"if Aliens Don't Win Quick They Should Lose"
InquisitiveIdiot
Join Date: 2003-10-21 Member: 21854Members
Join Date: 2003-10-21 Member: 21854Members
<div class="IPBDescription">!= Game Balance</div> It seems that lately it has become fashionable to champion the idea that if the kharaa fail to destroy the marines within 10 minutes, they deserve to lose the game. This is put forward as balance: that aliens should be forced to attack constantly if they are to have any hope of victory, while marines should merely survive long enough to get a full team of heavies, then proceed with the ownage. Veterans say this. People who should have played long enough to know better.
Needless to say, I disagree.
The outcome of a properly balanced game should ALWAYS have a chance of a turnaround. At any point in the game if the team that's currently in the lead slacks off the underdog should have a chance to come out on top. A properly balanced game should not be one where one team will inevitably bunker down and the other will inevitably be forced to break the siege or die trying. If marine turtling is a valid tactic, balance is only reached if the aliens can tech as well to counter them.
Or, if you all MUST have an aggressive/defensive relationship, the one currently in place is bass-ackwards. The kharaa are infesting a station/outpost/whatever, and the marines are a hardcore assault team sent to clean the place out. If anything, it's the aliens that should have an advantage if the game goes long, as their infestation becomes more permanent and the marines' situation more hopeless.
At any rate, the current theory is both horribly wrong in terms of game balance and completely nonsensical in terms of the backstory. That's all I wanted to say.
Needless to say, I disagree.
The outcome of a properly balanced game should ALWAYS have a chance of a turnaround. At any point in the game if the team that's currently in the lead slacks off the underdog should have a chance to come out on top. A properly balanced game should not be one where one team will inevitably bunker down and the other will inevitably be forced to break the siege or die trying. If marine turtling is a valid tactic, balance is only reached if the aliens can tech as well to counter them.
Or, if you all MUST have an aggressive/defensive relationship, the one currently in place is bass-ackwards. The kharaa are infesting a station/outpost/whatever, and the marines are a hardcore assault team sent to clean the place out. If anything, it's the aliens that should have an advantage if the game goes long, as their infestation becomes more permanent and the marines' situation more hopeless.
At any rate, the current theory is both horribly wrong in terms of game balance and completely nonsensical in terms of the backstory. That's all I wanted to say.
Comments
The reason veterans are saying this is because, according to the games mechanics, this is the way it is, and the only way it works. Something should be done.
Yes, one more thing to add to your post, if you will:
One team's 'balance' shouldn't be 100% dependent on said team's general skill level.
The chance of a come-back is much greater in 2.01 than in previous patches though, an onos down and the marines can probably push back the aliens quite a bit (untill the next one arrives).
[edit] Now, there's one big problem when balancing a game like NS, it is balancing "skill". If you try to balance the game for the great players, which is a must if the game is to survive, balance is going to stink on the lower levels. People that always hit what they aim at will win against a skulk 1 on 1 almost always, to balance this out you change the skulk. Now skulks rule early game against less skilled people and the game is "unbalanced" (this was just an example). This is the fundamental problem, and the reason why the schism between the "top clan-players" and most everybody else exists. [/edit]
The chance of a come-back is much greater in 2.01 than in previous patches though, an onos down and the marines can probably push back the aliens quite a bit (untill the next one arrives). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It generally depends on the map and the situation. If you get your onos after a minor victory, even, you can easilly move into position and keep them in their base, unless they have an advanced phase gate network set up (Which is rare... they're costly) Unfortunately, the absolute <b>worst</b> map for aliens is ns_nothing. Let marines get to endgame in that map and you're screwed.
The chance of a come-back is much greater in 2.01 than in previous patches though, an onos down and the marines can probably push back the aliens quite a bit (untill the next one arrives). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you are seeing is the steady encroachment of Marines into alien territory. It is not the opposite, but the exact same thing we are talking about. Fades and Onos's can go rampaging through the map, untill they hit the marines primary (or if they are good; secondary) turtle base, and that is where it stops. Then marines just rack up the res, pour out the LVL 3 HA HMG/SG/GL and let loose, slowly takeing down alien bases and RTs one by one.
That isn't a turnaround at all, that is common marine strategy.
[edit] reposting my edit so people wont miss it [/edit]
Now, there's one big problem when balancing a game like NS, it is balancing "skill". If you try to balance the game for the great players, which is a must if the game is to survive, balance is going to stink on the lower levels. People that always hit what they aim at will win against a skulk 1 on 1 almost always, to balance this out you change the skulk. Now skulks rule early game against less skilled people and the game is "unbalanced" (this was just an example). This is the fundamental problem, and the reason why the schism between the "top clan-players" and most everybody else exists.
