Ns_trust - Beta Release

FrieChamp · January 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">Screens & Download</div> Hey everybody!
I have finished a beta version of my NS map and would like to hear your opinion. You can check out a bunch of screenshots below.

You can download the map <a href='http://www.friechamp.net/ns_trust_beta.zip' target='_blank'>right here</a>

(Note: You will need the <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/downloads/NS2-wad.zip' target='_blank'>ns2.wad</a> to play this map!)

Comments and <b>playtests</b> appreciated!

(Dropship + Holo model by Jmv_Cyber)

Background:

Any contact to the cargo carrier "CC-Trust 152" has been lost. Its emergency system
activated the auto-pilot and followed its route to the next civilized star system,
which happened to be the Earth's galaxy. While passing the orbit of Mars, a squad
of marines enters the carrier and checks it for possible threats...

Screenshots:

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust4.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust9.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust13.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust1.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust15.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust14.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust3.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust2.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust5.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust6.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust11.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust10.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust7.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust12.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust18.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust16.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust17.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

<img src='http://www.friechamp.net/images/ns_trust19.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

Brodin · January 2004

Whoa, some pretty sweet stuff there man, uhh, will you be filling in any of that empty space in the middle area of the map?

Kouji_San · January 2004

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'>

Well that the best smiley promoting my feelings about this map... Thats some very nice architecture and lighting you got going there.

Never seen a layout like this one, different...

btw this map has got to have a story behind it

*screams tell us <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> !!!* <--nm this I read the ns_trust_beta.txt in the zip

GreetzZz Kouji_San

[edit] I see typos <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'> [/edit]

GhostlyPea · January 2004

fantastic...but like the dude said...it needs loads of filling in

chis1 · January 2004

sexy map <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Kouji_San · January 2004

The map looks so good and that was getting me worried about its multiplayer capability.
Just walked arround a bit with r_speeds on... but your layout needs some work cause at some points the r_speeds get up to 850 tot 1100+

The problem you now have is that it is going to have major lagg problems and also is not very kind to people who dont have a heavy 3d card.

I absolutely do <b>NOT</b> want you to take this as a flame but as constructive criticism <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> <span style='color:gray'>(Kouji San never flames)</span>

If you work arround the layout with visblockers like you used in some hives it might just work to get arround this problem and if you do so you will have a superb map on your hands.
I hope you take this advice since at its current state it will only play well on a LAN perhaps.

Location which need work at a first glance:

- Power supply
- Mainframe intersection looking towards Power supply
- Mainframe intersection looking towards Cargo room
- Cargo room looking in the direction of hive impulse generator

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><b>Resource Limits </b>

peak w-polys (r_speeds #) under 1000 for the commander view
average w-polys under 700 for the commander view
peak w-polys under 700 for all other players
average w-polys under 500 for all other players
peak baseline e-polys under 2100 for all other players
~4MB maximum texture memory usage (all texture memory used, not just the amount stored in the BSP as TEXINFO)
fewer than 300 runtime entities used on the map (fewer than 200 recommended)? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

quote taken from the <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/Mapping_Guidelines.html#Resource_Limits' target='_blank'>mapping guidelines</a>

GreetzZz Kouji San

FaT_CaM · January 2004

looking very nice, some bits seem a bit too square though...

FrieChamp · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>will you be filling in any of that empty space in the middle area of the map? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I would, if I didn't move closely along the HL engine limits. The map used to be bigger, I even had to cut a couple of rooms, because I got an "allocblock:full" error. It was bad <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I see typos</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

English isn't my first language, so there might be a couple of typos. Feel free to point them out to me!

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The problem you now have is that it is going to have major lagg problems and also is not very kind to people who dont have a heavy 3d card.If you work arround the layout with visblockers like you used in some hives it might just work to get arround this problem</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I added visblockers in the hives? Oh, I didn't know that <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>
Well, I experimented with hint brushes in the troublesome areas, but apparently they aren't that effective. I will work on the r_speeds..

