I do like the careful CS Pushing rather than quake movements for marines. That's why I support the recoil. Just a dynamic cone of fire, really, not really recoil. The movement actually wouldn't change much from the quake style it is now to CS style, mostly because movement wouldn't affect the crosshair. The reason I'm in favor for a dynamic crosshair is that I would like to have another variable that marines have to deal with, something that mixes marine fire up a bit - it would be a bit more fun for me, and it adds a little bit more in the area of tactics to the game.
The problem is that for all that NS Marines feel like they run around way too much and way too fast, instead of carrying out careful slow advances, the Aliens <i>still</i> have them beat on the mobility score about 2 to 1. Anything that forces the marines to slow down their pushes (and by "push" I assume you mean "every time a marine walks into unknown territory that <i>may or may not</i> contain any aliens") is just going to warp the mobility advantage further in favor of the aliens.
One of the (many) things that makes NS really attractive is how dynamic it is. The battle moves across the map very quickly, with locations changing hands repreatedly and even changing in importance, where a place that was important to fight over a minute ago now doesn't matter, or vice versa. Don't sacrifice that dynamic feel just for the sake of forcing <i>one</i> side to use more earth-based squad tactics.
--Except, Cxwf, that the marines have ranged weapons and there are upgrades that can make marines more mobile and rapid offensive or more defensive and juggernaut-like on the offensive. That's where an vastly improved tech tree would come in. No offense but the tech tree (or for aliens I'm not even sure if that really qualifies as a tech tree since there are no interlaced nodes) currently is... well... it kind of sucks compared to what it <i>could</i> be!
Dynamic feel can remain <i>and</i> you can have "epic battles" at the same time. You can have a game that starts out in the first 5-8min as a covert stealth operation and near the end of the hour has evolved though the tech to become something of a war. Clever implementation FTW! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
i'd like heavy recoil in full auto and less in semi auto <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />
also i'd like an assault rifle...something i can shoot in semi auto and actually kill something!
<!--quoteo(post=1619735:date=Apr 9 2007, 03:50 AM:name=usererror)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usererror @ Apr 9 2007, 03:50 AM) [snapback]1619735[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Just curious to see what kind of recoil might be added for 'rines and aliens alike. Naturally, I'd love to see some light marines having to crouch to get the best aim from hmgs, or maybe even prone or some silly thing like that. Less recoil for heavies would seem best. Easier handling of all weapons, slower movement. Seems fair.
But I'm really curious to hear if and what the aliens will be facing for their recoil. I can't see too too much going on, but please let me know what you think. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't read any other post but I just want to say:
If Flayra thinks of you as some sort of sarcastic character, a parable even, whose suggestions embody everything that NS2 should not be, this OP will have been very productive.
Other than that, please, don't spread your leprosy to this game, keep it in your own colony (you filthy CSer <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
I see it as marines gaining accuracy as a tradeoff for moving slower. Increased zoom traded for less FOV. Since aliens are based entirely on mobility and assassinating ambushes this would trade off pretty well. If you plan to rush down a corridor with a marine "aiming" in that direction that is just stupid anyways. While the marines are aiming that way you nail them from a side angle where they can't see you.
<b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->YES TO RECOIL!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> </b> I think recoil to a point or cone is good to a point and here is pros and cons i see.
First off recoil makes it too hard to shoot, thats bs, i have played games that use the source engine including cs, and what recoil does it makes u move the mouse to comp for it, and plan where the target is going. Try to predict movements before they happen. If u have too much recoil it does make it a pain in the a$$. If I play cs enough i get tons of headshots this is a box even smaller then a sulk, now it does take less bullets, but cs has extreme recoil on some weapons.
The cone idea is fun, but i think it takes realism out of the game... Nothings better then shooting that huge gun as it bounces all over and recoils, blasting away everything in it's path. YES! When it's just a cone, it's fun but not as fun, example para in cs. Yes sorry to use cs as a reference.
Additional thoughts no recoil = ninja that jumps in base n take out 20 sulks.... yea because thats fair right? Also thats ones reason why everyone stacks marines! Too easy to kill aliens!
