You know, I'm not entirely sure I've ever seen the written phrase "corporeal punishment", although now that you point it out it does seem to make more sense that way. "Corporal" is just too common as a misspelling I guess.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I agree with your theory.
I contest that corporal punishment is the fastest way for a parent to assert authority. In fact, an assertive non-violent authority can be easily established from a very early age.
The other problem with it is that, if corproral punishment are to remain effective they have to grow in severity over time. You give a child a mild slap on the wrist, where you might spank an older child. No matter where you start on this line, it almost always has to escalate to be effective.
Non corporal punishments also escalate, for example, the timeout system is supposed to be loosely applied to infants but is still required in order to establish the practice and authority.
Get it right please, I can't take it anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment" target="_blank">Corporal</a> punishment it is, as I first stated. If you want Cyndane's job you've got to do better than this. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" />
All I know is it was a very effective deterrent when I was growing up. Tis sad now how social services and the like have made it illegal now. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad-fix.gif" />
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--quoteo(post=1634221:date=Jun 18 2007, 02:38 AM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Jun 18 2007, 02:38 AM) [snapback]1634221[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I was spanked more in school than at home and you know what? We didn't have guns or drugs in the schools back then either, or even the teenage pregnancy problems, or alcohol, and very few dropouts. My parents did a pretty damn good job of raising me and I ALWAYS respected them.
I don't care what The American Academy of Pediatrics said, it's that mentality (and the resulting lack of discipline) that is responsible for the problems we have with youth nowadays. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prove it has something to do with corporal punishments.
Also, I think I'm going to start a comic book series about an NCO called Corporal Punishment. His commanding officer will be Major Pain. Their overall commander will be General Alert.
<!--quoteo(post=1635132:date=Jun 21 2007, 06:55 PM:name=Epidemic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Epidemic @ Jun 21 2007, 06:55 PM) [snapback]1635132[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Prove it has something to do with corporal punishments. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1635135:date=Jun 21 2007, 07:07 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jun 21 2007, 07:07 PM) [snapback]1635135[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> One case a rule does not make.
Also, I think I'm going to start a comic book series about an NCO called Corporal Punishment. His commanding officer will be Major Pain. Their overall commander will be General Alert. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My generation (in particular everyone I grew up with and went to school with) respected authority at home and in the real world and I can't recall one of them turning out to be unruly or violent.
Certainly you didn't think I was just referring to myself? I raised my kids the same way I was raised and they're heading down the same bright path I did.
That's all the proof I need... if it's not broke don't fix it.
I respect authority and I was never beaten. This is because I was never beaten, and had I been beaten I would today be a violent criminal. Good thing I was never beaten, huh?
<!--quoteo(post=1635304:date=Jun 22 2007, 07:05 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jun 22 2007, 07:05 PM) [snapback]1635304[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I respect authority and I was never beaten. This is because I was never beaten, and had I been beaten I would today be a violent criminal. Good thing I was never beaten, huh? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was never "beaten" but I was disciplined, including spanking if I deserved it.
Know what? I turned out pretty damn good, and don't have a shread of violence in me.
<!--quoteo(post=1635250:date=Jun 22 2007, 05:17 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Jun 22 2007, 05:17 PM) [snapback]1635250[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I don't understand how education works without any kind of punishment.
"Two plus two is five!"
"That's a great job, Billy! Two plus two is four!"
"?!" <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pro-tip: Correcting a mistake and not praising someone for their mistakes is different to punishment.
<!--quoteo(post=1635310:date=Jun 22 2007, 07:30 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Jun 22 2007, 07:30 PM) [snapback]1635310[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Depot: You still fail at this whole correlation vs causation thing, and the lack of value of anectodal evidence. Wrong, try again. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And your basis for this assumption is? That's all you can say, is I'm wrong? <img src="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
You keep bringing up the anecdote of your and your friends' childhoods as evidence. Why do you do this? I'm not actually saying your opinion is wrong I'm just saying you have provided no worthwile evidence or argument to further your point.
Anecdotal evidence is worth nothing. Your argument fails.
It should be obvious, if one reads through the contents of this thread, that there are nothing but oppinions and there are no clear winners. No one has "failed" lol. Sure, a couple of studies were quoted but without some decent insight into how scientifically these were conducted they're of little worth.
