AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--_Creep_+Jan 20 2004, 03:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (_Creep_ @ Jan 20 2004, 03:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Source code is tangible and can be possessed just like anything else. It is not merely information as you put it. Just because you cannot see or touch something in the standard way doesn't mean it is not real, exists in the real world and constitutes a tangible object that can be possessed. That is a short-sighted and naive point of view.
Therefore, the source code is something tangible that was stolen. Simple dimple.
If you signed up to the ideal that nothing tangible should be possessed and therefore should belong to everyone, then that would be different. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To suggest that it was "Stolen" suggests that Valve doesn't have it anymore, which could not be further from the truth. It was merely "distributed" meaning that now everyone can have it and benefit from any knowledge contained therein. Tell me how that is bad. How can sharing information be bad? Now if this hacker destroyed the source instead of just giving it away, then he would be morally in the wrong, but for now he's no worse than someone who shares an .mp3, although more skilled in his craft, and I would assume that a great many of us have done that in this room and not given it a second thought.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->to think that information is of less importance shows ignorance to history<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with you totally, but to think that information (in all its importance) is something to be kept secret, bottled away where noone else can benefit from it is no less ignorant.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Jan 20 2004, 11:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Jan 20 2004, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To suggest that it was "Stolen" suggests that Valve doesn't have it anymore, which could not be further from the truth. It was merely "distributed" meaning that now everyone can have it and benefit from any knowledge contained therein. Tell me how that is bad. How can sharing information be bad? Now if this hacker destroyed the source instead of just giving it away, then he would be morally in the wrong, but for now he's no worse than someone who shares an .mp3, although more skilled in his craft, and I would assume that a great many of us have done that in this room and not given it a second thought. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're talking about information that was intended to be exchanged for *money* rather than for free (same applies for the .mp3's). It's now being distributed freely, without Valve's permisson. Also, it was stolen. "Stolen" merely suggests that the source code was taken, which it was. Whether Valve still retain a copy is irrelevant, the people that stole it are still criminals.
And how is it bad you say? Well, this really gives cheaters a head start, for one, which is why Valve are now rewriting vulnerable portions of code. Also, this can tecnically constitute industrial espionage, because the source is now free for anyone to view and copy, the source that Valve worked on for so long.
<!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Jan 20 2004, 07:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Jan 20 2004, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--_Creep_+Jan 20 2004, 03:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (_Creep_ @ Jan 20 2004, 03:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Source code is tangible and can be possessed just like anything else. It is not merely information as you put it. Just because you cannot see or touch something in the standard way doesn't mean it is not real, exists in the real world and constitutes a tangible object that can be possessed. That is a short-sighted and naive point of view.
Therefore, the source code is something tangible that was stolen. Simple dimple.
If you signed up to the ideal that nothing tangible should be possessed and therefore should belong to everyone, then that would be different. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To suggest that it was "Stolen" suggests that Valve doesn't have it anymore, which could not be further from the truth. It was merely "distributed" meaning that now everyone can have it and benefit from any knowledge contained therein. Tell me how that is bad. How can sharing information be bad? Now if this hacker destroyed the source instead of just giving it away, then he would be morally in the wrong, but for now he's no worse than someone who shares an .mp3, although more skilled in his craft, and I would assume that a great many of us have done that in this room and not given it a second thought.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->to think that information is of less importance shows ignorance to history<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with you totally, but to think that information (in all its importance) is something to be kept secret, bottled away where noone else can benefit from it is no less ignorant. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If it's nothing that can be considered theft, what the hell did they spend over three years working on? Don't be so bloody pedantic about what word you use for it. Pouring all your energy into a project and having this happen... it's worse than theft.
How can sharing information be bad? It's their livlihood. Regardless of what you believe, information <i>does</i> have a value. Programmers have to pay the bills too.
Comments like "I agree with you totally, but to think that information (in all its importance) is something to be kept secret, bottled away where noone else can benefit from it is no less ignorant" display such complete ignorance of what goes in to producing commercial games. If it makes more sense to you, stop thinking of it as information and think of it as a game - that's what it is. Software is not simply a bunch of letters. You make it sound like you can roll a bowling ball around on a keyboard for a bit to create "information", put a price on it, and lock it up like a nazi. Oh, and it's not "information" - it's "data".
And be thankful this board has a no-flame policy <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> .
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Stolen</b> v. stole, (stl) sto·len, (stln) steal·ing, steals v. tr.
1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission. 2. To get or effect surreptitiously or artfully: steal a kiss; stole the ball from an opponent. 3. To move, carry, or place surreptitiously. 4. To draw attention unexpectedly in (an entertainment), especially by being the outstanding performer: The magician's assistant stole the show with her comic antics. 5. Baseball. To advance safely to (another base) during the delivery of a pitch, without the aid of a base hit, walk, passed ball, or wild pitch. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and just incase number 1 isn't clear enough, I'll throw in this definition from the massive list of meanings from 'take' <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To appropriate for one's own or another's use or benefit; obtain by purchase; secure or buy: We always take season tickets<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it was 'appropriated' through illegal means and without permission which means it was stolen. Code is a little like art in some ways... it takes effort, time and thought. Information? sure, share that but I don't view code as information... it's more like the cogs of a machine or the lines in a drawing =P
<!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Jan 20 2004, 06:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Jan 20 2004, 06:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To suggest that it was "Stolen" suggests that Valve doesn't have it anymore, which could not be further from the truth. It was merely "distributed" meaning that now everyone can have it and benefit from any knowledge contained therein. Tell me how that is bad. How can sharing information be bad? Now if this hacker destroyed the source instead of just giving it away, then he would be morally in the wrong, but for now he's no worse than someone who shares an .mp3, although more skilled in his craft, and I would assume that a great many of us have done that in this room and not given it a second thought.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think its probably copyright infringement or something as opposed to theft. To all intents and purposes, its theft. I'm sure if Valve were happy to distribute the source code, they would have developed HL2 as an open source project. They didn't.
