Ns_hera

Merkaba · February 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">Map feedback thread</div> I hope you all can enjoy the latest version of Hera. It's had a few radical changes and I personally can't easily predict how these changes will affect the game, as I'm unfortunately not able to play NS anymore (not whilst I'm living where I am, anyway).

Just saying whether its an improvement or not over the last version (it should definately be in terms of CPU usage) is enough, although more detailed feedback is more useful.

Most particularly I want to rid Hera or any large annoyances which hinder the gameplay for the release of NS 3.0, so anything in that respect should definately be reported (although I have no doubt that it will).

Anyway, enjoy.

Thanks,
Merkaba

Evo · February 2004

2 quick things on Hera:

- Some of the locations are busted ("heralocation_msewer" or whatever).

- I'm not too fond of the marine base... not the whole base specifically, but the CC is tucked away down that hall. I tried it, and you CAN fit a fully functioning base down there, but its *very* tight. And since most comms tend to build their bases within a very short distance of their CC (well, the IPs have to be nearby anyways), I think it might cause many headaches for large marine teams trying to get in and out of their base-in-a-closet <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />. I'd much rather see the CC moved back up ontop where it used to be, and chop that whole dead end off. But thats just me <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Overall though, im very impressed. You reworked a LOT of that map! I even managed to get lost once! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />.
I'm eager to see how it plays online though. It seems to have been opened up a bit, so we'll see which team capitalizes most on the new freedoms.

GJ Merk!

Kickarse · February 2004

I can only comment on about 10 minutes of playing it which means I can't say much that's useful to you at the moment. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />

My first impressions are that it looks like some very big changes have been made which is no bad thing as the old Hera was so unbalanced it couldn't be played in competitive matches. Can't yet say whether or not this one will but I hope so and it appears to be much improved over the last one, so thanks. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

typical_skeleton · February 2004

well I just ran around on it alone to look around.. can't comment on how it "plays", but...

the changes look nice. marine spawn seems much more sensical now... less like a CC in the wall in the middle of nowhere.

Archiving looks great.. I won't miss the weldable. =P

changes to general cargo look proper.

seems like the map will work a lot better now for all involved.

gopher · February 2004

You made some very nice changes to the map, and so far, after playing two matches <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />, I can't find anything to critisize, besides the "ugly" water, which looks like paint now <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Nurot · February 2004

It plays very nicely. After a fews bugs are worked out of it I think it'll ba a lot better than the old hera.

Holocaust · February 2004

The ladders around Processing aren't transparent between the bars, so you have this large dark grey texture in the middle of nowhere.

Otherwise (from 1 match) looks quite enjoyable.

UKchaos · February 2004

The new layout changes look good, i especially like the new area outside of archiving.

My main concern is the new comm chair place. Since you cant build ips outside that little alcove, it looks very skulk friendly, especially since you can drop right down from the ladder above. However a couple of turrets might make it ok, we will have to see.

Finally is it still possible to siege both vent and data from processing?

Jezpuh · February 2004

You should find a somehow to stop marines from building entire bases up on those rails in the start. Not only is the movent between those structures hard, it's also hell for early skulks (sometimes :\)

Comprox · February 2004

The Good:

- runs like a dream
- a few more nodes, means you can hold more than 2 nodes at a time now <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />
- seemed a little more balanced

The iffy:

- With no welding needed to get into cargo, and an extra hall from it going to double node. Really no need to go into fog corridor or reception except to grab the node at the start of the game, they saw little use in my games.
- Going on the above, maybe the map is a little TOO connected for marines now?
- Glass Hallway... GONE! It's not the same sexiness! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /> (yes, this has little bearing <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />)

The Bad:

- The water is pitch black when submegred as a skulk
- Like they said, with current CC placement, a bonsai base is almost a must in that little closet
- Still double siege? I thought it was gone, but I could of sworn they hit our vent hive from the spot in a game today, maybe I am crazy

And Im really not gonna touch on gameplay aspects before it gets some good playing done on it.

Fluffy_Kitten · February 2004

Just had a 'test game' with a couple of people to check on possible problems with TF ranges and such that I thought could exist after my first go on it earlier on...

First though, something that must change right now... that water. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Anyway, back on Nancy in 1.0 you could do insane things with the TF ranges, (you probably still can, I've not commanded a 3.0 Nancy game yet) and now you can do similar things with Hera. For example...

1/ Processing is still a double siege point.

Granted, you can't siege both hives from the same TF anymore, but if marines control that area they can control 2 hives.

The quickest and easiest solution I can think of is to do this to the S shaped corridor, but that still leaves the marines the ability to siege away any defence on the lower level of Ventilation from Processing.

I think the only way to truely 'fix' processing would be to move vent hive further away, but I'm assuming there's a reason that would be difficult, else it would've been 2.0's solution to the double siege from 1.0.

2/ You can siege 3 rooms, and 4 RTs with 1 TF in Reception.

