<!--QuoteBegin--JoltGris+Jan 3 2004, 03:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JoltGris @ Jan 3 2004, 03:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Jan 3 2004, 04:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Jan 3 2004, 04:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NS is a game created by 1 guy <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> .... are you stupid?
there is more to a game than just coding you know.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> am I stupid? can anyone say "Flame Bait"?
More to a game than coding? really? i would never have known...
[/sarcasm]
So if it asnt ccreated by flayra, who did create it? Coil?
Natural Selection is Flayra's game. It was his idea, his coding, his organisation...
sure, he didn't make it without help from lots of other people, but he created it on his own.
there is a difference. I am not talking about the software that you d/l from fileplanet, I am talking about the intellectual copyrights. Natural Selection was created by 1 guy, Flayra. It would brought into realisation by Flayra and the rest of the dev team.
Now are you going to nit-pick that statement too, or can I get some sleep tonight?
Knowing the way I play, going fade without three movement chambers is a death trap.
The only reason that balance can't be forced is because of the fact that some people are just plain nasty to other people who don't do things their way.
<!--QuoteBegin--SuperTeflon+Jan 3 2004, 02:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SuperTeflon @ Jan 3 2004, 02:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thinking about another thread where we talked about tactics being 'stuck' because it works, I thought about the biggest example:
D - M - S
Why?
Defense will help you in the beginning the most. Arguably you could get away with movement, but generally:
1) Defence Chambers benefit EVERY LIFEFORM in EVERY WAY. Every upgrade can have a purpose in the game. There's really no justifying NOT taking at least one upgrade. Either by irritating the marines with a constant barrage of dissapearing onii (Which, to a non-turreted base, generally ends up REQUIRING at least one marine to stand around at base defending), soaking up the damage as a fade (Which IMO doesn't soak enough <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->), or becoming the regen tank-o-doom, you can do no wrong with a defence chamber.
2) Movement chambers are more limited. Celerity as a lerk? Adrenaline is MUCH more useful. The upgrades are more limited, only benefitting some lifeforms in some way. Silence as an onos can be fun, but face it, running 20 feet down a corridor only to die by a marine emptying and reloading his clip 12 times isn't funny. It's downright sad.
3) Sensory Chambers. Some swear by them, and some commanders laugh into voice comm as they drop a couple observatories and proceed to neutralize the network. Scent of fear is the only upgrade actually worth something, and even then, it's not THAT great. In the early game, you dont need scent of fear: Marines will be toiling about their base like ants, or heading to res nodes. In maps like mineshaft, or Tanith, sense of fear is useless, because the map is so damned small or linear you can get around or predict movements. (It is, however, very useful in a map like eclipse).
So what does Flayra do to 'fix' the balance? Give sensory a great upgrade. Replace pheremones with a damage-increasnig attack that pretty much nerfs the alien when he faces anything that takes more then 2 bites to kill. (Think about it, reduced damage output over time due to reduced ROF means a non focus skulk can kill a level 3 armor marine faster then a focused one)
So what's this mean? This means that the build order will STILL be D - M - S. Except, like shotgun rushes, every few games will crop up a S first in an 'all or nothing' attack. I've read the testimonials about how focus completely DESTROYS early game marines, but I've not read anything that suggests it's even worth the time gestating to it in late game, which leads me to believe it's totally worthless.
Forcing balance by giving a 'great' upgrade to an otherwise super-specialized, easy to counter, crap-**** chamber isn't the way to do it. Focus will show up in a few early games to lead to wins, then when people realize that, just like old sensory chambers, the only upgrade worth having for high evolutions is SoF, you're back to the same ol' grind of D - M - S.
Hmph. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because every upgrade doesnt benifit every lifeform doesnt mean its a bad chamber. Defense chamberes main purpose (to heal) are easily replaced by a hive and a gorge. So thats regen and the defense chamber's ability completly useless when you can just run to a nearby gorge. Carapace is probably the only upgrade I get from defense because it helps me last longer and I can just heal at a hive (or gorge). Redemption just brings you back to the hive, and hardly anyone uses it. "Dissappearing onos" my arse, all they get is regen.
Movements are a great starting chamber. Silence is perfect for a sneaky skulk, and celerity can put him at speeds to which some people cant shoot him every time he gets near. So what if adrenline is useless until second hive for skulk -- its not like the skulk uses redemption.. A celerity lerk is a good lerk in 3.0. You do spend some time on the ground when you get in a fight with a marine, and celerity puts you at a bit faster running pace than a normal skulk, and makes you harder to hit. You can also use adrenline to let you fly longer/use abilities more often. Onos using adrenline can help if your going to be doing a lot of stomping, eating, and goring. Celerity helps just because it speeds the darn thing up, and silence...really doesnt help at all.
Sensory chambers, with their new focus abilty are a great marine killer for skulks, one shot take down for marines with onos, or anything for that matter. Also, one of the biggest advantages -- cloaking. What jack does not see jack does not shoot. A cloaking onos <i>is</i> effective, no matter what you say. You can ambush heavy trains outside a hallway, or just sit near the rine base and wait for somone to come out. Scent of fear isnt the only upgrade thats usefull, please. And yes, cloaking is negated by obs, but a commander does place an obs in every single friggen hallway of the darn map for peat sakes.
Also, your beginning state with the "Celerity as a lerk? Adrenline is MUCH more useful." Well how about a "Redemption as a skulk? Carapace is MUCH more useful."
And the biggest fact is people have their heads so far up their bootys that they dont realize there are other tatics than just ONE. SMD can work just as well as DMS. MDS can too or MSD. It just depends on how your own team plays, because in 3.0 all the chambers are equal. 2.0 the only thing missing is focus.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Jan 3 2004, 04:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Jan 3 2004, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--JoltGris+Jan 3 2004, 03:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JoltGris @ Jan 3 2004, 03:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Jan 3 2004, 04:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Jan 3 2004, 04:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NS is a game created by 1 guy <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> .... are you stupid?
there is more to a game than just coding you know.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> am I stupid? can anyone say "Flame Bait"?
More to a game than coding? really? i would never have known...
[/sarcasm]
So if it asnt ccreated by flayra, who did create it? Coil?
Natural Selection is Flayra's game. It was his idea, his coding, his organisation...
sure, he didn't make it without help from lots of other people, but he created it on his own.
there is a difference. I am not talking about the software that you d/l from fileplanet, I am talking about the intellectual copyrights. Natural Selection was created by 1 guy, Flayra. It would brought into realisation by Flayra and the rest of the dev team.
Now are you going to nit-pick that statement too, or can I get some sleep tonight? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well the very first buggy NS was created by flayra alone. He then "hired" more people to help him create what you see now. It WAS created by one man (or myth!?) in the beginning, but the bugs got sorted out when there was more than one person.
have you ever tried MSD, it doesn't work at all. I agree with you that D doesn't have to be the first chamber but if it isn't the second then the team is screwed, you need regen for your onos to take back the third hive (I have yet to play a game where the rines dont lock down at least one hive), and that is also the reason that people always want DMS, cause DM onos are base killers, and most people feel you need base killers before the end of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--Swiftspear+Jan 3 2004, 06:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jan 3 2004, 06:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> have you ever tried MSD, it doesn't work at all. I agree with you that D doesn't have to be the first chamber but if it isn't the second then the team is screwed, you need regen for your onos to take back the third hive (I have yet to play a game where the rines dont lock down at least one hive), and that is also the reason that people always want DMS, cause DM onos are base killers, and most people feel you need base killers before the end of the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> it does work, once a noobie dropped that exact combo after alot of flaming and we somehow ended up winning, it turns out we were sneaking up on the rines so they couldn't drop the rts and then by the time the 3rd hive came up we had onos and finished them off.
While I do agree that D chambers are best first, I find all your other points invalid. Perhaps you can't use the chambers correctly, or the gameplay level in the servers you play is too low.
The problem is not in the chambers, its in the players. People have to learn that each chamber forces you to play a unique style, you cant just pick an upgrade and rush marines face-to-face, die, and then complain that the "noob gorge" put down a sensory chamber first.
You want to give me examples? Fine, I'll go to specifics.