How can sharing information be bad ? Let me give you some examples. What about distributing to the world the locations of the US nuclear submarine ? I'm sure there will be some countries that would benefit from the sharing of this information. How about your medical or court records ? Surely, all I would be doing would be "merely distributing" information.
Who benefits from the source code distribution ? Cheaters for starters. Valve's competitors too.
Sharing information is not all about giving everyone the right to open information. There are valid reasons for hiding information. For example: personal privacy, national security, economic reasons.
Anyway, back on topic. I am glad they've got this person, if it is the right person. One point though. I hope they don't throw the book at him disproportionally just to make a point.
<!--QuoteBegin--Testament+Jan 19 2004, 07:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Testament @ Jan 19 2004, 07:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Mullet+Jan 20 2004, 12:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mullet @ Jan 20 2004, 12:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (on a side note: <a href='http://www.gamestop.com' target='_blank'>Gamestop</a> says HL2 will be released sometime around march....PRE ORDER NOW!!!!!11) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Amusingly, I got my money back on my HL2 preorder a week before the HL2 "alpha" was released to the public. I still don't plan on buying HL2 until at least two good mods are out. So probably once HL2 has been out for at least 6 months. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You so solly.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Insane+Jan 20 2004, 06:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insane @ Jan 20 2004, 06:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're talking about information that was intended to be exchanged for *money* rather than for free (same applies for the .mp3's). It's now being distributed freely, without Valve's permisson. Also, it was stolen. "Stolen" merely suggests that the source code was taken, which it was. Whether Valve still retain a copy is irrelevant, the people that stole it are still criminals.
And how is it bad you say? Well, this really gives cheaters a head start, for one, which is why Valve are now rewriting vulnerable portions of code. Also, this can tecnically constitute industrial espionage, because the source is now free for anyone to view and copy, the source that Valve worked on for so long.
I'd say that's pretty bad. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If Valve has to reiwrite that section of the code, wouldn't they have had to eventually anyways?If that part is vulnerable now, and it would continue to be unless they changed it, which is what they are doing. All of the things that were released by the hacker was nothing the public wasn't going to get it's grabby little hands on in a while anyways, in which case the cheaters would have gone out and found a way, that's an inevitability, and frankly one that I have no moral qualm with either. I know several peopel who made little hacks for HL and stuff for their own personal use, just for the fun of it. Not for the purposes of cheating, but just to prove that they could and to have fun in the act of making the cheats. All a cheat is a new bit of data introduced to the public. How people use it is not the cheat-maker's fault.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If it's nothing that can be considered theft, what the hell did they spend over three years working on? Don't be so bloody pedantic about what word you use for it. Pouring all your energy into a project and having this happen... it's worse than theft.
How can sharing information be bad? It's their livlihood. Regardless of what you believe, information does have a value. Programmers have to pay the bills too.
Comments like "I agree with you totally, but to think that information (in all its importance) is something to be kept secret, bottled away where noone else can benefit from it is no less ignorant" display such complete ignorance of what goes in to producing commercial games. If it makes more sense to you, stop thinking of it as information and think of it as a game - that's what it is. Software is not simply a bunch of letters. You make it sound like you can roll a bowling ball around on a keyboard for a bit to create "information", put a price on it, and lock it up like a nazi. Oh, and it's not "information" - it's "data".
And be thankful this board has a no-flame policy .<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> For someone who calls me pedantic in laguage, you seem a bit hung up on it yourself there. What did they spend 3 years working on? I'll tell you: they spent 3 years working in Half Life 2, a ga,e that at least can be considered lots of skilled code and well-made visual media, and at most art. In the case of the former it is merely information or "data" as you insist on calling it, and it is something that should be viewable by all, it belongs to society to better it and provide it with more knowledge. In the best case this game can be considered high art, in which case it belongs to society, because all art is in some way influenced by society and as such, should be used by said society as it sees fit. I don't sound like too much of a commie, do I?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How can sharing information be bad ? Let me give you some examples. What about distributing to the world the locations of the US nuclear submarine ? I'm sure there will be some countries that would benefit from the sharing of this information. How about your medical or court records ? Surely, all I would be doing would be "merely distributing" information.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If every country (and any military group not affiliated with a country) knew the whereabouts of all the other military's secret installations, all that would mean is that they aren't secret anymore. If anything it would give a military more legitimate targets if any war broke out. I see nothing bad about this. And as for records, I myself would not care if you could go out and say "Hey! Gimme the court records for Matthew Sambito (that's me)" I have nothing to hide, and frankly I can;t really think of anyone who would WANT to look at them (or any medical records either) who doesn't already have access to that kind of info.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sharing information is not all about giving everyone the right to open information. There are valid reasons for hiding information. For example: personal privacy, national security, economic reasons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Out of curiosity, what "economic reasons" are you refering to?