Thanks for the feedback <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Notwendigkeitsuntersttzung · January 2004

Ramp in the 3rd pic looks to plain.
Corner beams post w/e don't look right in pic 5.

I like pic 1, 2, and 11 the best <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

DarkATi · January 2004

I am not sure where people got the idea that maps that are too big get allocblock:full. My map had one room and through some testing I managed to generate allockblock:full. Allocblock is caused by textures. Textures that are scaled too far down cause this error every time. This may occur in large maps more often then small maps but it shouldn't be a reason to not add more rooms. Good examples are maps like Fenris, which are huge and did not generate this error on the final compile. Wether the author had bouts with it during production I cannot say unfortuanetly.

So get to work on filling in that middle area, because that map looks so awesome it should be a crime to not add more to it!!

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> allocblock:full
A tough one to figure out, vague error that usually shows up when you start the game or during compile, or even when WC/Hammer starts up - you have gone over the memory limit somewhere for some reason. It can be too little RAM (128M is about minimum), a leaf saw into leaf error, too long pathnames, too many textures, too big a level, too big or too many model/sprites, too big a wav sound file - or it could be that old "too many wads" mistake, a huge "noob" brush around the map to prevent leaks, too many SKY faces on hidden brush faces in the level - or even something else. Example: In early versions of NS, the 3D area info location entities were a major cause.
If it happens during compile, do not use WC/Hammer to "run" the map, but use a front end or batch file to compile with. You could also get more RAM.

(The following may still be handy, however be aware that Software mode allocates memory dynamicly, so it may automaticly seem to "fix" any error. Therefore the following info MAY lead you into a dead end:
Some brush-based entities have rendering properties that, when they interact in OpenGL/D3D video cards, they crash. Switch Half-Life to Software mode first, then load the map. If it loads you now know it is something that is handle different in software, then for Opengl/d3d check water, glows, additive, sprites, transparencies (illusionaries, windows, ect.), env_beams and so on.)

If it happens in opening a level in WC, it may be you have an animating model showing in one view. You must switch to single view instead of multiple, and try different ones until you get past it.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I realize it says "too big a level" but I have found that this error is fixable on almost any sized map. (Notice I said "almost". There are exceptions of course.)

EDIT: LOL, I said in the beginning of my post that I didn't know where people got the idea, but I do since I posted Tommy14's take on it. LOL, shows you how tired I am. (Haven't slept in awhile.)

~ DarkATi

Kouji_San · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FrieChamp @ Jan 15 2004, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I see typos</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I mean I made 2 typos... But I'll keep and eye on you grammar <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

tip:
Type "gl_wireframe 2" (without the quotes) in the console, developer mode must be to 1, sv_cheat to I think...

Now you will see what is rendered (in wireframe) when you walk through your level. If you walk up to a room with a wall blocking your view into the room the room behind the wall shouldn't be rendered. (the visblocker <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>), if it still is rendered make the visblocker wider and the entrances into the room smaller.

In combination with r_speeds 1 they are the 2 most powerfull detection tools for r_speeds problem areas...

[edit]<span style='color:gray'>Note: I like the readyroom music <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'></span>[/edit]

MeanMrMustard · January 2004

looks really good, from a visual aspect.
The screenshots show are huge varied style and atmosphere, ranging from light/man-made style architecture- to the dark eery areas that chill ure bones <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

FrieChamp · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I am not sure where people got the idea that maps that are too big get allocblock:full</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I can exclude pretty much all the other possible reasons which may cause such an error except for the "map being too big" and your "small textures" theory. As I mentioned, I have cut rooms from my map and the error disappeared. Maybe it was a too small texture or something else I'm not sure. I will probably take the risk and slowly add more rooms and see what happens.