I think i covered my points i skimmed the thread but looked like lots of repeating hope i am not.
IF IT WAS ME: i would do this
LMG = very light recoil or very light cone, none if jp or heavy
Shotgun = heavy recoil after shot, or cone, give u time to aim before u pump for second shot, light recoil for heavys and med recoil for jps same goes with cones.
Flamethrower = If they decide to make one, liquid force recoil, which is where the weapon pushes from the force of the gas n flames coming out, same goes with cone.
GL = heavy recoil, i am sorry but if ur launching nades that size out of a weapon, there is recoil, i would say heavy recoil for light armor, light recoil for heavy armor, and med for jps. Same goes with cones
HMG = this is spos to be the bfg of ns, so i think this deserves heavy recoil if your light, and med if your jp and light if your a heavy.
Jp = Now with some weapons with heavy to med recoil or cone, i think if a jp is stationary or flying up or down not too fast, it should push them back some, this give the player a feeling of power! at the same time reducing the recoil a little.
You might think this is too complicated, maybe it is, but i think a system like this customizes your actions based on armor class and gun u have. Also it makes the commanders choices wiser, would you give that light armor a hmg this time? haha i think not! This is a game, not a 2d flash game, i want to feel like i am there blasting away that alien scum. Don't you think yelling at your comp, and push the limits as a light armor to control that hmg blasting alien blood all over? I love the idea =D just don't make it like a para in cs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Also i think walking instead of running should improve it, like most games, crouching also, but it should take time, almost like focus with the gun. Now i know i just wrote a ton, didn't mean too but here it is..
P.S. Feel free to add or take away from this, just my overall opinion. You make a game too ez, it gets boring....
<!--quoteo(post=1619974:date=Apr 10 2007, 08:04 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Apr 10 2007, 08:04 AM) [snapback]1619974[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> One of the things I love in ns is that it doesn't force people to play slow and passive because the game limits the movement. If you play aggressive and die its generally your lack of skill, gaming sense and teamwork, not because you couldn't do that. The lack of movement based recoil also makes the game more challenging because you have to use the mobility in your advantage even during firefights.
Recoil pushing your aim upwards -Why not, but does it really contribute to the game in any real way? Probably making the game a bit more difficult to newbies while the experienced players get used to a slight recoil in a few days. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Recoild does contribute to gameplay. Imagine CS without recoil.
Personally, I would like to see a SLIGHT recoil... as in less than in CS. It just feels a lot better to me when you have recoil. The LMG for example, feels like a gun shooting paintballs, I don't really feel the power in that gun at all.
MP5 style recoil might work, as movement does not impact the cone of fire (as far as I know). I do not like the idea of having recoil if it means you have to crouch, prone, walk, or stand still to get the most out of your weapon.
<!--quoteo(post=1632421:date=Jun 8 2007, 01:53 PM:name=JJJ1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JJJ1 @ Jun 8 2007, 01:53 PM) [snapback]1632421[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> MP5 style recoil might work, as movement does not impact the cone of fire (as far as I know). I do not like the idea of having recoil if it means you have to crouch, prone, walk, or stand still to get the most out of your weapon. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's pretty much how I've figured it out now. At the moment movement in fights is one of the things you can always improve and experiment. "Static position" firefights had to be real interesting to make up for the fun factor lost in movement.
<!--quoteo(post=1632388:date=Jun 8 2007, 06:51 AM:name=Exploder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Exploder @ Jun 8 2007, 06:51 AM) [snapback]1632388[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Recoild does contribute to gameplay. Imagine CS without recoil.