Movement chamber: 1) Celerity - Helps Skulks, by making them faster so they get in bite range faster - Helps Gorges, because it allows them to outrun marines (it works if you run as soon as you hear the footsteps, if you can't hear an enemy coming you would die no matter what.) - Currently doesn't help lerks much because they lack bite. However, in 3.0, it helps them greatly, as they can do effective hit and run attacks again. - Helps Fades because a Fade is just slightly faster than a light marine, you often have to blink to chase them... - Helps Onos because they are too damn slow. 2) Adrenaline - Help skulks hit and run attacks (leap in, bite 2, 3, 4 times, leap out, and you still have adrenaline left.) - Helps gorges because they can use health spray more often. - Helps lerks because it allows them to use their costly skills more often. - Helps fades because you can use metabolize and blink more often. - Helps Oni because you can stun marines forever if you time it right. (I did it more than a couple times) 3) Silence - Help skulks because they can sneak behind any marine's back and they won't notice, not until you bite them once - Helps gorges because they can build or run away without attracting any unwanted attention - Helps lerks if you don't want or need to use spores often, usually players don't notice that you are spiking them to death, if they do, they won't know where its coming from unless you are very exposed - Helps fades the same way it help skulks, camp in a vent or a high place, and when marines come nearby, blink out, get on their back, kill him, hide again. - Helps oni just as much as carapace or pheromones =p
Sensory chamber - a sensory chamber on a hive greatly helps against spawn campers. 1) Cloacking The cloacking upgrade NEGATES motion tracking, and as a plus, it makes you invisible when not running or attacking. People that complain that sensory is useless vs observatories are probably camping near a SC and don't research cloacking. (OMGDzzz if I rEsEaRcH cLoAcKiNgZz I wIlL tAkE lOnGeR tO gO OnOs yOu n00b! - is not a valid point) scan costs a lot of energy, comms can't scan forever, and if they build a lot of observatories, they are going to tech very slow...) get cloacking and camp outside marine start where the observatory can't get you. If the comm scans, he will soon be out of energy, and the party begins, you can kill 3 or more marines before needing to heal at a hive... 2) Scent of fear Seeing trough walls should never be underestimated. You can tell how many are there, where they are. If you hear a building sound and scent of fear only shows a single mark, go in and kill that lonely marine. If you didn't know there was just one on the other side of the wall, you would probably ask for help and by then the phase gate would be fully operational.
I won't talk about pheromones because its going to be out on 3.0...
I think this pretty much covers it... you can't just "research an upgrade and jump into the action" with movement or sensory chambers like you can do with a defense chamber. You will have to use stealth. If you can't change your style of play, its not the chambers fault.
I personally never had any problems playing with other chambers, it all depends on how the team behaves.
Yea, I wish the chambers were of equal importance, so I could sit for the first 10 mins of the game listening to all the aliens argue over a chamber. If they were equal, that's what would happen. I do wish in a sense they were, then it would mix gameplay up, because everytime defense isn't our first chamber I say to myself "This is gonna be a long game." However I have had a lot of games with sensory first. It is pretty much win or lose right there. You get a lot of kills, but if you can't capitalize and get another hive fast you lose (for the most part).
D benefits everyone 99% of the time, basically. M benefits only certain classes with certain upgrades [and others less so]. S ... benefits ... those who can use it "effectively" [and others even LESS].
afaisi, (as far as i see it) focus helps alittle, but once people know how to counter it it'll become just as useless as cloak in the middle stage of the game and as useless as silence when the marines have MT.
My favorite early-game upgrades come from the movement and sensory chambers.
-silence: skulk heaven. Skulks can lurk around in the vents and shafts that criss-cross all of the maps and grants them near immortality. If the marines don't notice them, and the skulk can approach from behind, it's all over.
-cloaking: ANYTHING heaven. If you find a marine, stand still to turn the cloaking on, and hold down the shift key as you slowly approach, cloaked and perfectly silent. I do this a lot: they're staring through me right up until their last moments. I do this as a skulk, fade, or onos. And it can save your life as a gorge or a lerk. If you're being chased, turn the corner and wait. It bugs marines when you vanish, and in reality you're slowly walking down the hall, unnoticed.
You know D-M-S is the best route to go, but not always. if I am in a game with a bunch of Res ****, i will put up a Sens or Movement first. because who will be a Onos with only adrenaline? noone. this will motivate some of these res **** to accually put up a second hive and build some D chambers, however, if noone builds the hive (because they are compleate retards) Aliens will get pwned
Reply, in no particular order: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Umbraed monkey</b> Of course, you were here when 2.0 was released to know that what DID come out was not what the playtesters balanced. What they had created was deemed PERFECTLY balanced, but too slow and not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, and have you read threads vets made about 3.0 and why it's taking so damn long? Same situation: It's slow, it sucks, and it's not fun. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>swiftspear</b> Focus won't screw you over when attacking all things that require more than one bite due to the fact that when you bite someone currently, your next bite will miss due to knockback.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only if the marine is airborne, and even then they only occasionally knockback. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>boggle</b> the purpose of Focus is to benefit, in early game, the more experienced players. Instead of going in and biting madly, they can go in and bite a couple of times. The only difference is, those bites matter. It's almost as if the skulks is going "hang on, wait for it... NOW" and biting instead of going "BITE BITE BITE BITE BITE"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't ask what it is or why it's in. What I <b>did</b> say is that it's the stupidest upgrade I've ever heard of, and listed my reasons why. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>more boggle</b> What right does everybody else have to comment on 3.0? Absolutely b****r all! NS is a game created by 1 guy, released to the public for free. He can do what he bloody well likes with it. It's his game for pete's sake. If you don't like it, don't play it. Now maybe if you had had a hand in it's development, you may just be justified in saying "I don't think this is working" but, AFAIK, you are just some guy who d/l this game from fileplanet, found the forums and stated flaming the guy who created it. Sorry, but that's not right. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Christ who rained on your parade? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>more nonsense from boggle</b> Please, the devs don't need any more, especially completely unjustified ones. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you completely freaking dense? Does your brain work? Are you even the same species as me? Let me lay it to you in nice simple words you can understand: Flayra make change. Change go into changelog. We hear change. Smart people (not you) are actually capable of analyzing this data and coming to usually dead-on conclusions. Dumb people (like you) make stupid words, making unfounded flames for no purpose but to brag that you're a tester and I'm not.
Look boggle: We have an attack that does 1 attack a second at 100 damage. With focus it does 200 damage per 2.5 seconds (I don't know what the REAL ROF penalty is but I know it's more then double). This means that in 5 seconds, without focus I do 500 damage and with focus I do 400. For anything that takes more then 200 damage to kill <b>it takes longer to kill, you dense brickhead</b>. I post about this and you reply: <b>FFS YOU FECKING NUB **** YOU YOU STUPID **** U R freaking WRONG FFS OMGOMGOMWTH NUB NUB NOT A VET AHAHHAHA I R BETTER!!!!!1111!11onoeoenon!!!11ONe</b> - Logic, Evidently you lack even basic skills in that regard. (Funny thing is, you say 'OMG U KNOW NOTHING' and I get replies right away that says I'm dead-on.)
Welcome to my ignore list you primate. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Nefilim</b> I really never understood the point of defense chambers first. What good do they do at the start of a match when everyone is a skulk?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are correct, defense has little use for skulks. However, defense CAN help some skulks (redempt skulk, as silly and stupid as it sounds, I have astounding success with). The biggest boon comes when you can't rely on getting a 2nd hive up in a timely manner. Defense will DEFINATELY help early-game fades, or offense chambers, and keeping the hive healthy if the marines make it too close. Sensory helps in none of those regards. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Nefilim</b> I can easily see focus winning games. Focus makes unupgraded marines fall to skulks way too easy. Seriously, two focused skulks often times take out squads of marines in an ambush. With an upgrade like this, taking control of a second hive is simple. That's when you get your other upgrades. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Quoting myself</b> Except, like shotgun rushes, every few games will crop up a S first in an 'all or nothing' attack. I've read the testimonials about how focus completely DESTROYS early game marines, but I've not read anything that suggests it's even worth the time gestating to it in late game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>ha.ze</b> Just because every upgrade doesnt benifit every lifeform doesnt mean its a bad chamber. Defense chamberes main purpose (to heal) are easily replaced by a hive and a gorge. So thats regen and the defense chamber's ability completly useless when you can just run to a nearby gorge. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In a sense, no, sensory isn't always the worst choice. However, many MANY people (generally those who like sensory first) fail to have any foresight whatsoever. If you can't get a hive up soon for whatever reason, your fades are very very limited in what they can do (defense or movement chambers, lacking) and your midgame suffers. If the marines relocate then you're REALLY in trouble and you have a nice long stalemate to look forward to. Then they're shocked when they lose.<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>ha.ze</b> Also, your beginning state with the "Celerity as a lerk? Adrenline is MUCH more useful." Well how about a "Redemption as a skulk? Carapace is MUCH more useful."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->No comment. Statement is so void of logic there's no way I can reply that'd make you realize it. Why don't you start justifying early game cloak onos based on your experiences with pheremones skulk? Yeah, that's how stupid that statement is. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>more ha.ze</b> And yes, cloaking is negated by obs, but a commander does place an obs in every single friggen hallway of the darn map for peat sakes.
