fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1632785:date=Jun 10 2007, 01:13 PM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Faskalia @ Jun 10 2007, 01:13 PM) [snapback]1632785[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I really enjoyed watching.
May I suggest more lerk footage? *cough* Sublime *cough* <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cool Lerk frags are extremely rare and most (if not all) of the good ones have already been used.
Lots of footage of lerks getting owned though <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
It's frigging hard to follow what good lerks are doing. Watching lerk demo's is inclined to make you naucious if you're not used to that kind of playing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh and esj you're a legend for finding config-RedDog footage: i think that was our last ever official.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nevermind last ever official, last ever proper match together. We got owned so hard in that match it made us lollersplode <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
And yeh you can't get decent footage of sublime cause he played with 20fps so lagged like ###### xD
Music wise it was good (and yes it's not house, it's not trance, it's called 'drum and bass'), although the second track whatever it is called has already been used in probably the best cs frag movie ever (mourning walls collapse).
All in all it was a very good watch actually makes me wanna take time over making a frag video now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> And since i've lost all motivation to make a top frag movie and I doubt i'm gonna get enough personal footage before the summer is over to make 'lagga : end of an era' so I am quite tempted by the US clan scene suggestion, in fact I was thinking about asking around before I read this thread this evening. Does the ansl actually keep ahold of it's hltv demos? Cause I can't seem to find any..
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
edited June 2007
I liked the editing - there was some nice use of camera angles. There were also some good moments, but the frags were meh for the most part though. Best video so far, in the end - by far.
Pretty nice and well-edited vid, although there's a lot more pub/praccy footage in there than you said there was.
Zakj's triple pistol kill at the very end was probably my highlight, very closely followed by Phil's "Fade-nade". <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Like people said, not much lerking in there, but nice to see some pro battlegorging courtesy of Pizza and tjosan's skulking was nice. Would have been nice to see more Alien footage, most of it is yawnsome OHK shotgun kills that make it seem more like a CS reel than what NS is about. Imo most of the Marine kills happen through good com medspam and simply staying alive, whereas the good Alien kills stand out because they don't get a medspam crutch and they have to take down the rines before the red cross hordes get to their intended victim.
Oh, and Citrus is the best fade in that vid hands down.
The problem with alien frags is that barring the obvious 4man fade takedowns, alien frags overall just plain look bad. It's extremely rare to find good skulk/lerk and even to a lesser degree fade frags. Alien is all about staying alive and controlling marine pressure - you don't do that by soloing 4 shotgunners as skulk. And if you do solo 4 shotgunners as a skulk, it isn't because you played well, its because those shotgunners are f***ing terrible. That's why most alien frags don't get used. Marine frags = personal skill. Alien frags = teamwork.
<!--quoteo(post=1633194:date=Jun 13 2007, 11:38 AM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ Jun 13 2007, 11:38 AM) [snapback]1633194[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> That's why most alien frags don't get used. Marine frags = personal skill. Alien frags = teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So?
Granted there is content where 1 player kills some people in a cool way, but there sure as hell should be content of a group of aliens kill a group marines. This isn't as other games, and it should reflect movie scene aswell. Just make a movie that includes teamwork, should be easier to find that from aliens for the apparent reasons, right?
That BM video which included 2 alien teamwork was pretty fun to watch, atleast back in the day. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Not saying that you should, everyone has their own free will and such, just saying that solo killing content isnt the only thing you and other movie makers should relie on.
<!--quoteo(post=1633194:date=Jun 13 2007, 09:38 AM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ Jun 13 2007, 09:38 AM) [snapback]1633194[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The problem with alien frags is that barring the obvious 4man fade takedowns, alien frags overall just plain look bad. It's extremely rare to find good skulk/lerk and even to a lesser degree fade frags. Alien is all about staying alive and controlling marine pressure - you don't do that by soloing 4 shotgunners as skulk. And if you do solo 4 shotgunners as a skulk, it isn't because you played well, its because those shotgunners are f***ing terrible. That's why most alien frags don't get used. Marine frags = personal skill. Alien frags = teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's like saying the best goals in football (aka soccer) are the individual goals, not the ones with amazing build-up play.
