<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Onos still can spam it (as far as I'm aware of) so they time shouldn't really matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Multipule stomps don't build up a longer stun time it just wastes adren. 1 sec is to short of a time to stomp and devour before the marine can move again (thus making devour nearly useless). Stomp and gore is pointless too because you could just gore him in the first place, if you did stomp/gore the marine would be moving again before you got to him so whats the point? The range is the problem, a fixed range would only punish marines who run too close together.
<!--QuoteBegin--V-MAN+Dec 14 2003, 10:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (V-MAN @ Dec 14 2003, 10:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--EL CHUPACABRA+Dec 13 2003, 09:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EL CHUPACABRA @ Dec 13 2003, 09:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In the new 3.0c..........
"O Lowered stomp stun duration from 2 seconds to 1 second"
Why? its perfect now, onos has "just" enough time to stomp and quickly swich to devour. Now using them together is nearly impossible, making devour almost useless for 95% of NS players. This just takes away more alien anti-HA power.
"O Reduced web potency by reducing min/max ensnare times from 4/10 to 2/5"
If so this needs to come back to 2nd hive and BB go to the lerk(so lerk can be a bomber maybe?)
This is just another example of how the aliens are continually made weaker and marines made stronger, <b>This is not the way to get balance!!!</b>
There are soooo many other things that can be done to balance the game other than nerfing aliens and helping the marines!!!!
Like for one making marines slightly more resistant to alien attacks at the higher armor levels, then add new HA and JP "seciallty suits. Then, you can get 4 different marine upgrades, regular HA and JP, and HA/GL and JP/GL. No longer having GL avalabe indvidually makes a Huge difference. Also, with specialty suits come different attributes. Regular HA and JP should come more resistant to bite, leap, slash, gore, and devour. And the HA/GL and JP/Gl should be more resistant to long range attacks. Blalancing this way tweeks the game instead of kicking it around.
Sorry for ranting but NS is a GREAT IDEA and I'm sick of good players leaving because of these reasons, please think more carefully in refining the game and don't just add/cut things without serious consideration first. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tards like you annoy me, you come along after playing NS for 2 seconds and moan about changes that are made saying they are effectivly rubbish while you come up with bone head ideads of your own that you think are great.
First off aliens aren't always the ones to get nerfed in the early versions it was always the marines because they were to powerful.
Second stomp IS LAME as it is at the moment anyone who has see 1 onos spamming stomp all over a HA train will understand what I mean taking the stun time down to 1 second is a welcome change.
Thirdly not allowing people to have a GL unless they have a JP or HA? <==== class idea stupid! Making HA and JP more resistant to attack <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> well, HA is already more resistant to attack because it has more ARMOUR and so is a JP because it increases your manuverability. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not so sure that he's being the tard here. You consider stomp cheap, but without some method of immobilizing HA trains for an appreciable period of time, onos will get butchered in less than a full second.
<!--QuoteBegin--EL CHUPACABRA+Dec 14 2003, 02:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EL CHUPACABRA @ Dec 14 2003, 02:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Onos still can spam it (as far as I'm aware of) so they time shouldn't really matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Multipule stomps don't build up a longer stun time it just wastes adren. 1 sec is to short of a time to stomp and devour before the marine can move again (thus making devour nearly useless). Stomp and gore is pointless too because you could just gore him in the first place, if you did stomp/gore the marine would be moving again before you got to him so whats the point? The range is the problem, a fixed range would only punish marines who run too close together. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Stomp still owns, it's just now it's not nessarlly a guarenteed win, you may need two onos and not one like you would in 2.01 to own an entire HA train.
It still boggles my mind how anyone can complain about something without playing it. I am not passing any judgements on 3.0 untill I play it for a week and I don't think anyone else has the right too either. It's like me saying, damn you're ugly, and I have never seen you.
The thing is, is that Aliens shouldnt need teamwork as much as the marines. So 1 Onos should be effetive against HA trains, you shouldn't need 2, becuase some time you wont get 2 due to their high res cost.
