Prejudice
Cronos
Join Date: 2002-10-18 Member: 1542Members
Join Date: 2002-10-18 Member: 1542Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Easy as 1, 2, 3...</div> Today I went into town and got myself a haircut.
The streets were crowded, yet something odd was happening. Wherever I stood or walked, people would clear out by a meter. In a crowded street, I alone had a whole meter of clear space one meter in front, to the sides, and behind.
I then walked into a games rental store to check for anything new. The person behind the counter, I noticed, kept eying me, as if I was going to stuff things under my shirt. As I left the the store, I noticed in the reflection of the glass that he was staring at my back.
Walking back into the street, the one meter clearing established itself once again. This time I noticed it. Why were people clearing away from me?
I could think of only one reason. My haircut. I got it cut very short, No. 2.
Conclusions? People were coming to the thought, conscious or otherwise, that I was a skinhead, or had a contagious form of cancer. I dont believe that they thought these things conciously, but rather they considered it unconcsciously.
My point? Prejudice is easier then we think. Even if we reject it outright on a concious level, we are STILL prejudiced at an unconscious level whether we like it or not.
<Insert Mental Blank Here>
Discuss.
The streets were crowded, yet something odd was happening. Wherever I stood or walked, people would clear out by a meter. In a crowded street, I alone had a whole meter of clear space one meter in front, to the sides, and behind.
I then walked into a games rental store to check for anything new. The person behind the counter, I noticed, kept eying me, as if I was going to stuff things under my shirt. As I left the the store, I noticed in the reflection of the glass that he was staring at my back.
Walking back into the street, the one meter clearing established itself once again. This time I noticed it. Why were people clearing away from me?
I could think of only one reason. My haircut. I got it cut very short, No. 2.
Conclusions? People were coming to the thought, conscious or otherwise, that I was a skinhead, or had a contagious form of cancer. I dont believe that they thought these things conciously, but rather they considered it unconcsciously.
My point? Prejudice is easier then we think. Even if we reject it outright on a concious level, we are STILL prejudiced at an unconscious level whether we like it or not.
<Insert Mental Blank Here>
Discuss.
Comments
I'm a shy person, and I it's been 2 months since I'v cut my hair. So, when I'm in a crowded place, I look down, and my hair falls down in front of my eyes, which makes me look like a junkie or a troublemaker.
Once, I was walking down the street. I wear very loose clothes, and it was rainning lightly, so I had a cape over my head. There was this guy, a buisness man, who was walking the same direction I was. At first, I didn't notice, but the man was looking backwards at me every 5 seconds. Guess he thought I was gonna mug him or something cause of the way I look. After that, I was 'playing' with him. When he slowed down, I slowed down. When he moved faster, I moved faster. Only problem is that he turned left, and I had to keep going straight.
So what do we learn? Always use the prejudice people have against you againt them. Or something like that....
Where part of the world do you live in? That is extreamlly weird. I get short haircuts all the time.
No, people are strange (older people) they think teenagers and younger people are all violent and crazy for whatever reason. It's a natural response on their part, they just inherintly think it's true (usually cause they remember how much of an arse they were when they were 18-24).
I remember being decked out in raver gear at a supermarket and an older couple literally cowered away from me when I walked by.
The reaction to weird clothes and stuff seems to be similar. I think people standing out look "confrontational" and are generally avoided because people simply don't wan't to make contact at all with other on the sub way or on the street.
Just from observing myself I know whether or not it'll be okay to hang out by someone (not that I've ever been mugged or robbed or anything). You can usually tell about people instantly, as long as you're not basing it on stereotypes.
Of course, I just generally avoid everyone on the street, because you can't trust someone fully until you know them fully...or maybe that's just me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
For example, if someone walks into class with a clown suit, do we stare? Of course! It's obvious he's making a statement about something. Is it possible he may just find clown suits comfortable? Maybe, but it's not irrational to prejudge them otherwise. It's simply playing statistics.
If someone wears a Ramones T-shirt, does that mean they're a punk fan? No, but surely it would be good guess. It's just playing statsitics, odds are he loves punk.
If someone fashions a big nazi symbol branded into their forehead, does that means he's racist? No, because the swastika can also mean that extremely old-fashioned-interpretation-that-it's-a-symbol-of-balance-and-life-and-hippie-crap. But it would be a prudent guess wouldn't it?
People do this all the time. The only real danger is when people <b>completly</b> fail to recognize other interpretations.
Frankly, I love the fact that I scare people. I've found a way of expressing myself, and they're all stuck in their self-made imaginary cubicles. Those who are willing to get close enough to get to know me are, for the most part, pleasantly surprised. And I can be fairly sure that they're not the kind of person to judge first and ask questions later, since they didn't judge me.
