distinct advantage over you. 5. Pistol scripts hurt more than help. You can click faster with your finger and you have precise control over how many bullets you fire 6. Config changes like cl_rate and ex_interp are bad mmmmkay? I agree that steps should be taken to deal with these (maybe in the same way that they locked r_draw?).
Also I don't think the clan scene is dying because of cheating, although it may scare a few new clans away. The real problem lies in the learning curve of the game and the teams that already have a solid base. Throw in a lil imbalance in the game (soon to change) and boom, weak clan scene. NS:c is gonna bring about the people who are too impatient to deal with regular ns, and then a handful of them will see how great this game is and look for more. Thats when you'll see a new generation of clans.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anytime you have an advantage that the other team is not aware of YOU ARE CHEATING plain and simple, even if the league you play in allows it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Plain and simple... ROFL. If it was so "plain and simple" do you really think we would be having a discussion about this? Don't present your fanatical views and then pretend it is a one sided issue. Go look up cheating in the dictionary. It says "to violate rules dishonestly". So if it is legal, it is not cheating. If you want to make up your own word whose definition is "anything I don't approve of" then be my guest, but stop trying to warp the meaning of the words we already have.
Also I don't think the clan scene is dying because of cheating, although it may scare a few new clans away. The real problem lies in the learning curve of the game and the teams that already have a solid base. Throw in a lil imbalance in the game (soon to change) and boom, weak clan scene. NS:c is gonna bring about the people who are too impatient to deal with regular ns, and then a handful of them will see how great this game is and look for more. Thats when you'll see a new generation of clans. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think the point is whether scripting to exploit is killing the "clan scene" or not; the point is whether it should be excluded or banned or if some external program should be used to check for it. I'm sure it's obvious by my choice of language what position I take (that is, that WWCL should be used to sniff out things that are exploitive).
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
While using the normal fire button may give you more accuracy, mousewheeling will pull off shots faster and quite possibly kill whatever you're shooting at before it has the chance to get away or reach you. There are times when you have to use accuracy, while there are others when the rapid fire is more useful (i.e. pointblank or very far away at an unsuspecting target).
As far as this whole 'cheating' argument goes, the definition is as sling said - breaking the rules. The term is relative, and is more important in some instances, while not in others. Scripters/bhoppers/exploiters may be 'cheating' in terms of what you believe in morally, but that's not the same for them, it doesn't matter - all that matters is that they can continue to compete without being outlawed.
What you believe in often does not matter to anybody but youself. There are minority/majority type validation of certain beliefs over others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. bhop script != jump script<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seriously? Like how would a bhop script help if it did more than jump? You would have no control over where you were going. Sounds pretty stupid to me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4. With a lil practice you can time your jumps almost as consistently as a script/mwheel. So much so that someone with a script/mwheel has no distinct advantage over you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> For even ground, yes. But things like jumping up/down ramps and over big drops take a LOT more practice, and I personally don't know of anyone who can jump up a steep ramp the way a hopping script can.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5. Pistol scripts hurt more than help. You can click faster with your finger and you have precise control over how many bullets you fire <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually you can't. What prevents you from firing faster is the cap Flayra put on the pistol fire rate. Now that this is fixed it is no longer an exploit. I wouldn't touch pistol scripts back when it was like firing 1 huge shot. You can have control over how many bullets you fire with a script... it is just like an LMG. You can tap it or hold it down. But if you want to think that mashing your finger as fast as you can on your mouse gives your faster and more accurate firing... have fun.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited October 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Sling_Blade+Oct 28 2003, 05:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sling_Blade @ Oct 28 2003, 05:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can have control over how many bullets you fire with a script... it is just like an LMG. You can tap it or hold it down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is it even possible to create a script that does that? As far as I know, it isn't, because a command sequence cannot be interrupted.
All the pistol script does is continually do +attack for as long as you hold down the the button bound to it. So if you let the button up it stops firing. If you want to do like 2 bullets you just tap the button bound to the script. If you want all 10 you hold it down.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited October 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Sling_Blade+Oct 28 2003, 06:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sling_Blade @ Oct 28 2003, 06:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All the pistol script does is continually do +attack for as long as you hold down the the button bound to it. So if you let the button up it stops firing. If you want to do like 2 bullets you just tap the button bound to the script. If you want all 10 you hold it down.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But are you sure such a script is possible? Back when I used to do lots of scripting, I remember finding that I couldn't interrupt command sequences. And I don't see how a pistol script could be written without using long command sequences. But perhaps there's a command I'm unaware of that make them possible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet another example of your attitude. I'm not sure why I bother responding to it, but I will. No one in this thread posted a reply that implied they believed you would cheat. You either noticed that, but chose to ignore it, or you somehow didn't notice it. Either way, I think it's fairly obvious that for some reason you're intent on starting a 'flamewar' in this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Will you give it a rest already? I could care less about what you think of my attitude.
