First, saying that an advantage that is unknown to your oponent is a cheat is overly broad and extremely simplistic. [AAA]'s strat could be superior ( thus an advantage ) over [BBB]'s strat... Or [AAA] could have some players that are extremely skilled but [BBB] is unaware of ( another advantage ). Not necessarily realistic... But the idea that an unknown advantage can be considered a cheat is wrong. Does [BBB] know the sensitivity settings of [AAA]'s team members? Or how about their resolution? Their FPS? Their video card? Their processor? The RAM? The quality of the varying ISPs? Whether arrow keys or WASD are used? Whether a mouse or a trackball is used? The report rate of that mouse or trackball? Whether Ventrilo or in-game is used? Or binds that directly request ammo/health? Or a bind that toggles +use on or off without requiring a key to be held? Or a bind that toggle's in-game voice on or off w/o requiring a key to be held?
I can tell you right now that such an extremist approach will not take hold in competitive NS.
Second, your example is really bad. The rules of chess specifically state what a piece can and cannot do. They do not need to say what a piece cannot do. So moving a rook in the manner that you would move a knight is breaking the rules and unquestionably wrong.
Saying the scripting is wrong and leaving it at that is wrong. Scripting is part of HL. It has been built into the engine purposefully. You cannot acknowledge the validity of this statement while also adhering to the claim that scripting is cheating. The vast majority of the time, scripting is used like it is meant to be used. There are those who will exploit certain characteristics of HL console commands, but saying that scripting is bad because of that is the same as thinking that a cancer victim's body should be destroyed to get rid of the cancer.
Scripting is available to everyone, thus knowing how to use it properly can be a big advantage ( not a cheat ). As I said before, certain scripting actions can, and are, considered cheating... but that does not mean you should condem it all.
Scripting is not cheating. Seeking to gain an unknown advantage is not cheating. Specific kinds of scripts can be considered cheating or exploiting. Specific unknown advantages can be considered cheating or exploiting.
Moot Point every hacker just uses the 10% that works then.
It stops some cvars like ex_interp
I'll concede this point.
No lag
It adds lag but barely any to be an issue.
No CPU usage (unless you have 16 RAM... then ya, it would hurt)
Same as above. The day someone write the a program that runs with no cpu usage I'll be amazed.
FFS, it's a free meal, and yet I see people deny it.
I don't waste my time with it because its an exercise in futility.
1: Hacker creates Cheat.
2: CD updates to block cheat.
And the cycle just repeats itself. To quote a friend of mine that used to run a HL server waaaaaaay back when. "If I wanted a program I had to update every two weeks because its security got broken, I'd install windows."
So overall all it looks like CD REALLY does is block the ex_interp command.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anytime you have an advantage that the other team is not aware of YOU ARE CHEATING plain and simple, even if the league you play in allows it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FFT_Fangs, I don't care how many times you cut and paste that sentence, it still won't make scripts a cheat. For one thing, even by your definition they aren't, as everyone is AWARE of scripts, and are AWARE they are legal, and are AWARE that the clans they are playing uses them. THAT IS WHY THEY USE THEM. I even pasted the pistol script in this thread, so anyone who wants to use it can. Your beef should be with CAL, not sending me nasty PMs entitled "asshat", to which you won't recieve a reply.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->cheat - 3 : to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't believe I am arguing definitions with you, please stop being so obtuse. You may not be aware of this, but there are multiple definitions in the dictionary, as words have different meanings depending on their context. In the context of a rule based game I would assume that the key word "rules" in the definition should clue you in to the right definition. But maybe you prefer the one you can best twist to match the meaning you want. The example you chose specifically gives the example "cheat death". That's number THREE on the definition list, which you chose speficially and then edited out the example given, as it obviously does not fit. The correct definition for this context is, as I have already stated, "to violate rules dishonestly", with the example given of "as at cards or on an examination". I pray I do not need to say anymore on the definition of cheat. Give it a rest.
Your chess analogy is just a mess. That move would be AGAINST the rules in chess, so the analogy is false. What a waste of good internet bandwidth. You keep restating this idea that no one knows about scripts, but if that were true then WTH is this thread doing here? I don't understand why you can't just except that what people are doing with scripts is morally justifiable, and if you don't like scripts you should seek to change the rules, not chastise those simply trying to stay competitive. I can only guess that you get such a kick out of your imagined moral high ground that you really don't care about the issue, you just want someone to feel better than. Well, have fun, but believe me when I say I will enjoy every pistol whip and bunnyhop rape I give you.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
Marq, first, you expressed your opinion as fact. I believe that's what prompted monkey to respond in that way.
Second, you failed to provide any arguments to support your opinion. This thread is not a poll, it is a <i>discussion</i>. An opinion does not belong here unless it is supported by an argument.