And the biggest fact is people have their heads so far up their bootys that they dont realize there are other tatics than just ONE. SMD can work just as well as DMS. MDS can too or MSD. It just depends on how your own team plays, because in 3.0 all the chambers are equal. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First, cloaking is negated by: Any attempts to get around the map in a timely manner, it's negated by the fact that sometimes people don't like spending 700 res on a map-wide network, it's negated by marines that can actually SEE (and cloaked aliens aren't very hard to see, especially if you crank gamma), and it's negated by <b>free</b> sensor scans and observatories. I really don't care if I 'ambush' an HA train (Whatever that means... it's not like I'm going to do any more damage to an HA when I 'ambush' him then I would if I just leaped out of a vent), because, wow, a half-second burst of an HMG and I'm dead. Unless your ambush is your ENTIRE TEAM, you only get one shot to pull off the ambush, and your chance of killing the HAs are slim.
Secondly, I'm not going to try an exotic chamber because I like it and I'm going to GUESS how my team will play. Some people are completely badass and can win the game as a fade alone. Some people like you think skulks are the only way to go. That's stupid and self centered. Custard thought his regiment of men could take on 2,000 Indian warriors. Custard didn't survive now did he?
(On one more note: Silence is another 'specialized' upgrade. Silence is 210% totally useless with motion tracking, and once you start attacking, if the marines have any brains whatsoever they'll see you on the minimap, or just turn around and shoot you.
<!--QuoteBegin--Last.+Jan 3 2004, 09:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Last. @ Jan 3 2004, 09:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Great... teflon comes back from his ban and procedes to continue his crusade of I'm right and you're wrong... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And who are you? Do I know you? No, didn't think so. So stop spamming.
EDIT: Funny, no one named Teflon even under 'banned' on the members list...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No comment. Statement is so void of logic there's no way I can reply that'd make you realize it. Why don't you start justifying early game cloak onos based on your experiences with pheremones skulk? Yeah, that's how stupid that statement is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Your</b> statement is the only one void of logic. Youre basing a whole chamber one how one upgrade is "not useful" (in your eyes) to one class. Just becaue it isnt all of a sudden the chamber isnt as flexable as DC. I made my own statement just like yours to show that DC is just as flexable as MC.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First, cloaking is negated by: Any attempts to get around the map in a timely manner, it's negated by the fact that sometimes people don't like spending 700 res on a map-wide network, it's negated by marines that can actually SEE (and cloaked aliens aren't very hard to see, especially if you crank gamma), and it's negated by free sensor scans and observatories. I really don't care if I 'ambush' an HA train (Whatever that means... it's not like I'm going to do any more damage to an HA when I 'ambush' him then I would if I just leaped out of a vent), because, wow, a half-second burst of an HMG and I'm dead. Unless your ambush is your ENTIRE TEAM, you only get one shot to pull off the ambush, and your chance of killing the HAs are slim.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Negated by an attempt to get around the map in a timely manner? Right. You dont need to walk <b>everywhere</b>, just while your around the enemy. Negated by marines seeing you, thats true. But you dont need to move, and thats really only when they see you -- if you stay completly still and let them come to you, you are virtually invisible. Negated by scans as well, but what commander knows every location to scan for every cloaked enemy near his every marine? I wouldnt know.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>(From above.. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)</b> I really don't care if I 'ambush' an HA train (Whatever that means... it's not like I'm going to do any more damage to an HA when I 'ambush' him then I would if I just leaped out of a vent), because, wow, a half-second burst of an HMG and I'm dead. Unless your ambush is your ENTIRE TEAM, you only get one shot to pull off the ambush, and your chance of killing the HAs are slim.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if you actually <b>read</b>my post, you would know that I was talking about cloaking for onos. If you have a cloaked onos to ambush a heavy train it works quite well. You just need to keep them stomped (heres where adrenline comes in, hence the order SMD) until teammates arrive. If not, then you'll have to eat one, stomp again, gore, stomp, you know..
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, I'm not going to try an exotic chamber because I like it and I'm going to GUESS how my team will play. Some people are completely badass and can win the game as a fade alone. Some people like you think skulks are the only way to go. That's stupid and self centered. Custard thought his regiment of men could take on 2,000 Indian warriors. Custard didn't survive now did he?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where did I say I thought skulks were the only way to go? Dont start putting words in my mouth like above. And what the hell does Custard have to do with this?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In a sense, no, sensory isn't always the worst choice. However, many MANY people (generally those who like sensory first) fail to have any foresight whatsoever. If you can't get a hive up soon for whatever reason, your fades are very very limited in what they can do (defense or movement chambers, lacking) and your midgame suffers. If the marines relocate then you're REALLY in trouble and you have a nice long stalemate to look forward to. Then they're shocked when they lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades are limited to what they do. You have to play different, ambush with cloaking, watch and strike when the time is right with SoF, or do hit and run attacks with focus (in 3.0). And how is relocating effecting sensory?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On one more note: Silence is another 'specialized' upgrade. Silence is 210% totally useless with motion tracking, and once you start attacking, if the marines have any brains whatsoever they'll see you on the minimap, or just turn around and shoot you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines dont get motion tracking in the very beginning of the game (sometimes they dont get it at all -- its an expensive upgrade) and dont see you with silence. Carapace is another 'specialized' upgrade, because marines can kill you faster and carapace has no effect, its just like before. Everything has a counter.
I do believe your attitude toward boggle was extreamly unnessary. We're not trying to turn this into a flame war. If somone flames, please, just ignore them and move on, because there is no benefit to flaming them back.
Everything you've said pretty much applies to focus: It works great... in the <b>early game</b>. Which is where the problem is.
And sensory just isn't for the fade. Lacking a defense chamber (Fades have very low capacity to soak damage) or movement chamber (Fades are stamina SUVs and rediculously slow), you then have to rely on:
Cloaking: Standing around in a weaker-then-you-could-be state so you can ambush a marine. However, blink is very fast and for all purposes, blinking across the map to a marine is just as much an ambush as standing there cloaked. Furthermore, fades are big. And big means you're very easy to see while cloaked. Scent of Fear? Again, with blink it's not really needed unless you're almost dead (And with a defense chamber...). If you want to know what's coming just blink in and blink away in a split second.
(BTW: You kept saying 'Celerity for skulk -= pwn! Cloak for skulk you can win! Silence with skulk on the ceiling!' Since every 'argument' you have is based on skulk, I figure you don't know that other lifeforms do exist.)
Gotta agree with Forlorn here. Nothing I've read in the changelogs, heard from cms/vets/pts, or read in these forums has convinced me that sens first in 3.0 is going to be any more viable even with focus. And the debate here has convinced me even more that DMS will be standard in 3.0 just as it was in 1.0x and 2.0x.
I think the only way that dc's will cease to be a defacto starting upgrade chamber is if the armor for the skulk is upped to what lvl 3 cara gives it to begin with. Cara is the only reason for having defence in the early game. But then i guess no one here (even alien fanatics such as myself) see that as a viable solution. At that point, skulks become even harder to kill when they do manage to get Cara. On the other hand, it would actually give 'rines a reason to do early weapons upgrades instead of armor. Of course I believe the balance would still favor the skulk too much.