And if you look at a lot of that supposed 'individual skill' footage you'll notice that: - The com is usually medspammin (=teamwork) - There is often another Marine there (so, not just individual skill =teamwork) - You can't tell how much of their aiming is down to MT having their crosshair start in the right place and tracking from there or them actually covering the doorways by initiative
Also, you could just argue that in a lot of the cases the Aliens come one by one instead of charging as a unit from multiple directions. I'd much rather see a film covering pincer movements, baiting, feint attacks, misdirection and the general skill involved in Alien movement as well as all the other intelligent plays that Aliens accomplish together than people showcasing their accuracy. That's why I think Zakj's, Pizza's, Citrus' and Phil's kills are the best on there. Pizza is doing the maximum damage to both the PG and the rines coming through it - <i>all the time</i>, Citrus just moves so well and barely misses a hit, Phil's is about causing the maximum amount of damage possible and using his whole arsenal with a bit of good jumping to close the gap for the Fade-nade, and Zakj's is like a perfect symphony between mind, feet and hands.
I'm not trying to say the other Marine kills on this video aren't good, but I think accuracy and reaction time is something that can easily be learned over time depending on your age and how many hours you put into shooters, whereas Alien kills not only depend on teamwork and more people being on the same wavelength, but also on very subtle timing, movement that creates/reduces the maximum amount of distance between you and your target with the maximum of cover, a really heightened sense of awareness (knowing when to let off a para instead of risking getting too close) and how to <i>out-think</i> the other players and be innovative. Apart from the commander, the Marine team don't really have much opportunity to be innovative and clever, whereas the speed and the momvement styles available to Aliens mean they're free to cover practically any inch of the 3D space in front of them in their own fashion. This means they'll come up with their own, unique attack patterns almost every single time, and tjosan and zharp both show how that's done in this video.
The reason that there aren't many teamplay frags in fragmovies is because ... theyre boring as hell. For example, 4 skulks rush 3 marines, marines get a couple of frags and the skulks kill all the marines. Sure it's good teamwork, rushing from different directions and baiting, but that happens <b>every single game</b>. Fragmovies aren't about showcasing average play, they're about showcasing outstanding play, which is something that you just don't get with teamwork frags. When I was choosing the footage for this movie there were loads of frags that were sent to me which were technically really good frags, but they just looked bad, thats why I didn't use them. A lot of them were teamwork frags. I hope you see where I'm coming from here.
<!--quoteo(post=1633206:date=Jun 13 2007, 11:51 AM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ Jun 13 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]1633206[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The reason that there aren't many teamplay frags in fragmovies is because ... theyre boring as hell. For example, 4 skulks rush 3 marines, marines get a couple of frags and the skulks kill all the marines. Sure it's good teamwork, rushing from different directions and baiting, but that happens <b>every single game</b>. Fragmovies aren't about showcasing average play, they're about showcasing outstanding play, which is something that you just don't get with teamwork frags. When I was choosing the footage for this movie there were loads of frags that were sent to me which were technically really good frags, but they just looked bad, thats why I didn't use them. A lot of them were teamwork frags. I hope you see where I'm coming from here. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well most of these frags have the 'wow' factor but I wouldn't say they represent the most skilful players, necessarily. You're right, frag vids are about entertainment value and I guess (sadly) most of that comes from the Marine side if play.
I'm just going back to an earlier point about frag movies being a good way to boost NS player numbers, showing good teamwork would also do this and teach people good tactics at the same time, but I suppose that's what HLTV's for.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2007
The "frag"movie Crispy describes would be like watching paint dry. Your posts pretty much tell me how little you know about making fragmovies or playing NS in a competitive environment. It's usually best to say nothing if you know nothing, you know? I'll comment on a few select items.
<b>Crispy: <i>"That's like saying the best goals in football (aka soccer) are the individual goals, not the ones with amazing build-up play."</i></b> Terrible analogy? Comparing football goals to NS frags is like comparing rallysport times to golf holes. I see where you're trying to go with it though, but it just doesn't work that way. There's a reason why CS fragmovies don't show the players positioning themselves before the shooting starts or quake movies don't show the players running around picking up items -- it's boring to watch and it takes a long time. In a frag movie you only have a certain amount of time to put things in and it's essential that you only use the exciting parts, unless there is something extraordinary going on "behind the scenes", which there very rarely is. This is something you're gonna have to trust me on, considering I've played on the top level and you haven't.
<b>Crispy: <i>- You can't tell how much of their aiming is down to MT having their crosshair start in the right place and tracking from there or them actually covering the doorways by initiative</i> </b> Motion tracking is very rarely used, almost to the point where rushing hand grenades is a more popular strategy. I doubt there was even one clip in Radial where the players had the MT upgrade (Fananation had 0, nLorigins had 0, for comparison).