This one I'm slightly more worried about, what with Reception being Heras Marine Spawn in 90% of games. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

As you can see, with that one TF you can run small turret farm along with a siege that covers about 95% of the room outside Archiving, around 85% of Holoroom, and a fair slice of Reception. Effectively giving the marines control of 4 resource points. Electrify both the RT the TF, and chuck up some turrets in reception and it's pretty much safe until the aliens get onos or a daring fade.

In the above pic I've put the siege as far away from the TF as I could, but even if you put it in the corner and surrounded it with turrets for added safety you could still control all 4 RTs in the general area.
In fact, thinking about it, if you were to put another siege cannon as far to the left in the above picture as you could, it'd probably reach Archivings RT, giving the marines the ability to siege 5 resource towers using one TF.

Sadly, soon after I'd discovered that last one the server I was on was invaded by people who didn't understand the words "don't attack, we're testing things", so there may be more such problems that I didn't find. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Other random points for consideration -

1/ The new route from marine spawn to reception seems to heavily help alien attacks on the marine base... a fade can fire off a spam of acid rockets into the new cubbyhole base area, and the moment he spies some marines coming his way duck behind the wall, blink off towards the glass bit and be round the corner perfectly safe before the marines can even reach the entry way. The same applies to lerks with spores... more so in fact, because the IPs *have* to be in that enclosed area, and spores in small, cramped bases = death.

2/ The new RT in the foggy corridor... I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think with electricitys massive range now, skulks can't walk past it without getting zapped. This might be wrong though.

3/ With Cargo no longer requiring welding in to, it feels like marines can expand too quickly... it might just be my imagination, but if I'm right Hera might have the same feeling as Eclipse does as an alien at the start of the game; there are only so many RTs on the map you can place that feel "safe".
For me anyway, if I place an RT at Triad, Station Access Alpha, Power Subjunction or Horseshoe I feel that the marines have better access to attack them than the aliens do to defend them, and with Cargo having ways into Maintaince, Holoroom AND Processing I think I'm going to feel that way about most of the RTs on Hera.
Perhaps an experiment with removing the route from Marine Spawn to Cargo, and replacing it with a route in there from the top of the stairs at Reception leading to Holoroom ?

Anyway, that's my random thoughts and crazy ideas for Hera... sorry for rambling on for ages and the big pics.

**** HUMONGOUSLY HUGE IMAGES BALEETED **** Try 640x480

CheesyPeteza · February 2004

I realise you changed the water for entity reduction. But I think you'd be better reducing entities elsewhere as I think the water really needs to be seethrough. Perhaps you could remove the revolving fan in ventilation to save entities? Constantly rotating things stop rotating in linux servers after a while anyway.

Aezay · February 2004

<a href='http://users.cybercity.dk/~bfy1097/ns/ns_hera-bug.jpg' target='_blank'>Screenshot</a> of a little visual something I found in maintenance. If you stand on the other side of it, you'll be able to see the hall of mirrors.

Lancelot · February 2004

I played a few games hera today and I came to the conclusion that the map is far to easily navigable for the marines. They can reach HOLO room without major effort and lock up archiving from there.

This distracts from the otherwise fine visuals, although I really muss the long glass hallway as it was. The MS isnt that great either, as it feels far to cramped, without being easily defended.

Definitly great is the change made to archiving hive, with res node and stuff...

mfg

Lance

Invader_Scoot · February 2004

I think the map is very nice now. Marines don't have to run a mile to get to places. And since aliens are faster they should still be able to keep up. Hera is and will always be my favorite map.

Buggy · February 2004

I havent really played it yet, but i did check it out thoroughly on my own. But my 2 cents: the map might just be marine-biased now, and the ever-popular Hera relocation should be even more profitable for marines, because theres basically 3 nodes siegable, a 6th a few yards away in cargo, the same goes for the one in archiving, and if you can keep marine start node as well (which isnt as far away now either), marines have a total of 7 res nodes if aliens dont catch on quick enough. though, it would depend on the random hive, but i think a maps bias shouldnt rely on a random matter such as starting hive.

as far as the map itself goes, it seems really fun to play, and its nicely polished now. good job

oOgA · February 2004

me and my friend played on ns_hera, both of us expereince the same thing.

in ns_hera, all the hives hav a murky watery ground. if a OC is built on it, the oc will not produce any shooting sound when enemy approaches

any structures or players that stands on the water will turn black

welthqa · February 2004

I disagree with the marine bias thing. I think the addition of the extra res nodes will show favor for aliens.

Nikon · February 2004

I disagree with the dbl siege in processing being a problem. I could not find a way to actuallty siege both archiving and vent from actually *in* processing, and if you are able to drop a siege in the S shaped hallway, have it built and gaurd it, you could just as easily drop a tf a few feet farther ahead and have 2-3 sieges there anyway. I was able however to siege everything inside vent from processing short of the hive and things place directly around it. the new hera is also EXTREMELY jp friendly, all the topside vents make movement very and quick for rines with JP but also for skulk. I do think that the siegables from here reception is a little much tho.