MY SOLUTION: Allow all upgrades at hive 1 (simultaneously), but only allow lvl 1 upgrades to be in effect. Lvl 2 comes at 2nd hive, and lvl 3 at 3rd hive. Then increase the power of each lvl of upgrades just slightly to even out the balance of early, mid, and late games. I'm sure there would need to be tweaks to power on the 'rines side as well, but I admit that my disdain for playing as a 'rine keeps me from intimately knowing how to do this most effectively.
I find it sad that nobody here has realised that everyone will always have their own opinions about which chamber is more useful as which alien. Any serious player will eventually develop their own tactics to use, based on their individual strong points.
Any combination and order of chambers can help the alien team win a game, but each combination requires the aliens to play the game differently, and it has been shown numerous times in this thread, that people generally don't want to have to think about anyone else's tactics, they just want to <b><i>get on with the game</i></b>. My opinion is that those sort of people should <b>go and play CS or TFC instead </b>(although some may argue that these games rely on tactics as well, playing without a game plan seems to be acceptable to most TFC players).
NS is a great game. However, it is <i>also</i> a game that requires more logical and strategic thinking than most others. There are many ways to play it, as both aliens and marines. However, one can not experience them all without adapting to other situations (eg. combinations of chambers) and making the best of it.
teflon: as i recall, you were temporarily suspended for flaming in a thread about the veteran program.
i hope the mods lock this and any future threads you start, from what I've seen they're nothing but a pitiful attempt to capture attention and prove that you're right.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scent of fear is the only upgrade actually worth something, and even then, it's not THAT great.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are so wrong,cloacking owns all...but every 1 is like"ehh,we want dc 1rst"and if u drop a sens in sted, they'll be like"who's the **** moron who droped sens 1rst?what a freaking noob."
i think that sens at the start is not that bad...Case Closed =P
<!--QuoteBegin--Arcadius+Jan 3 2004, 10:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Arcadius @ Jan 3 2004, 10:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Gotta agree with Forlorn here. Nothing I've read in the changelogs, heard from cms/vets/pts, or read in these forums has convinced me that sens first in 3.0 is going to be any more viable even with focus. And the debate here has convinced me even more that DMS will be standard in 3.0 just as it was in 1.0x and 2.0x. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I was talking about 2.0. SC's can't be used against good marine teams.
However, in 3.0, the power of focus is so great I'm not gonna say if it's possible to win with them as first hive chamber.
Also, I think what may become a popular strategy is D-S-M, because at the 2 hive stage a D/S fade is devestating is done properly, focus fades kill extreamlly well. I mean, you just run in, hit them ONCE, run out.
You heal, run in again, hit them just ONCE, and if you hit the same marine, he's dead no matter what, no amount of medspam can save you from focus.
Funny how it comes back to the fade, but meh.
Of course D then M wil always be standard fare, however with the fade at 60 res my personal favorite is M first (celerity/silence skulks dominate, adren gorges for teh win) followed by D chambers at 2 hives to support the bigger lifeforms.
This is only for 3.0, and I've yet to seen effective solid strategies with sensory first, but I'm going to reserve final judgement from now.
Although I do agree with you a little, the sensory chambers future still looks rather bleak.
<!--QuoteBegin--SuperTeflon+Jan 4 2004, 03:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SuperTeflon @ Jan 4 2004, 03:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>boggle</b> the purpose of Focus is to benefit, in early game, the more experienced players. Instead of going in and biting madly, they can go in and bite a couple of times. The only difference is, those bites matter. It's almost as if the skulks is going "hang on, wait for it... NOW" and biting instead of going "BITE BITE BITE BITE BITE"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't ask what it is or why it's in. What I <b>did</b> say is that it's the stupidest upgrade I've ever heard of, and listed my reasons why. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I was just pointing out why it wasnt the stupidest upgrade - relating directly to your point as to why it was. Have you even tried focus? How can you comment on something you have only heard about, and never tried? surely first-hand knowledge gained from playing 3.0 (mine) is much more reliable that people just looking at a changlelog and saying "OMG that is teh sux."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>more boggle</b> What right does everybody else have to comment on 3.0? Absolutely b****r all! NS is a game created by 1 guy, released to the public for free. He can do what he bloody well likes with it. It's his game for pete's sake. If you don't like it, don't play it. Now maybe if you had had a hand in it's development, you may just be justified in saying "I don't think this is working" but, AFAIK, you are just some guy who d/l this game from fileplanet, found the forums and stated flaming the guy who created it. Sorry, but that's not right. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Christ who rained on your parade?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everybody who comes along without even playing 3.0 and saying "OMG this is teh sux." Yes, you rained on my parade.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>more nonsense from boggle</b> Please, the devs don't need any more, especially completely unjustified ones. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you completely freaking dense? Does your brain work? Are you even the same species as me? Let me lay it to you in nice simple words you can understand: Flayra make change. Change go into changelog. We hear change. Smart people (not you) are actually capable of analyzing this data and coming to usually dead-on conclusions. Dumb people (like you) make stupid words, making unfounded flames for no purpose but to brag that you're a tester and I'm not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me put this in layman's terms too:
Flayra think of a game, Flayra and a bunch of mates make game. Flayra think of change, flayra put change in changelog. Well informed people (like myself) try out new change and see that it works really well. Not so well informed people (you) read changlelog, think they understand and say "OMG that is teh sux." I do not brag about me bing a tester. I simply point out that I and all the other testers have a much better idea as to if the new upgrades are a good idea. It would be foolish not to listen to the testers. We have much more experience as we have actually played the game. If you want to know what Mt Everest is like, you wouldn't ask some bloke on the street who only knows how it is spelt, you would ask people who have actually climbed it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look boggle: We have an attack that does 1 attack a second at 100 damage. With focus it does 200 damage per 2.5 seconds (I don't know what the REAL ROF penalty is but I know it's more then double). This means that in 5 seconds, without focus I do 500 damage and with focus I do 400. For anything that takes more then 200 damage to kill <b>it takes longer to kill, you dense brickhead</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, please try to be slightly less insulting. Is is asking for a one way ticket to bansville. However, you do make some valid points, so I will try to respond to them.
vanilla marines fall with one bite to focus. that is where it's power lies. an early skulk with focus can easily get enough RFK to get a more powerful level such as fade or even onos.
After the marines have got lvl 1 armour, they no longer die in one bite, they die in two. This means that a focus skulk would take longer to kill a lvl 1 armour marine than a non focus skulk. by that time, however, focus has served its worth. nor you get cloaking or SOF and ambush them. you have got enough res to put up the 2nd hive or go fade and win the game
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I post about this and you reply: <b>FFS YOU FECKING NUB **** YOU YOU STUPID **** U R freaking WRONG FFS OMGOMGOMWTH NUB NUB NOT A VET AHAHHAHA I R BETTER!!!!!1111!11onoeoenon!!!11ONe</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please, dont put words into my mouth. I never said anything of the sort.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - Logic, Evidently you lack even basic skills in that regard. (Funny thing is, you say 'OMG U KNOW NOTHING' and I get replies right away that says I'm dead-on.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems to me that you are the one lacking in logic. You claim to know more about the game that you have only read about, while i have played it. and there you go aagain putting words into my mouth
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Welcome to my ignore list you primate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An insult to end all insults... "You primate." good grief. Some people evidently cannot grasp basic biology.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) Defence Chambers benefit EVERY LIFEFORM in EVERY WAY. Every upgrade can have a purpose in the game. There's really no justifying NOT taking at least one upgrade. Either by irritating the marines with a constant barrage of dissapearing onii (Which, to a non-turreted base, generally ends up REQUIRING at least one marine to stand around at base defending), soaking up the damage as a fade (Which IMO doesn't soak enough ), or becoming the regen tank-o-doom, you can do no wrong with a defence chamber.
2) Movement chambers are more limited. Celerity as a lerk? Adrenaline is MUCH more useful. The upgrades are more limited, only benefitting some lifeforms in some way. Silence as an onos can be fun, but face it, running 20 feet down a corridor only to die by a marine emptying and reloading his clip 12 times isn't funny. It's downright sad.