<b>Crispy: <i>"I'd much rather see a film covering pincer movements, baiting, feint attacks, misdirection and the general skill involved in Alien movement as well as all the other intelligent plays that Aliens accomplish together than people showcasing their accuracy."</i> </b> Apart from my previous "watching paint dry" and "time restraints" arguements -- are you kidding me? Have you even played in <b>one</b> 6v6 match? If you had, you would know that "pincer movements, baiting (...)" are spur of the moment occurences, usually resulting in 1 dead skulk and 1 dead marine. Not exactly enthralling frag movie material. Playing NS isn't like hovering over an overview map drawing arrows showing where your "main attax lol" is going to be. That said, there is some merit to your claim. The Exigent movie showed that skulk teamwork frags can look good, the problem is that good ones only happen in one out of twenty games.
<b>Crispy: <i>"That's why I think Zakj's, Pizza's, Citrus' and Phil's kills are the best on there. Pizza is doing the maximum damage to both the PG and the rines coming through it - all the time, Citrus just moves so well and barely misses a hit, Phil's is about causing the maximum amount of damage possible and using his whole arsenal with a bit of good jumping to close the gap for the Fade-nade, and Zakj's is like a perfect symphony between mind, feet and hands."</i> </b> This is the funniest part of your post, considering none of the frags you mention are actually amazing, although certainly fun to watch. Fragmovie material? Definitely. Best frags in the movie? Hardly. If anyone, Tane and Naxu deserve that honor. Zakj's triple pistol was against 3 skulks, one of which was on low HP, of significant less skill than him. Pizza's frag is one of the funniest frags ever, a one in billion incident, but hardly a skilled frag. Phil handnading pantsu's Fade goes in that category as well -- extremely funny, extremely lucky.
Citrus' Fade frag is probably the worst of the lot. He frags five marines, in a timely and entertaining fashion, making it good fragmovie material. However, if you actually watched what the marines are doing, or knew anything about the match it self, you'd know that it happened during a last ditch suicide rush attempt on their growing third hive. Just about all the marines he killed were out of ammo, reloading or trying to shoot the hive and unable to do damage to him. morphz' Fade frag later in the movie is by far the best display of raw Fade skill in the movie and the best frag. (Bear in mind all the players mentioned are/were excellent players, but I'm willing to bet you've never seen even one of them actually play).
<b>Crispy: <i>"(...) a really heightened sense of awareness (knowing when to let off a para instead of risking getting too close)"</i> </b> Yeah, that would make for an amazing frag movie.
:/
<b>Crispy: <i>"This means they'll come up with their own, unique attack patterns almost every single time, and tjosan and zharp both show how that's done in this video."</i> </b> tjosan, a highly skilled player, frags four players from team iceland, who barely even qualify as mid skill. That frag only happened because the marines were bad. zharp's frag is good, but a one in a million occurence. The reason why there aren't more like it in the movie, is because they are extremely rare and needle-in-a-haystack-difficult to find.
<b>Crispy: <i>"...although there's a lot more pub/praccy footage in there than you said there was."</i> </b> There was no pub footage in the movie and a grand total of 3 scenes from practices. Please stop talking.
<b>Ots: <i>"That BM video which included 2 alien teamwork was pretty fun to watch, atleast back in the day."</i> </b> It lasted about 3 minutes and consisted of two scenes, neither of which were especially amazing. I think you're just confusing nostalgic feelings with actual "goodness". If every fragmovie was like that, you'd have to make them last over an hour to show anything. :/
Judging from some of the replies some people really need to realize one thing:
Alien multi-frags against good marines are extremely rare, because good marines actually hit their target.
If you manage to tackle 3 or 4 rines it does NOT mean that you are great and skilled. It just simply means that marines managed to miss 95% of their bullets...
Alien frags highly depend on the marines ability to miss and thus are more scare the higher you advance on playing level.
<!--quoteo(post=1633232:date=Jun 13 2007, 04:09 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fanatic @ Jun 13 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]1633232[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'm not angry, I'm aggressive. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->And you basically said that half the frags on the movie aren't even top quality and happen during opportune moments during matches - this sort of backs up what I was saying about you not really knowing just how much individual skill is involved. So, if according to you half of this stuff wasn't even that decent, why is the vid 10 minutes long and not 4?
Phil's Fade-nade wasn't down to luck it was down to him doing absolutely everything right. Luck would be if he threw the nade completely the wrong way, it bounced off a Lerk and dropped in front of the Fade.
