Marine Mid To End Game Dominance
Mintman
Join Date: 2003-05-30 Member: 16866Members
Join Date: 2003-05-30 Member: 16866Members
To admins: Ok, this is part discussion, part suggestion so feel free to move this about wherever you feel necessary.
To forum goers: This might end up being quite long, please read the entire post before going omg suyf, thanks.
Ok, I've been playing 3.0 beta for a few days now, playing way too long each day. In this time I think I've seen one alien Classic victory, and that was more due to completely incompetant marines rather than alien skill. Combat has not been as bad, but that seems to be a case of if the marines survive until they get JP/HA, then they win. This is due to the dominance that the marines have in the fire power department, it is negliable (sp) at the start of the game but as the armour and weapons upgrades go up it becomes more and more apparent.
In my eyes, they root of this problem is that the aliens just can not compete with the tech of the marines. In combat they are able to keep up fairly well with the marines. The reason for this? Multiple upgrades.
If you are going to attempt to balance the two modes using the same health levels for the aliens then I seriously believe that you need to make the method of upgrading similar. After much thought I have come up with a couple of ideas that could lead to the possibililty of multiple upgrades within Classic NS.
Quick thankyou goes here to all the people who have posted similar ideas within the S&I upon the same subject.
Method one:
You can build any chamber you like at any time, however, you can only select one upgrade from each chamber per hive. For example at hive one, if you had SC, DC and MC you could take cloaking, regeneration and silence. Whereas at hive two with the same chambers you could take cloaking, scent of fear, regen, carapace, silence and celerity.
This would make the individual aliens more powerful, but at a fairly high expense to the individual player (i.e. to get all the upgrades that were available at hive 2 would cost you 12 resources) aswell as the cost of obtaining all the chambers in the first place (minimum of 30 resources for one of each chamber, at least 60 resources to have two full upgrades or level 2 upgrades on all). This would allow for much adaptation for the aliens (which they are supposed to have but currently do not) and would also make public games less frustrating for some people who despise having a chamber other than defence first as they could have those aswell. This would also lead to seeing something other than level 3 in the upgrade count.
Method 2:
You can only build one chamber per hive, but the number of upgrades you can obtain is dependant on the number of chambers you have. For example, your team takes defence chambers for hive one. For up to 3 chambers you can only have one upgrade; 4 to 6 you can have two with your first upgrade being full and the second one using the remaining chambers; 6+ you can have 3 upgrades with the first two upgrades being full and the last one using the remaining chambers. If chambers were destroyed so that you dropped below the boundary for the number of upgrades then you would lose the last upgrade you had taken.
Again, this leads to multiple upgrades but in a different way. Currently it would cost 90 resources to get 3 full upgrades. The problems I can see with this method is that it would reinforce the DC first mindset (regeneration and carapace for 40+ resources at hive one anyone?) and that it does not have the room for adaption that the other method has.
They both cost the same amount resource wise (to be able to get 3 upgrades) though I much prefer method one myself due to the adaptability it entails. A combination of the two ideas which would allow you to build any chamber at any time but make the number of upgrades dependant on the number of chambers rather than hives is another idea. Though for the ideas where the number of upgrades are dependant on the number of chambers I believe the cost of the chambers should be dropped slightly to 8 resources or so.
I believe the implementation of one or a combination of these ideas would lead to it being much easier to balance both Classic and Combat. It could also make being an alien much more varied and therefore more fun to play.
Thankyou if you have taken the time to read this post, any constructive comments are welcome.
To forum goers: This might end up being quite long, please read the entire post before going omg suyf, thanks.
Ok, I've been playing 3.0 beta for a few days now, playing way too long each day. In this time I think I've seen one alien Classic victory, and that was more due to completely incompetant marines rather than alien skill. Combat has not been as bad, but that seems to be a case of if the marines survive until they get JP/HA, then they win. This is due to the dominance that the marines have in the fire power department, it is negliable (sp) at the start of the game but as the armour and weapons upgrades go up it becomes more and more apparent.
In my eyes, they root of this problem is that the aliens just can not compete with the tech of the marines. In combat they are able to keep up fairly well with the marines. The reason for this? Multiple upgrades.
If you are going to attempt to balance the two modes using the same health levels for the aliens then I seriously believe that you need to make the method of upgrading similar. After much thought I have come up with a couple of ideas that could lead to the possibililty of multiple upgrades within Classic NS.
Quick thankyou goes here to all the people who have posted similar ideas within the S&I upon the same subject.
Method one:
You can build any chamber you like at any time, however, you can only select one upgrade from each chamber per hive. For example at hive one, if you had SC, DC and MC you could take cloaking, regeneration and silence. Whereas at hive two with the same chambers you could take cloaking, scent of fear, regen, carapace, silence and celerity.