<!--QuoteBegin--Boy who lost his wings+Dec 14 2003, 01:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Boy who lost his wings @ Dec 14 2003, 01:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing is, is that Aliens shouldnt need teamwork as much as the marines. So 1 Onos should be effetive against HA trains, you shouldn't need 2, becuase some time you wont get 2 due to their high res cost. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Shhh people tend to forget the whole 'independent' nature of the alien team. You know, the whole 'chose your own upgrades', and 'chose your own lifeform' and 'manage your own resources'...
Yes, lets say we balance the game such that marines need teamwork to win, and aliens can rambo and win. Perfectly balanced, 50/50 wins for both teams when marines use teamwork-hax and aliens do their thing.
...what happens when aliens actually decides to work together?
<!--QuoteBegin--ZdrozZ+Dec 14 2003, 02:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZdrozZ @ Dec 14 2003, 02:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't forget that the marine armor got nerfed, it's 25/45/65/85 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I love the PT'ers <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I wish someone had told me about this earlier, now I can really 'see' the game's balance coming together.
Doesn't this change make HA even more necessary now since it provides a proportionally larger increase in armour, though? It's not really a problem that HA trains are too strong but that the only way to get rid of them is with an onos - it is literally impossible any other way (fades take about a second of HMG fire, spores don't work, even xenocide does little damage and it's very difficult to get close to a HA train in any case). This makes the game degenerate into one big tech rush since only the top tech has a hope of defeating the other team's top tech, even if skill levels are greatly skewed between teams. However, this system is easier to balance than having more diverse tech on both sides, without such hard counters, so I can see its necessity as a game feature. It's not going to make me like it any more though <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Umbraed Monkey+Dec 14 2003, 11:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Dec 14 2003, 11:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, lets say we balance the game such that marines need teamwork to win, and aliens can rambo and win. Perfectly balanced, 50/50 wins for both teams when marines use teamwork-hax and aliens do their thing.
...what happens when aliens actually decides to work together? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You know I've been wondering about that myself, is it even possible to balance NS in terms of Clan play and Pub play, for they are entirely different creatures. It may be balanced for organized play, but what about pub play? And vice verca...
Reminds me of 1.04 where in pubs aliens usually did alright since marines pretty well needed a lockdown to get anywhere. But in clan play the JP HMG dominated.
IMO, I agree with uranium, simply because the two seconds was just enough to get in and devour one HA in a train, stomp one more to keep them still then run out before you were HMG/GL/Shotgun to death. With the fixed hitboxes on the onos, that will make it even that much more needed to have those two seconds. Even with the upgrade in health/armour. Though the range should be cut down.. it does go to far (yes I play marines and aliens about 40/60)
<!--QuoteBegin--Umbraed Monkey+Dec 14 2003, 02:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Dec 14 2003, 02:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, lets say we balance the game such that marines need teamwork to win, and aliens can rambo and win. Perfectly balanced, 50/50 wins for both teams when marines use teamwork-hax and aliens do their thing.
...what happens when aliens actually decides to work together? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're assuming, of course, that the aliens aren't changed at all. Naturally, they'd be overpowered working together even if designed as solo using the current state, simply because of the silly design choices and support weapons that were put in with teamwork in mind.
As of now, marine teamwork is: Stay with him and shoot things.
Alien teamwork is: Onos runs in to distract and the rest of your team is doing jack so they all happen to be around you and you have 2 lerks umbraing and gorges bilebomb and the skulks rush in, etc.
Everyone always paints a picture of 'OMG All you ahve to do is rush with 3 onos 2 gorge and 3 skulk with 5 lerk and 2 fade exactly and you can win!' except situations like that <b>never ****ing happen</b>. Marine teamwork is SO MUCH EAISER then alien teamwork because they have brainless upgrades, and someone who is solely dedicated to the task.
Alien: I need a heal! (Must now wait for slow, vulnerable gorge to waddle around and find him)
Rine: I need a heal! (Commander hits spacebar and drops a medpack, and moves on)
Alien: I need better armor! (Relies on another player to take time and money to get D Chambers, spend his own money and take time to get the armor upgrade, or wait for someone to go lerk and come help with umbra)
Rine: I need better armor! (Commander take 2 seconds and clicks on Arms Lab to upgrade, same with HA)
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Dec 13 2003, 04:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Dec 13 2003, 04:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Warfare+Dec 13 2003, 02:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Warfare @ Dec 13 2003, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1 second stun does alot <i>for your teammates around you</i>.