Yes I haven't played NS competitively and I don't have the time to. But I did play for a top 5 CB clan for CS 'back in the day' which is why I find all the Marine footage so yawn. There are plenty of people with that amount of aiming skill out there, it just so happens that not many of them are playing NS. For me NS isn't about the directly transferable FPS 'skillz' that people have inherited from deathmatchy/arena-style or realistic multiplayer shooters, it's about the tactical element and the RTS and alien sides to the game.
So, I may not be a competitive NS player and I accept that I don't know the exact history behind each frag (or care), but the frag video was made for spectatorship, and a spectator is something I certainly do qualify as. I don't care if you don't value my opinion, you've put this thread in the General Discussion forum where the 'General' NS playing public hang out. If you wanted to make this video only for the competitive clique then you should have kept it to the competitive forum or just linked it to clansites. This is yet another example of competitive big-headed bigotry getting in the way of bringing NS to a wider audience, which someone has suggested that's part of what this video is about. If you wanted to put me straight on a few things you could have done it in an adult fashion, this is where your experience in NS is shown up by your inexperience in life.
I'm sort of happy you brought up my skulk scene here, because this whole thing is something that has bothered me alot. The frag movie-scene quality frags when it comes to skulk play especially, that is. Now if you look at my scene you'll notice that I should have died right away from the shotgunner, not even getting one frag - that's even what I expected when I went in, I just didn't have much of a choice other than going in hoping them not being able to aim would win us the round. Quite frankly it looked bad and it was a huge fluke.
Now this is the thing though, a skulk frag can ###### never be exciting unless the skulk is being a stupid ###### ass. Honestly, playing skulk is all about playing odds. You create as favourable a situation as your team can manage and then you roll the dice. In the end it's got very little to do with personal skill on the part of the skulk - it's all down to the marine to get in the amount of bullets needed during the time frame the skulk has tried to narrow. That's why skulks never end up in frag movies. Actually I'd like to go so far as to say that skulks generally shouldn't end up in frag movies because that means they did something stupid - regardless of whether it payed off or not.
The zack scene looked awesome and much better than me taking down some silly icelandic marines, and it was very nicely done by him, but just as any other skulk frag it was mostly down to the second marine messing things up.
That's basically how skulk-marine fights go down: the marine team forces the setting of the scene, the alien team forces the placing of the pieces, after which the marines get to use their skill to shut them down.
tjo's frag is one of the worst in the films, only beaten by Kira's shoddy aim, hivefish's equally loller skulking and citrus and mustang owning reloading, running away marines. It's a good movie, it's a shame frag movies are bound by the if it's been used too many times rule, especially in a scene that's drying up.
<!--quoteo(post=1633238:date=Jun 13 2007, 04:52 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fanatic @ Jun 13 2007, 04:52 PM) [snapback]1633238[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Trying to educate "the noobs" is such a pain in the ass.
They never want to be educated. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Fana, there's education and there's ridicule. Until you learn the difference between the two you're doing NS's competitive community a great disservice every time you open your mouth to "educate the noobs". You obviously have no problem seeing that people know and look up to you as a reknowned player, but what you don't realise is that with 'fame' (no matter how small or great) comes responsibility.
For the record, if I did have more time I would play NS competitively (to the highest level attainable), at least to see if it held my attention. But if that were the case and I felt the need to point out someone's shortcomings, I'd do it without the need to e-pleasure myself at the same time. Now frankly I don't have that time and I refuse to spend it arguing with wannabe E-gods whose only claim to fame in life is 15 seconds in a frag movie. From experience I know how enjoyable playing games competitively is, but you really need to take your hobby and yourself bit less seriously. When you've learnt that there's more to life than having your friends make videos of you playing games and posting them on the internet I'm happy to have a mature discussion with you, but until then this is all I have to say on the matter.
I did enjoy the video. It was entertaining and well put together. The lawyers that exist in a certain jumped-up e-sportsman's mind have also advised me to say that all of Fana's frags were 'teh sechs' and that he is the most mightiest e-hero of them all and should be respected by all the NS noobs out there, not because of who he is, but because of what he's done.
(Just a little bit of 'education' - I learnt it from the best)
<i>This message brought to you in the slightly-blurred-but-nevertheless-real-cos-I-told-you-so Fanavision</i>
Just a reminder guys, can we try and keep the flaming to a minimum? I'd really appreciate if you guys didn't get my thread locked. If you have something to say which you think is gonna cause the thread to get locked, please use a freaking pm k?