Thanks for the tips Kouji San, althought they are known to me. Hint brushes are just not that easy to handle as it sounds in tutorials and natural visblockers like common walls would prolly change the layout too intensively in this stage of the map (means I couldn't be arsed to do it and will rather try other methods like the hint brushes) <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

DarkATi · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FrieChamp @ Jan 15 2004, 03:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I am not sure where people got the idea that maps that are too big get allocblock:full</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I can exclude pretty much all the other possible reasons which may cause such an error except for the "map being too big" and your "small textures" theory. As I mentioned, I have cut rooms from my map and the error disappeared. Maybe it was a too small texture or something else I'm not sure. I will probably take the risk and slowly add more rooms and see what happens.

Thanks for the tips Kouji San, althought they are known to me. Hint brushes are just not that easy to handle as it sounds in tutorials and natural visblockers like common walls would prolly change the layout too intensively in this stage of the map (means I couldn't be arsed to do it and will rather try other methods like the hint brushes) <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I really hope you can conquer allocblock too because this map looks awesome man!

Great work and good luck. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

~ DarkATi

Erias · January 2004

Nice map, but...

HOLY CRAP!

There's this nifty thing called <i>compression</i>... it allows you to take screenies and make them so they aren't <i>TWELVE MEGABYTES</i> in total! I suggest you reduce the size and increase the compression on your screenshots to make things easy on broadband and dial-up users alike! Whoo!

Nurot · January 2004

Nice map our LAN just finished a game on it... Nice music in the ready room.... definately better than no sound at all in there.

Nurot · January 2004

Any overview or minimap in the forseeable future?

*nevermind* we are morons... forgot about buildminimap command

FrieChamp · January 2004

hmm? I had added a minimap to the .zip... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'>

Parallax · January 2004

I can't get the map to download (it always stops halfway through) but I can say something based on the other posts in this forum. You can't use hint brushes where there are no natural vis blockers. You must first make the vis blockers, and if that doesn't work, use the hint brushes to point your vis blockers out to the compiler. You can't use hint brushes to block out parts of the map which you should actually be able to see. The first thing you must to is to use gl_wireframe 2 to see what the engine is rendering, and then make a plan from there.

Unless you start with vis blockers, all you are doing with hint brushes is slicing your rooms into itty bitty peices, which hurts r_speeds real bad. I have found it is better to split the floor into smaller blocks rather than chucking around hint brushes, most of the time.

This is the nasty trap that gets many first-time mappers (often several times). You MUST build the entire map from the ground up with visibility blocking in mind. Unless you put enough stuff in there to block the players view the map will run real slow.

Nice tight vis blocking is good because it means you can make each room very detailed without slowing down the surrounding rooms.

I look forward to getting my hands on your map and offering some solid advice.

-Parallax

Aea · January 2004

Looks more dark and futuristic then any of the other maps, gj <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Parallax · January 2004

Okay. I have had a good look at your map. Those r_speed troubles arise not from layout but from very large entityies holding many brushes. One of these is so large that it is rendered from everywhere in the level (and adds a baseline 400 polys if even a small part of it is visible).

Split this into smaller peices and this problem should go away. Read on for more advice....

Parallax · January 2004

Here is an example of how having a huge entity being drawn all the time is a very very bad thing. Note however that this area will still have unacceptable r_speeds after that entity problem is fixed. Note how the roof is split into very small peices.

-Parallax

Parallax · January 2004

Here is a great candidate for a hint brush. That corridor in the background could be removed with a carefully placed hint brush (draw a line from where the hive is to the far corner of the corridor - I can show you given a map file.

Trust me, a whole section of that corridor being drawn in the background can be cut off.

I will leave the picture posting at that. If you want a hand to edit your map, I am happy to lend one. You have some very beautiful rooms in there, and I think that your layout is near perfect for good rspeeds. You just need to split some entities up into smaller peices and add a couple of hint brushes.