If the aliens don't know how to work as a team, then the marines may have a chance. All it takes to break a turtle is just get every node on the map other than start, then when they head out, hit their base and take out the phase. They're forced to relocate, but have to wait for three minutes to get an advanced armoury. Get your onos to devour them, and xeno them and your on your way to another alien win.
As an alien, I've seen a dozen turnaround victories.
One guy gets onos, he takes out the rines res. Aliens cap the res and hold rines at base. Next thing you see are a bunch of fades and onos. Get all the hives. Xeno them.
But anway, the point is that it can be done in small games, and it can be done on purpose, as people's strategy. No one wants to lose RT's, but if you do it right and get positive res inflow (overcoming the 15 you spent on the node itself) then you can turtle a base pretty well.
**EDIT** BTW he had a hive he got REAL early, and used phase tech to make sure he kept it.
Let's pretend we're on a server with good players...at least a couple on each team. The most likely outcome will be as follows:
a) Aliens rush early (lots of GOOD aliens), destroy marine team or manage to put up blockades around the marine base, marines get res starved and aliens go wild on res and win the game.
b) Marines are good enough to destroy a lot of skulks but Comm is only halfway decent so game drags on...and on...and on. Eventual end is a good marine tells the comm exactly what to do and the marines decimate the aliens or the aliens eventually push back the marines to their base where they get held off for an hour and a half by constant barrages of level 3 weapons and gunfire. (speaking of which, where's that alien comeback or at least last man standing fight you promised the aliens Flayra? level 1 skulk vs. level 3 HA/HMG? not hardly)
c) Marines are decent, comm is good, aliens are good. Marines procede to do pretty much anything they want, res node rush (cap nodes fast, TF in main to hold off aliens, res flows in like melted butter), shottie hive rush or just wait it out until they have 4 bazillion res, everyone has level 3 armor and weapons and then rines proceed to siege (give me one good freaking reason why you have to siege a level 1 skulk infested hive when you have GL/HA/JP/HMG, when you could just as easily have one or two people guarding a phase gate with an electrified TF)
That's pretty much all I'm seeing, and I expect to see a lot more alien wins as the good players trickle and then crash over to Steam (I play on steam) after 3.0 comes out.
So hopefully this balance has been evened out...for good this time.
Turtling != map control. I'm all for map control - if you only control 40% of the map, you should have to play 60% better to compete. I'm against <i>turtling</i> - the entire marine team hiding in Satellite Communications behind 30+ turrets until such time as they can storm out in heavy armor.
If the alien team controls 8 rts to the marines' 2 for any length of time, they should have no trouble winning the game. Problem is, at the time of this writing wiping out a fully-staffed marine base is something like eating boiled crab: messy, difficult, time-consuming and at the end of the day you're not quite sure whether it was worth it. The bits you do get are tasty, though.
Compare this with the standard marine response to any kind of alien defense - the siege cannon. Marines have an easy though expensive means by which to end alien turtling while the aliens have nothing of the sort, and have to end camping the hard way - over the dead bodies of their comrades. Therein lies the imbalance.
Aliens have to defend all 3 hives and all the resnodes they can get in order to tech up, while marines can settle for a hive or Marine start and a few nodes. The aliens have to be way more defensive in order to win. The problem is- The aliens' only true defensive building (OC) can be successfully countered by zero-cost unupgraded marines. If that isn't enough, the marines have a weapon that breaches all possible defenses effortlessly without even going into the area. Additionally, marines can literally sever the alien tech-tree by conveniently knocking one spot down using the siege cannon, turretfarming the location and waiting for upgrades.
Now don't start talking about numbers. Marine res is extremely fast, and any comm with a basic understanding of comming can siege a hive in the midgame, turretfarm it and still have enough res for upgrades.
Marines combine ultimate defence with brute force, while the aliens are lousy defenders with a mediocre attack force (compared to the marine tech).
Letting the marines turtle successfully is stupid. They came here to attack, not sit around and wait.
Actually for some reason I'm all for it, I mean the alien gestation-strategy (or whateva) is as farking stale in 2.01 as it was in 1.04.
"What's the point of getting all these nice upgrades and evolutions if you can't use them?"
Why should the marines not have a fair fight at hive 3?
As for bile bomb, I wouldn't mind a power-up at hive 3.
If the marines get out of the base and quickly grab several res points and hold them for a while at the start of the game, it's much more likely that you will win.