And third, that was not sarcasm. Sarcasm n. 1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound. 2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule. 3. The use of sarcasm.
I understand, and always understood, that it was a false statement, but it was not sarcasm. I interpreted it as a bluff.
First of all I've been consistent with all of my points and they have proven to be self-evident.
I'm sorry to say this all orginated from the Veteran playtesting BULL****. It reduced our numbers by ppl who felt they were discriminated against greatly for one, but that wasn't the half of it. You must realize this cheating/scripting/explointing BS reached its zenith while you playtesting "veterans" were off in happyland testing a game for months that ended up being horribly unbalanced and stagnate where the only concern you ever had was wether exoity was a legal playtester or not. During this time we were stuck in 1.04 neverland, and you obviously don't understand what we went through. The only protection we had from the rampant cheaters was a ban.cfg , you can only guess how fun that was. There being so many cheaters any1 with refined skill was instantly banned as the average pubs couldnt take the risk. But somehow we survived in hopes of the bright future of 2.0 which would be supported by VAC (WHICH IT ISNT) and was surely quite fun as all the vets taunted us about how they were having a swell time (WHICH IT WASNT) and it would surely reduce significantly all the cfg exploits (WHICH IT DIDNT). But anyhow we were having a dandy time in 1.04 where marines reigned supreme. Eventually marine dominations GETS A LITTLE BORING DONT YOU THINK?, so to liven up the competitive play we started using bhop scripts to make it a little more fun. AND THATS WHERE IT STARTED. But realistically I have nothing against bhop scripts (but they are the only scripts i use so maybe i have a bias) and i have never found a use for pistol scripts. Another issue is hacking and cfg exploits. Dont trust the community to be legit, trust the code and punishment system. Unfortunately CAL admins not only refused to enforce any type of anti-cheat program but also DIDNT ENFORCE THE USE OF DEMOS AND DIDNT FORCE PPL TO FOLLOW THE RULES And youd think the NS developers would want to help out the situation right? But oh-noes they are wasting their efforts and time making the almighty and ungodly NS:C -which is creating yet another split and division and drop in the community, as i tried to say before but a forum admin locked my thread. Obviously I was right as the issue has been brought up and only 3 vet clans remain together. How about instead of wasting our time on NS:C we work with the source engine and anti-cheat technologies or even maybe work on making NS run elegantly on steam (which is also splitting our community)? But i dont really want to give them too much crap as they game is still pretty good, we just need some enforcement.
Lastly, I believe this thread was started because of the complaint in the rise of clans taking advantage of exploits and cheats out there to increase the skill? Well wth? I havent noticed a damn thing and my biggest complaint is having like NO COMPETITION. Hell, even with their bloody exploits their still afraid to scrim me. And what do I think of that? That all they care about is winning and dont want to lose to us so instead of playing us they practice with their stupid cheats and exploits and commit gaming suicide unfortunately in the end removing themselves and lessening the extent of the ns community. PLAY THE BLOODY GAME AND HAVE FUN THATS WHAT ITS HERE FOR YOU STUPID PUNKS.
I think you're all wrong. Scripts aren't killing the clan scene. They may scare away the occassional true sportsman, but for the most part games have survived comeptitive play in the past even with scripting. But...
This just in: Reason for why clan scene is dying discovered. New teams can't form because the moment they step outside the PUG environment it's a harsh world. You can improve to the point where you're tying mid level teams, but you want to improve by challenging the best, the top 10 and vet clans. This is the worst experience in the world for most new clans. Not because vet clans can take you to school without even employing a serious strategy, it's because they're usually not very nice about it. And by not nice I mean after a twenty-minute game where your team tries its darndest to win you've got six guys in the spawn queue and five marines sitting in your hive just standing there shooting skulks as they spawn one by one. Then they drop an armory and mine the entire floor of your hive, and giggle amongst themselves like little school girls, then they drop a lone siege turret so they can siege you naked hive slooooooowly. This isn't exactly encouraging.
A hard fought loss is one thing and those can inspire you to train harder and scrim more - but when you feel that the only competition you can get are asshats, yeah the new clans are going to break up after a couple of scrims. This isn't true of all the older clans: dn`, some guys from GoM, the HAMS, and the Pandas were all a blast to play with. The Pandas even attempted to get an ns school going to help new clans improve. They're gone though, and situations similar to the one I sketched out above have plagued my team since day one. So as to why the big clans are falling apart and reforming, I might gander that the game is repetitive: needing more maps, strategies, balance, and other variables to keep it amusing for multiple years. But I can definitely tell you why the scene isn't exploding. The old clans are a victim of their success. I find it funny that people sit and wonder why the clan scene is going downhill when you could just ASK a new team who's frustrated with it, and they'll tell you.