Personally, I would like to see a SLIGHT recoil... as in less than in CS. It just feels a lot better to me when you have recoil. The LMG for example, feels like a gun shooting paintballs, I don't really feel the power in that gun at all. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember you're talking to a forum full of people who (mostly) hate CS with a passion. You're not going to get anywhere by saying "look how awesome the recoil is in CS". <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1632421:date=Jun 8 2007, 09:53 AM:name=JJJ1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JJJ1 @ Jun 8 2007, 09:53 AM) [snapback]1632421[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> MP5 style recoil might work, as movement does not impact the cone of fire (as far as I know). I do not like the idea of having recoil if it means you have to crouch, prone, walk, or stand still to get the most out of your weapon. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont understand why people are debating this. Recoil adds nothing to the game, NS is not supposed to be a realistic game. Lets just decide that all the weapons in NS are gas powered and therefore don't have recoil.
<!--quoteo(post=1632669:date=Jun 9 2007, 01:51 PM:name=BOZO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BOZO @ Jun 9 2007, 01:51 PM) [snapback]1632669[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I dont understand why people are debating this. Recoil adds nothing to the game, NS is not supposed to be a realistic game. Lets just decide that all the weapons in NS are gas powered and therefore don't have recoil. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Recoil adds another challange to aiming besides point and click and gives a player another variable to hone his skills on, 'raising the roof' so to speak on the skill "limit" of the game. This new variable can also be affected by other outside sources aside from the marine himself. Alien spores, umbra, or other abilities could inhibit aiming and expand the cone of fire, or other environmental affects on the marine, furthering the strategy of the game.
It may not be a huge list, but recoil adds plenty for such a small portion of the game tweaked, and that's why I support it.
<!--quoteo(post=1632698:date=Jun 9 2007, 04:15 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Jun 9 2007, 04:15 PM) [snapback]1632698[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Recoil adds another challange to aiming besides point and click and gives a player another variable to hone his skills on, 'raising the roof' so to speak on the skill "limit" of the game. This new variable can also be affected by other outside sources aside from the marine himself. Alien spores, umbra, or other abilities could inhibit aiming and expand the cone of fire, or other environmental affects on the marine, furthering the strategy of the game.
It may not be a huge list, but recoil adds plenty for such a small portion of the game tweaked, and that's why I support it. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having too few elements to challenge players has never been an issue in NS. Saying we need recoil because we 'need another challenge' is ridiculous. Skilled players have always been able to separate themselves from the bad players. The question is whether or not we want to shift the emphasis away from movement based combat to trigger based combat. I certainly hope NS2 continues to emphasize movement over trigger.
<!--quoteo(post=1632698:date=Jun 9 2007, 06:15 PM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Jun 9 2007, 06:15 PM) [snapback]1632698[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Recoil adds another challange to aiming besides point and click and gives a player another variable to hone his skills on, 'raising the roof' so to speak on the skill "limit" of the game. This new variable can also be affected by other outside sources aside from the marine himself. Alien spores, umbra, or other abilities could inhibit aiming and expand the cone of fire, or other environmental affects on the marine, furthering the strategy of the game.
It may not be a huge list, but recoil adds plenty for such a small portion of the game tweaked, and that's why I support it. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Recoil doesn't add skill or add strategy. Thats why NS gun play is fun because you know what is going on, where your bullets are hitting. Recoil just adds randomness, just another factor people will blame their poor aim on. NS didn't have recoil for a reason and it should stay that way.
Well, we sort of have recoil already--thats what causes cone of fire. What we don't have is dynamic recoil. Your gun has exactly the same amount of inaccuracy all the time, on the first shot, on the last shot, while kneeling, while standing, while flying through the air if necessary.
Making your guns less accurate while moving adds nothing to the game, and very definately takes something away--mobility.
Making your cursor jerk around on screen to simulate "real" recoil also adds nothing to the game besides randomness and frustration.
Cone of fire is fine. Any sort of recoil more complicated than a single cone of fire for each weapon is just not needed. As homicide mentioned, NS has no shortage of ways for skilled players to show their dominance. Let people shoot their weapons.
Comments
One of the (many) things that makes NS really attractive is how dynamic it is. The battle moves across the map very quickly, with locations changing hands repreatedly and even changing in importance, where a place that was important to fight over a minute ago now doesn't matter, or vice versa. Don't sacrifice that dynamic feel just for the sake of forcing <i>one</i> side to use more earth-based squad tactics.