Of course, if you're alone, which you shouldn't be, you're in trouble if you stun someone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> My question is: When and why the hell did aliens suddenly turn into the team that requires all the teamwork? 1.04 was marine teamwork alien solo and teamwork. It was always STRESSED that that was EXACTLY how Flayra wanted it.
2.0 Gave all these goofy-**** 'support' abilities to the aliens and screwed up the marines so they both required teamwork and could solo.
Now in 3.0 everything is getting nerfed, marines have grenades and catpacks, aliens are easier to hit and kill now, so it's Marine Solo / Teamwork and aliens NEED teammates all the time.
What a freaking load of ****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Untill you actually play it you can't really comment on it...
Actually I can. Quite easilly. You know that many one-man mod operations can release balanced versions even before playtesting? They do it by keeping a number of factors in their head, playing number games, and working out hypothetical situations. Maybe Flayra can't do that. I don't know, it might be the same as the ability to count cards in a card game. Some people are good, some people can't do it for crap, and some people try it and shoot themselves in their foot.
How do you think people make balanced suggestions in S&I? It isn't blind luck, I can tell you that. They do it the same way I do it: I read the changelog, consider the ramifications of it, think it out, and aply it to already known situations.
Example: Gee we made onos hitbox 5x larger, give it more health, but uh... let's give the marines a catpack which would enable an HMGer to empty his whole clip into the onos before the onos can even leave the room. Let's see 100% of bullets hitting onos... at 2x the firing rate (Whatever it is, I forgot the real number), marine looses just a tiny bit of health, and a 2 res medpack cures it. Hmmm...
Shorten onos stomp. So now Onos are worthless on their own and wont be able to do much anything without more teamwork then the marines will need, or without just some luck. Wait... has to run up, kill, and run away... sounds a lot like the fade "hit and run" to me. Was two second stomp too long? Hardly, gave enough time for the onos to kill a marine, maybe 2. So what's the problem? Stomp too effective? Gee, you MIGHT have tried reducing the ROF so it's less spammy. Onos would stil be able to kill several marines with a good stomp, but wouldnt' be able to kill ALL of them. Wait, that'd be too balanced.
Dangnabit, we aren't going to reduce the effectivness of HA. Just completly ignore the fact that if HA can survive or eliminate the high lifeforms, they'll face nothing but skulks and easilly win, and claim such balance under the 'research time' and 'resource cost' title, and you know what, if you aliens have problems with HA, well, it's your fault for not denying them resources!
But let's nerf the onos because the retarded marines couldn't reduce alien res nodes instead...
EXAMPLE: In my Tribes mod, I put in a seeking missile launcher, a miniature handheld one that would be meant for smacking flag carriers around. Now naturally, because jetpacks are such a big part of this game, it'd be used on everyone, not just flag carriers. So naturally I'd need a counter for it. So what I did was decrease the manuverability of the missile. It would easilly hit people flying AWAY from you, but would have trouble acquiring targets directly in front flying at the firer. Since that didn't seem enough, I reduced its effectiveness against armor and gave it a negative impulse so it'd slow down players, but wouldn't be the optimal weapon to use on vehicles and heavy armors. Tada, instant balance, no playtesting was needed.
Now in NS, the missile would be put in, seek every target, at 100 damage a hit. It'd take 4 versions for the devs to realize there was a problem and they'd reduce manuverability. 2 more versions and instead of reducing armor damage, they'd probably nerf the heavy armor jets so it can't jet as much and would be less of a target. Making the gun 'balanced', but completely nerfing another aspect unnecesarially.
<!--QuoteBegin--Boy who lost his wings+Dec 14 2003, 03:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Boy who lost his wings @ Dec 14 2003, 03:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing is, is that Aliens shouldnt need teamwork as much as the marines. So 1 Onos should be effetive against HA trains, you shouldn't need 2, becuase some time you wont get 2 due to their high res cost. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So one single alien upgrade, that an alien can pick just by not being a good teammate should stop a whole squad of marines?
