<!--QuoteBegin-Stakhanov+Feb 16 2004, 05:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov @ Feb 16 2004, 05:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It wouldn't hurt if Flayra himself took the time to post "don't worry , I still check S&I regularly" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well he hasn't quite said that... But over IRC he did say that the only reason the S&I forums exist is to keep that crap out of the other forums <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I would rather see the team balance plugin make its way into ns as a server variable. For those that dont know how it works, it starts a timer and gives you 15 seconds to switch or it will take someone and switch them. Now with the new scoreboard it could easily take the lowest scoring player and not accidentally grab the comm or someone good as technically your lowest scoring player is the worst.
<!--QuoteBegin-Revenge+Feb 17 2004, 04:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Revenge @ Feb 17 2004, 04:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...over IRC he did say that the only reason the S&I forums exist is to keep that crap out of the other forums <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In that case , the mods might edit the FAQ to add a warning to regulars in very small , blue fonts : "this forum is never checked by the devs and any suggestion posted here will have a 0% chance of being implemented , so don't bother posting constructive , well thought out ideas unless you just want to impress others" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
When it detects imbalance it could put a count-down on the screen and if the teams aren't fixed it bans 1 person at a time from the unfair team until they are even.
<!--QuoteBegin-Turkey22+Feb 17 2004, 11:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Turkey22 @ Feb 17 2004, 11:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would rather see the team balance plugin make its way into ns as a server variable. For those that dont know how it works, it starts a timer and gives you 15 seconds to switch or it will take someone and switch them. Now with the new scoreboard it could easily take the lowest scoring player and not accidentally grab the comm or someone good as technically your lowest scoring player is the worst. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> /agree
but i'd rather <b>have the server auto even teams every minute based on play time.</b> i think play time is a much better idea
Um... I'd just like to point out that in 11v1, it would be 90% reduction; it allows for up to 1 extra player. And auto concede should kick in well before then anyway
Anyway, I like this idea, as well as the suggestion to make it nerf the armour of the larger team instead. Perhaps have it randomly choose one of these for every extra player.
so lets see. situation... marines are loosing. half there team leaves like usuall. aliens get 50% damage reduction. you get the marines hiding out in there main base camping... aliens cant kill them because there damage sucks so much they cant kill any buildings etc. game going on forever. or marines do one of there breakouts and manage to do a comeback.
<!--QuoteBegin-Deadly Pencil+Mar 16 2004, 11:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Deadly Pencil @ Mar 16 2004, 11:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so lets see. situation... marines are loosing. half there team leaves like usuall. aliens get 50% damage reduction. you get the marines hiding out in there main base camping... aliens cant kill them because there damage sucks so much they cant kill any buildings etc. game going on forever. or marines do one of there breakouts and manage to do a comeback. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly, aliens get penalised for not balancing the teams.
There needs to be some kind of incentive for marines going over to aliens half way through the game, I never have a problem evening teams when they're 7 vs 4 in the aliens favor, at least I know I can go over to the other team and contribute something. Going from marine to alien half way through a game is torture, you start off with zero res and dont stand much chance as a skulk vs. upgraded marines, gimme 25 res for evening the teams and I'm happy.
If teams are unbalanced in the marines favor and I'm on marine I'd rather just F4 and get some coffee or something.
yes that is exactly the problem. people who, when they are losing, leave the game thus making it unbalanced. now you have caused that one of the aliens, possibly someone who has been playing since the start of the round, is forced to switch over to the losing team. why is he the one who has to suffer from another person's ignorance?
The reason why the original poster's idea is so good is because it doesn't force anyone to do anything. If no one on the stacked team wants to change sides, they don't have to.
And to be quite honest, by the time the game is winding up, that +/- 20% damage isn't really going to amount to much. However, the numbers are going to be important in the early game, which is exactly when you want to encourage people to even out the teams.
<!--QuoteBegin-Deacon+Feb 15 2004, 12:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Deacon @ Feb 15 2004, 12:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Retales+Feb 15 2004, 06:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Retales @ Feb 15 2004, 06:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think it has to be that difficult. Instead of damage reductions or anything like that, the stackers should be put to the opposite team than what they are stacking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. Doesn't address imbalances due to players leaving. 2. Prevents people from joining the same team as their friends.
#2 is especially irritating if you're playing in the same room as someone. Suddenly, you can't look at each other's screens or talk about the game.