Which just reinforces the prejudice and does nothing to resolve the issue. If you act as if you are stalking someone, then you may as well be stalking them as the end result will be the same.
Frankly, don't get peeved that someone thinks you're about to attack them when, in fact, you're giving them every reason to believe it. You've created that image or reinforced the prejudice yourself and you only have yourself to blame.
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Could you have other features that, when combined with the No.2 buzz, makes you look a threat? I can only talk from the prospective of where I live, but a No.2 buzz in the UK is quite common place now. I have my hair cut to a No.2, but I certainly don't look a threat. I'm not overly tall or muscular (but not tiny and fat) - but you could be which could give the beholder a different view of you.
Also, could your normal behaviour have changed, since you realised that folk were giving you space, by the time you got into the shop and you were more conscious of folk looking at you which, in turn, made you over emphasis putting games back on the shelf and such?
Either that, or you could just have an unfortunate face that reads "I'm just so evil!" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Plain jumper, Boots, Jeans, I was dressed as usual. The haircut I got isnt too common though, I've seen nobody else here that has it at all. I'm also pretty sure I was my usual unimposing self.
Maybe people are noticing the haircut alone, maybe it's somekind of latent telepathy that couldnt previously get through the shock of hair that I used to have <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Still, relating to the wilder field of Prejudice itself, I remember reading an article in New Scientist of an experiment where people were flashed a black face, or a white face for a microsecond, then paired with a partner. Apparently, those that were flashed with the black face behaved in a more hostile manner then those flashed the white faces, even those that had outright rejected racist tendencies.
The test subjects, if I remember correctly, claimed to have had bad partners or something along those lines.
So, perhaps Prejudice can be subluminal, below our field of conciousness so to speak. I'll have to go googling for that article though...
Frankly, I love the fact that I scare people. I've found a way of expressing myself, and they're all stuck in their self-made imaginary cubicles. Those who are willing to get close enough to get to know me are, for the most part, pleasantly surprised. And I can be fairly sure that they're not the kind of person to judge first and ask questions later, since they didn't judge me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This always confuses me.
Why dress diferently?
It's more effort than it's worth.
People will instantly judge because you look abnormal. Frankly, I don't blame them for it either. It would be a little too arrogant on our parts to assume that others will be 100% understanding.
I just buy normal, cheap clothes, and once people get to know me they realize I'm one of the strangest persons they will ever meet.
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Yes, I can see your point on that, but it can also be completely not true. Take me for example:
I have a Bob Marly shirt, even though I hate reggue (dunno how to spell that... sorry...). I'v got like, 5 surfing shirts, which I do wear them, and I hate surf. I'm skateboard fan, and I'v only got 2 shirts which shows that.
Sometimes, people just wear the clothes because it's the only thing they have, or that they are too lazy to buy new clothes which suit their own personality (like me), or they simply don't care about the way they dress, getting the first thing that comes to their hand (me again).
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Yes, I can see your point on that, but it can also be completely not true. Take me for example:kateboard fan, and I'v only got 2 shirts which shows that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yes of course. I conceded several times that sometimes statistics do fail, and there will be mistakes. But the question is how often and is it really a problem? Making the correct decision 95% of the time while making that wrong one 5% of the time is better than doing nothing at all.
People label others a lot, which is sad because people are in general a lot different on the inside compared to their looks. It boils down to primal instinct, really.
Why do they do it? I really don't know. Why do we compare to people to standards which don't hold true? I don't know either.
It tires me to see people behave this way, but is it really there fault? I'd like to believe so.
I was on a bus one time with my friend, I didn't know I sat close to him, but obviously a bunch of young teenagers did. The conception they had was that we were ****.
Why do they do it? I really don't know. Why do we compare to people to standards which don't hold true? I don't know either.
It tires me to see people behave this way, but is it really there fault? I'd like to believe so.
I was on a bus one time with my friend, I didn't know I sat close to him, but obviously a bunch of young teenagers did. The conception they had was that we were ****.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You only get "****" when you swear or make a derogatory remark. If you swore, fair enough, but if it was a derogatory remark (as it would read) why did you feel the need to do what you dislike others doing?
and what they don't know is that having a shaved head is the most liberating and free things you can do with your body =]
if i was a chick, i would shave my head. ask sinead o'connor, and i bet she'll tell you it treats her right <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
here's my suggestion, man: spring break is coming up soon.
shave your head no.1 or lower (i shave my head w/o a clip, i guess that's a no.0)
and let your scalp tan!
then you'll be dapper AND people will appreciate the beauty of your shorn scalp.