My pub experience generally says that for aliens to win, 5+ RTs is gonna help, since your res is spread out all over the team. For marines, three res points (if you hold them) is fine for most of the game. The larger the teams, the more res you want/need for a decisive victory.
Again, these are pub experiences, not clan level.
Needless to say, I disagree.
The outcome of a properly balanced game should ALWAYS have a chance of a turnaround. At any point in the game if the team that's currently in the lead slacks off the underdog should have a chance to come out on top. A properly balanced game should not be one where one team will inevitably bunker down and the other will inevitably be forced to break the siege or die trying. If marine turtling is a valid tactic, balance is only reached if the aliens can tech as well to counter them.
Or, if you all MUST have an aggressive/defensive relationship, the one currently in place is bass-ackwards. The kharaa are infesting a station/outpost/whatever, and the marines are a hardcore assault team sent to clean the place out. If anything, it's the aliens that should have an advantage if the game goes long, as their infestation becomes more permanent and the marines' situation more hopeless.
At any rate, the current theory is both horribly wrong in terms of game balance and completely nonsensical in terms of the backstory. That's all I wanted to say. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If games are TRUELY banlaned in a matter of number of players, and the skill of each team
it can go for hours(i have seen this, and taken part of alot of it dureing the years)
those are truely the funist games
no not the lets be **** and turtle marines
the marines that wanna win
with the aliens wanting to win also
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
I thought of 2 ways (it won't be added anyway cause its way to complex for a 3.0 release <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Every resnode would provide a certain level of energy every few seconds. The more nodes the more energy. You need that much energy for every advanced bulding. You could also expand that to obs and other buildings but that would cause an imbalance again.
So. Lets say marine are turtled at one hive and only have on node. They got enough energy to power either proto or arms lab (cause if you keep both it won't be enough for one of them) so you have to decide what you want to keep. Lvl 3 upgrades or HA's. You could also sell both labs for a short time to fill your energie bar up and get a massive HA lvl 3 train out. But until then your vulnerealbe (spelling? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ).
P.S. Not everythings mine.
I've seen and like Tyrain's idea. However, I think it would work better in the form of res upkeep. Structures have to pay 1 res per x ticks where x depends on the structure type. The projected net change for the next tick can be displayed next to or under the current res (e.g. "104 (-4)").
How many times have you seen an Onos stand in a door way, stomp 3 times, and turn around? Now picture 6 Onos's performing this brave tactic of doom. The Marine team stands across the room, out of range of the door, HMG's geared up, picking off skulks as they all rush to their suicide, waiting for their 100 res.
While this is happening, the Marines are getting 3 free res for each ignorant, bored, or suicidal skulk.
What makes it more pathetic, is that the Skulks will probably kill 2 or 3 guys in the following 20 minutes, save for the occasional snack that runs out with his LMG and gives the aliens some free res.
The rectification for this, I think, is that the aliens should co-ordinate more often. I've seen squads of HAs torn apart by 3 skulks (Assuming they forgot their shot guns). 4 HA's are easily taken by 2 Onos's (Stomp, devour, gore, gore, stomp, gore). One Onos will not take out a relocation to a hive, but bring 6, and the marines will have to split up their shots.
Another thing - Regeneration is a crutch. Sure, an Onos will get 45HP a tick, but with Carapace, they will make it to the marines. Co-ordination, once again, plays an important role; A gorge or 3 should be on that ono's ****, healing continuously, while stopping for the occasional OT.
The problem is not balance in this case; As I've said before about other NS games, it's stale tactics. This is not Counter Strike, where the most variety in tactics is "Ok, this round we RUSH LEFT, FAQS".
Just my feelings.
Another thing - Regeneration is a crutch. Sure, an Onos will get 45HP a tick, but with Carapace, they will make it to the marines. Co-ordination, once again, plays an important role; A gorge or 3 should be on that ono's ****, healing continuously, while stopping for the occasional OT.
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Those 3 gorges could be leaping skulks or blinking fades. Or better, umbra lerks.
I've seen and like Tyrain's idea. However, I think it would work better in the form of res upkeep. Structures have to pay 1 res per x ticks where x depends on the structure type. The projected net change for the next tick can be displayed next to or under the current res (e.g. "104 (-4)"). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure this will probably work out almost the same way. Altough I feel that continious res costs are horid to every commander <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is true. Possibly reduce the ROF of BB and up the energy cost as well. Otherwise, just increase the 'thrust' on BB a lot, i.e. 2-3 times what it is currently.