Just so you know, nearly every match I've been in this build has been a good example of alien domination. Both in normal NS and in combat. I'd guess they will still get a few nerfs. On the other hand, several of the games were close, and the domination was not as severe as in some previous builds. Both NS and combat are somehow reaching toward balance at the same time, which is really amazing.
Yeah, ambushing skulks are much stronger then they ever have been before...
With the fixed hitboxes, you can't just spam bullets and hit them. You actually have to aim at them, which is very difficult to hit skulks scurrying around your feet.
And you would never have know this unless you played 3.0c. So again, don't say what is unfair or not; just make inquiries based on what you know about the beta if you smell some problems.
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Dec 14 2003, 04:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Dec 14 2003, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Boy who lost his wings+Dec 14 2003, 01:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Boy who lost his wings @ Dec 14 2003, 01:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing is, is that Aliens shouldnt need teamwork as much as the marines. So 1 Onos should be effetive against HA trains, you shouldn't need 2, becuase some time you wont get 2 due to their high res cost. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shhh people tend to forget the whole 'independent' nature of the alien team. You know, the whole 'chose your own upgrades', and 'chose your own lifeform' and 'manage your own resources'... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I for one happen to LIKE the teamwork aspects of aliens. Unless you want truly undifferentiated aliens (say, just make them all a "mobile turret" that gets uniform upgrades!), teamwork is necessary (or at least beneficial) to play off others strengths and weaknesses. I think this is a good thing. And I still feel a lot more freedom playing an alien than playing a marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--ZdrozZ+Dec 14 2003, 09:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZdrozZ @ Dec 14 2003, 09:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't forget that the marine armor got nerfed, it's 25/45/65/85... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Im not a PT, but Im pretty sure someone has mentioned that although they have reduced the amount of armor, it has been made more effective. Or something.
OK couldn't stand to read the entire 8 pages of this so if someones said this Sorry for the repeat but for gods sakes man were you even here for the 1.4 to the 2.0 original update? you lost a little stomp yeesch if thats the worst of your difficulties then life ain't half bad.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ajurian+Dec 14 2003, 11:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ajurian @ Dec 14 2003, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--ZdrozZ+Dec 14 2003, 09:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZdrozZ @ Dec 14 2003, 09:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't forget that the marine armor got nerfed, it's 25/45/65/85... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Im not a PT, but Im pretty sure someone has mentioned that although they have reduced the amount of armor, it has been made more effective. Or something. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it now absorbs 70% damage, regardless of the level. Could a playtester confirm/deny this?
Comments
Multipule stomps don't build up a longer stun time it just wastes adren. 1 sec is to short of a time to stomp and devour before the marine can move again (thus making devour nearly useless). Stomp and gore is pointless too because you could just gore him in the first place, if you did stomp/gore the marine would be moving again before you got to him so whats the point? The range is the problem, a fixed range would only punish marines who run too close together.
"O Lowered stomp stun duration from 2 seconds to 1 second"
Why? its perfect now, onos has "just" enough time to stomp and quickly swich to devour. Now using them together is nearly impossible, making devour almost useless for 95% of NS players. This just takes away more alien anti-HA power.
"O Reduced web potency by reducing min/max ensnare times from 4/10 to 2/5"
If so this needs to come back to 2nd hive and BB go to the lerk(so lerk can be a bomber maybe?)
This is just another example of how the aliens are continually made weaker and marines made stronger, <b>This is not the way to get balance!!!</b>
There are soooo many other things that can be done to balance the game other than nerfing aliens and helping the marines!!!!
Like for one making marines slightly more resistant to alien attacks at the higher armor levels, then add new HA and JP "seciallty suits. Then, you can get 4 different marine upgrades, regular HA and JP, and HA/GL and JP/GL. No longer having GL avalabe indvidually makes a Huge difference. Also, with specialty suits come different attributes. Regular HA and JP should come more resistant to bite, leap, slash, gore, and devour. And the HA/GL and JP/Gl should be more resistant to long range attacks. Blalancing this way tweeks the game instead of kicking it around.
Sorry for ranting but NS is a GREAT IDEA and I'm sick of good players leaving because of these reasons, please think more carefully in refining the game and don't just add/cut things without serious consideration first. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tards like you annoy me, you come along after playing NS for 2 seconds and moan about changes that are made saying they are effectivly rubbish while you come up with bone head ideads of your own that you think are great.
