It's hard to be a pirate. Pirates can't capture ports permanently, they can only loot the port and get out before the other nation retakes it. Pirates can't get the most powerful ships except by capturing them from other nations (although they might be able to build some), but once they get those ships they're flagged for open PVP and are vulnerable wherever they go. Pirates don't get to specialize in one area as much as a freetrader, privateer, or navy officer can. Pirates don't have the power of a colonial nation to back them up. I actually don't know, but I assume pirates can fight among each other about as much as they do other nations. Finally, your relations with the other nations is much worse being a pirate than it would be if you were just a different nation, which leads to more attacks and more tariffs and taxes in other ports.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
heh, this game looks almost exactly like Voyage Century/Bounty Bay. Just with out the suck <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
VC/BBO had all the same concepts, just lacking the polish that seems to be in this game.
By the way, on the topic of individual ships: That ship guide, now that I've gone a bit more in-depth with it than I had earlier, has proven quite useful. The Xebec seems to be a good choice for a pirate, but what about a naval officer? From what the (outdated, as you say) list tells, the frigates make good choices. They're fast, maneuverable for their size (the larger ones are of course more sluggish in response, but still nimble compared to ships-of-the-line), hold large amounts of highly trained crew and large gun batteries. They seem to be the perfect solo warships. And if you compare the stats of a medium frigate with those of a Xebec, the medium frigate does seem to hold a distinct advantage on paper. And if you read what the ship guide says about frigates, it seems to me that the frigate is the perfect vehicle for a naval officer to take on a lonesome hunt for pirates and tempting targets of enemy nations. Seems to me like frigates are the kings of the 1 on 1 fight. High maneuverability, high speed, reasonably tough and with armament secondary only to ships-of-the-line.
I actually haven't been following the game super fervently, so I'm really not sure about balance issues like that. Most of what I know comes from talking with the devs a couple times at PAX and playing it a couple times. I'm not even in the beta. The <a href="http://burningsea.com" target="_blank">website</a> and the forums are usually a good place for information; the New Forum Member Questions board has some really helpful people who live there, and the Dev Forums have a large treasure trove of info.
We could all wait for the open beta, of course, which should answer everything.
For example, put a frigate up against a ship of the line and the frigate probably has a distinct advantage as it can stay away from the ship of the line's broadside and rake it with gunfire. Put it up against a smaller, nimbler ship and the frigate will maintain the advantage because it is sturdier than the smaller ship and outguns it as well, and it isn't so slow that the smaller ship can evade indefinitely. Put it up against two ships and the frigate captain may have to get creative. Put it up against two ships of the line with captains that are half competent and the frigate must turn tail and run as it cannot stay away from the broadsides of both ships and it cannot match the toughness and firepower of even one.
Theories, of course, but plausible ones, from a historical perspective as well. Ships of the line must not sail alone lest they risk getting killed by faster, nimbler ships. But frankly, it'd be a bit sucky if, say, a Xebec could sink a ship of the line single-handedly. A gnat can't kill an elephant no matter how skilled it is. A cutter, maybe. If a cutter could take a ship of the line (assuming a certain skill disparity), that'd be acceptable to me.
You make it sound a lot more clear cut than it is. A frigate <i>can</i> do all the things you've mentioned, but it can just as easily be defeated in any of those matchups if the other player is better. There are more options than "sit there firing" and "dodge nimbly about." You can choose to demast your opponent's ship, forcing them to stop in the water while they repair the damage. You can close in close and use grapeshot to take out their crew, then board them. You can load your ship up with lots of armor and choose skills that let your crew repair armor, and pound away. You can outfit your ship with different hull and sail fittings to increase speed, acceleration, or maneuverability. You can change the ammo in your guns. You have many different skills to choose from as a captain, all of which change the battle. So really, it's how you play and how good you are that make as much of a difference as what ship you're commanding.
i think the point that's getting lost here is that a player who knows what he's doing with a light ship can probably sink a player whose playbook consists of: 1) I HAS BIG SHIP 'N GUNZ 2) I SHOOTS WEE SHIP WITH GUNZ.
also, large ships usually have fore/aft guns as well, the broadsides just have more guns. a frigate is only slightly safer directly behind a ship of the line.