I agree Jesus, and thx for saying we dont cause you misery, as we try to get the game movin along because we like to play alot. But I wouldnt lay all of the fault upon the success of top clans. ( Even though I think alot of them get their kicks from your misery only because they fail time and time again at beating us so they take glee in defeating some1 - no dis to HAM except that they dont ever play tho )
More of the blame rests on the CAL league. Things shouldve moved along much more rapidly, and their results and standings should create and foster the desire for new clans to try and join and move up the ranks. But sigh, things such as a week wasted for the "transition to steam" which never happened and such occurred and we had like 7 pre-seasons and resets.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marq, first, you expressed your opinion as fact. I believe that's what prompted monkey to respond in that way.
Second, you failed to provide any arguments to support your opinion. This thread is not a poll, it is a discussion. An opinion does not belong here unless it is supported by an argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never intended this post to be taken as opinion...it was just a complaint/comment. The thread your talking about is this one:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If it was up to me bunnyhopping would be removed entirely. It's just a stupid exploit that takes away too much of the atmosphere in any half-life mod, and I don't give a **** if it takes "skillz" to use this exploit. I would have half a mind to use aimbots on bunnyhoping skulks, and leave my legit aiming skills to the legit players out there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And third, that was not sarcasm. Sarcasm n. 1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound. 2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule. 3. The use of sarcasm.
I understand, and always understood, that it was a false statement, but it was not sarcasm. I interpreted it as a bluff.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sarcasm, bluff, nonfacts, whatever you want to call it man. I'm not into wasting my time with specifics.
No one likes to lose. However, if you wish to excel among competative and veteran clans, you must expect to lose and learn from your mistakes. As to the conduct of the winning clan goes, thats something you must deal with as well. The clans that are so dominate now didn't magically appear that way. They had to work on it, and lose just the same as you did.
A clan should not die simply because of a run of bad luck. I used to get mad when I lost at Monopoly when I was seven or eight, but I got over it eventually.
And to JesusC, please be very careful with your "examples." That scenario was remarkably similar to the scrimmage you just had with ir, only we never dropped a siege cannon. I won't waste time in justifying our actions, but realize that we did to you what we would do to any clan, no matter their skill level. Keep on topic.
It it me...or is this thread turning into a "CAL clans dying" topic?
Another thing I need to bring up(twoheadedchicken sort of brought something like this up, but it was more of a flame)... Everyone must understand that the devs are still working on this game. It isn't finished yet! The Marines are more powerful than the aliens right now, so why would fair clan play even be possible with balance issues?
<!--QuoteBegin--Cole+Oct 28 2003, 11:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cole @ Oct 28 2003, 11:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No one likes to lose. However, if you wish to excel among competative and veteran clans, you must expect to lose and learn from your mistakes. As to the conduct of the winning clan goes, thats something you must deal with as well. The clans that are so dominate now didn't magically appear that way. They had to work on it, and lose just the same as you did.
A clan should not die simply because of a run of bad luck. I used to get mad when I lost at Monopoly when I was seven or eight, but I got over it eventually.
And to JesusC, please be very careful with your "examples." That scenario was remarkably similar to the scrimmage you just had with ir, only we never dropped a siege cannon. I won't waste time in justifying our actions, but realize that we did to you what we would do to any clan, no matter their skill level. Keep on topic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I <3 my IR. I'm referring to two other clans wearing vet badge goldy thingies that I won't name. I was ticked originally when you guys started mining the hive, because I thought that's where it was going, but mining is definitely one of the more effective ways to lock down a game prior to having big resources for HA/JP pushes. What I meant was a team mining the hive in a goofy* manner, having no real practicality other than watching us run wildly into mines as their lone siege cannon made us scamper away from the hive.
I agree though, a new team should expect to lose. When I was 8 I lost at monopoly too till I learned to be a captain of industry like Jay Gould. But if the people who had already knew how to play monopoly threw their money in my face and reminded me about how FRICKIN GREAT they were every five minutes, I'd probably go find another group of people or a different game to play. People who act in that manner shouldn't expect for people to want to play with them. Pretty soon they're left with no one to play with. As opposed to the person who rocks at monopoly and teaches other people the basics of it (or at least gives them a respectable loss each time). Eventually that person has a host of friends to play monopoly with, and while he may not get the satisfaction of getting to throw money in people's faces, he does at least get to have lots of games... and friends... and stuff....
Did I mention I hate analogies?
You guys definitely weren't sitting on lawn chairs in cargo watching fireworks, although the fact that the hive was mined brought back sour memories in peoples minds, but I really can't blame them.
<!--QuoteBegin--Marq+Oct 29 2003, 12:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marq @ Oct 29 2003, 12:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It it me...or is this thread turning into a "CAL clans dying" topic?