Regarding the authors question, imho children have not lost their freedom. Relatively speaking children today have a helluva lot more freedom than my generation did... get over it.
Well, you were spanked, I wasn't. We both turned out okay. Since spanking is thus demonstrably unnecessary for a proper upbringing, I see no need to keep or reinstate it.
<!--quoteo(post=1635392:date=Jun 23 2007, 09:34 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jun 23 2007, 09:34 AM) [snapback]1635392[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Well, you were spanked, I wasn't. We both turned out okay. Since spanking is thus demonstrably unnecessary for a proper upbringing, I see no need to keep or reinstate it. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course you wouldn't, you've never had the responsibility of having to raise children.
Besides, if you'll look again you'll see where I attempted to re-focus on the author's question. So tell us how you feel you've lost your freedom. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
I don't see how "Wrong" is not punishment. You are punished when you are wrong, in an attempt to make your wrongdoings less frequent. It doesn't feel good to be wrong, even when it's something as simple as addition. If it felt good, you would do it again.
You cannot teach without punishment of some kind. It's impossible.
If you consider being wrong a punishment, you are at danger of clinging to false beliefs. It depends on the context, of course, but there is no inherent shame or dishonour in being wrong. I have learned to admit that I am wrong (to an extent) without seeing it as a personal defeat, and it makes life a lot easier.
<!--quoteo(post=1635394:date=Jun 23 2007, 03:46 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Jun 23 2007, 03:46 PM) [snapback]1635394[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Of course you wouldn't, you've never had the responsibility of having to raise children.
Besides, if you'll look again you'll see where I attempted to re-focus on the author's question. So tell us how you feel you've lost your freedom. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My parents have had that responsibility though. They didn't have to resort to violence. But then again, my parents are awesome like that. Not everyone can match them.
<!--quoteo(post=1635403:date=Jun 23 2007, 10:43 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jun 23 2007, 10:43 AM) [snapback]1635403[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If you consider being wrong a punishment, you are at danger of clinging to false beliefs. It depends on the context, of course, but there is no inherent shame or dishonour in being wrong. I have learned to admit that I am wrong (to an extent) without seeing it as a personal defeat, and it makes life a lot easier. My parents have had that responsibility though. They didn't have to resort to violence. But then again, my parents are awesome like that. Not everyone can match them. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, my parents never resorted to "violence either, and I'll bet you they're every bit as awesome as yours.
And yet again, how do you feel you've lost your freedom? Or did you forget what this topic is really about?
Did children ever really have freedom? Being born into a Government you did not agree with or have any choice over, being looked over by parents who govern what you can and cannot do. Did we ever have freedom?
I guess Jimmeh that would be a matter of perspective, depending on the culture you were raised in. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
You had the freedom to roam though, which is what the linked article claims children lost. Or, well, my father's generation had that freedom. My father's generation grew up in post-war Germany, so I suppose that's part of it. Then again, my ability to roam was hardly restricted either, I just didn't make much use of it. Maybe Germany is simply different.
Did you have the freedom to roam, or were you required to stay close to the house?
ChocolateThe Team MascotJoin Date: 2006-10-31Member: 58123Members
Just a side note: I was stupted on a good opening question to put without coping the articles title exactly, so I remade the title. Now that I could change the guiding question, I change it to:
Have children lost (or are losing) their right to roam?
With that I also say that I'm open to discussion about anything related to this guiding question, like the discussion about Corporal (or Corporeal) Punishment.
Comments
vs.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporeal" target="_blank">Corporeal</a>
Get it right please, I can't take it anymore.
I contest that corporal punishment is the fastest way for a parent to assert authority. In fact, an assertive non-violent authority can be easily established from a very early age.
The other problem with it is that, if corproral punishment are to remain effective they have to grow in severity over time. You give a child a mild slap on the wrist, where you might spank an older child. No matter where you start on this line, it almost always has to escalate to be effective.