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
If al information was to be made open source our emonemy would compleatly colapse.
We would lose: 1) Thousands of jobs (programers would no longer be paid) 2) Stupidly large amounts of $$ in taxes (the loss of microsoft alone would seriously hurt our economey) 3) Alot of quality software.
Yes, there would still be alot of people out there making some good software for free. HOWEVER We would no longer have people whose sole job is to make software, thus alot of those people who DO make free software would lose their jobs.
Imagine if Flayra didn't have the $$ from his previous jobs (all programing as I recall). Well No Natural Selection.
nuff said.
Open source is a good thing, however for open source to exist there still has to be things that are closed source.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Thansal+Jan 20 2004, 03:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Jan 20 2004, 03:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If al information was to be made open source our emonemy would compleatly colapse. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yet another reason it would be beneficial.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
ok, so you LIKE the ocncept of riots, looting, and not being able to eat reagularly?
Hive, go and read some stuff on the great depression, Germany before durring and after WWII and alot of other things.
I for one LIKE eating, call it a wierd habit of mine (I also like having the internet, and my computer, and my video games, and electricity, and running water and alot of other things)
Look, if you WANT to know what it would be like we can arange that for you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (this would involve some large men named bruno taking all your crap and you not being alowed to do anytihng about it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->)
the collapse of the economy would only be good if there was the infrastructure in place to replace it... there isn't, so you'd just have a bit moment of complete anarchy and destruction followed by restoration of the existing system probably. Sure we'd all love to live in a utopic society where everything was free, machines did all the boring tasks and the only thing to do was the betterment of ourselves and humanity... buuuut that isn't gonna by collapsing the economy ^^;
Besides, if you were serious about advancement you'd be out getting fit as well as excercising your mind ^~
MMORPGs are games... the boring bits should already be automatic so nothing actually <b>has</b> to be macroed =3 I think it's already too macroed by letting numbers do the combat, skills and everything else almost entirely for us though =P
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Jan 20 2004, 08:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Jan 20 2004, 08:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If Valve has to reiwrite that section of the code, wouldn't they have had to eventually anyways?If that part is vulnerable now, and it would continue to be unless they changed it, which is what they are doing. All of the things that were released by the hacker was nothing the public wasn't going to get it's grabby little hands on in a while anyways, in which case the cheaters would have gone out and found a way, that's an inevitability, and frankly one that I have no moral qualm with either. I know several peopel who made little hacks for HL and stuff for their own personal use, just for the fun of it. Not for the purposes of cheating, but just to prove that they could and to have fun in the act of making the cheats. All a cheat is a new bit of data introduced to the public. How people use it is not the cheat-maker's fault. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The code is vulnerable only now that it is freely available. It would not have been freely available in normal cirumstances, and as such, there would have been no need to rewrite it.
The public <i>were not</i> going to get their hands on the source at all. Not for a while, not ever. Releasing the source to your game is not something that many developers do, and I think it's safe to say that HL2 is not open-source.
To be frank, the rest of us don't care about the fact that you or your friends don't mind cheating. The vast majority <i>do</i>, including, nay, especially Valve. Regardless of the intended use, if the hack/cheat gives the player an unfair advantage over others, it should not be publicly available, because people <i>will</i> exploit it.
I'm all for open-sourcing and the exchange of information, but only if the developer intended it to be that way. Otherwise, it <i>is</i> theft, regardless of the moral perspective of the hacker.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
I think we can all agree not to feed the troll any more <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
no one agrees with him and his arguments have no logic <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
So, gem, does that mean that we all get to play PSO forever and ever and not have to do anything else? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
So Hive, how about if you share all your bank information to the world? I could use a couple of bucks myself. I'm guessing that wouldn't bother you either. In fact, if you don't send me your bank account number right now and PIN, you're whole argument goes out the window. Heck, just send me a signed check with the amount of money in your account written on it. It has information on it that I think would be of great benefit to people. Or, if you don't have any bank info, let's hear where you keep your money. I mean, you must have money somewhere. Unless, you stole a computer and hacked into a network to have free internet. In which case, you should make that information available. That information on how you live without money would be interesting as well. Come on then. Let's hear it.
aye, I was about to make that very argument, give us all your financial info, please.
You think that it is not the responsibility of the creator what is done with a creation? I'm an engineer, if something I make is used without change and it kills people you better be damned well sure that I'll be more than just upset about it. Those people's lives would be on my hands. Your friends are making cheats, the intention of those cheats is to cheat. Is it his fault, by making it and making it available, that people use those to cheat? YES.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--BigDXLT+Jan 20 2004, 06:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BigDXLT @ Jan 20 2004, 06:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So Hive, how about if you share all your bank information to the world? I could use a couple of bucks myself. I'm guessing that wouldn't bother you either. In fact, if you don't send me your bank account number right now and PIN, you're whole argument goes out the window. Heck, just send me a signed check with the amount of money in your account written on it. It has information on it that I think would be of great benefit to people. Or, if you don't have any bank info, let's hear where you keep your money. I mean, you must have money somewhere. Unless, you stole a computer and hacked into a network to have free internet. In which case, you should make that information available. That information on how you live without money would be interesting as well. Come on then. Let's hear it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey you want a big chunk of NOTHIN be my guest. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Gwahir+Jan 20 2004, 06:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gwahir @ Jan 20 2004, 06:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> with that response, you are avoiding the full question and I officially label you "troll" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, you want an answer? No, I would not give you my money, because it's something I need, and if I gave it to you, I wouldn't have it anymore. And frankly, I fail to see the comparison. Source code is a series of letters, number, and symbols. Money is small green peices of paper. Code is information, money is an out-moded object. Frankly, if it were up to me, the latter would not exist.