If you compare the broadsides with the fore/aft guns however, you'll notice a massive difference in firepower. In that era, large ships didn't sink to one or two good hits, it took dozens or scores of hits to inflict incapacitating damage on a large ship. Rigging, too, has toughness in the game. Demasting your opponent is harder if his ship is bigger than yours because larger ships are tougher and smaller ships have less firepower. It's nice that there is room for skill, but there needs to be room for "my ship costs me two weeks' worth of profit, it better bring some serious bang for the buck too" or the end-game economy will crumble because nobody will be particularly interested in the high-end ships.
If you compare a Xebec and a frigate, the Xebec is slightly faster, slightly more agile and accelerates a little faster. Meanwhile, the frigate, any frigate, has massive advantages in firepower and toughness (as well as manpower, if the ships clash in boarding action). It's nice that there's room for skill, but if the players are roughly evenly matched for skill the Xebec captain better have to turn tail and run, or the bigger warships just become massively pointless.
I don't know the game. Maybe it's arcadey and in that case anything is possible. But I get the impression that the game aims for more than that (clue: ships descriptions are multiple pages of historical information, not "lol, boat with cannons ^_^"), and in that case large warships, especially frigates, need to enjoy a certain superiority over the mass of small ships. Historically, when a frigate turned up on the horizon (a rare event in the carribbean during the golden ages of piracy), the smart pirates turned and ran. The stupid pirates (of which there were plenty) stayed, fought and died.
if there were only a few frigates, there were only a few frigate captains. therefore, the frigate captains were probably of the highest grade.
the point methinks redford was trying to make is that a smart captain would probably have a chance against a not-as-smart captain, even though there was a difference in character age and ship size.
Yes, I think that's cemented by now. Frankly, I have no problem with players losing fights they should win with ease if it's because they don't know what a broadside is or if they wonder why there's cloth all over the deck atop tall poles and where's the engine room anyway?
The presence of frigates (and other large, powerful or high-cargo-capacity ships) will probably be limited by attrition (they have fewer durability points than other ships) and price (bigger and better = more expensive). Mind you, Burning Sea plays during the early eighteenth century, where the large naval nations were establishing heavier military presences in the carribbean compared to the lawlessness and lack of warships that the carribbean saw in the seventeenth century.
Can you really be certain of that? Not that I don't have any faith in this game, but do you know for a fact it will rock? Auto Assault sounded great, groundbreaking, truly amazing - until I played it.
I merely advocate caution, nothing else. If you invest too many hopes in a game that you don't really know all that much about, you're setting yourself up for a possible letdown. It's much better to go "meh, we'll see how it goes" and then get the present surprise of "oh, everybody says the game rocks! Yay!" when it's out than the other way around.
I wasn't really serious about it though; the fact that you don't lose all that much if someone blasts your ship into itty bitty bits bothers me, for one.
I've been playing Sid Meier's Pirates! again thanks to this thread. very fun game. It's just about time for me to start farming for a ship-of-the-line...
<!--quoteo(post=1645585:date=Aug 26 2007, 12:05 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Aug 26 2007, 12:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1645585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wasn't really serious about it though; the fact that you don't lose all that much if someone blasts your ship into itty bitty bits bothers me, for one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you lose your ship. If it has multiple durability points, you lose one of those, which isn't as bad but you're one step closer to losing the entire ship. And with that goes all your upgrades that you've bought for that ship and any cargo you were carrying.
Especially considering something like WoW where all you lose is worthless gold, it's no walk in the park being boarded or sunk.
<!--quoteo(post=1645648:date=Aug 27 2007, 05:20 AM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Aug 27 2007, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1645648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, you lose your ship. If it has multiple durability points, you lose one of those, which isn't as bad but you're one step closer to losing the entire ship. And with that goes all your upgrades that you've bought for that ship and any cargo you were carrying.