One caveat: Don't let it burn! I am not white, but my virgin scalp was no match for the afternoon sun. And there's nothing more unappealing than a flaky scalp :/
sometimes i forget that i don't sunburn.
yes! be careful and rub sunblock into your head. you can shower it out later.
Because my paranoia about black people isn't an unfounded claim. If you don't like my suspicions, why don't you go down to the 'hood and sort it out with the brothers jacking cars every night, dealing drugs across the street, or the gang violence. Or how about going outside and having to avoid certain streets, because if you stepped on their turf, they'd come out and **** you up?
Saying you shouldn't judge someone by the way they're dressed is saying that not every black guy with that grooved haircut, prison tatoos, wearing a blood-stained wifebeater, and with a pistol tucked in the front of his pants is someone to be suspicious of, because he MIGHT just be making a statement about his inner child. Odds are, they're not. But apparently being suspicious of someone like that is 'naughty' and I should give him a hug, according to people.
If I've offended anyone, well, sorry, I guess.
This was bloody brilliant. Great post. I was going to say something like, "does everybody who runs at you screaming maniacally while wielding a blood-drenched chainsaw want to hurt you? No, but statistically it's a good bet." but I think you said it just as well.
This is the classic case against racial profiling. For example, if I were pick 3 people at random, a black guy, an asian and a cocasian, statistically the best basketball player would be the black guy. Racist? Maybe, but it's also playing statistics.
Insurance companies do this all the time. Young drivers and male drivers are charged higher premiums. Outrageous you say? Well maybe, except that these groups have a tendency to get in more accidents. But certainly not all of them.
The case against racial profiling says that a black person doesn't play basketball well because he's black, but because he's practiced. Well of course. But this value is commonly instilled in black youths.
However things get more shady when it comes to male drivers. They don't get into accidents simply because they're male but because they are.... well I don't know, more aggressive? Too much testosterone? Who knows.
But there is a correlation between being male and getting into car accidents. And for insurance companies, this is all they need to know. They don't need to know the cause. Ideally they would be able to ask "are you an aggressive person?". Then they could ask this to all applicants and get a real idea of the kinds of people that get into accidents. But that is more complicated than it sounds, and for customers seeking lower premiums, they'll lie about being aggressive if it means a lower price.
Another note: people that own red cars are also charged more. This has nothing to do with red cars causing accidents, but the types of people that buy these cars are supposed to be more careless, but no insurance company will bother asking 'are you a careless driver?' or any variant thereof.
Oddly, the same people who decry racial profiling are the ones that racial profile themselves with affirmative action. Yes there is a correlation between being black and being impoverished. But isn't that racial profiling? Shouldn't we be trying to improve <B>poor</B> people's lives rather than black peoples?
This was bloody brilliant. Great post. I was going to say something like, "does everybody who runs at you screaming maniacally while wielding a blood-drenched chainsaw want to hurt you? No, but statistically it's a good bet." but I think you said it just as well.
This is the classic case against racial profiling. For example, if I were pick 3 people at random, a black guy, an asian and a cocasian, statistically the best basketball player would be the black guy. Racist? Maybe, but it's also playing statistics.
Insurance companies do this all the time. Young drivers and male drivers are charged higher premiums. Outrageous you say? Well maybe, except that these groups have a tendency to get in more accidents. But certainly not all of them.
The case against racial profiling says that a black person doesn't play basketball well because he's black, but because he's practiced. Well of course. But this value is commonly instilled in black youths.
However things get more shady when it comes to male drivers. They don't get into accidents simply because they're male but because they are.... well I don't know, more aggressive? Too much testosterone? Who knows.
But there is a correlation between being male and getting into car accidents. And for insurance companies, this is all they need to know. They don't need to know the cause. Ideally they would be able to ask "are you an aggressive person?". Then they could ask this to all applicants and get a real idea of the kinds of people that get into accidents. But that is more complicated than it sounds, and for customers seeking lower premiums, they'll lie about being aggressive if it means a lower price.
Another note: people that own red cars are also charged more. This has nothing to do with red cars causing accidents, but the types of people that buy these cars are supposed to be more careless, but no insurance company will bother asking 'are you a careless driver?' or any variant thereof.