3) Sensory Chambers. Some swear by them, and some commanders laugh into voice comm as they drop a couple observatories and proceed to neutralize the network. Scent of fear is the only upgrade actually worth something, and even then, it's not THAT great. In the early game, you dont need scent of fear: Marines will be toiling about their base like ants, or heading to res nodes. In maps like mineshaft, or Tanith, sense of fear is useless, because the map is so damned small or linear you can get around or predict movements. (It is, however, very useful in a map like eclipse).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Rege =>> Any class .....Cara =>> Skulk/Lerk .....Rede =>> Fade/Gorge/Onos
2) Cele =>> Any class can benefit from this .....Adre =>> Gorge/Lerk/Fade .....Sile =>> Again, any class
3) Scen =>> Any class .....Cloak =>> Again, any class
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Defence Chambers benefit EVERY LIFEFORM in EVERY WAY<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And others do not? IMO, people who always *demand* DC to be the first chamber do not know how to use other chambers properly, or other life-forms. Still, at the moment, SC lacks that third option (laughted out loud when I first noticed those small *funny* looking gas clouds coming from a marine in onos' stomach <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> -until I realized what they really were) and isn't as good choise for a first chamber because of that. So, until 3.0 comes out, it really should be either D/M + S or D + M/S <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
But that is just my opinion, so don't mind me; continue bashing for the glory of the one and only, godlike DC. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Can we have alot less flaming and general spamming? Its just distracting from the real issue, if you have a point make it, don't quote people to bash them over the head. Everything has a counter, every chamber can be countered by the marines. This is as it should be, the aliens should not get a free ticket. I think the real problem is commitment. Once the aliens are going down one route, thats it. If the marines setup to counter the aliens chosen route they will win. Marines can adapt to alien strategy as their steuctures are easily replaced. Aliens cannot adapt, once they have a chamber thats it. The only thing needed to inject a new dynamisim to ns is to allow the aliens to change their game partway through. To have any effect however these changes would have to be without penalty and possible in split seconds, perhaps even during combat. If free and rapid change wasn't possible then aliens would stick with one chamber first anyway. How about gorges providing chamber cover of their choice for other lifeforms? This way they could setup ambushes and change to healing in thick fights, or movement for other attacks. Ie the source of upgrade powers is the moblie gorge itself. I could see this working really well with sc gorg and skulk squad creeping in then the gorg changeing to dc for the fight, or movement for fast attackers.
I think what makes DC so valuable at first is regeneration. Don't get me wrong, redemption and carapace have their place, but they aren't as reliable/versatile. An onos without regeneration or a healing station on the map has to make his way back to the hive every time he takes damage. Not exactly efficient.
I always liked the idea of kharaa RTs being able to heal aliens that was proposed before 2.0. That way, higher lifeforms would have an easier time without DCs. Until then, DCs are probably the "safe" option.
Comments
.... are you stupid?
there is more to a game than just coding you know.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
am I stupid? can anyone say "Flame Bait"?
More to a game than coding? really? i would never have known...
[/sarcasm]
So if it asnt ccreated by flayra, who did create it? Coil?
Natural Selection is Flayra's game. It was his idea, his coding, his organisation...
sure, he didn't make it without help from lots of other people, but he created it on his own.
there is a difference. I am not talking about the software that you d/l from fileplanet, I am talking about the intellectual copyrights. Natural Selection was created by 1 guy, Flayra. It would brought into realisation by Flayra and the rest of the dev team.
Now are you going to nit-pick that statement too, or can I get some sleep tonight?
The only reason that balance can't be forced is because of the fact that some people are just plain nasty to other people who don't do things their way.
D - M - S
Why?
Defense will help you in the beginning the most. Arguably you could get away with movement, but generally:
1) Defence Chambers benefit EVERY LIFEFORM in EVERY WAY. Every upgrade can have a purpose in the game. There's really no justifying NOT taking at least one upgrade. Either by irritating the marines with a constant barrage of dissapearing onii (Which, to a non-turreted base, generally ends up REQUIRING at least one marine to stand around at base defending), soaking up the damage as a fade (Which IMO doesn't soak enough <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->), or becoming the regen tank-o-doom, you can do no wrong with a defence chamber.
2) Movement chambers are more limited. Celerity as a lerk? Adrenaline is MUCH more useful. The upgrades are more limited, only benefitting some lifeforms in some way. Silence as an onos can be fun, but face it, running 20 feet down a corridor only to die by a marine emptying and reloading his clip 12 times isn't funny. It's downright sad.
3) Sensory Chambers. Some swear by them, and some commanders laugh into voice comm as they drop a couple observatories and proceed to neutralize the network. Scent of fear is the only upgrade actually worth something, and even then, it's not THAT great. In the early game, you dont need scent of fear: Marines will be toiling about their base like ants, or heading to res nodes. In maps like mineshaft, or Tanith, sense of fear is useless, because the map is so damned small or linear you can get around or predict movements. (It is, however, very useful in a map like eclipse).
So what does Flayra do to 'fix' the balance? Give sensory a great upgrade. Replace pheremones with a damage-increasnig attack that pretty much nerfs the alien when he faces anything that takes more then 2 bites to kill. (Think about it, reduced damage output over time due to reduced ROF means a non focus skulk can kill a level 3 armor marine faster then a focused one)
So what's this mean? This means that the build order will STILL be D - M - S. Except, like shotgun rushes, every few games will crop up a S first in an 'all or nothing' attack. I've read the testimonials about how focus completely DESTROYS early game marines, but I've not read anything that suggests it's even worth the time gestating to it in late game, which leads me to believe it's totally worthless.
Forcing balance by giving a 'great' upgrade to an otherwise super-specialized, easy to counter, crap-**** chamber isn't the way to do it. Focus will show up in a few early games to lead to wins, then when people realize that, just like old sensory chambers, the only upgrade worth having for high evolutions is SoF, you're back to the same ol' grind of D - M - S.
Hmph. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because every upgrade doesnt benifit every lifeform doesnt mean its a bad chamber. Defense chamberes main purpose (to heal) are easily replaced by a hive and a gorge. So thats regen and the defense chamber's ability completly useless when you can just run to a nearby gorge. Carapace is probably the only upgrade I get from defense because it helps me last longer and I can just heal at a hive (or gorge). Redemption just brings you back to the hive, and hardly anyone uses it. "Dissappearing onos" my arse, all they get is regen.
Movements are a great starting chamber. Silence is perfect for a sneaky skulk, and celerity can put him at speeds to which some people cant shoot him every time he gets near. So what if adrenline is useless until second hive for skulk -- its not like the skulk uses redemption..
A celerity lerk is a good lerk in 3.0. You do spend some time on the ground when you get in a fight with a marine, and celerity puts you at a bit faster running pace than a normal skulk, and makes you harder to hit. You can also use adrenline to let you fly longer/use abilities more often.
Onos using adrenline can help if your going to be doing a lot of stomping, eating, and goring. Celerity helps just because it speeds the darn thing up, and silence...really doesnt help at all.
Sensory chambers, with their new focus abilty are a great marine killer for skulks, one shot take down for marines with onos, or anything for that matter. Also, one of the biggest advantages -- cloaking. What jack does not see jack does not shoot. A cloaking onos <i>is</i> effective, no matter what you say. You can ambush heavy trains outside a hallway, or just sit near the rine base and wait for somone to come out. Scent of fear isnt the only upgrade thats usefull, please. And yes, cloaking is negated by obs, but a commander does place an obs in every single friggen hallway of the darn map for peat sakes.
Also, your beginning state with the "Celerity as a lerk? Adrenline is MUCH more useful." Well how about a "Redemption as a skulk? Carapace is MUCH more useful."
And the biggest fact is people have their heads so far up their bootys that they dont realize there are other tatics than just ONE. SMD can work just as well as DMS. MDS can too or MSD. It just depends on how your own team plays, because in 3.0 all the chambers are equal. 2.0 the only thing missing is focus.
.... are you stupid?
there is more to a game than just coding you know.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
am I stupid? can anyone say "Flame Bait"?
More to a game than coding? really? i would never have known...
[/sarcasm]
So if it asnt ccreated by flayra, who did create it? Coil?
Natural Selection is Flayra's game. It was his idea, his coding, his organisation...
sure, he didn't make it without help from lots of other people, but he created it on his own.
there is a difference. I am not talking about the software that you d/l from fileplanet, I am talking about the intellectual copyrights. Natural Selection was created by 1 guy, Flayra. It would brought into realisation by Flayra and the rest of the dev team.