All I do is speak my mind, and usually some **** will come up and start flaming me. In this case, it was that monkey guy...then you, not noticing the sarcasm in my post, added on to it. You two started the flame war not me.
Comments
While I do see CD as a good first step, this cant be the last step. There needs to be some sort of implementation of HL-Guard or VAC or wwcl into NS. This will stop all the cl_rate, ex_interp, and file consistency problems, so long as the ns versions are equivalant to the CS standards.
As for those cheaters who have their own cheats, such as no wallz, or aimbots, they are very easy to detect unless the person using these cheats is very good at hiding them. To detect those who do cheat all you need is a trained eye and your own cheats, as in watching first person demos with wall hack on.
Those of you who thing that ns will die with out some form of cheat prevention, you are correct. I am glad that other respected clans all feel the same as we do, and we surely hope the rest of the community does as well.
For those who are wondering, yes this is my first post here, because this is the first thread I felt worthy of a response.
-ir.Annihilator #teamir gamesnet
The difference is that aimbots are illegal for CAL play whereas scripts are not.
On a personal note, I find scripts a bit like taking creatin as an athlete. The general public may not approve, some players may not approve, but its still going to go on, because its just barely on the good side of the rules.
The thing is.. If something that is found so dishonorable but its on the correct side of the threshold, why not move the threshold back some. Then you run into the problem that maybe the next thing in line is found dishonorable and we need to move the threshold back again.
I personally have no beef with how CAL rules stand and how the community has been acting lately, if for no other reason than the fact that we can't really do anything about it. If we change the rules to make scripts illegal, what will be illegal next?
There is no single answer. We all have our preferences. I think the current rules satisfy as many preferences as possible.
Yeah it does block the most obvious, but its updated a lot to combat the newer cheats.
C-D working with HL-Guard on an ns server is the best prevention we can do atm. I'd rather have Cheating Death on my server than nothing.
Also, its a really small download [like 250k] and doesnt affect hl performance in anyway, peopel that refuse to run it have somethign to hide or are just arguing for the sake of it.
1. Implementing md5 checking through a plugin would be trivial, I'm sure there's one out already. It should be required on every match server as far as I'm concerned.
2. HLGuard and WWCL, while both good ideas, do have their problems. I remember a while ago there was a lot of controversy in the CS community when it was discovered that WWCL did some weird things to player hitboxes. I think the problem has been fixed now, at least on the CS side, but it's worth noting that something similar could happen to NS. Can someone who knows more about the CS scene comment on this?
3. Every time I've played NS on an HLGuard-enabled server, the skulk bite has had serious timing issues. This is a documented issue that has caused many servers to remove HLGuard. Once again, it may have been fixed in the meantime, but I wouldn't know as most servers stopped using it.
I'm not really trying to make a point here, just bringing up some issues that people should look at before going into a frenzy and installing a dozen mods on their servers.
But yes, im also sad about all the clans that have died, and that made the competitive scene a very small one, but now, with all the scripts around, there are only... 2-4 teams that i only like playing against. And also those are teams that i know that don't use scripts, and if they do, it's nothing more then a pistol script. Those clans are: HAM, GoM, TU, damage network (but one of the members just admitted to using a Bhop script, and i rather he do that, then deny it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and xen. The rest of the teams that i've played against or that are in CAL, that i haven't mentioned, and that don't script, it's probobly because i don't play vs your team enough. but nonetheless, thanks for not scripting <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And also HAMBONE, don't drop the competitive scene, i really need a team that has good morals to play against, and that has plenty of skill <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
but yes hopefully, the clan scene doesn't die, i don't feel like getting back into mmorpg's nor CS. And in pre-season for CAL (way back in 1.04) there wasn't really a bunch of teams that used scripts and those were the days, so that's why alot of people chose to not have CD or WWCL because it wasn't needed, now with everyone using scripts (well, a large population) i think that those might need to be put in place with file consistency (it's really needed)
Exactly, people who don't like C-D are full of it, tbh.
It prevents 90% of the hacks out there
It stops some cvars like ex_interp
No lag
No CPU usage (unless you have 16 RAM... then ya, it would hurt)
FFS, it's a free meal, and yet I see people deny it.