And I totally agree with Fana/Ben/tjo. I mean lets face it, Fana worked very closely with me on this movie in terms of feedback and advice - I think he knows what he's talking about.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1633249:date=Jun 13 2007, 06:52 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jun 13 2007, 06:52 PM) [snapback]1633249[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Fana, there's education and there's ridicule. Until you learn the difference between the two you're doing NS's competitive community a great disservice every time you open your mouth to "educate the noobs". You obviously have no problem seeing that people know and look up to you as a reknowned player, but what you don't realise is that with 'fame' (no matter how small or great) comes responsibility.
For the record, if I did have more time I would play NS competitively (to the highest level attainable), at least to see if it held my attention. But if that were the case and I felt the need to point out someone's shortcomings, I'd do it without the need to e-pleasure myself at the same time. Now frankly I don't have that time and I refuse to spend it arguing with wannabe E-gods whose only claim to fame in life is 15 seconds in a frag movie. From experience I know how enjoyable playing games competitively is, but you really need to take your hobby and yourself bit less seriously. When you've learnt that there's more to life than having your friends make videos of you playing games and posting them on the internet I'm happy to have a mature discussion with you, but until then this is all I have to say on the matter.
I did enjoy the video. It was entertaining and well put together. The lawyers that exist in a certain jumped-up e-sportsman's mind have also advised me to say that all of Fana's frags were 'teh sechs' and that he is the most mightiest e-hero of them all and should be respected by all the NS noobs out there, not because of who he is, but because of what he's done.
(Just a little bit of 'education' - I learnt it from the best)
<i>This message brought to you in the slightly-blurred-but-nevertheless-real-cos-I-told-you-so Fanavision</i> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh oh, I think he's getting angry.
Out of everyone posting in this thread, you seem to be the only one who cares about "what I've done", including myself. I only remember the good times and the fun I've had doing it. If you're too shallow to come to terms with the fact that my post contained nothing but facts, humiliating as that may be for you, that's your loss.
Comments
I really enjoyed watching.
May I suggest more lerk footage? *cough* Sublime *cough*
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cool Lerk frags are extremely rare and most (if not all) of the good ones have already been used.
It's frigging hard to follow what good lerks are doing. Watching lerk demo's is inclined to make you naucious if you're not used to that kind of playing.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
was good m'key
Nevermind last ever official, last ever proper match together. We got owned so hard in that match it made us lollersplode <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
And yeh you can't get decent footage of sublime cause he played with 20fps so lagged like ###### xD
Music wise it was good (and yes it's not house, it's not trance, it's called 'drum and bass'), although the second track whatever it is called has already been used in probably the best cs frag movie ever (mourning walls collapse).
All in all it was a very good watch actually makes me wanna take time over making a frag video now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> And since i've lost all motivation to make a top frag movie and I doubt i'm gonna get enough personal footage before the summer is over to make 'lagga : end of an era' so I am quite tempted by the US clan scene suggestion, in fact I was thinking about asking around before I read this thread this evening. Does the ansl actually keep ahold of it's hltv demos? Cause I can't seem to find any..
Zakj's triple pistol kill at the very end was probably my highlight, very closely followed by Phil's "Fade-nade". <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Like people said, not much lerking in there, but nice to see some pro battlegorging courtesy of Pizza and tjosan's skulking was nice. Would have been nice to see more Alien footage, most of it is yawnsome OHK shotgun kills that make it seem more like a CS reel than what NS is about. Imo most of the Marine kills happen through good com medspam and simply staying alive, whereas the good Alien kills stand out because they don't get a medspam crutch and they have to take down the rines before the red cross hordes get to their intended victim.
Oh, and Citrus is the best fade in that vid hands down.
That's why most alien frags don't get used. Marine frags = personal skill. Alien frags = teamwork.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So?
Granted there is content where 1 player kills some people in a cool way, but there sure as hell should be content of a group of aliens kill a group marines. This isn't as other games, and it should reflect movie scene aswell. Just make a movie that includes teamwork, should be easier to find that from aliens for the apparent reasons, right?
That BM video which included 2 alien teamwork was pretty fun to watch, atleast back in the day. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Not saying that you should, everyone has their own free will and such, just saying that solo killing content isnt the only thing you and other movie makers should relie on.
The problem with alien frags is that barring the obvious 4man fade takedowns, alien frags overall just plain look bad. It's extremely rare to find good skulk/lerk and even to a lesser degree fade frags. Alien is all about staying alive and controlling marine pressure - you don't do that by soloing 4 shotgunners as skulk. And if you do solo 4 shotgunners as a skulk, it isn't because you played well, its because those shotgunners are f***ing terrible. That's why most alien frags don't get used. Marine frags = personal skill. Alien frags = teamwork.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's like saying the best goals in football (aka soccer) are the individual goals, not the ones with amazing build-up play.