First off aliens aren't always the ones to get nerfed in the early versions it was always the marines because they were to powerful.
Second stomp IS LAME as it is at the moment anyone who has see 1 onos spamming stomp all over a HA train will understand what I mean taking the stun time down to 1 second is a welcome change.
Thirdly not allowing people to have a GL unless they have a JP or HA? <==== class idea stupid! Making HA and JP more resistant to attack <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> well, HA is already more resistant to attack because it has more ARMOUR and so is a JP because it increases your manuverability. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not so sure that he's being the tard here. You consider stomp cheap, but without some method of immobilizing HA trains for an appreciable period of time, onos will get butchered in less than a full second.
Multipule stomps don't build up a longer stun time it just wastes adren. 1 sec is to short of a time to stomp and devour before the marine can move again (thus making devour nearly useless). Stomp and gore is pointless too because you could just gore him in the first place, if you did stomp/gore the marine would be moving again before you got to him so whats the point? The range is the problem, a fixed range would only punish marines who run too close together. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stomp still owns, it's just now it's not nessarlly a guarenteed win, you may need two onos and not one like you would in 2.01 to own an entire HA train.
It can't be spammed either, you run out of energy after 4 stomps.
Stomp before was horrible, a second hive attack that could stop an entire team.
Shhh people tend to forget the whole 'independent' nature of the alien team. You know, the whole 'chose your own upgrades', and 'chose your own lifeform' and 'manage your own resources'...
...what happens when aliens actually decides to work together?
I love the PT'ers <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I wish someone had told me about this earlier, now I can really 'see' the game's balance coming together.
Doesn't this change make HA even more necessary now since it provides a proportionally larger increase in armour, though? It's not really a problem that HA trains are too strong but that the only way to get rid of them is with an onos - it is literally impossible any other way (fades take about a second of HMG fire, spores don't work, even xenocide does little damage and it's very difficult to get close to a HA train in any case). This makes the game degenerate into one big tech rush since only the top tech has a hope of defeating the other team's top tech, even if skill levels are greatly skewed between teams. However, this system is easier to balance than having more diverse tech on both sides, without such hard counters, so I can see its necessity as a game feature. It's not going to make me like it any more though <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
...what happens when aliens actually decides to work together? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know I've been wondering about that myself, is it even possible to balance NS in terms of Clan play and Pub play, for they are entirely different creatures.
It may be balanced for organized play, but what about pub play? And vice verca...
Reminds me of 1.04 where in pubs aliens usually did alright since marines pretty well needed a lockdown to get anywhere. But in clan play the JP HMG dominated.
...what happens when aliens actually decides to work together? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're assuming, of course, that the aliens aren't changed at all. Naturally, they'd be overpowered working together even if designed as solo using the current state, simply because of the silly design choices and support weapons that were put in with teamwork in mind.
As of now, marine teamwork is: Stay with him and shoot things.
Alien teamwork is: Onos runs in to distract and the rest of your team is doing jack so they all happen to be around you and you have 2 lerks umbraing and gorges bilebomb and the skulks rush in, etc.
Everyone always paints a picture of 'OMG All you ahve to do is rush with 3 onos 2 gorge and 3 skulk with 5 lerk and 2 fade exactly and you can win!' except situations like that <b>never ****ing happen</b>. Marine teamwork is SO MUCH EAISER then alien teamwork because they have brainless upgrades, and someone who is solely dedicated to the task.
Alien: I need a heal! (Must now wait for slow, vulnerable gorge to waddle around and find him)
Rine: I need a heal! (Commander hits spacebar and drops a medpack, and moves on)
Alien: I need better armor! (Relies on another player to take time and money to get D Chambers, spend his own money and take time to get the armor upgrade, or wait for someone to go lerk and come help with umbra)
Rine: I need better armor! (Commander take 2 seconds and clicks on Arms Lab to upgrade, same with HA)
Of course, if you're alone, which you shouldn't be, you're in trouble if you stun someone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My question is: When and why the hell did aliens suddenly turn into the team that requires all the teamwork? 1.04 was marine teamwork alien solo and teamwork. It was always STRESSED that that was EXACTLY how Flayra wanted it.