Now are you going to nit-pick that statement too, or can I get some sleep tonight? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the very first buggy NS was created by flayra alone. He then "hired" more people to help him create what you see now. It WAS created by one man (or myth!?) in the beginning, but the bugs got sorted out when there was more than one person.
it does work, once a noobie dropped that exact combo after alot of flaming and we somehow ended up winning, it turns out we were sneaking up on the rines so they couldn't drop the rts and then by the time the 3rd hive came up we had onos and finished them off.
The problem is not in the chambers, its in the players. People have to learn that each chamber forces you to play a unique style, you cant just pick an upgrade and rush marines face-to-face, die, and then complain that the "noob gorge" put down a sensory chamber first.
You want to give me examples? Fine, I'll go to specifics.
Movement chamber:
1) Celerity
- Helps Skulks, by making them faster so they get in bite range faster
- Helps Gorges, because it allows them to outrun marines (it works if you run as soon as you hear the footsteps, if you can't hear an enemy coming you would die no matter what.)
- Currently doesn't help lerks much because they lack bite. However, in 3.0, it helps them greatly, as they can do effective hit and run attacks again.
- Helps Fades because a Fade is just slightly faster than a light marine, you often have to blink to chase them...
- Helps Onos because they are too damn slow.
2) Adrenaline
- Help skulks hit and run attacks (leap in, bite 2, 3, 4 times, leap out, and you still have adrenaline left.)
- Helps gorges because they can use health spray more often.
- Helps lerks because it allows them to use their costly skills more often.
- Helps fades because you can use metabolize and blink more often.
- Helps Oni because you can stun marines forever if you time it right. (I did it more than a couple times)
3) Silence
- Help skulks because they can sneak behind any marine's back and they won't notice, not until you bite them once
- Helps gorges because they can build or run away without attracting any unwanted attention
- Helps lerks if you don't want or need to use spores often, usually players don't notice that you are spiking them to death, if they do, they won't know where its coming from unless you are very exposed
- Helps fades the same way it help skulks, camp in a vent or a high place, and when marines come nearby, blink out, get on their back, kill him, hide again.
- Helps oni just as much as carapace or pheromones =p
Sensory chamber - a sensory chamber on a hive greatly helps against spawn campers.
1) Cloacking
The cloacking upgrade NEGATES motion tracking, and as a plus, it makes you invisible when not running or attacking. People that complain that sensory is useless vs observatories are probably camping near a SC and don't research cloacking. (OMGDzzz if I rEsEaRcH cLoAcKiNgZz I wIlL tAkE lOnGeR tO gO OnOs yOu n00b! - is not a valid point) scan costs a lot of energy, comms can't scan forever, and if they build a lot of observatories, they are going to tech very slow...) get cloacking and camp outside marine start where the observatory can't get you. If the comm scans, he will soon be out of energy, and the party begins, you can kill 3 or more marines before needing to heal at a hive...
2) Scent of fear
Seeing trough walls should never be underestimated. You can tell how many are there, where they are. If you hear a building sound and scent of fear only shows a single mark, go in and kill that lonely marine. If you didn't know there was just one on the other side of the wall, you would probably ask for help and by then the phase gate would be fully operational.
I won't talk about pheromones because its going to be out on 3.0...
I think this pretty much covers it... you can't just "research an upgrade and jump into the action" with movement or sensory chambers like you can do with a defense chamber. You will have to use stealth. If you can't change your style of play, its not the chambers fault.
I personally never had any problems playing with other chambers, it all depends on how the team behaves.
1/1 shotgun > focus
D benefits everyone 99% of the time, basically.
M benefits only certain classes with certain upgrades [and others less so].
S ... benefits ... those who can use it "effectively" [and others even LESS].
afaisi, (as far as i see it) focus helps alittle, but once people know how to counter it it'll become just as useless as cloak in the middle stage of the game and as useless as silence when the marines have MT.
-silence: skulk heaven. Skulks can lurk around in the vents and shafts that criss-cross all of the maps and grants them near immortality. If the marines don't notice them, and the skulk can approach from behind, it's all over.
-cloaking: ANYTHING heaven. If you find a marine, stand still to turn the cloaking on, and hold down the shift key as you slowly approach, cloaked and perfectly silent. I do this a lot: they're staring through me right up until their last moments. I do this as a skulk, fade, or onos. And it can save your life as a gorge or a lerk. If you're being chased, turn the corner and wait. It bugs marines when you vanish, and in reality you're slowly walking down the hall, unnoticed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Umbraed monkey</b>
Of course, you were here when 2.0 was released to know that what DID come out was not what the playtesters balanced. What they had created was deemed PERFECTLY balanced, but too slow and not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, and have you read threads vets made about 3.0 and why it's taking so damn long? Same situation: It's slow, it sucks, and it's not fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>swiftspear</b>
Focus won't screw you over when attacking all things that require more than one bite due to the fact that when you bite someone currently, your next bite will miss due to knockback.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only if the marine is airborne, and even then they only occasionally knockback.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>boggle</b>
the purpose of Focus is to benefit, in early game, the more experienced players. Instead of going in and biting madly, they can go in and bite a couple of times. The only difference is, those bites matter. It's almost as if the skulks is going "hang on, wait for it... NOW" and biting instead of going "BITE BITE BITE BITE BITE"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't ask what it is or why it's in. What I <b>did</b> say is that it's the stupidest upgrade I've ever heard of, and listed my reasons why.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>more boggle</b>
What right does everybody else have to comment on 3.0? Absolutely b****r all! NS is a game created by 1 guy, released to the public for free. He can do what he bloody well likes with it. It's his game for pete's sake. If you don't like it, don't play it. Now maybe if you had had a hand in it's development, you may just be justified in saying "I don't think this is working" but, AFAIK, you are just some guy who d/l this game from fileplanet, found the forums and stated flaming the guy who created it. Sorry, but that's not right.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Christ who rained on your parade?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>more nonsense from boggle</b>
Please, the devs don't need any more, especially completely unjustified ones. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you completely freaking dense? Does your brain work? Are you even the same species as me? Let me lay it to you in nice simple words you can understand: Flayra make change. Change go into changelog. We hear change. Smart people (not you) are actually capable of analyzing this data and coming to usually dead-on conclusions. Dumb people (like you) make stupid words, making unfounded flames for no purpose but to brag that you're a tester and I'm not.
Look boggle: We have an attack that does 1 attack a second at 100 damage. With focus it does 200 damage per 2.5 seconds (I don't know what the REAL ROF penalty is but I know it's more then double). This means that in 5 seconds, without focus I do 500 damage and with focus I do 400. For anything that takes more then 200 damage to kill <b>it takes longer to kill, you dense brickhead</b>. I post about this and you reply: <b>FFS YOU FECKING NUB **** YOU YOU STUPID **** U R freaking WRONG FFS OMGOMGOMWTH NUB NUB NOT A VET AHAHHAHA I R BETTER!!!!!1111!11onoeoenon!!!11ONe</b> - Logic, Evidently you lack even basic skills in that regard. (Funny thing is, you say 'OMG U KNOW NOTHING' and I get replies right away that says I'm dead-on.)