Oh, and BTW, this thread is the first time I've ever been called a "Troll." I fail to see how speaking my mind makes me a troll, but if having these opinions makes me a Troll, then a troll I shall be. It's fun!
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
your a troll atm b/c you just try and get a rise out of people and do this by arguing things with illogical assumptions. (note I have seen you not be a troll, just atm you are)
So, care to answer ANY of my arguments against your statments?
oh, and for the last one: Wealth is NOT money. Wealth is the ability to aquire stuff (stuff being VERY vauge here b/c it covers just about everything)
So, time is a type of wealth, so is skill so time + Skill is also a type of wealth. The product of ussing this wealth was the HL2 source code. This source code is now ANOTHER form of wealth (a much stronger form then simply time + skill)
So in stealing the source code they have stolen some of their wealth BECAUSE alot of the wealth in the HL2 code was the fact that they were the only ones who had it. So by the commision of the theft they have stolen: Welath Time Skill and ofcourse money (the large amounts of it that I left out of the equation just for simplicities sake) There are also other forms of wealth that they took away, I jsut don't feel like listing them all.
So, you think it is ok for them to steal Wealth? Ok Vine will be over shortly for your computer (I need some new parts)
Hell, Vinie and the skill/time that the hacker(s) ussed are also wealth, just not ones that socitey condones and therfore they are wrong.
so, lets see you put up counter arguments <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You know what? I actually agree that in an ideal world all information would be free.
But this isn't an ideal world, and as such we have have laws and ordinances so that someone's creative product can be registered as their own. And I think the mentioned arguement regarding financial details was referring to the fact that your PIN number and suchlike, are, that's right, information. Albeit information that allows for direct access to someone's hard-earned cash. But, strangely enough, my exact same counter-point would be that Valve stands to lose money from this also, but because their creation is halfway across the planet as opposed to their private details. We do, for example, have patents for a reason- these days, such things are applicable to non-physical commodities.
So, I'm challenging the logic of implying that one/all cases should be excluded from modern law rather than what appears to be your actual core belief, because I rather agree with it. Until we reach a eutopian pinnacle of enlightenment, we all deserve some form of reward for our work, no exceptions. We also deserve privacy.
And, to avoid me being labelled a topic-ignoring arsehole, I'll just point out that no one's to sure of this guys guilt as of yet- 'cept the guy, of course. I'd even question if this event happened exactly as stated. Still, if he is guilty- what do you expect. If he isn't- he has my sympathy for being without his own property.
I agree with you Edcrab. If people say you can take their information, as would be done in a utopia but not always even then, then you are free to take it. I will define theft as: Acquiring something without authorization to do so from the appropriate entity. example: Valves HL2 source code. Appropriate entity = Valve. So taking the Source's source code is theft so long as the person taking it was never given authorization by Valve to do so.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Thansal+Jan 20 2004, 07:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Jan 20 2004, 07:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> your a troll atm b/c you just try and get a rise out of people and do this by arguing things with illogical assumptions. (note I have seen you not be a troll, just atm you are)
So, care to answer ANY of my arguments against your statments? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I would appreciate if you would NOT question my motives, as you are in no position to tell me what I do or do not believe, and why or why not I say things. Anyway, on to the counter-arguments.
Alright, so they took the "wealth" (a rather dubious economic term if I ever heard one) of the programmers, but, you seem to be under the strange mode of thinking that when they took this source, they took it out of Gabe Newell's hands, never to be seen by him again [cut to single tear running down his cheek]. Not so, Gabe still has his code, and he's free to keep developing it, and when it is released, I would bet that any affect on sales due to the HL2 Caper would be negligable to nonexistent. I fail to see the harm. If it gets in the hands of cheaters, big whoop. Because, y'know, if it weren't for the leak of the origional Half Life source we wouldn't have any cheaters today, of course not. As for rivals using the source, if it were me, I wouldn't mind. Artists (in this case i am refering to the making of games as an art form) these days are far too touchy about keeping their work theirs and no one elses, as if they would fail completely if other people were able to use parts of their works to make their own art, it's BS. I myself have very little artistic skill, but the skill I do have I am happy to share with the world. Anything I've ever written, photoshopped, or recorded is available to all who want it to use as they please. I would of course appreciate if someone were to cite me as a source, but if not it's not big deal. I know who's it is, and that's really all that matters.