This is why I like the damage thing. It's coercive, but it doesn't actually force anyone to join a particular team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. This doesn't need to be, and imho, shouldn't be fixed. As Forlorn stated, when people start dropping from a team, it's almost always because the team is losing or performing horribly. You don't reward teams for doing badly. In the rare cases where some guy and his girlfriend are playing, and they decide they'd rather be ... well, use your imagination... oh well. Just F4 and start over, it wont end your life (REALLY! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
2. ... I'm at a loss on this one. Oh Em Gee!! Two friends on the same team? The end is near... <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Come on guys... this is another non-issue.
** Please note: This post was made with a smile on my face, in a light-hearted nature, and should not be construed to be a flame, a dis, a smack-down, or otherwise rude. Thank you.
Damage modification to counter-balance stacking should only affect marine weapons because they are the less susceptible to rounding issues.
The formula should be: Damage = Damage * AlienPlayers/MarinePlayers
For example: 9 Marines vs 9 Aliens... Marine weapons do 100% (normal) damage. L0LMG does 10 damage per bullet, it takes 9 bullets to kill a skulk, 81 bullets total, 9 bullets per marine. 10 Marines vs 9 Aliens... Marine weapons do 90% (9/10) damage. L0LMG does 9 damage per bullet, it takes 10 bullets to kill a skulk, 90 bullets total, 9 bullets per marine. 8 Marines vs 9 Aliens... Marine weapons do 112.5% (9/8) damage. L0LMG does 11.25 damage per bullet, it takes 8 bullets to kill a skulk, 72 bullets total, 9 bullets per marine.
With this formula, it always take (rounding issues aside) 9 L0-LMG bullets from all marines to kill an all basic skulk alien team.
The damage modification should only apply when a marine players attacks an alien player. (Marine structures do normal damage to alien players, and marine players do normal damage to alien structures.)
The damage bonus/penality isn't enough to balance the game, mainly because there are other factors that advantage teams with more players. But it will help make the team with less players more fun to play, hence players will tend to prefer joining the team will less player thus removing the team size imbalance.
Just think about it this way: 2 marine vs 10 aliens. The marines do 500% (10/2) damage, 50 damage per LMG bullet, 100 damage per pistol bullet. Those two marines are having a blast, yet, they have little chance of winning the match. But even if the marines lose, I'm pretty sure you'd rather be one of the marines than one of the aliens.
I dunno who brought it up, but I think its a very good idea. Give the team with 2+ less people on it more res per tick.
This game is run around resources and teamwork. You need people to have teamwork and you need resource towers. I think they are inversly proportionate for this example, ie if there are less people on the team give them more resources. This way if its a 10 vs 7, there will be less gorges (in my experience this is what happens with a few exeptions)
Naturally there are some problems and I am open to critisism but I think the concept is worth playing around with.
Regards
P.S. I have never felt I needed to post about anything else
<!--QuoteBegin-Phoebus+Mar 18 2004, 06:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Phoebus @ Mar 18 2004, 06:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Damage modification to counter-balance stacking should only affect marine weapons because they are the less susceptible to rounding issues. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought about this, but figured it would all balance out with alien attacks against structures. While it would still take 2 bites to kill a marine, taking out a res tower 20-30% faster would be nice.
That being said, I think your solution addresses a more significant problem, which is that 2v5 is way more unbalanced than 12v15. I think this could be combined nicely with the auto-conceed threshold. At 1v4, the game should end. At 11v14, the game system should subtly encourage players from the larger team to either swap sides or finish the game.
I just wanted to add that I really liked some of the ideas presented here and I hope at the very least some kind of plug-in is developed so that this could be implemented on servers that agree with the concept.
<!--QuoteBegin-StormLiong+Mar 24 2004, 10:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (StormLiong @ Mar 24 2004, 10:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What happens when you have a MAJOR imbalance like 15 vs 3? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The 3 guys should just F4.
<!--QuoteBegin-StormLiong+Mar 24 2004, 10:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (StormLiong @ Mar 24 2004, 10:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What happens when you have a MAJOR imbalance like 15 vs 3?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Auto-concede is already implemented in NS. This problem has already been solved. It does not impact any of the suggestions in this post.
Comments
Well he hasn't quite said that... But over IRC he did say that the only reason the S&I forums exist is to keep that crap out of the other forums <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In that case , the mods might edit the FAQ to add a warning to regulars in very small , blue fonts : "this forum is never checked by the devs and any suggestion posted here will have a 0% chance of being implemented , so don't bother posting constructive , well thought out ideas unless you just want to impress others" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I never saw the appeal to a stackage game :confused:
When it detects imbalance it could put a count-down on the screen and if the teams aren't fixed it bans 1 person at a time from the unfair team until they are even.
/agree
but i'd rather <b>have the server auto even teams every minute based on play time.</b>
i think play time is a much better idea
100% damage reduction.....