Novakoala · February 2004

I love Hera, but's it's not got the same feel that it once had (I think the old marine start really made the map for me). The CC tucked in the corner like that...

Is it just me, or does the outside look redder than before?

I played four games on hera and the marines won three of them. Reception and the gloomy corridor just aren't used by the marines anymore - they all run straight through the warehouse.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />

typicalskeleton · February 2004

what's wrong with that water? looks mucky and good. not see through? ::shrug:: =P

KungFuDiscoMonkey · February 2004

I haven't been able to playtest the new Hera yet but I'll comment on the few things I saw when I ran around it.

Remove the vents in the middle of the computers in the heralocations_system. I think it makes the minimap a bit confusing and would make more sense without the vents. That and I don't think the vents are necessary IMO.

I will miss the transparent water but I don't think it looks too horrible. I think I can adjust to this.

The new conectivity should help marines get around the map easier but I think you may should consider putting the weldable between ms and cargo back in. It seams to give the marines too much access too early.

I personally thought the origional MS was the best <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />. The new one feels a bit odd tucked away in a corner. I also liked the way the cc was in it's own chamber in the first two versions. It really made it look like the CC was part of the network.

I have to agree with Comprox that the sexyness of this map is a little bit less with the removal of the glass hallway. It was so origional and unique it was just awsome. When I first saw the shot of ns_hera on the readyroom and saw the outside shot with the glass hallway I was blown away.

Hera still is IMO a great map and has the most memerable locations IMO. Keep up the good work.

Off Topic - How come you can't play NS where you live? If it's because of dial up I'm on a 56K in a rural area and I can play NS on steam fine with only about a 200-300 ping.

BlueNovember · February 2004

Agreed. Bring back hera walkway!

I would rather have a higher entity count and worse performance than worse gameplay.

It just... is not the same. I will really miss being able to lock down double res and get a good turtling going. As for archiving... Sheehs. Since when did rines have problems with lifts??? Besdies, you can weld the ivy-like material at the lower entrance and just wander in. Archiving is just too open now. The moved res node also means it is far more attractive area to take early on, and is far easier to hold; even without PGs.

Hmm. Still mixed feelings.

Urd · February 2004

While in a lan game I found a large leak in ns_hera inside of Maintanence. It is located under the ramp going to the upper level on the hive side.

Alcapwn · February 2004

wow thats a HUGE LEAK! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' />

olisis · February 2004

I had a few games on it now and at first it felt a little marine sided, but after about 3 or 4 matches on it, it really seemed balanced. As long as the Aliens work as a team from the start and hinder marines long enough in a few key areas.

I like the new water, with scent of fear, regeneration, and silence, it makes a nasty ambush point for skulks.

I like the new ladder in the hive, I got so tired of having to go all the way around from the hive to the resource node back in 1.0 and 2.0.

I miss the walkway, but... oh well. I'll live.

Overall, great job!

Rokiyo · February 2004

I really really loved the old walk way, was it that neccessary to remove it?

Gah I dunno... It's a lot of big changes all at once... Feels.... Weird...

/me feels his head explode...

Enceladus · February 2004

That's not leak, that's a null texture
looks the same, but works different <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

krapht · February 2004

Please consider removing the raised platforms outside data core delta. The only way these are accessible are from the walkway above from the double node, cargo bay, and data core delta. When defending a hive its most likely that you will come from DCD: but then, to reach any marines you have to climb an exposed ladder to reach them. This proved the deciding factor in a game today, where the sieged our hive from the raised area under the vent leading to DCD, and none of our onos could safely get to them without being kill in short order. Ladder use by onos is slow, and 6-7 seconds out in the open is death. Hera in general is a bit too open now - this was fine in previous builds as it was also large, balancing marine movement speed and range. However, now that cargo is open, marines not only can get around the map very easily, it is hard for skulks to close the distance with them.

Brefl · February 2004

<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=62432' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=62432</a>

As said, rework your resource nodes. Half of them are within immediate reach of the marines, and the other half can be sieged down. (Considering the aliens have to reach half of them from 3 potential locations, this is severely unbalanced: If there's 10 nodes, marines should only have easy access to 2 or 3).

The changes IMO either look very rushed, or don't look good at all. The lift outside the marine spawn not only ruined the tactical POINT of that weldable there, but it looks quite tacky as well.

Overall I'm not too impressed. Sorry :/

Immacolata · February 2004

Guys, this is not belonging in the beta bug reports forum. Not sure how it ended up here, but I'm phasing it back to Beta Discussion. I also managed to screw up the topic somehow when I merged it with another one Uh. Look behind you, it's a three headed monkey.

/me scrams while you all look behind you

Sorry Merkaba <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> Please enjoy <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=62394' target='_blank'>this</a> thread as well.

**** PHASED ****

Ns_hera

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