In an idealic situation (read: if I had my way) noone would have more than they needed to live a comfortable life. Someone who made games for a living would give his games to world in exchange for society to help him live. A farmer would give his food to the game maker because that is his responsibility to all members of society, and thus it would work for all members of society, whether they be producer of information or goods, but this has to start somewhere, and I believe it will start with information. Already we see that the free flow of information, copyright or not, is an inevitabilty in a technological society, it is impossible to fight.
.....wow......I really went on a schpeil there........that post probly contains more FBI key phrases than a drunken Noam Chomksy in a typing mood.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--Thansal+Jan 21 2004, 12:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Jan 21 2004, 12:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So in stealing the source code they have stolen some of their wealth BECAUSE alot of the wealth in the HL2 code was the fact that they were the only ones who had it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> quoting ones self is bad
but read it again
what you don't seem to get is the simple fact that if all information was free then intelegent people would be dirt poor and the rich would just get richer.
Remember if you wana make arguments you gota stay in the real world (YES I WOULD LIKE A UTOPIAN SOCIETY, and it will never ever hapen b/c people are gready)
So here is the deal: WHY should some one give any one something for information when they can just take it for free. So the person coming up with plans that can be duplicated (inventors, composers, programers, CGartists etc) will never see any return on their work. Some one Who can PRODUCE the thing described by the invetor (just ussing it to cover all of them) can make stupid amounts of $$ (If I can complie and destribute the code, Build the device from the plans, performe the song etc) I am the only who has something that has any value in the end.
So now comes the problem that with out motivation and/or suport the inventors can't/wont invent (If I aint getting something in return for my hours/days/years of work I aint gona do it) (or IF I was in it for the sake of art there is the problem that I can't dedicate my time to doing it, instead I have to go make assembles something)
So intellectual property can be copied, as we'll all agree. Whether or not Gabe lost what was "leaked" (note that the inverted commas are to avoid any further conversation on what the bloody event actually was) it was still leaked- and therefore anyone who views this code will have access to information that Valve quite understandably wanted to remain their own. They may not have lost it, but now potential competetion has far more direct access to what can be best described (although for want of a better term) as some form of gaming subpeona. As a budding (aka wannabe) novellist, I wouldn't be too happy if, for example, some guy strode up, grabbed five of my chapters and claimed they were his own.
The fact here is that their is the potential to cause great damage- but no possibility is a certainty, no matter how likely or unlikely. That's chaos theory for you. Let's face it- no one could use the code in their own project and get away with it- they'd be found out eventually. The real risk, in my view, other than spolier-spouting ****, is the potential for online hacks/cracks. But regardless of the legal/moral issue, I maintain that Valve has every right to be incensed over the duplication of their creation.
hive, nobody is under the false impression that valve 'lost' the code... but you don't seem to acknowledge the fact that by it being copied it's VALUE and SECURITY have been damaged. This isn't a utopian society... the hackers are going to give it out and nobody can use it to make games without having their rear-end sued off so the only people that leaves are the hackers who make cheats. Cheats shouldn't exist, especially in a silly dream-world utopian society because they're not fun for the person not using the cheat... namely, most of the gaming population. The value of many people's happiness is greater than the few so cheats are undefiably <b>bad</b>.
Therefore there's absolutely no shred of actual 'good' that comes from this silly lil escapade of stealing HL2's code. If there's no good that means it was entirely bad. The End =P
and than... in utopia, we'd be playing something way better than PSO... it's be like... PSO on crack and about 500 times larger. Everyone would have 10MB Connections or better XD
Comments
Therefore, the source code is something tangible that was stolen. Simple dimple.
If you signed up to the ideal that nothing tangible should be possessed and therefore should belong to everyone, then that would be different. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
To suggest that it was "Stolen" suggests that Valve doesn't have it anymore, which could not be further from the truth. It was merely "distributed" meaning that now everyone can have it and benefit from any knowledge contained therein. Tell me how that is bad. How can sharing information be bad? Now if this hacker destroyed the source instead of just giving it away, then he would be morally in the wrong, but for now he's no worse than someone who shares an .mp3, although more skilled in his craft, and I would assume that a great many of us have done that in this room and not given it a second thought.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->to think that information is of less importance shows ignorance to history<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you totally, but to think that information (in all its importance) is something to be kept secret, bottled away where noone else can benefit from it is no less ignorant.
You're talking about information that was intended to be exchanged for *money* rather than for free (same applies for the .mp3's). It's now being distributed freely, without Valve's permisson. Also, it was stolen. "Stolen" merely suggests that the source code was taken, which it was. Whether Valve still retain a copy is irrelevant, the people that stole it are still criminals.
And how is it bad you say? Well, this really gives cheaters a head start, for one, which is why Valve are now rewriting vulnerable portions of code. Also, this can tecnically constitute industrial espionage, because the source is now free for anyone to view and copy, the source that Valve worked on for so long.
I'd say that's pretty bad.
Therefore, the source code is something tangible that was stolen. Simple dimple.