And if you look at a lot of that supposed 'individual skill' footage you'll notice that:
- The com is usually medspammin (=teamwork)
- There is often another Marine there (so, not just individual skill =teamwork)
- You can't tell how much of their aiming is down to MT having their crosshair start in the right place and tracking from there or them actually covering the doorways by initiative
Also, you could just argue that in a lot of the cases the Aliens come one by one instead of charging as a unit from multiple directions. I'd much rather see a film covering pincer movements, baiting, feint attacks, misdirection and the general skill involved in Alien movement as well as all the other intelligent plays that Aliens accomplish together than people showcasing their accuracy. That's why I think Zakj's, Pizza's, Citrus' and Phil's kills are the best on there. Pizza is doing the maximum damage to both the PG and the rines coming through it - <i>all the time</i>, Citrus just moves so well and barely misses a hit, Phil's is about causing the maximum amount of damage possible and using his whole arsenal with a bit of good jumping to close the gap for the Fade-nade, and Zakj's is like a perfect symphony between mind, feet and hands.
I'm not trying to say the other Marine kills on this video aren't good, but I think accuracy and reaction time is something that can easily be learned over time depending on your age and how many hours you put into shooters, whereas Alien kills not only depend on teamwork and more people being on the same wavelength, but also on very subtle timing, movement that creates/reduces the maximum amount of distance between you and your target with the maximum of cover, a really heightened sense of awareness (knowing when to let off a para instead of risking getting too close) and how to <i>out-think</i> the other players and be innovative. Apart from the commander, the Marine team don't really have much opportunity to be innovative and clever, whereas the speed and the momvement styles available to Aliens mean they're free to cover practically any inch of the 3D space in front of them in their own fashion. This means they'll come up with their own, unique attack patterns almost every single time, and tjosan and zharp both show how that's done in this video.
The reason that there aren't many teamplay frags in fragmovies is because ... theyre boring as hell. For example, 4 skulks rush 3 marines, marines get a couple of frags and the skulks kill all the marines. Sure it's good teamwork, rushing from different directions and baiting, but that happens <b>every single game</b>. Fragmovies aren't about showcasing average play, they're about showcasing outstanding play, which is something that you just don't get with teamwork frags. When I was choosing the footage for this movie there were loads of frags that were sent to me which were technically really good frags, but they just looked bad, thats why I didn't use them. A lot of them were teamwork frags. I hope you see where I'm coming from here.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well most of these frags have the 'wow' factor but I wouldn't say they represent the most skilful players, necessarily. You're right, frag vids are about entertainment value and I guess (sadly) most of that comes from the Marine side if play.
I'm just going back to an earlier point about frag movies being a good way to boost NS player numbers, showing good teamwork would also do this and teach people good tactics at the same time, but I suppose that's what HLTV's for.
<b>Crispy: <i>"That's like saying the best goals in football (aka soccer) are the individual goals, not the ones with amazing build-up play."</i></b>
Terrible analogy? Comparing football goals to NS frags is like comparing rallysport times to golf holes. I see where you're trying to go with it though, but it just doesn't work that way. There's a reason why CS fragmovies don't show the players positioning themselves before the shooting starts or quake movies don't show the players running around picking up items -- it's boring to watch and it takes a long time. In a frag movie you only have a certain amount of time to put things in and it's essential that you only use the exciting parts, unless there is something extraordinary going on "behind the scenes", which there very rarely is. This is something you're gonna have to trust me on, considering I've played on the top level and you haven't.
<b>Crispy: <i>- You can't tell how much of their aiming is down to MT having their crosshair start in the right place and tracking from there or them actually covering the doorways by initiative</i> </b>
Motion tracking is very rarely used, almost to the point where rushing hand grenades is a more popular strategy. I doubt there was even one clip in Radial where the players had the MT upgrade (Fananation had 0, nLorigins had 0, for comparison).
<b>Crispy: <i>"I'd much rather see a film covering pincer movements, baiting, feint attacks, misdirection and the general skill involved in Alien movement as well as all the other intelligent plays that Aliens accomplish together than people showcasing their accuracy."</i> </b>
Apart from my previous "watching paint dry" and "time restraints" arguements -- are you kidding me? Have you even played in <b>one</b> 6v6 match? If you had, you would know that "pincer movements, baiting (...)" are spur of the moment occurences, usually resulting in 1 dead skulk and 1 dead marine. Not exactly enthralling frag movie material. Playing NS isn't like hovering over an overview map drawing arrows showing where your "main attax lol" is going to be. That said, there is some merit to your claim. The Exigent movie showed that skulk teamwork frags can look good, the problem is that good ones only happen in one out of twenty games.