Non corporal punishments also escalate, for example, the timeout system is supposed to be loosely applied to infants but is still required in order to establish the practice and authority.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal" target="_blank">Corporal</a>
vs.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporeal" target="_blank">Corporeal</a>
Get it right please, I can't take it anymore.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment" target="_blank">Corporal</a> punishment it is, as I first stated. If you want Cyndane's job you've got to do better than this. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" />
All I know is it was a very effective deterrent when I was growing up. Tis sad now how social services and the like have made it illegal now. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad-fix.gif" />
I was spanked more in school than at home and you know what? We didn't have guns or drugs in the schools back then either, or even the teenage pregnancy problems, or alcohol, and very few dropouts. My parents did a pretty damn good job of raising me and I ALWAYS respected them.
I don't care what The American Academy of Pediatrics said, it's that mentality (and the resulting lack of discipline) that is responsible for the problems we have with youth nowadays.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prove it has something to do with corporal punishments.
Also, I think I'm going to start a comic book series about an NCO called Corporal Punishment. His commanding officer will be Major Pain. Their overall commander will be General Alert.
"Two plus two is five!"
"That's a great job, Billy! Two plus two is four!"
"?!"
"Wrong" is punishment?!
Prove it has something to do with corporal punishments.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1635135:date=Jun 21 2007, 07:07 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jun 21 2007, 07:07 PM) [snapback]1635135[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
One case a rule does not make.
Also, I think I'm going to start a comic book series about an NCO called Corporal Punishment. His commanding officer will be Major Pain. Their overall commander will be General Alert.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My generation (in particular everyone I grew up with and went to school with) respected authority at home and in the real world and I can't recall one of them turning out to be unruly or violent.
Certainly you didn't think I was just referring to myself? I raised my kids the same way I was raised and they're heading down the same bright path I did.
That's all the proof I need... if it's not broke don't fix it.
I respect authority and I was never beaten. This is because I was never beaten, and had I been beaten I would today be a violent criminal. Good thing I was never beaten, huh?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was never "beaten" but I was disciplined, including spanking if I deserved it.
Know what? I turned out pretty damn good, and don't have a shread of violence in me.
I don't understand how education works without any kind of punishment.
"Two plus two is five!"
"That's a great job, Billy! Two plus two is four!"
"?!"
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pro-tip: Correcting a mistake and not praising someone for their mistakes is different to punishment.
"Two plus two is five!"
"Wrong! It's four!"
Not punishment.
You still fail at this whole correlation vs causation thing, and the lack of value of anectodal evidence. Wrong, try again.
Depot:
You still fail at this whole correlation vs causation thing, and the lack of value of anectodal evidence. Wrong, try again.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And your basis for this assumption is? That's all you can say, is I'm wrong? <img src="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Anecdotal evidence is worth nothing. Your argument fails.
Regarding the authors question, imho children have not lost their freedom. Relatively speaking children today have a helluva lot more freedom than my generation did... get over it.
Well, you were spanked, I wasn't. We both turned out okay. Since spanking is thus demonstrably unnecessary for a proper upbringing, I see no need to keep or reinstate it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course you wouldn't, you've never had the responsibility of having to raise children.
Besides, if you'll look again you'll see where I attempted to re-focus on the author's question. So tell us how you feel you've lost your freedom. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
You cannot teach without punishment of some kind. It's impossible.
<!--quoteo(post=1635394:date=Jun 23 2007, 03:46 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Jun 23 2007, 03:46 PM) [snapback]1635394[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Of course you wouldn't, you've never had the responsibility of having to raise children.
Besides, if you'll look again you'll see where I attempted to re-focus on the author's question. So tell us how you feel you've lost your freedom. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My parents have had that responsibility though. They didn't have to resort to violence. But then again, my parents are awesome like that. Not everyone can match them.
If you consider being wrong a punishment, you are at danger of clinging to false beliefs. It depends on the context, of course, but there is no inherent shame or dishonour in being wrong. I have learned to admit that I am wrong (to an extent) without seeing it as a personal defeat, and it makes life a lot easier.
My parents have had that responsibility though. They didn't have to resort to violence. But then again, my parents are awesome like that. Not everyone can match them.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, my parents never resorted to "violence either, and I'll bet you they're every bit as awesome as yours.
And yet again, how do you feel you've lost your freedom? Or did you forget what this topic is really about?
Did you have the freedom to roam, or were you required to stay close to the house?
Have children lost (or are losing) their right to roam?
With that I also say that I'm open to discussion about anything related to this guiding question, like the discussion about Corporal (or Corporeal) Punishment.