Welcome to my ignore list you primate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Nefilim</b>
I really never understood the point of defense chambers first. What good do they do at the start of a match when everyone is a skulk?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are correct, defense has little use for skulks. However, defense CAN help some skulks (redempt skulk, as silly and stupid as it sounds, I have astounding success with). The biggest boon comes when you can't rely on getting a 2nd hive up in a timely manner. Defense will DEFINATELY help early-game fades, or offense chambers, and keeping the hive healthy if the marines make it too close. Sensory helps in none of those regards.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Nefilim</b>
I can easily see focus winning games. Focus makes unupgraded marines fall to skulks way too easy. Seriously, two focused skulks often times take out squads of marines in an ambush. With an upgrade like this, taking control of a second hive is simple. That's when you get your other upgrades.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Quoting myself</b>
Except, like shotgun rushes, every few games will crop up a S first in an 'all or nothing' attack. I've read the testimonials about how focus completely DESTROYS early game marines, but I've not read anything that suggests it's even worth the time gestating to it in late game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>ha.ze</b>
Just because every upgrade doesnt benifit every lifeform doesnt mean its a bad chamber. Defense chamberes main purpose (to heal) are easily replaced by a hive and a gorge. So thats regen and the defense chamber's ability completly useless when you can just run to a nearby gorge. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a sense, no, sensory isn't always the worst choice. However, many MANY people (generally those who like sensory first) fail to have any foresight whatsoever. If you can't get a hive up soon for whatever reason, your fades are very very limited in what they can do (defense or movement chambers, lacking) and your midgame suffers. If the marines relocate then you're REALLY in trouble and you have a nice long stalemate to look forward to. Then they're shocked when they lose.<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>ha.ze</b>
Also, your beginning state with the "Celerity as a lerk? Adrenline is MUCH more useful." Well how about a "Redemption as a skulk? Carapace is MUCH more useful."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->No comment. Statement is so void of logic there's no way I can reply that'd make you realize it. Why don't you start justifying early game cloak onos based on your experiences with pheremones skulk? Yeah, that's how stupid that statement is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>more ha.ze</b>
And yes, cloaking is negated by obs, but a commander does place an obs in every single friggen hallway of the darn map for peat sakes.
And the biggest fact is people have their heads so far up their bootys that they dont realize there are other tatics than just ONE. SMD can work just as well as DMS. MDS can too or MSD. It just depends on how your own team plays, because in 3.0 all the chambers are equal. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, cloaking is negated by: Any attempts to get around the map in a timely manner, it's negated by the fact that sometimes people don't like spending 700 res on a map-wide network, it's negated by marines that can actually SEE (and cloaked aliens aren't very hard to see, especially if you crank gamma), and it's negated by <b>free</b> sensor scans and observatories. I really don't care if I 'ambush' an HA train (Whatever that means... it's not like I'm going to do any more damage to an HA when I 'ambush' him then I would if I just leaped out of a vent), because, wow, a half-second burst of an HMG and I'm dead. Unless your ambush is your ENTIRE TEAM, you only get one shot to pull off the ambush, and your chance of killing the HAs are slim.
Secondly, I'm not going to try an exotic chamber because I like it and I'm going to GUESS how my team will play. Some people are completely badass and can win the game as a fade alone. Some people like you think skulks are the only way to go. That's stupid and self centered. Custard thought his regiment of men could take on 2,000 Indian warriors. Custard didn't survive now did he?
(On one more note: Silence is another 'specialized' upgrade. Silence is 210% totally useless with motion tracking, and once you start attacking, if the marines have any brains whatsoever they'll see you on the minimap, or just turn around and shoot you.
And who are you? Do I know you? No, didn't think so. So stop spamming.
EDIT: Funny, no one named Teflon even under 'banned' on the members list...
<b>Your</b> statement is the only one void of logic. Youre basing a whole chamber one how one upgrade is "not useful" (in your eyes) to one class. Just becaue it isnt all of a sudden the chamber isnt as flexable as DC. I made my own statement just like yours to show that DC is just as flexable as MC.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First, cloaking is negated by: Any attempts to get around the map in a timely manner, it's negated by the fact that sometimes people don't like spending 700 res on a map-wide network, it's negated by marines that can actually SEE (and cloaked aliens aren't very hard to see, especially if you crank gamma), and it's negated by free sensor scans and observatories. I really don't care if I 'ambush' an HA train (Whatever that means... it's not like I'm going to do any more damage to an HA when I 'ambush' him then I would if I just leaped out of a vent), because, wow, a half-second burst of an HMG and I'm dead. Unless your ambush is your ENTIRE TEAM, you only get one shot to pull off the ambush, and your chance of killing the HAs are slim.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Negated by an attempt to get around the map in a timely manner? Right. You dont need to walk <b>everywhere</b>, just while your around the enemy. Negated by marines seeing you, thats true. But you dont need to move, and thats really only when they see you -- if you stay completly still and let them come to you, you are virtually invisible. Negated by scans as well, but what commander knows every location to scan for every cloaked enemy near his every marine? I wouldnt know.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>(From above.. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)</b>
I really don't care if I 'ambush' an HA train (Whatever that means... it's not like I'm going to do any more damage to an HA when I 'ambush' him then I would if I just leaped out of a vent), because, wow, a half-second burst of an HMG and I'm dead. Unless your ambush is your ENTIRE TEAM, you only get one shot to pull off the ambush, and your chance of killing the HAs are slim.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if you actually <b>read</b>my post, you would know that I was talking about cloaking for onos. If you have a cloaked onos to ambush a heavy train it works quite well. You just need to keep them stomped (heres where adrenline comes in, hence the order SMD) until teammates arrive. If not, then you'll have to eat one, stomp again, gore, stomp, you know..
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, I'm not going to try an exotic chamber because I like it and I'm going to GUESS how my team will play. Some people are completely badass and can win the game as a fade alone. Some people like you think skulks are the only way to go. That's stupid and self centered. Custard thought his regiment of men could take on 2,000 Indian warriors. Custard didn't survive now did he?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where did I say I thought skulks were the only way to go? Dont start putting words in my mouth like above. And what the hell does Custard have to do with this?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In a sense, no, sensory isn't always the worst choice. However, many MANY people (generally those who like sensory first) fail to have any foresight whatsoever. If you can't get a hive up soon for whatever reason, your fades are very very limited in what they can do (defense or movement chambers, lacking) and your midgame suffers. If the marines relocate then you're REALLY in trouble and you have a nice long stalemate to look forward to. Then they're shocked when they lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades are limited to what they do. You have to play different, ambush with cloaking, watch and strike when the time is right with SoF, or do hit and run attacks with focus (in 3.0). And how is relocating effecting sensory?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On one more note: Silence is another 'specialized' upgrade. Silence is 210% totally useless with motion tracking, and once you start attacking, if the marines have any brains whatsoever they'll see you on the minimap, or just turn around and shoot you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines dont get motion tracking in the very beginning of the game (sometimes they dont get it at all -- its an expensive upgrade) and dont see you with silence. Carapace is another 'specialized' upgrade, because marines can kill you faster and carapace has no effect, its just like before. Everything has a counter.
I do believe your attitude toward boggle was extreamly unnessary. We're not trying to turn this into a flame war. If somone flames, please, just ignore them and move on, because there is no benefit to flaming them back.
And sensory just isn't for the fade. Lacking a defense chamber (Fades have very low capacity to soak damage) or movement chamber (Fades are stamina SUVs and rediculously slow), you then have to rely on:
Cloaking: Standing around in a weaker-then-you-could-be state so you can ambush a marine. However, blink is very fast and for all purposes, blinking across the map to a marine is just as much an ambush as standing there cloaked. Furthermore, fades are big. And big means you're very easy to see while cloaked. Scent of Fear? Again, with blink it's not really needed unless you're almost dead (And with a defense chamber...). If you want to know what's coming just blink in and blink away in a split second.
(BTW: You kept saying 'Celerity for skulk -= pwn! Cloak for skulk you can win! Silence with skulk on the ceiling!' Since every 'argument' you have is based on skulk, I figure you don't know that other lifeforms do exist.)
MC first - maybe. SC first? No.
MY SOLUTION:
Allow all upgrades at hive 1 (simultaneously), but only allow lvl 1 upgrades to be in effect. Lvl 2 comes at 2nd hive, and lvl 3 at 3rd hive. Then increase the power of each lvl of upgrades just slightly to even out the balance of early, mid, and late games. I'm sure there would need to be tweaks to power on the 'rines side as well, but I admit that my disdain for playing as a 'rine keeps me from intimately knowing how to do this most effectively.
Any combination and order of chambers can help the alien team win a game, but each combination requires the aliens to play the game differently, and it has been shown numerous times in this thread, that people generally don't want to have to think about anyone else's tactics, they just want to <b><i>get on with the game</i></b>. My opinion is that those sort of people should <b>go and play CS or TFC instead </b>(although some may argue that these games rely on tactics as well, playing without a game plan seems to be acceptable to most TFC players).