Dynamic feel can remain <i>and</i> you can have "epic battles" at the same time. You can have a game that starts out in the first 5-8min as a covert stealth operation and near the end of the hour has evolved though the tech to become something of a war. Clever implementation FTW! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
also i'd like an assault rifle...something i can shoot in semi auto and actually kill something!
Just curious to see what kind of recoil might be added for 'rines and aliens alike. Naturally, I'd love to see some light marines having to crouch to get the best aim from hmgs, or maybe even prone or some silly thing like that. Less recoil for heavies would seem best. Easier handling of all weapons, slower movement. Seems fair.
But I'm really curious to hear if and what the aliens will be facing for their recoil. I can't see too too much going on, but please let me know what you think. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't read any other post but I just want to say:
If Flayra thinks of you as some sort of sarcastic character, a parable even, whose suggestions embody everything that NS2 should not be, this OP will have been very productive.
Other than that, please, don't spread your leprosy to this game, keep it in your own colony (you filthy CSer <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
*shrug*
</b>
I think recoil to a point or cone is good to a point and here is pros and cons i see.
First off recoil makes it too hard to shoot, thats bs, i have played games that use the source engine including cs, and what recoil does it makes u move the mouse to comp for it, and plan where the target is going. Try to predict movements before they happen. If u have too much recoil it does make it a pain in the a$$.
If I play cs enough i get tons of headshots this is a box even smaller then a sulk, now it does take less bullets, but cs has extreme recoil on some weapons.
The cone idea is fun, but i think it takes realism out of the game... Nothings better then shooting that huge gun as it bounces all over and recoils, blasting away everything in it's path. YES! When it's just a cone, it's fun but not as fun, example para in cs. Yes sorry to use cs as a reference.
Additional thoughts no recoil = ninja that jumps in base n take out 20 sulks.... yea because thats fair right?
Also thats ones reason why everyone stacks marines! Too easy to kill aliens!
I think i covered my points i skimmed the thread but looked like lots of repeating hope i am not.
IF IT WAS ME: i would do this
LMG = very light recoil or very light cone, none if jp or heavy
Shotgun = heavy recoil after shot, or cone, give u time to aim before u pump for second shot, light recoil for heavys and med recoil for jps same goes with cones.
Flamethrower = If they decide to make one, liquid force recoil, which is where the weapon pushes from the force of the gas n flames coming out, same goes with cone.
GL = heavy recoil, i am sorry but if ur launching nades that size out of a weapon, there is recoil, i would say heavy recoil for light armor, light recoil for heavy armor, and med for jps. Same goes with cones
HMG = this is spos to be the bfg of ns, so i think this deserves heavy recoil if your light, and med if your jp and light if your a heavy.
Jp = Now with some weapons with heavy to med recoil or cone, i think if a jp is stationary or flying up or down not too fast, it should push them back some, this give the player a feeling of power! at the same time reducing the recoil a little.
You might think this is too complicated, maybe it is, but i think a system like this customizes your actions based on armor class and gun u have. Also it makes the commanders choices wiser, would you give that light armor a hmg this time? haha i think not! This is a game, not a 2d flash game, i want to feel like i am there blasting away that alien scum. Don't you think yelling at your comp, and push the limits as a light armor to control that hmg blasting alien blood all over? I love the idea =D just don't make it like a para in cs <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Also i think walking instead of running should improve it, like most games, crouching also, but it should take time, almost like focus with the gun. Now i know i just wrote a ton, didn't mean too but here it is..
P.S. Feel free to add or take away from this, just my overall opinion. You make a game too ez, it gets boring....
One of the things I love in ns is that it doesn't force people to play slow and passive because the game limits the movement. If you play aggressive and die its generally your lack of skill, gaming sense and teamwork, not because you couldn't do that. The lack of movement based recoil also makes the game more challenging because you have to use the mobility in your advantage even during firefights.