2.0 Gave all these goofy-**** 'support' abilities to the aliens and screwed up the marines so they both required teamwork and could solo.
Now in 3.0 everything is getting nerfed, marines have grenades and catpacks, aliens are easier to hit and kill now, so it's Marine Solo / Teamwork and aliens NEED teammates all the time.
What a freaking load of ****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Untill you actually play it you can't really comment on it...
How do you think people make balanced suggestions in S&I? It isn't blind luck, I can tell you that. They do it the same way I do it: I read the changelog, consider the ramifications of it, think it out, and aply it to already known situations.
Example: Gee we made onos hitbox 5x larger, give it more health, but uh... let's give the marines a catpack which would enable an HMGer to empty his whole clip into the onos before the onos can even leave the room. Let's see 100% of bullets hitting onos... at 2x the firing rate (Whatever it is, I forgot the real number), marine looses just a tiny bit of health, and a 2 res medpack cures it. Hmmm...
Shorten onos stomp. So now Onos are worthless on their own and wont be able to do much anything without more teamwork then the marines will need, or without just some luck. Wait... has to run up, kill, and run away... sounds a lot like the fade "hit and run" to me. Was two second stomp too long? Hardly, gave enough time for the onos to kill a marine, maybe 2. So what's the problem? Stomp too effective? Gee, you MIGHT have tried reducing the ROF so it's less spammy. Onos would stil be able to kill several marines with a good stomp, but wouldnt' be able to kill ALL of them. Wait, that'd be too balanced.
Dangnabit, we aren't going to reduce the effectivness of HA. Just completly ignore the fact that if HA can survive or eliminate the high lifeforms, they'll face nothing but skulks and easilly win, and claim such balance under the 'research time' and 'resource cost' title, and you know what, if you aliens have problems with HA, well, it's your fault for not denying them resources!
But let's nerf the onos because the retarded marines couldn't reduce alien res nodes instead...
EXAMPLE: In my Tribes mod, I put in a seeking missile launcher, a miniature handheld one that would be meant for smacking flag carriers around. Now naturally, because jetpacks are such a big part of this game, it'd be used on everyone, not just flag carriers. So naturally I'd need a counter for it. So what I did was decrease the manuverability of the missile. It would easilly hit people flying AWAY from you, but would have trouble acquiring targets directly in front flying at the firer. Since that didn't seem enough, I reduced its effectiveness against armor and gave it a negative impulse so it'd slow down players, but wouldn't be the optimal weapon to use on vehicles and heavy armors. Tada, instant balance, no playtesting was needed.
Now in NS, the missile would be put in, seek every target, at 100 damage a hit. It'd take 4 versions for the devs to realize there was a problem and they'd reduce manuverability. 2 more versions and instead of reducing armor damage, they'd probably nerf the heavy armor jets so it can't jet as much and would be less of a target. Making the gun 'balanced', but completely nerfing another aspect unnecesarially.
So one single alien upgrade, that an alien can pick just by not being a good teammate should stop a whole squad of marines?
Yeah, that's not fun.
With the fixed hitboxes, you can't just spam bullets and hit them. You actually have to aim at them, which is very difficult to hit skulks scurrying around your feet.
And you would never have know this unless you played 3.0c. So again, don't say what is unfair or not; just make inquiries based on what you know about the beta if you smell some problems.
Shhh people tend to forget the whole 'independent' nature of the alien team. You know, the whole 'chose your own upgrades', and 'chose your own lifeform' and 'manage your own resources'... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I for one happen to LIKE the teamwork aspects of aliens. Unless you want truly undifferentiated aliens (say, just make them all a "mobile turret" that gets uniform upgrades!), teamwork is necessary (or at least beneficial) to play off others strengths and weaknesses. I think this is a good thing. And I still feel a lot more freedom playing an alien than playing a marine.
Im not a PT, but Im pretty sure someone has mentioned that although they have reduced the amount of armor, it has been made more effective. Or something.
Im not a PT, but Im pretty sure someone has mentioned that although they have reduced the amount of armor, it has been made more effective. Or something. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it now absorbs 70% damage, regardless of the level. Could a playtester confirm/deny this?