<b>Crispy: <i>"That's why I think Zakj's, Pizza's, Citrus' and Phil's kills are the best on there. Pizza is doing the maximum damage to both the PG and the rines coming through it - all the time, Citrus just moves so well and barely misses a hit, Phil's is about causing the maximum amount of damage possible and using his whole arsenal with a bit of good jumping to close the gap for the Fade-nade, and Zakj's is like a perfect symphony between mind, feet and hands."</i> </b>
This is the funniest part of your post, considering none of the frags you mention are actually amazing, although certainly fun to watch. Fragmovie material? Definitely. Best frags in the movie? Hardly. If anyone, Tane and Naxu deserve that honor. Zakj's triple pistol was against 3 skulks, one of which was on low HP, of significant less skill than him. Pizza's frag is one of the funniest frags ever, a one in billion incident, but hardly a skilled frag. Phil handnading pantsu's Fade goes in that category as well -- extremely funny, extremely lucky.
Citrus' Fade frag is probably the worst of the lot. He frags five marines, in a timely and entertaining fashion, making it good fragmovie material. However, if you actually watched what the marines are doing, or knew anything about the match it self, you'd know that it happened during a last ditch suicide rush attempt on their growing third hive. Just about all the marines he killed were out of ammo, reloading or trying to shoot the hive and unable to do damage to him. morphz' Fade frag later in the movie is by far the best display of raw Fade skill in the movie and the best frag. (Bear in mind all the players mentioned are/were excellent players, but I'm willing to bet you've never seen even one of them actually play).
<b>Crispy: <i>"(...) a really heightened sense of awareness (knowing when to let off a para instead of risking getting too close)"</i> </b>
Yeah, that would make for an amazing frag movie.
:/
<b>Crispy: <i>"This means they'll come up with their own, unique attack patterns almost every single time, and tjosan and zharp both show how that's done in this video."</i> </b>
tjosan, a highly skilled player, frags four players from team iceland, who barely even qualify as mid skill. That frag only happened because the marines were bad. zharp's frag is good, but a one in a million occurence. The reason why there aren't more like it in the movie, is because they are extremely rare and needle-in-a-haystack-difficult to find.
<b>Crispy: <i>"...although there's a lot more pub/praccy footage in there than you said there was."</i> </b>
There was no pub footage in the movie and a grand total of 3 scenes from practices. Please stop talking.
<b>Ots: <i>"That BM video which included 2 alien teamwork was pretty fun to watch, atleast back in the day."</i> </b>
It lasted about 3 minutes and consisted of two scenes, neither of which were especially amazing. I think you're just confusing nostalgic feelings with actual "goodness". If every fragmovie was like that, you'd have to make them last over an hour to show anything. :/
Alien multi-frags against good marines are extremely rare, because good marines actually hit their target.
If you manage to tackle 3 or 4 rines it does NOT mean that you are great and skilled. It just simply means that marines managed to miss 95% of their bullets...
Alien frags highly depend on the marines ability to miss and thus are more scare the higher you advance on playing level.
"I don't rage, I emphasise"
I'm not angry, I'm aggressive.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->And you basically said that half the frags on the movie aren't even top quality and happen during opportune moments during matches - this sort of backs up what I was saying about you not really knowing just how much individual skill is involved. So, if according to you half of this stuff wasn't even that decent, why is the vid 10 minutes long and not 4?
Phil's Fade-nade wasn't down to luck it was down to him doing absolutely everything right. Luck would be if he threw the nade completely the wrong way, it bounced off a Lerk and dropped in front of the Fade.
Yes I haven't played NS competitively and I don't have the time to. But I did play for a top 5 CB clan for CS 'back in the day' which is why I find all the Marine footage so yawn. There are plenty of people with that amount of aiming skill out there, it just so happens that not many of them are playing NS. For me NS isn't about the directly transferable FPS 'skillz' that people have inherited from deathmatchy/arena-style or realistic multiplayer shooters, it's about the tactical element and the RTS and alien sides to the game.
So, I may not be a competitive NS player and I accept that I don't know the exact history behind each frag (or care), but the frag video was made for spectatorship, and a spectator is something I certainly do qualify as. I don't care if you don't value my opinion, you've put this thread in the General Discussion forum where the 'General' NS playing public hang out. If you wanted to make this video only for the competitive clique then you should have kept it to the competitive forum or just linked it to clansites. This is yet another example of competitive big-headed bigotry getting in the way of bringing NS to a wider audience, which someone has suggested that's part of what this video is about. If you wanted to put me straight on a few things you could have done it in an adult fashion, this is where your experience in NS is shown up by your inexperience in life.