It isn't finished yet! The Marines are more powerful than the aliens right now, so why would fair clan play even be possible with balance issues? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This *may* just be a CAL thing right now, but every match afaik that has resulted in a tie has been an alien-alien one. Only in cases of luck, clear domination, or sheer stupidity have marines pulled away with wins. I *think* the aliens are the superior race, I've seen some pretty bad upsets where a weaker team utilizes the aliens' natural advantages to pull ahead over a stronger one to get the 1-1 tie.
This is a hard topic to be sure. Please refrain from categorizing things you don't understand as cheating. Also, here is a marine pistol double fire that a long time member of my clan created. I've actually never used it but if any of you would like to, feel free.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b><u>Marine Pistol-DoubleFire</u></b></span> This is a fairly complex script that gave me a lot of headaches before I got something I was happy with. If you can script the same thing with less code let me know, but from my experience anything simpler would not work perfectly.
What it does: makes you fire two bullets in rapid succession every time you fire your pistol, allowing you to shoot it twice as fast (there's a game limit you can't break though). Also, it doesn't lag at all like the scripts that shoot 5-10 bullets at once do.
The code spans 3 files, you need to add all the stuff to the 3 files listed below:
<b>marine.cfg</b> <!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> alias dev0 "developer 0" alias dev1 "developer 1" alias w "wait"
dev1 echo "executing marine.cfg" dev0
bind MOUSE1 "+attack" // replace MOUSE1 with your attack key throughout the file bind q "+xreload" // use your regular RELOAD key instead of "q" bind z pistoltoggle // allows you to toggle between single/double shot for welder/mines; // if you place mines in double mode you'll just waste the whole pack
bind 1 "-attack; w; slot1; bind MOUSE1 +attack" // also bind this to any key used to select LMG bind 2 slot_two // also bind this to any key used to select Pistol bind 3 "-attack; w; slot3; bind MOUSE1 +attack" // also bind this to any key used to select Knife // YOU CANNOT USE lastinv/invnext/invprev WITH THIS SCRIPT, UNBIND THOSE
-attack // very important!!
alias +xreload "-attack; w; +reload" alias -xreload "-reload"
alias slot_two dblpistol alias dblpistol "-attack; w; slot2; exec doubleshot.cfg" alias sngpistol "-attack; w; slot2; bind MOUSE1 +attack"
alias pistoltoggle pistolbind1 alias pistolbind1 "dev1; echo Welder; dev0; alias slot_two sngpistol; sngpistol; alias pistoltoggle pistolbind2" alias pistolbind2 "dev1; echo 2xPistol; dev0; alias slot_two dblpistol; dblpistol; alias pistoltoggle pistolbind1" <!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
<b>alien.cfg</b> <!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> alias dev0 "developer 0" alias dev1 "developer 1"
dev1 echo "executing alien.cfg" dev0
-attack // very important!!
bind MOUSE1 "+attack" bind 1 "slot1" // also bind this to any other key used to select weapon1 (important!) bind 2 "slot2" // also bind this to any other key used to select weapon2 (important!) bind 3 "slot3" // also bind this to any other key used to select weapon3 (important!) <!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
<b><u>Drawbacks</u>(read before use!)</b> - you cannot switch weapons with lastinv/invnext/invprev; if you do, your weapon will sometimes be stuck firing continuously and you'll die - if you command offen I recommend you don't use this script; if you jump in the comm chair while holding the pistol (you will!) you'll be in a lot of trouble - welder and mines don't work while in doubleshot mode, toggle between modes using the Z key (or bind it to something else)
Other minor issues: - sometimes it fires 3 bullets instead of 2, don't ask me why - if you empty your clip fast and allow it to reload it'll usually fire another bullet after the reload is done - sometimes after you reload the pistol it'll display the reload animation again (but you can fire anyway) - <span style='color:red'>EDIT: when you die while holding your pistol </span> the script might remain in +attack mode and your lmg will be firing when you respawn or your view will change fast between players when in spec. just switch to lmg and it'll retunr to normal.
Why are you posting scripts in here? I think one of the reasons NS is dying is BECAUSE of things like that. NS is losing its 'skill' and 'teamwork' focus, and going more toward 'scripting' and 'bhoping'. Listen, when I started clan play, I learned that pistol scripts, bhop scripts, things like that, were WRONG. Now what do I see? They are EVERYWHERE. I believe a similar sentiment was posted earlier in this same topic, but I have to reiterate. NS isn't about scripts, if you want to fire fast, build up your fingers. If you want to bhop, learn how (I personally think it's as bad as scripting, but that's my opinion). So I may be a conservative, grumpy college kid who's falling behind, but I think NS lost the honor that it once held. There is no glory for killing a skulk with a script. That's like going to a knife fight with a shotgun.