If you signed up to the ideal that nothing tangible should be possessed and therefore should belong to everyone, then that would be different. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To suggest that it was "Stolen" suggests that Valve doesn't have it anymore, which could not be further from the truth. It was merely "distributed" meaning that now everyone can have it and benefit from any knowledge contained therein. Tell me how that is bad. How can sharing information be bad? Now if this hacker destroyed the source instead of just giving it away, then he would be morally in the wrong, but for now he's no worse than someone who shares an .mp3, although more skilled in his craft, and I would assume that a great many of us have done that in this room and not given it a second thought.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->to think that information is of less importance shows ignorance to history<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you totally, but to think that information (in all its importance) is something to be kept secret, bottled away where noone else can benefit from it is no less ignorant. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it's nothing that can be considered theft, what the hell did they spend over three years working on? Don't be so bloody pedantic about what word you use for it. Pouring all your energy into a project and having this happen... it's worse than theft.
How can sharing information be bad? It's their livlihood. Regardless of what you believe, information <i>does</i> have a value. Programmers have to pay the bills too.
Comments like "I agree with you totally, but to think that information (in all its importance) is something to be kept secret, bottled away where noone else can benefit from it is no less ignorant" display such complete ignorance of what goes in to producing commercial games. If it makes more sense to you, stop thinking of it as information and think of it as a game - that's what it is. Software is not simply a bunch of letters. You make it sound like you can roll a bowling ball around on a keyboard for a bit to create "information", put a price on it, and lock it up like a nazi. Oh, and it's not "information" - it's "data".
And be thankful this board has a no-flame policy <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> .
v. stole, (stl) sto·len, (stln) steal·ing, steals
v. tr.
1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
2. To get or effect surreptitiously or artfully: steal a kiss; stole the ball from an opponent.
3. To move, carry, or place surreptitiously.
4. To draw attention unexpectedly in (an entertainment), especially by being the outstanding performer: The magician's assistant stole the show with her comic antics.
5. Baseball. To advance safely to (another base) during the delivery of a pitch, without the aid of a base hit, walk, passed ball, or wild pitch.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and just incase number 1 isn't clear enough, I'll throw in this definition from the massive list of meanings from 'take'
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To appropriate for one's own or another's use or benefit; obtain by purchase; secure or buy: We always take season tickets<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it was 'appropriated' through illegal means and without permission which means it was stolen. Code is a little like art in some ways... it takes effort, time and thought. Information? sure, share that but I don't view code as information... it's more like the cogs of a machine or the lines in a drawing =P
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think its probably copyright infringement or something as opposed to theft. To all intents and purposes, its theft. I'm sure if Valve were happy to distribute the source code, they would have developed HL2 as an open source project. They didn't.
How can sharing information be bad ? Let me give you some examples. What about distributing to the world the locations of the US nuclear submarine ? I'm sure there will be some countries that would benefit from the sharing of this information. How about your medical or court records ? Surely, all I would be doing would be "merely distributing" information.
Who benefits from the source code distribution ? Cheaters for starters. Valve's competitors too.
Sharing information is not all about giving everyone the right to open information. There are valid reasons for hiding information. For example: personal privacy, national security, economic reasons.
Anyway, back on topic. I am glad they've got this person, if it is the right person. One point though. I hope they don't throw the book at him disproportionally just to make a point.
Amusingly, I got my money back on my HL2 preorder a week before the HL2 "alpha" was released to the public. I still don't plan on buying HL2 until at least two good mods are out. So probably once HL2 has been out for at least 6 months. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You so solly.
And how is it bad you say? Well, this really gives cheaters a head start, for one, which is why Valve are now rewriting vulnerable portions of code. Also, this can tecnically constitute industrial espionage, because the source is now free for anyone to view and copy, the source that Valve worked on for so long.
I'd say that's pretty bad. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If Valve has to reiwrite that section of the code, wouldn't they have had to eventually anyways?If that part is vulnerable now, and it would continue to be unless they changed it, which is what they are doing. All of the things that were released by the hacker was nothing the public wasn't going to get it's grabby little hands on in a while anyways, in which case the cheaters would have gone out and found a way, that's an inevitability, and frankly one that I have no moral qualm with either. I know several peopel who made little hacks for HL and stuff for their own personal use, just for the fun of it. Not for the purposes of cheating, but just to prove that they could and to have fun in the act of making the cheats. All a cheat is a new bit of data introduced to the public. How people use it is not the cheat-maker's fault.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If it's nothing that can be considered theft, what the hell did they spend over three years working on? Don't be so bloody pedantic about what word you use for it. Pouring all your energy into a project and having this happen... it's worse than theft.
How can sharing information be bad? It's their livlihood. Regardless of what you believe, information does have a value. Programmers have to pay the bills too.
Comments like "I agree with you totally, but to think that information (in all its importance) is something to be kept secret, bottled away where noone else can benefit from it is no less ignorant" display such complete ignorance of what goes in to producing commercial games. If it makes more sense to you, stop thinking of it as information and think of it as a game - that's what it is. Software is not simply a bunch of letters. You make it sound like you can roll a bowling ball around on a keyboard for a bit to create "information", put a price on it, and lock it up like a nazi. Oh, and it's not "information" - it's "data".
And be thankful this board has a no-flame policy .<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For someone who calls me pedantic in laguage, you seem a bit hung up on it yourself there.
What did they spend 3 years working on? I'll tell you: they spent 3 years working in Half Life 2, a ga,e that at least can be considered lots of skilled code and well-made visual media, and at most art. In the case of the former it is merely information or "data" as you insist on calling it, and it is something that should be viewable by all, it belongs to society to better it and provide it with more knowledge. In the best case this game can be considered high art, in which case it belongs to society, because all art is in some way influenced by society and as such, should be used by said society as it sees fit.