Oddly, the same people who decry racial profiling are the ones that racial profile themselves with affirmative action. Yes there is a correlation between being black and being impoverished. But isn't that racial profiling? Shouldn't we be trying to improve <B>poor</B> people's lives rather than black peoples? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason insurance companies are legally allowed to treat those age/sex groups different is because it has been proven through the years that there <i>is</i> a clear cut difference between the number of accidents/tickets/warrants/motorvehicle arrests/etc. of those groups and others. However, discrimination laws are in place because there is <i>no</i> clear cut difference between the <i>genetic makeup</i> of minority groups and the majority. In fact, I can site sources that show there is over 90% <i>more genetic variance</i> amongst the respective constituents of each race than there is <i>between</i> members of each category when compared across "race" lines. "Race" is a social construct that developed here in America and concurrently (roughly) in Europe in the mid-19th century to help maintain the promulgation of slavery and other discriminatory practices. There is indeed, no <i>scientific</i> data regarding humans to support the concept of "race" outside of outter appearances. That is truly sad.
Lastly, regarding your posting about "correlations," simply put, just because there is a correlation does not mean there is <i>causation</i>--that is, to say that one necessarily causes the other. That's generally the difference between saying "That dumb football player" and "Football players are dumb." One is a label for a specific without implying any normative standard to all of them--correlation without the implied causation. The second however shows how prejudice <i>implies</i> causation in the correlation without any open ground with which to maneuver one's mind (and if one says it in the locker room, one's feet as well) regarding the issue.
To some people this makes me seem very arrogant and strange simply becuase I look at people instead of glancing around dodging eye-contact. Add in the fact I come from a military family and am going to join in a few months and I am labeled a bonafide "pyscho" by most people. I admit I study weapons, martial arts, and have a love of military history, so I do not really blame people who call me these names. For a 18yr old kid, this is very strange.
I admit I carry around sterotypes in my head, I call the kid in the flowing trench coat and blue spiked hair a wacko who just wants attention. I won't walk down into the predominatly minorty sections becuase it's dangerous (they probaly are nice people, but that shooting last week makes me think reconsider a trip down there.)
Serial killers are usually in the early 20 to 40's, white, live alone, and have a bunch of other catagories to fall into. The reason that white males are usually suspect is based upon past crimes and cases commited by people who fall into this catagorie. I will probaly regret this but if you go to the Federal Berau of Statics you can look up crimes commited by minorties in the US. When something like 60% of violent crimes are commited by a group that is only 15% of the country I can see how sterotypes are feed. I just people on their actions as a person, not a race. But when confronted with numbers like this it is easy to see why some people harbor such sterotypes and why cops commit racial profiling.
Lastly, regarding your posting about "correlations," simply put, just because there is a correlation does not mean there is <i>causation</i>--that is, to say that one necessarily causes the other. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First point: Banks would like to be able to discriminate when giving out loans. Statistically, they can say with 95% confidence that blacks are less likely to pay their loans than Asians. They would never be allowed to do this, even though 19 times out of 20 giving a loan to an Asian is safer than to an African American.
Second point: Just because correlation is not causation does not mean correlative evidence is useless. Insurance companies don't care WHY men get into accidents more, they just know that they do, and that's all they need when determing the price of the premium. Causation only matters to sociologists, but not businessmen in this case.
I also enjoy my hair fairly short (I love my driver's license - I was so happy to get it, it's the only picture I'm actually smiling it, apart from school pictures...and it's more of a measured grimace at that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). Of course, it usually gets long because my mom generally refuses to cut it short, except in the summer.
It's so much easier when you don't have to comb it. Of course, I don't look anything like a neo-nazi or a skinhead...because I'm not overly muscular (actually I am, it's just hidden under a layer of fat, so it was disconcerting to someone when they tried to pick on me and figured out they could get beat down...that and my temper pumps me so full of adrenaline I can...do...stuff) - I'm usually the innocent bystander type person.
I don't enjoy my loneliness per-say, but, I'm to shy to talk to people (except on forums, because I'm a big wuss like that - despite the fact my personality stays the same...see all those elipses /\? Those are real life thought shifts <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> ).
As for racial profiling: I've had friends from every continent on Earth (..except Australia, but I've never met someone from there before...so pfffft). Despite the fact most of the hispanics in my high school stayed in little gangs and spoke little english (...hooray for ESL classes, I guess). Generally when you meet someone one on one (or maybe one on two, if they're best friends or something) it's easier to get to know someone. I also got tackled by a black kid in gym class (...7th...8th grade?); but then he was going to get in a bunch of trouble, and I figured I'd spare him the grief and just said we were playing around, and he ended up not being to bad.
Then again, in Milwaukee, right after we moved to a new street, our old neighbors were killed by a gang of black people.
My theory is: be careful on the approach (although, I'm to shy to talk to anyone that doesn't approach me first...aha), and then get to know them if they're not...not your type (double negatives are fun).