100% damage reduction.....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um... I'd just like to point out that in 11v1, it would be 90% reduction; it allows for up to 1 extra player.
And auto concede should kick in well before then anyway
Anyway, I like this idea, as well as the suggestion to make it nerf the armour of the larger team instead. Perhaps have it randomly choose one of these for every extra player.
Exactly, aliens get penalised for not balancing the teams.
There needs to be some kind of incentive for marines going over to aliens half way through the game, I never have a problem evening teams when they're 7 vs 4 in the aliens favor, at least I know I can go over to the other team and contribute something. Going from marine to alien half way through a game is torture, you start off with zero res and dont stand much chance as a skulk vs. upgraded marines, gimme 25 res for evening the teams and I'm happy.
If teams are unbalanced in the marines favor and I'm on marine I'd rather just F4 and get some coffee or something.
And to be quite honest, by the time the game is winding up, that +/- 20% damage isn't really going to amount to much. However, the numbers are going to be important in the early game, which is exactly when you want to encourage people to even out the teams.
1. Doesn't address imbalances due to players leaving.
2. Prevents people from joining the same team as their friends.
#2 is especially irritating if you're playing in the same room as someone. Suddenly, you can't look at each other's screens or talk about the game.
This is why I like the damage thing. It's coercive, but it doesn't actually force anyone to join a particular team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. This doesn't need to be, and imho, shouldn't be fixed. As Forlorn stated, when people start dropping from a team, it's almost always because the team is losing or performing horribly. You don't reward teams for doing badly. In the rare cases where some guy and his girlfriend are playing, and they decide they'd rather be ... well, use your imagination... oh well. Just F4 and start over, it wont end your life (REALLY! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
2. ... I'm at a loss on this one. Oh Em Gee!! Two friends on the same team? The end is near... <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Come on guys... this is another non-issue.
** Please note: This post was made with a smile on my face, in a light-hearted nature, and should not be construed to be a flame, a dis, a smack-down, or otherwise rude. Thank you.
The formula should be:
Damage = Damage * AlienPlayers/MarinePlayers
For example:
9 Marines vs 9 Aliens... Marine weapons do 100% (normal) damage. L0LMG does 10 damage per bullet, it takes 9 bullets to kill a skulk, 81 bullets total, 9 bullets per marine.
10 Marines vs 9 Aliens... Marine weapons do 90% (9/10) damage. L0LMG does 9 damage per bullet, it takes 10 bullets to kill a skulk, 90 bullets total, 9 bullets per marine.
8 Marines vs 9 Aliens... Marine weapons do 112.5% (9/8) damage. L0LMG does 11.25 damage per bullet, it takes 8 bullets to kill a skulk, 72 bullets total, 9 bullets per marine.
With this formula, it always take (rounding issues aside) 9 L0-LMG bullets from all marines to kill an all basic skulk alien team.
The damage modification should only apply when a marine players attacks an alien player. (Marine structures do normal damage to alien players, and marine players do normal damage to alien structures.)
The damage bonus/penality isn't enough to balance the game, mainly because there are other factors that advantage teams with more players. But it will help make the team with less players more fun to play, hence players will tend to prefer joining the team will less player thus removing the team size imbalance.
Just think about it this way: 2 marine vs 10 aliens. The marines do 500% (10/2) damage, 50 damage per LMG bullet, 100 damage per pistol bullet.
Those two marines are having a blast, yet, they have little chance of winning the match.
But even if the marines lose, I'm pretty sure you'd rather be one of the marines than one of the aliens.
This game is run around resources and teamwork. You need people to have teamwork and you need resource towers. I think they are inversly proportionate for this example, ie if there are less people on the team give them more resources. This way if its a 10 vs 7, there will be less gorges (in my experience this is what happens with a few exeptions)
Naturally there are some problems and I am open to critisism but I think the concept is worth playing around with.
Regards
P.S. I have never felt I needed to post about anything else
Just change the respawn rates, the smaller team wouldnt respawn any faster than normal, but the team with too many people would respawn slower...
I thought about this, but figured it would all balance out with alien attacks against structures. While it would still take 2 bites to kill a marine, taking out a res tower 20-30% faster would be nice.
That being said, I think your solution addresses a more significant problem, which is that 2v5 is way more unbalanced than 12v15. I think this could be combined nicely with the auto-conceed threshold. At 1v4, the game should end. At 11v14, the game system should subtly encourage players from the larger team to either swap sides or finish the game.
The 3 guys should just F4.
Auto-concede is already implemented in NS. This problem has already been solved. It does not impact any of the suggestions in this post.
That way, these "optional" things can be left out of NS