They never want to be educated.
Now this is the thing though, a skulk frag can ###### never be exciting unless the skulk is being a stupid ###### ass. Honestly, playing skulk is all about playing odds. You create as favourable a situation as your team can manage and then you roll the dice. In the end it's got very little to do with personal skill on the part of the skulk - it's all down to the marine to get in the amount of bullets needed during the time frame the skulk has tried to narrow. That's why skulks never end up in frag movies. Actually I'd like to go so far as to say that skulks generally shouldn't end up in frag movies because that means they did something stupid - regardless of whether it payed off or not.
The zack scene looked awesome and much better than me taking down some silly icelandic marines, and it was very nicely done by him, but just as any other skulk frag it was mostly down to the second marine messing things up.
That's basically how skulk-marine fights go down: the marine team forces the setting of the scene, the alien team forces the placing of the pieces, after which the marines get to use their skill to shut them down.
Trying to educate "the noobs" is such a pain in the ass.
They never want to be educated.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Fana, there's education and there's ridicule. Until you learn the difference between the two you're doing NS's competitive community a great disservice every time you open your mouth to "educate the noobs". You obviously have no problem seeing that people know and look up to you as a reknowned player, but what you don't realise is that with 'fame' (no matter how small or great) comes responsibility.
For the record, if I did have more time I would play NS competitively (to the highest level attainable), at least to see if it held my attention. But if that were the case and I felt the need to point out someone's shortcomings, I'd do it without the need to e-pleasure myself at the same time. Now frankly I don't have that time and I refuse to spend it arguing with wannabe E-gods whose only claim to fame in life is 15 seconds in a frag movie. From experience I know how enjoyable playing games competitively is, but you really need to take your hobby and yourself bit less seriously. When you've learnt that there's more to life than having your friends make videos of you playing games and posting them on the internet I'm happy to have a mature discussion with you, but until then this is all I have to say on the matter.
I did enjoy the video. It was entertaining and well put together. The lawyers that exist in a certain jumped-up e-sportsman's mind have also advised me to say that all of Fana's frags were 'teh sechs' and that he is the most mightiest e-hero of them all and should be respected by all the NS noobs out there, not because of who he is, but because of what he's done.
(Just a little bit of 'education' - I learnt it from the best)
<i>This message brought to you in the slightly-blurred-but-nevertheless-real-cos-I-told-you-so Fanavision</i>
And I totally agree with Fana/Ben/tjo. I mean lets face it, Fana worked very closely with me on this movie in terms of feedback and advice - I think he knows what he's talking about.
Fana, there's education and there's ridicule. Until you learn the difference between the two you're doing NS's competitive community a great disservice every time you open your mouth to "educate the noobs". You obviously have no problem seeing that people know and look up to you as a reknowned player, but what you don't realise is that with 'fame' (no matter how small or great) comes responsibility.
For the record, if I did have more time I would play NS competitively (to the highest level attainable), at least to see if it held my attention. But if that were the case and I felt the need to point out someone's shortcomings, I'd do it without the need to e-pleasure myself at the same time. Now frankly I don't have that time and I refuse to spend it arguing with wannabe E-gods whose only claim to fame in life is 15 seconds in a frag movie. From experience I know how enjoyable playing games competitively is, but you really need to take your hobby and yourself bit less seriously. When you've learnt that there's more to life than having your friends make videos of you playing games and posting them on the internet I'm happy to have a mature discussion with you, but until then this is all I have to say on the matter.
I did enjoy the video. It was entertaining and well put together. The lawyers that exist in a certain jumped-up e-sportsman's mind have also advised me to say that all of Fana's frags were 'teh sechs' and that he is the most mightiest e-hero of them all and should be respected by all the NS noobs out there, not because of who he is, but because of what he's done.
(Just a little bit of 'education' - I learnt it from the best)
<i>This message brought to you in the slightly-blurred-but-nevertheless-real-cos-I-told-you-so Fanavision</i>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh oh, I think he's getting angry.
Out of everyone posting in this thread, you seem to be the only one who cares about "what I've done", including myself. I only remember the good times and the fun I've had doing it. If you're too shallow to come to terms with the fact that my post contained nothing but facts, humiliating as that may be for you, that's your loss.