I don't sound like too much of a commie, do I?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How can sharing information be bad ? Let me give you some examples. What about distributing to the world the locations of the US nuclear submarine ? I'm sure there will be some countries that would benefit from the sharing of this information. How about your medical or court records ? Surely, all I would be doing would be "merely distributing" information.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If every country (and any military group not affiliated with a country) knew the whereabouts of all the other military's secret installations, all that would mean is that they aren't secret anymore. If anything it would give a military more legitimate targets if any war broke out. I see nothing bad about this. And as for records, I myself would not care if you could go out and say "Hey! Gimme the court records for Matthew Sambito (that's me)" I have nothing to hide, and frankly I can;t really think of anyone who would WANT to look at them (or any medical records either) who doesn't already have access to that kind of info.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sharing information is not all about giving everyone the right to open information. There are valid reasons for hiding information. For example: personal privacy, national security, economic reasons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Out of curiosity, what "economic reasons" are you refering to?
We would lose:
1) Thousands of jobs (programers would no longer be paid)
2) Stupidly large amounts of $$ in taxes (the loss of microsoft alone would seriously hurt our economey)
3) Alot of quality software.
Yes, there would still be alot of people out there making some good software for free.
HOWEVER
We would no longer have people whose sole job is to make software, thus alot of those people who DO make free software would lose their jobs.
Imagine if Flayra didn't have the $$ from his previous jobs (all programing as I recall). Well No Natural Selection.
nuff said.
Open source is a good thing, however for open source to exist there still has to be things that are closed source.
Yet another reason it would be beneficial.
Hive, go and read some stuff on the great depression, Germany before durring and after WWII and alot of other things.
I for one LIKE eating, call it a wierd habit of mine (I also like having the internet, and my computer, and my video games, and electricity, and running water and alot of other things)
Look, if you WANT to know what it would be like we can arange that for you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (this would involve some large men named bruno taking all your crap and you not being alowed to do anytihng about it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Sure we'd all love to live in a utopic society where everything was free, machines did all the boring tasks and the only thing to do was the betterment of ourselves and humanity... buuuut that isn't gonna by collapsing the economy ^^;
Besides, if you were serious about advancement you'd be out getting fit as well as excercising your mind ^~
I think it's already too macroed by letting numbers do the combat, skills and everything else almost entirely for us though =P
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The code is vulnerable only now that it is freely available. It would not have been freely available in normal cirumstances, and as such, there would have been no need to rewrite it.
The public <i>were not</i> going to get their hands on the source at all. Not for a while, not ever. Releasing the source to your game is not something that many developers do, and I think it's safe to say that HL2 is not open-source.
To be frank, the rest of us don't care about the fact that you or your friends don't mind cheating. The vast majority <i>do</i>, including, nay, especially Valve. Regardless of the intended use, if the hack/cheat gives the player an unfair advantage over others, it should not be publicly available, because people <i>will</i> exploit it.
I'm all for open-sourcing and the exchange of information, but only if the developer intended it to be that way. Otherwise, it <i>is</i> theft, regardless of the moral perspective of the hacker.
no one agrees with him and his arguments have no logic <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
So, gem, does that mean that we all get to play PSO forever and ever and not have to do anything else? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
You think that it is not the responsibility of the creator what is done with a creation? I'm an engineer, if something I make is used without change and it kills people you better be damned well sure that I'll be more than just upset about it. Those people's lives would be on my hands. Your friends are making cheats, the intention of those cheats is to cheat. Is it his fault, by making it and making it available, that people use those to cheat? YES.
Hey you want a big chunk of NOTHIN be my guest. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Alright, you want an answer? No, I would not give you my money, because it's something I need, and if I gave it to you, I wouldn't have it anymore. And frankly, I fail to see the comparison. Source code is a series of letters, number, and symbols. Money is small green peices of paper. Code is information, money is an out-moded object. Frankly, if it were up to me, the latter would not exist.
Oh, and BTW, this thread is the first time I've ever been called a "Troll." I fail to see how speaking my mind makes me a troll, but if having these opinions makes me a Troll, then a troll I shall be. It's fun!
(note I have seen you not be a troll, just atm you are)
So, care to answer ANY of my arguments against your statments?
oh, and for the last one:
Wealth is NOT money. Wealth is the ability to aquire stuff (stuff being VERY vauge here b/c it covers just about everything)
So, time is a type of wealth, so is skill
so time + Skill is also a type of wealth. The product of ussing this wealth was the HL2 source code.
This source code is now ANOTHER form of wealth (a much stronger form then simply time + skill)
So in stealing the source code they have stolen some of their wealth BECAUSE alot of the wealth in the HL2 code was the fact that they were the only ones who had it. So by the commision of the theft they have stolen:
Welath
Time
Skill
and ofcourse money (the large amounts of it that I left out of the equation just for simplicities sake)
There are also other forms of wealth that they took away, I jsut don't feel like listing them all.
So, you think it is ok for them to steal Wealth? Ok Vine will be over shortly for your computer (I need some new parts)
Hell, Vinie and the skill/time that the hacker(s) ussed are also wealth, just not ones that socitey condones and therfore they are wrong.
so, lets see you put up counter arguments <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Unless its true that you don't like eating.