This would make the individual aliens more powerful, but at a fairly high expense to the individual player (i.e. to get all the upgrades that were available at hive 2 would cost you 12 resources) aswell as the cost of obtaining all the chambers in the first place (minimum of 30 resources for one of each chamber, at least 60 resources to have two full upgrades or level 2 upgrades on all). This would allow for much adaptation for the aliens (which they are supposed to have but currently do not) and would also make public games less frustrating for some people who despise having a chamber other than defence first as they could have those aswell. This would also lead to seeing something other than level 3 in the upgrade count.
Method 2:
You can only build one chamber per hive, but the number of upgrades you can obtain is dependant on the number of chambers you have. For example, your team takes defence chambers for hive one. For up to 3 chambers you can only have one upgrade; 4 to 6 you can have two with your first upgrade being full and the second one using the remaining chambers; 6+ you can have 3 upgrades with the first two upgrades being full and the last one using the remaining chambers. If chambers were destroyed so that you dropped below the boundary for the number of upgrades then you would lose the last upgrade you had taken.
Again, this leads to multiple upgrades but in a different way. Currently it would cost 90 resources to get 3 full upgrades. The problems I can see with this method is that it would reinforce the DC first mindset (regeneration and carapace for 40+ resources at hive one anyone?) and that it does not have the room for adaption that the other method has.
They both cost the same amount resource wise (to be able to get 3 upgrades) though I much prefer method one myself due to the adaptability it entails. A combination of the two ideas which would allow you to build any chamber at any time but make the number of upgrades dependant on the number of chambers rather than hives is another idea. Though for the ideas where the number of upgrades are dependant on the number of chambers I believe the cost of the chambers should be dropped slightly to 8 resources or so.
I believe the implementation of one or a combination of these ideas would lead to it being much easier to balance both Classic and Combat. It could also make being an alien much more varied and therefore more fun to play.
Thankyou if you have taken the time to read this post, any constructive comments are welcome.
Comments
i also think aliens need multiple upgrades...for an onos, you cannot go without adren cus your new stomp needs to be used LOADS if you dont wanna end up as cannonfodder, but this also leaves you slow as fk. so a celer/adren onos in classic would be better! huzzah for this idea, it gets my vote
One way I would see it better is if the Onos is boosted a bit more, and nerfed in some parts.
- Increase charge damage. Right now it isn't 'charge them and watch them get trumpled over like paper' It's more like 'I'm running over a huge lump of salt!'
- Boost stomp a little bit by making stun duration 1.5 seconds. It will be barely noticeable in game anyway, but making stomp a little bit more useful anyway.
- Increase carapace boost for Onos, making 3 hive carapace Onos VERY viable. Of course, this would need some testing to balance the armor values so they don't get VERY overpowering .
- Use a formula to check how much it is to upgrade levels and armor in regular NS. I'm not sure what to do with late-joiners though. Not to mention the formual I tried doesn't work too well because I don't think HL has any rounding functions built in it. Does it?
@ Varsity : Yes that helps, but when they already have upgraded to Lv. 2 weapons what can you do?
With DCs, carapace does squat against Lv 2 weapons.
With MCs, marines probably have res for motion tracking. Not to mention each shot that hits you is much more deadly than what it was before.
With SCs, Observatories are bound to be built en mass.
Evolve! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> But seriously, having never been able to play as an alien I can't think of anything extrordinary except keeping a hold of those RTs.
Evolve! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> But seriously, having never been able to play as an alien I can't think of anything extrordinary except keeping a hold of those RTs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, throw in those lv 2 shotguns now running around rampant on the maps makes RTs difficult to protect, and OCs can't do squat against them either unless they're all bunched into a full-fledged WoL. Even then, they can just get sieges and recycle it without any major setbacks, because they'll recieve RFK from the incoming 'backup' <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
BTW, Lv. 2 armor pretty much boosts marines survivability a lot as well :\
So yeah, good luck trying to survive with Focus if you have it because well....it isn't much of use once they get armor 1, and the only way to beat them is through teamwork h4x :\
It would work like this:
lifeform/ maxtraits
skulk/ 3
gorge/ 4
lerk/ 5
fade/ 6
onos/ 7
hives/ number of traits per chamber
1/ 1
2/ 2
3/ 3
This means at one hive an onos would still be limited to 1 upgrade, 4 upgrades at hive 2 but at 3 hives, they would be able to attain 7 upgrades. A skulk still has the same number of traits but would be able to pick them from any chamber he chooses at hive 3, for example carapace, regeneration and silence for example.