Edit: "Please refrain from categorizing things you don't understand as cheating." How about I do understand it, and STILL think it is wrong? I know why it is done, I know how. I could get my own. But why? You play a clan game to have fun and win, but with your own skill. I do not think your computer should have any impact on victory. PLEASE, understand where I come from on this. There was at one point some integrity to clan play. Clan members were respected, and now they are just who has the best scripts. Where did it go? Drop the competition-at-all-costs, gain some honor and integrity!
I like this thread it is quite informative. The only solution (IMHO) that would be fair to everyone is to collect all the scripts and post them at one site so people have access to them. The thread could state that this is considered a cheat this one isn't.
Better still only post the ones that are legal in the rules. The next step, you have to tell the scripts you are using before the game. Then the teams decide to use or not to use the same. The penalty for not disclosing all the scripts instant loss of game. Maybe even have a symbol/letter or somesuch in the clan tag, the symbols represent whether you use scripts or not.
Imagine boasting in a forum that you beat Ham and then someone says yes but you used scripts they didn't, the win becomes a lesser accomplishment, and teams might start taking pride in developing their skills again.
All players can then choose whether to use them or not, each can be on an equal footing, and if they decide to use skill only they get an added bonus of satisfaction.
I personally don't like using anything other than skill [mine is limited I admit], I like to feel the satisfaction of knowing I won using my limited skill. Other topics I've posted to and said that the game is the important thing were put down as bs because everyone wants to win.
Winning is good but the playing is more important to me as I know I'm not as skilled as others. As I don't play often so my skills improve real slow and so I play to learn and enjoy hoping to get better.
Comments
I can tell you right now that such an extremist approach will not take hold in competitive NS.
Second, your example is really bad. The rules of chess specifically state what a piece can and cannot do. They do not need to say what a piece cannot do. So moving a rook in the manner that you would move a knight is breaking the rules and unquestionably wrong.
Saying the scripting is wrong and leaving it at that is wrong. Scripting is part of HL. It has been built into the engine purposefully. You cannot acknowledge the validity of this statement while also adhering to the claim that scripting is cheating. The vast majority of the time, scripting is used like it is meant to be used. There are those who will exploit certain characteristics of HL console commands, but saying that scripting is bad because of that is the same as thinking that a cancer victim's body should be destroyed to get rid of the cancer.
Scripting is available to everyone, thus knowing how to use it properly can be a big advantage ( not a cheat ). As I said before, certain scripting actions can, and are, considered cheating... but that does not mean you should condem it all.
Scripting is not cheating. Seeking to gain an unknown advantage is not cheating. Specific kinds of scripts can be considered cheating or exploiting. Specific unknown advantages can be considered cheating or exploiting.
Moot Point every hacker just uses the 10% that works then.
It stops some cvars like ex_interp
I'll concede this point.
No lag
It adds lag but barely any to be an issue.
No CPU usage (unless you have 16 RAM... then ya, it would hurt)
Same as above. The day someone write the a program that runs with no cpu usage I'll be amazed.
FFS, it's a free meal, and yet I see people deny it.
I don't waste my time with it because its an exercise in futility.
1: Hacker creates Cheat.
2: CD updates to block cheat.
And the cycle just repeats itself. To quote a friend of mine that used to run a HL server waaaaaaay back when. "If I wanted a program I had to update every two weeks because its security got broken, I'd install windows."
So overall all it looks like CD REALLY does is block the ex_interp command.
FFT_Fangs, I don't care how many times you cut and paste that sentence, it still won't make scripts a cheat. For one thing, even by your definition they aren't, as everyone is AWARE of scripts, and are AWARE they are legal, and are AWARE that the clans they are playing uses them. THAT IS WHY THEY USE THEM. I even pasted the pistol script in this thread, so anyone who wants to use it can. Your beef should be with CAL, not sending me nasty PMs entitled "asshat", to which you won't recieve a reply.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->cheat - 3 : to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't believe I am arguing definitions with you, please stop being so obtuse. You may not be aware of this, but there are multiple definitions in the dictionary, as words have different meanings depending on their context. In the context of a rule based game I would assume that the key word "rules" in the definition should clue you in to the right definition. But maybe you prefer the one you can best twist to match the meaning you want. The example you chose specifically gives the example "cheat death". That's number THREE on the definition list, which you chose speficially and then edited out the example given, as it obviously does not fit. The correct definition for this context is, as I have already stated, "to violate rules dishonestly", with the example given of "as at cards or on an examination". I pray I do not need to say anymore on the definition of cheat. Give it a rest.