And also HAMBONE, don't drop the competitive scene, i really need a team that has good morals to play against, and that has plenty of skill <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone knows who TU is and actually enjoys scrimming with us? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The fact that this thread has to come is rather upsetting. I always thought of a sports competition (be it online or in real life) as putting skill against skill. When it becomes a "do whatever you can to win as long as it's not hacking" sure it's still competition, but it's no longer the gentlemenly sport that it once was. It's just a cut throat bunch of people each trying to get every edge over their opponents they can. Those are people I'd rather not be playing with. You can add C-D, wwcl, or whatever kind of abreviated programs you want, that won't solve the problem. The problem is the people who do whatever it takes to win and aren't interested so much in *playing* a game as winning one.
Agreed
the first steps should be those, not CD, though i will still use CD gladly
I hope HL2 won't be so hack-infested. I hear a 3rd of the source code was stolen too, and that a beta version of it is out somewhere, but that's just a rumor.
Yet another example of your attitude. I'm not sure why I bother responding to it, but I will. No one in this thread posted a reply that implied they believed you would cheat. You either noticed that, but chose to ignore it, or you somehow didn't notice it. Either way, I think it's fairly obvious that for some reason you're intent on starting a 'flamewar' in this thread.
I have spent many hard months working with my clan in the hopes of bringing us up to a high level in CAL, almost a month ago I finally realized that I would have to bring them down in order to bring them up. FFT spent many hard weeks debateing the morals of changing variables in our config files. When the smoke cleared the only config that was tweeked was hud_fastswitch 0 from its preset of 1. And to be honest I feel that even changing this is an unfair advantage, but I pushed for even more tweeking.
Why would I do this? The answer is obvious. Many Top CAL clans at the moment actively use scripts, and/or config changes. It has gotten so bad that some clans use config changes that dont even seem to affect the game at all, in an almost superstious attempt to gain a competitive edge. In talking with many clan members, playtesters and veteans, I have been forced to draw the conclusion that the config armes race is on. In the early days of NS the credo was "May the best team win", but now there is a blemish on the face of Natural Selection's One year anniversary and the credo has changed to "May the best script win".
Some people may accuse me of being parinoid. Others may say I'm resentful of other players skill. Belive what you like. I respect the talents in this community, but I have become so frustrated with this problem that I felt I should speek my true feelings. Every one of us who is tired of this "arms race", I hope you will start speeking up. HAMBONE is correct, this problem can be fixed But it means that many nasty demons will have to be drug out of the closet, and i'm just not sure Clans are prepaired to do that.
I can personally say that I know of four config changes that can give a NS player an unfair advantage, as well as two others that some people claim work but in all my tests I saw no noticable difference. If I know of them then its a fair bet hurdreds of others do as well. Combine these with Scripts and it makes for a seriously nasty advantage.
This is a plague, and it hurts the community. This problem causes people to suspect others, as well as hurl dirty accusations. It spawns distrust and resentment. I hope for the best, but I have begun to prepair for the worst.
I Hate config changes and scripts I belive if you use them you are no better then Jessen or the Mygot gang etc. Anytime you have an advantage that the other team is not aware of YOU ARE CHEATING plain and simple, even if the league you play in allows it. If you belive otherwise you are part of the problem. As I said at the top of this post I lack the eloquence of HAMBONE, and I respect his restraint in airing this topic, but I harbor strong feelings in this matter.
I stopped playing in CAL a few weeks ago, this issue of configs and scripts was the core reason. I was unable to convince my clan to use these modifications, so that we could be competitive with the clans that we play. I am glad that they had the strength to tell me no becouse I lost sight of what was important. I guess you could say I was weak. This pushing to change configs spawned from my frustration. I am frustrated becouse I have played this game for one year now and some how It seems I am still unable to shoot some clan players accurately, even though I am well versed in HL hit boxes/cylinders. Granted I'm not even in the top 100 players of this game, but I'm a good player, and I've had the pleasure of playing with the best during 2.0 playtesting. Some clan players are just <u>too</u> good. I know that even by saying this I will be labeled a NUB by <u>some</u> vets, but I don't care. Becouse many of those same people have changes in there config files and run bhopping/pistol scripts.
This post Is not a FLAME, and I hope people will see that I am purgeing my sins. I hope others will come forward and share their demons, that the truth may finnaly see the light of day. I may sound overly serious to some , but I feel a close bond with the NS community, and I fear that this as well as other issues are starting to tear it apart.