I know this seems extreme, but compare this to the power of combined arms fire and you may realise why this is a necessary counter. Of course this would in no way effect combat mode.
Same goes for fades.
This can be tested though, but it might have to be an <b>inside</b> build or the public will complain. After all, they are having too much fun to notice the 'beta' sign until it is too late.
BTW, I think this should be moved to beta to catch a little bit more attention because this is sort of relating to the new beta <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That being said, I do have two gripes:
I feel that friendly fire helps balance out marine superiority in range, seeng as there is little to no disadvantage for marines to spray-and-pray their weapons all over the screen. Marines get plenty of ammo and resupply from Comms. Friendly Fire servers are rare, and I don't have a problem playing without it. But there is one weapon that should be FF <i>no matter what</i>, and that is the Grenade Launcher. It is absolutely silly that an entire squad of marines can shoot grenades <i>at eachother</i> in order to kill aliens.
See, I don't like having grenades shot at me. If it were my choice, I would pick an LMG off the floor with my skulky little claws and snipe marines from a vent.
I understand that when I choose the alien team, I will be fighting melee 98-100% of the time. What I don't understand, is how a marine can fire a grenade at his buddy (<i>which I'm currently eating</i>), and manage to blow me up while his buddy keeps all of his own limbs? I find it a little unfair that marines and high explosive grenades can coexist with eachother, yet aliens seem to be unborn from this ability. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This next gripe is actually not really a gripe, but an observation of mine. I have been playing combat lately, since the combat-to-non combat ratio of maps is very high. It's a break from classic every now and then, and the upgrade system is <i>very fun</i>. ::applauds::
... As I think about it even more, I begin to ask myself: "Why don't aliens have anything like this in classic?"
Wait... come to think of it? The upgrade system SUCKS in classic.
It's always DMS, DMS, and more DMS!!! Everytime someone drops sensory first, it's because <i>one single person</i> wants to use "OMG cL04k h4x!", while the rest of the team doesn't. This leads to bitching and moaning, and the game is eventually lost. It's always Regen/Carapace, then Adrenaline, then sensory comes later as an added novelty (<i>or never at all, if marines relocated to a Hive</i>).
If it were up to me to design the system differently:
Aliens can only build one type of upgrade chamber per hive (<i>like now</i>). These upgrade chambers do not dictate what upgrades are available.
The amount of hives will determine how many upgrades an alien can use. Maximum of three upgrades (<i>maybe more?</i>)
Aliens can select any upgrade category at the beginning of the game, and are limited to using one upgrade per category. (<i>maybe two, depends on balancing</i>). However, these upgrades only recieve automatic levels from their cooresponding upgrade chamber. Example: <ul><li>If you build 3 defence chambers, and upgrade to Regen, you will gain lvl.3 Regen because it is a defence upgrade.
</li><li>If you build 3 defence chambers, you can still select a non-defensive upgrade like Focus or Celerity, but their levels will not be boosted by the defence chamber. They will remain at lvl.1, until their cooresponding upgrade chambers are built.
</li><li>Possible alternatives to raising upgrade levels? Maybe upgrades that you do not have chambers for, can be upgraded through spending resources? Long gestation periods? I would say by killing mariens, but that is too much like combat. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--></li></ul>
Well, that's my one cent thrown into the fray. Take it with a grain of salt. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Mintmans method 1 (more hives mean more upgrades) is good, and i quite like it
Method 2 (more chambers mean more upgrades) is interesting, but i feel it could use a little tweaking. Instead of automatically boosting the current upgrade, give the player a choice - boost current or get a new one. That way, with 3 dcs, you could have lvl 3 regen, or lvl 1 regen cara and redemp, or anything in between. I think the main importance is giving the players choice. Choice means more variety witch, hopefully, leads to more interesting games and less stalemates.
I also like Mav's idea of getting the updgrades whenever you want, but they only get boosted by thier chamber, but i feel that might be overpowered, and while it slightly removes the dependancy on hives, it doesn't give back enough choice to make it worthwhile.
Combat: Everyone can choose whatever upgrade they want!
Classic: Marines have all the upgrades they have in Combat (+commander which in this description replaces MT, Ressuply, Catalyst, Upgrades and so on) That means combat highest tech=classic highest tech
Aliens do not have that. CoOnos is almost comparable to ClOnos. But cause Charge is useless you can choose another upgrade for it. For example regen and cara. And ClOnos can't do that.
Also the other evolutions in Combat are waaaaaaay stronger than their comerades in classic due to the upgrade system.