But this isn't an ideal world, and as such we have have laws and ordinances so that someone's creative product can be registered as their own. And I think the mentioned arguement regarding financial details was referring to the fact that your PIN number and suchlike, are, that's right, information. Albeit information that allows for direct access to someone's hard-earned cash. But, strangely enough, my exact same counter-point would be that Valve stands to lose money from this also, but because their creation is halfway across the planet as opposed to their private details. We do, for example, have patents for a reason- these days, such things are applicable to non-physical commodities.
So, I'm challenging the logic of implying that one/all cases should be excluded from modern law rather than what appears to be your actual core belief, because I rather agree with it. Until we reach a eutopian pinnacle of enlightenment, we all deserve some form of reward for our work, no exceptions. We also deserve privacy.
And, to avoid me being labelled a topic-ignoring arsehole, I'll just point out that no one's to sure of this guys guilt as of yet- 'cept the guy, of course. I'd even question if this event happened exactly as stated. Still, if he is guilty- what do you expect. If he isn't- he has my sympathy for being without his own property.
simply b/c he is never seeing any of thoese computers again (probably)
I meen, Howmany of you DON'T have SOMETHING pirated on your computer ( that is technicaly enugh for the to hold it aparently)
thats his ENTIRE wellbeing right there (those were personal AND work computers)
poor bastd. (assuming this is true and what not)
I will define theft as: Acquiring something without authorization to do so from the appropriate entity.
example:
Valves HL2 source code. Appropriate entity = Valve.
So taking the Source's source code is theft so long as the person taking it was never given authorization by Valve to do so.
(note I have seen you not be a troll, just atm you are)
So, care to answer ANY of my arguments against your statments? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would appreciate if you would NOT question my motives, as you are in no position to tell me what I do or do not believe, and why or why not I say things. Anyway, on to the counter-arguments.
Alright, so they took the "wealth" (a rather dubious economic term if I ever heard one) of the programmers, but, you seem to be under the strange mode of thinking that when they took this source, they took it out of Gabe Newell's hands, never to be seen by him again [cut to single tear running down his cheek]. Not so, Gabe still has his code, and he's free to keep developing it, and when it is released, I would bet that any affect on sales due to the HL2 Caper would be negligable to nonexistent. I fail to see the harm. If it gets in the hands of cheaters, big whoop. Because, y'know, if it weren't for the leak of the origional Half Life source we wouldn't have any cheaters today, of course not. As for rivals using the source, if it were me, I wouldn't mind. Artists (in this case i am refering to the making of games as an art form) these days are far too touchy about keeping their work theirs and no one elses, as if they would fail completely if other people were able to use parts of their works to make their own art, it's BS. I myself have very little artistic skill, but the skill I do have I am happy to share with the world. Anything I've ever written, photoshopped, or recorded is available to all who want it to use as they please. I would of course appreciate if someone were to cite me as a source, but if not it's not big deal. I know who's it is, and that's really all that matters.
In an idealic situation (read: if I had my way) noone would have more than they needed to live a comfortable life. Someone who made games for a living would give his games to world in exchange for society to help him live. A farmer would give his food to the game maker because that is his responsibility to all members of society, and thus it would work for all members of society, whether they be producer of information or goods, but this has to start somewhere, and I believe it will start with information. Already we see that the free flow of information, copyright or not, is an inevitabilty in a technological society, it is impossible to fight.
.....wow......I really went on a schpeil there........that post probly contains more FBI key phrases than a drunken Noam Chomksy in a typing mood.
quoting ones self is bad
but read it again
what you don't seem to get is the simple fact that if all information was free then intelegent people would be dirt poor and the rich would just get richer.
Remember if you wana make arguments you gota stay in the real world (YES I WOULD LIKE A UTOPIAN SOCIETY, and it will never ever hapen b/c people are gready)
So here is the deal:
WHY should some one give any one something for information when they can just take it for free.
So the person coming up with plans that can be duplicated (inventors, composers, programers, CGartists etc) will never see any return on their work.
Some one Who can PRODUCE the thing described by the invetor (just ussing it to cover all of them) can make stupid amounts of $$ (If I can complie and destribute the code, Build the device from the plans, performe the song etc) I am the only who has something that has any value in the end.
So now comes the problem that with out motivation and/or suport the inventors can't/wont invent (If I aint getting something in return for my hours/days/years of work I aint gona do it) (or IF I was in it for the sake of art there is the problem that I can't dedicate my time to doing it, instead I have to go make assembles something)
Now you should see the problem.
The fact here is that their is the potential to cause great damage- but no possibility is a certainty, no matter how likely or unlikely. That's chaos theory for you. Let's face it- no one could use the code in their own project and get away with it- they'd be found out eventually. The real risk, in my view, other than spolier-spouting ****, is the potential for online hacks/cracks. But regardless of the legal/moral issue, I maintain that Valve has every right to be incensed over the duplication of their creation.
Therefore there's absolutely no shred of actual 'good' that comes from this silly lil escapade of stealing HL2's code. If there's no good that means it was entirely bad. The End =P
and than... in utopia, we'd be playing something way better than PSO... it's be like... PSO on crack and about 500 times larger. Everyone would have 10MB Connections or better XD