NS is still in its prime, of course, but players should be quite well aware of where their actions are taking the mod. The vast gray area of scripts and file editing might be difficult to detect and not precisely a cheat, but they undoubtedly violate the spirit of the game. Keep abusing the spirit of NS, and it won't survive long.
I don't know what kind of heavy duty Zen skills Flayra uses to deal with exploiters in the NS community, but if I'd worked this long on a game just to see a bunch of kids actively seek its ruin, I'd probably be on my third heart attack by now.
1. bhop script != jump script
2. bhop scripts suck
3. jump scripts allow you to do the same thing as binding mwheeldown or up to "+jump"
4. With a lil practice you can time your jumps <u>almost</u> as consistently as a script/mwheel. So much so that someone with a script/mwheel has no distinct advantage over you.
5. Pistol scripts hurt more than help. You can click faster with your finger and you have precise control over how many bullets you fire
6. Config changes like cl_rate and ex_interp are bad mmmmkay? I agree that steps should be taken to deal with these (maybe in the same way that they locked r_draw?).
Also I don't think the clan scene is dying because of cheating, although it may scare a few new clans away. The real problem lies in the learning curve of the game and the teams that already have a solid base. Throw in a lil imbalance in the game (soon to change) and boom, weak clan scene. NS:c is gonna bring about the people who are too impatient to deal with regular ns, and then a handful of them will see how great this game is and look for more. Thats when you'll see a new generation of clans.
Plain and simple... ROFL. If it was so "plain and simple" do you really think we would be having a discussion about this? Don't present your fanatical views and then pretend it is a one sided issue. Go look up cheating in the dictionary. It says "to violate rules dishonestly". So if it is legal, it is not cheating. If you want to make up your own word whose definition is "anything I don't approve of" then be my guest, but stop trying to warp the meaning of the words we already have.
Also I don't think the clan scene is dying because of cheating, although it may scare a few new clans away. The real problem lies in the learning curve of the game and the teams that already have a solid base. Throw in a lil imbalance in the game (soon to change) and boom, weak clan scene. NS:c is gonna bring about the people who are too impatient to deal with regular ns, and then a handful of them will see how great this game is and look for more. Thats when you'll see a new generation of clans. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think the point is whether scripting to exploit is killing the "clan scene" or not; the point is whether it should be excluded or banned or if some external program should be used to check for it. I'm sure it's obvious by my choice of language what position I take (that is, that WWCL should be used to sniff out things that are exploitive).
As far as this whole 'cheating' argument goes, the definition is as sling said - breaking the rules. The term is relative, and is more important in some instances, while not in others. Scripters/bhoppers/exploiters may be 'cheating' in terms of what you believe in morally, but that's not the same for them, it doesn't matter - all that matters is that they can continue to compete without being outlawed.
What you believe in often does not matter to anybody but youself. There are minority/majority type validation of certain beliefs over others.
Seriously? Like how would a bhop script help if it did more than jump? You would have no control over where you were going. Sounds pretty stupid to me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4. With a lil practice you can time your jumps almost as consistently as a script/mwheel. So much so that someone with a script/mwheel has no distinct advantage over you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For even ground, yes. But things like jumping up/down ramps and over big drops take a LOT more practice, and I personally don't know of anyone who can jump up a steep ramp the way a hopping script can.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5. Pistol scripts hurt more than help. You can click faster with your finger and you have precise control over how many bullets you fire
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually you can't. What prevents you from firing faster is the cap Flayra put on the pistol fire rate. Now that this is fixed it is no longer an exploit. I wouldn't touch pistol scripts back when it was like firing 1 huge shot. You can have control over how many bullets you fire with a script... it is just like an LMG. You can tap it or hold it down. But if you want to think that mashing your finger as fast as you can on your mouse gives your faster and more accurate firing... have fun.
Is it even possible to create a script that does that? As far as I know, it isn't, because a command sequence cannot be interrupted.
they are all the same.
its a EXPLOIT i even asked flayra if that dont stop hes gonna nerf the pistol by making it EVEN slower
But are you sure such a script is possible? Back when I used to do lots of scripting, I remember finding that I couldn't interrupt command sequences. And I don't see how a pistol script could be written without using long command sequences. But perhaps there's a command I'm unaware of that make them possible.
Will you give it a rest already? I could care less about what you think of my attitude.
All I do is speak my mind, and usually some **** will come up and start flaming me. In this case, it was that monkey guy...then you, not noticing the sarcasm in my post, added on to it. You two started the flame war not me.