Recoil pushing your aim upwards -Why not, but does it really contribute to the game in any real way? Probably making the game a bit more difficult to newbies while the experienced players get used to a slight recoil in a few days.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Recoild does contribute to gameplay. Imagine CS without recoil.
Personally, I would like to see a SLIGHT recoil... as in less than in CS. It just feels a lot better to me when you have recoil. The LMG for example, feels like a gun shooting paintballs, I don't really feel the power in that gun at all.
MP5 style recoil might work, as movement does not impact the cone of fire (as far as I know). I do not like the idea of having recoil if it means you have to crouch, prone, walk, or stand still to get the most out of your weapon.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's pretty much how I've figured it out now. At the moment movement in fights is one of the things you can always improve and experiment. "Static position" firefights had to be real interesting to make up for the fun factor lost in movement.
Recoild does contribute to gameplay. Imagine CS without recoil.
Personally, I would like to see a SLIGHT recoil... as in less than in CS. It just feels a lot better to me when you have recoil. The LMG for example, feels like a gun shooting paintballs, I don't really feel the power in that gun at all.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember you're talking to a forum full of people who (mostly) hate CS with a passion. You're not going to get anywhere by saying "look how awesome the recoil is in CS". <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
MP5 style recoil might work, as movement does not impact the cone of fire (as far as I know). I do not like the idea of having recoil if it means you have to crouch, prone, walk, or stand still to get the most out of your weapon.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I'm suggesting and want.
That's what I'm suggesting and want.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DoD in space would be no fun.
mp5 recoil is affected my movement iirc
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1.5/1.6 HL1 CS MP5 cone of fire is not affected by movement.
I dont understand why people are debating this. Recoil adds nothing to the game, NS is not supposed to be a realistic game. Lets just decide that all the weapons in NS are gas powered and therefore don't have recoil.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Recoil adds another challange to aiming besides point and click and gives a player another variable to hone his skills on, 'raising the roof' so to speak on the skill "limit" of the game. This new variable can also be affected by other outside sources aside from the marine himself. Alien spores, umbra, or other abilities could inhibit aiming and expand the cone of fire, or other environmental affects on the marine, furthering the strategy of the game.
It may not be a huge list, but recoil adds plenty for such a small portion of the game tweaked, and that's why I support it.
Recoil adds another challange to aiming besides point and click and gives a player another variable to hone his skills on, 'raising the roof' so to speak on the skill "limit" of the game. This new variable can also be affected by other outside sources aside from the marine himself. Alien spores, umbra, or other abilities could inhibit aiming and expand the cone of fire, or other environmental affects on the marine, furthering the strategy of the game.
It may not be a huge list, but recoil adds plenty for such a small portion of the game tweaked, and that's why I support it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having too few elements to challenge players has never been an issue in NS. Saying we need recoil because we 'need another challenge' is ridiculous. Skilled players have always been able to separate themselves from the bad players. The question is whether or not we want to shift the emphasis away from movement based combat to trigger based combat. I certainly hope NS2 continues to emphasize movement over trigger.
Recoil adds another challange to aiming besides point and click and gives a player another variable to hone his skills on, 'raising the roof' so to speak on the skill "limit" of the game. This new variable can also be affected by other outside sources aside from the marine himself. Alien spores, umbra, or other abilities could inhibit aiming and expand the cone of fire, or other environmental affects on the marine, furthering the strategy of the game.
It may not be a huge list, but recoil adds plenty for such a small portion of the game tweaked, and that's why I support it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Recoil doesn't add skill or add strategy. Thats why NS gun play is fun because you know what is going on, where your bullets are hitting. Recoil just adds randomness, just another factor people will blame their poor aim on. NS didn't have recoil for a reason and it should stay that way.
Making your guns less accurate while moving adds nothing to the game, and very definately takes something away--mobility.
Making your cursor jerk around on screen to simulate "real" recoil also adds nothing to the game besides randomness and frustration.
Cone of fire is fine. Any sort of recoil more complicated than a single cone of fire for each weapon is just not needed. As homicide mentioned, NS has no shortage of ways for skilled players to show their dominance. Let people shoot their weapons.