Your chess analogy is just a mess. That move would be AGAINST the rules in chess, so the analogy is false. What a waste of good internet bandwidth. You keep restating this idea that no one knows about scripts, but if that were true then WTH is this thread doing here? I don't understand why you can't just except that what people are doing with scripts is morally justifiable, and if you don't like scripts you should seek to change the rules, not chastise those simply trying to stay competitive. I can only guess that you get such a kick out of your imagined moral high ground that you really don't care about the issue, you just want someone to feel better than. Well, have fun, but believe me when I say I will enjoy every pistol whip and bunnyhop rape I give you.
Second, you failed to provide any arguments to support your opinion. This thread is not a poll, it is a <i>discussion</i>. An opinion does not belong here unless it is supported by an argument.
And third, that was not sarcasm.
Sarcasm
n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
3. The use of sarcasm.
I understand, and always understood, that it was a false statement, but it was not sarcasm. I interpreted it as a bluff.
I'm sorry to say this all orginated from the Veteran playtesting BULL****. It reduced our numbers by ppl who felt they were discriminated against greatly for one, but that wasn't the half of it.
You must realize this cheating/scripting/explointing BS reached its zenith while you playtesting "veterans" were off in happyland testing a game for months that ended up being horribly unbalanced and stagnate where the only concern you ever had was wether exoity was a legal playtester or not.
During this time we were stuck in 1.04 neverland, and you obviously don't understand what we went through. The only protection we had from the rampant cheaters was a ban.cfg , you can only guess how fun that was. There being so many cheaters any1 with refined skill was instantly banned as the average pubs couldnt take the risk. But somehow we survived in hopes of the bright future of 2.0 which would be supported by VAC (WHICH IT ISNT) and was surely quite fun as all the vets taunted us about how they were having a swell time (WHICH IT WASNT) and it would surely reduce significantly all the cfg exploits (WHICH IT DIDNT). But anyhow we were having a dandy time in 1.04 where marines reigned supreme. Eventually marine dominations GETS A LITTLE BORING DONT YOU THINK?, so to liven up the competitive play we started using bhop scripts to make it a little more fun. AND THATS WHERE IT STARTED.
But realistically I have nothing against bhop scripts (but they are the only scripts i use so maybe i have a bias) and i have never found a use for pistol scripts.
Another issue is hacking and cfg exploits. Dont trust the community to be legit, trust the code and punishment system. Unfortunately CAL admins not only refused to enforce any type of anti-cheat program but also DIDNT ENFORCE THE USE OF DEMOS AND DIDNT FORCE PPL TO FOLLOW THE RULES
And youd think the NS developers would want to help out the situation right? But oh-noes they are wasting their efforts and time making the almighty and ungodly NS:C -which is creating yet another split and division and drop in the community, as i tried to say before but a forum admin locked my thread. Obviously I was right as the issue has been brought up and only 3 vet clans remain together. How about instead of wasting our time on NS:C we work with the source engine and anti-cheat technologies or even maybe work on making NS run elegantly on steam (which is also splitting our community)? But i dont really want to give them too much crap as they game is still pretty good, we just need some enforcement.
Lastly, I believe this thread was started because of the complaint in the rise of clans taking advantage of exploits and cheats out there to increase the skill? Well wth? I havent noticed a damn thing and my biggest complaint is having like NO COMPETITION. Hell, even with their bloody exploits their still afraid to scrim me. And what do I think of that? That all they care about is winning and dont want to lose to us so instead of playing us they practice with their stupid cheats and exploits and commit gaming suicide unfortunately in the end removing themselves and lessening the extent of the ns community. PLAY THE BLOODY GAME AND HAVE FUN THATS WHAT ITS HERE FOR YOU STUPID PUNKS.
This just in: Reason for why clan scene is dying discovered. New teams can't form because the moment they step outside the PUG environment it's a harsh world. You can improve to the point where you're tying mid level teams, but you want to improve by challenging the best, the top 10 and vet clans. This is the worst experience in the world for most new clans. Not because vet clans can take you to school without even employing a serious strategy, it's because they're usually not very nice about it. And by not nice I mean after a twenty-minute game where your team tries its darndest to win you've got six guys in the spawn queue and five marines sitting in your hive just standing there shooting skulks as they spawn one by one. Then they drop an armory and mine the entire floor of your hive, and giggle amongst themselves like little school girls, then they drop a lone siege turret so they can siege you naked hive slooooooowly. This isn't exactly encouraging.
A hard fought loss is one thing and those can inspire you to train harder and scrim more - but when you feel that the only competition you can get are asshats, yeah the new clans are going to break up after a couple of scrims. This isn't true of all the older clans: dn`, some guys from GoM, the HAMS, and the Pandas were all a blast to play with. The Pandas even attempted to get an ns school going to help new clans improve. They're gone though, and situations similar to the one I sketched out above have plagued my team since day one. So as to why the big clans are falling apart and reforming, I might gander that the game is repetitive: needing more maps, strategies, balance, and other variables to keep it amusing for multiple years. But I can definitely tell you why the scene isn't exploding. The old clans are a victim of their success. I find it funny that people sit and wonder why the clan scene is going downhill when you could just ASK a new team who's frustrated with it, and they'll tell you.