-Parallax

Kouji_San · January 2004

Hehe thats a better explenation then I did... screenshots say so much more then text, good job Parallax...

Btw I had the same problem in H-juntion on my map where i put the supportbeams all in one entity... I tried to save entity count and r_speeds...
the entitycount was gone but the r_speeds went up from 520 to 730... I was like WTH!!! why are the supportbeams rendered all over the place...
My solution was to make all supportbeams normal solids and leave a 1 grid gap between walls, ceiling and floor. Now the r_speeds are down from 730 to 517 at a maximum looking towards the broken door/hallway...

My tip and also Parallax mentioned it...

<b>USE AS FEW AS POSSIBLE SOLID ENTITIES!!! </b>and if you do use solid entities make sure they are small <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Normal solids produce much less r_speeds... MUCH LESS and also look better lit since it will block light...
(don't know about the zoner's block light stuff makes mine look dark <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'> I only use them in doors to stop light from messing up the light on the other side of the door)

GreetzZz Kouji San

liquidscript · January 2004

Nevertheless, this is a very sweet looking map. I love the contrasting colors everywhere, and the very dark and very light contrasting sections. You did a good job keeping the darker areas just bright enough with the neon blue and orange and green lights that they are still good fighting areas. I've given this map a good preview run-through and I like it a lot.

FrieChamp · January 2004

In fact during the whole mapping progress, I was asking myself if big entity structures are rendered at once all together or if it still depends on what you see (/on what the engine thinks you can see...). This clears things up and explains the high r_speeds in several areas.

So I got one major problem now. I am at 495 of 500 possible brush based entities, need to split up many of them to decrease the r_speeds plus having requests to expand the layout (which I would like to follow since there needs to be at least one more hallway around the "carrier bridge" hive). Suggestions? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

(One more time thanks for the comments guys, especially to you Parallax, if I cannot move on by myself I will give you access to the .rmf and we can tweak it together)

Kouji_San · January 2004

I just did a test with:

2 solid entities (15 sided cylinders)
2 normal solids (15 sided cylinders)

What I did was to crouch behind one so I could see the second one behind it in "gl_wireframe 2" completely

r _speeds solid entities: 56 w-poly
<img src='http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/cylindertest01.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

r _speeds normal solids: 36 w-poly
<img src='http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/cylindertest02.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

It seems that the solid entity is seen completely all arround somehow and the normal solid only the side you look at. translating this to your problem:

All you need to do is select the large solid entities en move them back to world, now if they touch the ceiling, floor or wall. vertex manipulate them so that theres a 1 unit/grid gap between them.
The larger a solid entity is the further the distance you can see it (even through walls 512x512 is seen everywhere in the level I read somewhere else). If you have one entity which is made up by 2 brushes for example and you only see one of them the other is still rendered even if you can't possible see it (180 degrees bend for example)

You'll most likely save approximately 40-50% on w-poly this way...

[edit]Added the pictures[/edit]

TOmekki · January 2004

D: those hallways around the hives, jezz. reminds me of the sewer in dod_kalt with all the dark corners in it. that plus the infestation... very atmospheric and spooky, nice work.

by the way, that room with the plants and the hologram thingy(?), anyway you can jump on it, dunno if it's supposed to be so.

inveigle · January 2004

Hail brother, I really like this map, the layout is unique and the atmosphere tense. I am not sure if this has been mentioned but I found that you can not access the elevator by clicking on the lower panel.. the lower panel just does not seem to work. Like I said, this might have been brought to your attention or just be part of the map. I sure am looking forward to it's future incarnations.

FrieChamp · January 2004

Tomekki: Thanks I'll fix it.

inveigle: Yeah I came across this bug before, thanks for pointing it out though, I appreciate it.

Parallax · January 2004

Personally, I only use entites for transparent objects. I don't use them for detail - then again I don't put many fiddly detail peices in my maps, instead using lots of textures and simple brushes.

-Parallax