NS is a great game. However, it is <i>also</i> a game that requires more logical and strategic thinking than most others. There are many ways to play it, as both aliens and marines. However, one can not experience them all without adapting to other situations (eg. combinations of chambers) and making the best of it.
teflon: as i recall, you were temporarily suspended for flaming in a thread about the veteran program.
i hope the mods lock this and any future threads you start, from what I've seen they're nothing but a pitiful attempt to capture attention and prove that you're right.
You are so wrong,cloacking owns all...but every 1 is like"ehh,we want dc 1rst"and if u drop a sens in sted, they'll be like"who's the **** moron who droped sens 1rst?what a freaking noob."
i think that sens at the start is not that bad...Case Closed =P
Well, I was talking about 2.0. SC's can't be used against good marine teams.
However, in 3.0, the power of focus is so great I'm not gonna say if it's possible to win with them as first hive chamber.
Also, I think what may become a popular strategy is D-S-M, because at the 2 hive stage a D/S fade is devestating is done properly, focus fades kill extreamlly well. I mean, you just run in, hit them ONCE, run out.
You heal, run in again, hit them just ONCE, and if you hit the same marine, he's dead no matter what, no amount of medspam can save you from focus.
Funny how it comes back to the fade, but meh.
Of course D then M wil always be standard fare, however with the fade at 60 res my personal favorite is M first (celerity/silence skulks dominate, adren gorges for teh win) followed by D chambers at 2 hives to support the bigger lifeforms.
This is only for 3.0, and I've yet to seen effective solid strategies with sensory first, but I'm going to reserve final judgement from now.
Although I do agree with you a little, the sensory chambers future still looks rather bleak.
the purpose of Focus is to benefit, in early game, the more experienced players. Instead of going in and biting madly, they can go in and bite a couple of times. The only difference is, those bites matter. It's almost as if the skulks is going "hang on, wait for it... NOW" and biting instead of going "BITE BITE BITE BITE BITE"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't ask what it is or why it's in. What I <b>did</b> say is that it's the stupidest upgrade I've ever heard of, and listed my reasons why. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was just pointing out why it wasnt the stupidest upgrade - relating directly to your point as to why it was. Have you even tried focus? How can you comment on something you have only heard about, and never tried? surely first-hand knowledge gained from playing 3.0 (mine) is much more reliable that people just looking at a changlelog and saying "OMG that is teh sux."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>more boggle</b>
What right does everybody else have to comment on 3.0? Absolutely b****r all! NS is a game created by 1 guy, released to the public for free. He can do what he bloody well likes with it. It's his game for pete's sake. If you don't like it, don't play it. Now maybe if you had had a hand in it's development, you may just be justified in saying "I don't think this is working" but, AFAIK, you are just some guy who d/l this game from fileplanet, found the forums and stated flaming the guy who created it. Sorry, but that's not right.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Christ who rained on your parade?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everybody who comes along without even playing 3.0 and saying "OMG this is teh sux." Yes, you rained on my parade.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>more nonsense from boggle</b>
Please, the devs don't need any more, especially completely unjustified ones. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you completely freaking dense? Does your brain work? Are you even the same species as me? Let me lay it to you in nice simple words you can understand: Flayra make change. Change go into changelog. We hear change. Smart people (not you) are actually capable of analyzing this data and coming to usually dead-on conclusions. Dumb people (like you) make stupid words, making unfounded flames for no purpose but to brag that you're a tester and I'm not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me put this in layman's terms too:
Flayra think of a game, Flayra and a bunch of mates make game. Flayra think of change, flayra put change in changelog. Well informed people (like myself) try out new change and see that it works really well. Not so well informed people (you) read changlelog, think they understand and say "OMG that is teh sux." I do not brag about me bing a tester. I simply point out that I and all the other testers have a much better idea as to if the new upgrades are a good idea. It would be foolish not to listen to the testers. We have much more experience as we have actually played the game. If you want to know what Mt Everest is like, you wouldn't ask some bloke on the street who only knows how it is spelt, you would ask people who have actually climbed it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look boggle: We have an attack that does 1 attack a second at 100 damage. With focus it does 200 damage per 2.5 seconds (I don't know what the REAL ROF penalty is but I know it's more then double). This means that in 5 seconds, without focus I do 500 damage and with focus I do 400. For anything that takes more then 200 damage to kill <b>it takes longer to kill, you dense brickhead</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, please try to be slightly less insulting. Is is asking for a one way ticket to bansville. However, you do make some valid points, so I will try to respond to them.
vanilla marines fall with one bite to focus. that is where it's power lies. an early skulk with focus can easily get enough RFK to get a more powerful level such as fade or even onos.
After the marines have got lvl 1 armour, they no longer die in one bite, they die in two. This means that a focus skulk would take longer to kill a lvl 1 armour marine than a non focus skulk. by that time, however, focus has served its worth. nor you get cloaking or SOF and ambush them. you have got enough res to put up the 2nd hive or go fade and win the game
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I post about this and you reply: <b>FFS YOU FECKING NUB **** YOU YOU STUPID **** U R freaking WRONG FFS OMGOMGOMWTH NUB NUB NOT A VET AHAHHAHA I R BETTER!!!!!1111!11onoeoenon!!!11ONe</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please, dont put words into my mouth. I never said anything of the sort.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - Logic, Evidently you lack even basic skills in that regard. (Funny thing is, you say 'OMG U KNOW NOTHING' and I get replies right away that says I'm dead-on.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems to me that you are the one lacking in logic. You claim to know more about the game that you have only read about, while i have played it. and there you go aagain putting words into my mouth
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Welcome to my ignore list you primate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An insult to end all insults... "You primate." good grief. Some people evidently cannot grasp basic biology.
2) Movement chambers are more limited. Celerity as a lerk? Adrenaline is MUCH more useful. The upgrades are more limited, only benefitting some lifeforms in some way. Silence as an onos can be fun, but face it, running 20 feet down a corridor only to die by a marine emptying and reloading his clip 12 times isn't funny. It's downright sad.
3) Sensory Chambers. Some swear by them, and some commanders laugh into voice comm as they drop a couple observatories and proceed to neutralize the network. Scent of fear is the only upgrade actually worth something, and even then, it's not THAT great. In the early game, you dont need scent of fear: Marines will be toiling about their base like ants, or heading to res nodes. In maps like mineshaft, or Tanith, sense of fear is useless, because the map is so damned small or linear you can get around or predict movements. (It is, however, very useful in a map like eclipse).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Rege =>> Any class
.....Cara =>> Skulk/Lerk
.....Rede =>> Fade/Gorge/Onos
2) Cele =>> Any class can benefit from this
.....Adre =>> Gorge/Lerk/Fade
.....Sile =>> Again, any class
3) Scen =>> Any class
.....Cloak =>> Again, any class
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Defence Chambers benefit EVERY LIFEFORM in EVERY WAY<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And others do not? IMO, people who always *demand* DC to be the first chamber do not know how to use other chambers properly, or other life-forms. Still, at the moment, SC lacks that third option (laughted out loud when I first noticed those small *funny* looking gas clouds coming from a marine in onos' stomach <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> -until I realized what they really were) and isn't as good choise for a first chamber because of that. So, until 3.0 comes out, it really should be either D/M + S or D + M/S <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
But that is just my opinion, so don't mind me; continue bashing for the glory of the one and only, godlike DC. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Everything has a counter, every chamber can be countered by the marines. This is as it should be, the aliens should not get a free ticket. I think the real problem is commitment. Once the aliens are going down one route, thats it. If the marines setup to counter the aliens chosen route they will win. Marines can adapt to alien strategy as their steuctures are easily replaced. Aliens cannot adapt, once they have a chamber thats it. The only thing needed to inject a new dynamisim to ns is to allow the aliens to change their game partway through.
To have any effect however these changes would have to be without penalty and possible in split seconds, perhaps even during combat. If free and rapid change wasn't possible then aliens would stick with one chamber first anyway.
How about gorges providing chamber cover of their choice for other lifeforms? This way they could setup ambushes and change to healing in thick fights, or movement for other attacks. Ie the source of upgrade powers is the moblie gorge itself. I could see this working really well with sc gorg and skulk squad creeping in then the gorg changeing to dc for the fight, or movement for fast attackers.
I always liked the idea of kharaa RTs being able to heal aliens that was proposed before 2.0. That way, higher lifeforms would have an easier time without DCs. Until then, DCs are probably the "safe" option.