That's ^?'s answer.
More of the blame rests on the CAL league. Things shouldve moved along much more rapidly, and their results and standings should create and foster the desire for new clans to try and join and move up the ranks. But sigh, things such as a week wasted for the "transition to steam" which never happened and such occurred and we had like 7 pre-seasons and resets.
Second, you failed to provide any arguments to support your opinion. This thread is not a poll, it is a discussion. An opinion does not belong here unless it is supported by an argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never intended this post to be taken as opinion...it was just a complaint/comment. The thread your talking about is this one:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If it was up to me bunnyhopping would be removed entirely. It's just a stupid exploit that takes away too much of the atmosphere in any half-life mod, and I don't give a **** if it takes "skillz" to use this exploit. I would have half a mind to use aimbots on bunnyhoping skulks, and leave my legit aiming skills to the legit players out there.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And third, that was not sarcasm.
Sarcasm
n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
3. The use of sarcasm.
I understand, and always understood, that it was a false statement, but it was not sarcasm. I interpreted it as a bluff.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sarcasm, bluff, nonfacts, whatever you want to call it man. I'm not into wasting my time with specifics.
A clan should not die simply because of a run of bad luck. I used to get mad when I lost at Monopoly when I was seven or eight, but I got over it eventually.
And to JesusC, please be very careful with your "examples." That scenario was remarkably similar to the scrimmage you just had with ir, only we never dropped a siege cannon. I won't waste time in justifying our actions, but realize that we did to you what we would do to any clan, no matter their skill level. Keep on topic.
Another thing I need to bring up(twoheadedchicken sort of brought something like this up, but it was more of a flame)... Everyone must understand that the devs are still working on this game. It isn't finished yet! The Marines are more powerful than the aliens right now, so why would fair clan play even be possible with balance issues?
A clan should not die simply because of a run of bad luck. I used to get mad when I lost at Monopoly when I was seven or eight, but I got over it eventually.
And to JesusC, please be very careful with your "examples." That scenario was remarkably similar to the scrimmage you just had with ir, only we never dropped a siege cannon. I won't waste time in justifying our actions, but realize that we did to you what we would do to any clan, no matter their skill level. Keep on topic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I <3 my IR. I'm referring to two other clans wearing vet badge goldy thingies that I won't name. I was ticked originally when you guys started mining the hive, because I thought that's where it was going, but mining is definitely one of the more effective ways to lock down a game prior to having big resources for HA/JP pushes. What I meant was a team mining the hive in a goofy* manner, having no real practicality other than watching us run wildly into mines as their lone siege cannon made us scamper away from the hive.
I agree though, a new team should expect to lose. When I was 8 I lost at monopoly too till I learned to be a captain of industry like Jay Gould. But if the people who had already knew how to play monopoly threw their money in my face and reminded me about how FRICKIN GREAT they were every five minutes, I'd probably go find another group of people or a different game to play. People who act in that manner shouldn't expect for people to want to play with them. Pretty soon they're left with no one to play with. As opposed to the person who rocks at monopoly and teaches other people the basics of it (or at least gives them a respectable loss each time). Eventually that person has a host of friends to play monopoly with, and while he may not get the satisfaction of getting to throw money in people's faces, he does at least get to have lots of games... and friends... and stuff....
Did I mention I hate analogies?
You guys definitely weren't sitting on lawn chairs in cargo watching fireworks, although the fact that the hive was mined brought back sour memories in peoples minds, but I really can't blame them.
*by goofy I mean in fun shapes
It isn't finished yet! The Marines are more powerful than the aliens right now, so why would fair clan play even be possible with balance issues? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This *may* just be a CAL thing right now, but every match afaik that has resulted in a tie has been an alien-alien one. Only in cases of luck, clear domination, or sheer stupidity have marines pulled away with wins. I *think* the aliens are the superior race, I've seen some pretty bad upsets where a weaker team utilizes the aliens' natural advantages to pull ahead over a stronger one to get the 1-1 tie.
Also, here is a marine pistol double fire that a long time member of my clan created. I've actually never used it but if any of you would like to, feel free.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b><u>Marine Pistol-DoubleFire</u></b></span>
This is a fairly complex script that gave me a lot of headaches before I got something I was happy with. If you can script the same thing with less code let me know, but from my experience anything simpler would not work perfectly.
What it does: makes you fire two bullets in rapid succession every time you fire your pistol, allowing you to shoot it twice as fast (there's a game limit you can't break though). Also, it doesn't lag at all like the scripts that shoot 5-10 bullets at once do.