Another thing that buggs me is that the builder unit of the aliens is very very very weak while all the marines are builders and are fairly strong. They don't need turrets to surive. Turrets help them but don't kill anything. But gorges are bound to the protective abilitys of their chambers. That what they are fighting with. And those are realy weak too... as their builders are.
Why is it unorthodox? Could you please explain why you think that. I can't see how being able to mutate an alien in up to nine concurrent ways is any different to being able to do it three times.
Well lets see.. rines get 1) wep upgrades 2) armor upgrades 3) motion tracking 4) shottys, hmgs, gls and grenade 5) ha or jp 6) medpakcs, ammo packs and cat packs
Ah well you could say Phase gates, distress beacon, area scan, sieges...
And what do aliens get.. and they get it by obtaining more hives.. rines just need res.
1) more abilities with hives 2) 1 chamber type per hive 3) better armor absorption with more hives 4) better life forms..
And now oh now I see marines getting more.. AND marines can keep their weapon upgrades (grenade too), armor upgrades and motion tracking when they die... aliens keep.. nothing else than their res. And alien upgrading takes time, marine comm can just drop stuff out of heaven and lets go again, so it's much faster too.
And something needs to be done to motion, because you can't really suprise rines when it's on and costs only 35 now.. (and aliens are all about suprising, eh?) so maybe disabling it when in you are in range of sensory chamber or when cloaked and walking?
Well my 0.01 cents.
I think sensories already block it.
The reasons for this change being beneficial are twofold:
1. It lets people use skills developed in combat revolving around the use of multiple upgrades, especially with respect to skulking and lerking.
2. Consider the classic and combat tech trees. In combat, aliens can reach a higher tech level than in classic for most lifeforms; (except for onos, but cara+regen is a big boost) the opposite is true for marines, who often end up with L2 weapons, L2 armour, HMG, resupply and JP/HA, wheras in combat they can have 3/3 upgrades, grenades, catalysts, welders, mines, etc. This change would close the gap between combat and classic and thus make balancing both of them easier.
So you can have Carpace, Focus, Silence, or something, at the begining of the game, but they will all be level one.
I'm sure someone said that, but I didn't bother to read it.
It would also be good to consider limiting how high the marines can go in their tech tree. For example, they can only chose four "upgrade" abilites. Such as level three armor, level one weapons, or level two each, or level one armor, level three weapons. Furthermore, you can limit which "advanced" technology they can have: JPs or HA. One or the other, but not both. At the very least, it would give each game a more unique role besides "build war machine, crush everything"
So you can have Carpace, Focus, Silence, or something, at the begining of the game, but they will all be level one.
I'm sure someone said that, but I didn't bother to read it.
It would also be good to consider limiting how high the marines can go in their tech tree. For example, they can only chose four "upgrade" abilites. Such as level three armor, level one weapons, or level two each, or level one armor, level three weapons. Furthermore, you can limit which "advanced" technology they can have: JPs or HA. One or the other, but not both. At the very least, it would give each game a more unique role besides "build war machine, crush everything" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't you think this idea removes structure from the game balance. It also suggests you can build as many chambers of each type as you like.
one thing that i want to say to all, rines tech tree is fine, only aliens tech tree need to be tweaked
like marines getting all this cool stuff but aliens got like.. the focus skill in the last patch. woooo
There would still be the limits of structures; what I am saying is that when you spawn, evolve, and get resouces, you can put down an OC, DC, and SC all with only one hive up. You will get all the benefits from them, but they will only be level one; when you put a second hive up, you get level two, ext.
The problem with aliens is that they have to specilize at the begining of the map, and have to expand to really become well rounded. Marines however have an easy way of speclizing, relying only on credits, and nothing with how much they expand or branch out. A team of marines can have JPs HA, HMGs, and the like, w/o leaving their base, while the aliens have to conqure 3/4 the map to get their third ability and fourth weapon.
If you allow aliens to build all chambers at the begining, but only limit their power to level one, you have rounded aliens, but not at the same capacity as you would with three hives.
BTW, the search button does work with the new forums, Ive tried it....you should too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->no i don't see this is in a evenly matched game. right know there is no way to compare an HA to an Onos, Onos are not useless but they are way easier to kill especially when you have nades. One thing that i want to see coming back is the bile bomb that kills rines and bablers.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, I stick to my statement that it depends on who you're playing with. An even game is an even game - I just finished a 72 minute game, mostly because both teams we hitting a stalemate with res towers and whatnot. The aliens ended up winning - 7 onos vs 8 HA's, and the heavies were obliterated. Stomp and devour, which left the last HA wondering where his team went. Then it became an Onos gangbang on one poor HA. With an experienced team, aliens can easily win. I would personally suggest you get to know the onos a little better, as it is more formidable than any single HA will ever be.