The code spans 3 files, you need to add all the stuff to the 3 files listed below:
<b>marine.cfg</b>
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
alias dev0 "developer 0"
alias dev1 "developer 1"
alias w "wait"
dev1
echo "executing marine.cfg"
dev0
bind MOUSE1 "+attack" // replace MOUSE1 with your attack key throughout the file
bind q "+xreload" // use your regular RELOAD key instead of "q"
bind z pistoltoggle // allows you to toggle between single/double shot for welder/mines;
// if you place mines in double mode you'll just waste the whole pack
bind 1 "-attack; w; slot1; bind MOUSE1 +attack" // also bind this to any key used to select LMG
bind 2 slot_two // also bind this to any key used to select Pistol
bind 3 "-attack; w; slot3; bind MOUSE1 +attack" // also bind this to any key used to select Knife
// YOU CANNOT USE lastinv/invnext/invprev WITH THIS SCRIPT, UNBIND THOSE
-attack // very important!!
alias +xreload "-attack; w; +reload"
alias -xreload "-reload"
alias slot_two dblpistol
alias dblpistol "-attack; w; slot2; exec doubleshot.cfg"
alias sngpistol "-attack; w; slot2; bind MOUSE1 +attack"
alias pistoltoggle pistolbind1
alias pistolbind1 "dev1; echo Welder; dev0; alias slot_two sngpistol; sngpistol; alias pistoltoggle pistolbind2"
alias pistolbind2 "dev1; echo 2xPistol; dev0; alias slot_two dblpistol; dblpistol; alias pistoltoggle pistolbind1"
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
<b>doubleshot.cfg</b>
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
bind MOUSE1 "+attack; wait; -attack; wait; +attack; wait; -attack" //don't alias this, btdt, won't work
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
<b>alien.cfg</b>
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
alias dev0 "developer 0"
alias dev1 "developer 1"
dev1
echo "executing alien.cfg"
dev0
-attack // very important!!
bind MOUSE1 "+attack"
bind 1 "slot1" // also bind this to any other key used to select weapon1 (important!)
bind 2 "slot2" // also bind this to any other key used to select weapon2 (important!)
bind 3 "slot3" // also bind this to any other key used to select weapon3 (important!)
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
<b><u>Drawbacks</u>(read before use!)</b>
- you cannot switch weapons with lastinv/invnext/invprev; if you do, your weapon will sometimes be stuck firing continuously and you'll die
- if you command offen I recommend you don't use this script; if you jump in the comm chair while holding the pistol (you will!) you'll be in a lot of trouble
- welder and mines don't work while in doubleshot mode, toggle between modes using the Z key (or bind it to something else)
Other minor issues:
- sometimes it fires 3 bullets instead of 2, don't ask me why
- if you empty your clip fast and allow it to reload it'll usually fire another bullet after the reload is done
- sometimes after you reload the pistol it'll display the reload animation again (but you can fire anyway)
- <span style='color:red'>EDIT: when you die while holding your pistol </span> the script might remain in +attack mode and your lmg will be firing when you respawn or your view will change fast between players when in spec. just switch to lmg and it'll retunr to normal.
Edit: "Please refrain from categorizing things you don't understand as cheating." How about I do understand it, and STILL think it is wrong? I know why it is done, I know how. I could get my own. But why? You play a clan game to have fun and win, but with your own skill. I do not think your computer should have any impact on victory. PLEASE, understand where I come from on this. There was at one point some integrity to clan play. Clan members were respected, and now they are just who has the best scripts. Where did it go? Drop the competition-at-all-costs, gain some honor and integrity!
I like this thread it is quite informative. The only solution (IMHO) that would be fair to everyone is to collect all the scripts and post them at one site so people have access to them. The thread could state that this is considered a cheat this one isn't.
Better still only post the ones that are legal in the rules. The next step, you have to tell the scripts you are using before the game. Then the teams decide to use or not to use the same. The penalty for not disclosing all the scripts instant loss of game. Maybe even have a symbol/letter or somesuch in the clan tag, the symbols represent whether you use scripts or not.
Imagine boasting in a forum that you beat Ham and then someone says yes but you used scripts they didn't, the win becomes a lesser accomplishment, and teams might start taking pride in developing their skills again.
All players can then choose whether to use them or not, each can be on an equal footing, and if they decide to use skill only they get an added bonus of satisfaction.
I personally don't like using anything other than skill [mine is limited I admit], I like to feel the satisfaction of knowing I won using my limited skill. Other topics I've posted to and said that the game is the important thing were put down as bs because everyone wants to win.
Winning is good but the playing is more important to me as I know I'm not as skilled as others. As I don't play often so my skills improve real slow and so I play to learn and enjoy hoping to get better.
Those serious about discussing the topic, feel free to restart it.