Especially considering something like WoW where all you lose is worthless gold, it's no walk in the park being boarded or sunk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Especially when you consider that the primary (if not only) way pirates and maybe privateers as well will get access to high level ships is by stealing them from other players. In turn, any stolen ship is permanently flagged for PvP, which means it's open season. There are plenty of ways to be screwed over if you are thus inclined. However, not everyone likes a draconic punishment for "mistakes" that they cannot avoid making (such as playing the game or setting out to sea) and the game has to accommodate that somehow.
But trust me, if your medium frigate is sunk, it's not something you won't care about.
Comments
VC/BBO had all the same concepts, just lacking the polish that seems to be in this game.
I seriously can't wait <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
That ship guide, now that I've gone a bit more in-depth with it than I had earlier, has proven quite useful. The Xebec seems to be a good choice for a pirate, but what about a naval officer? From what the (outdated, as you say) list tells, the frigates make good choices. They're fast, maneuverable for their size (the larger ones are of course more sluggish in response, but still nimble compared to ships-of-the-line), hold large amounts of highly trained crew and large gun batteries. They seem to be the perfect solo warships. And if you compare the stats of a medium frigate with those of a Xebec, the medium frigate does seem to hold a distinct advantage on paper. And if you read what the ship guide says about frigates, it seems to me that the frigate is the perfect vehicle for a naval officer to take on a lonesome hunt for pirates and tempting targets of enemy nations. Seems to me like frigates are the kings of the 1 on 1 fight. High maneuverability, high speed, reasonably tough and with armament secondary only to ships-of-the-line.
Thoughts?
We could all wait for the open beta, of course, which should answer everything.
For example, put a frigate up against a ship of the line and the frigate probably has a distinct advantage as it can stay away from the ship of the line's broadside and rake it with gunfire. Put it up against a smaller, nimbler ship and the frigate will maintain the advantage because it is sturdier than the smaller ship and outguns it as well, and it isn't so slow that the smaller ship can evade indefinitely. Put it up against two ships and the frigate captain may have to get creative. Put it up against two ships of the line with captains that are half competent and the frigate must turn tail and run as it cannot stay away from the broadsides of both ships and it cannot match the toughness and firepower of even one.
Theories, of course, but plausible ones, from a historical perspective as well. Ships of the line must not sail alone lest they risk getting killed by faster, nimbler ships. But frankly, it'd be a bit sucky if, say, a Xebec could sink a ship of the line single-handedly. A gnat can't kill an elephant no matter how skilled it is. A cutter, maybe. If a cutter could take a ship of the line (assuming a certain skill disparity), that'd be acceptable to me.
also, large ships usually have fore/aft guns as well, the broadsides just have more guns. a frigate is only slightly safer directly behind a ship of the line.
If you compare a Xebec and a frigate, the Xebec is slightly faster, slightly more agile and accelerates a little faster. Meanwhile, the frigate, any frigate, has massive advantages in firepower and toughness (as well as manpower, if the ships clash in boarding action). It's nice that there's room for skill, but if the players are roughly evenly matched for skill the Xebec captain better have to turn tail and run, or the bigger warships just become massively pointless.
I don't know the game. Maybe it's arcadey and in that case anything is possible. But I get the impression that the game aims for more than that (clue: ships descriptions are multiple pages of historical information, not "lol, boat with cannons ^_^"), and in that case large warships, especially frigates, need to enjoy a certain superiority over the mass of small ships. Historically, when a frigate turned up on the horizon (a rare event in the carribbean during the golden ages of piracy), the smart pirates turned and ran. The stupid pirates (of which there were plenty) stayed, fought and died.
the point methinks redford was trying to make is that a smart captain would probably have a chance against a not-as-smart captain, even though there was a difference in character age and ship size.
The presence of frigates (and other large, powerful or high-cargo-capacity ships) will probably be limited by attrition (they have fewer durability points than other ships) and price (bigger and better = more expensive). Mind you, Burning Sea plays during the early eighteenth century, where the large naval nations were establishing heavier military presences in the carribbean compared to the lawlessness and lack of warships that the carribbean saw in the seventeenth century.
And broadside other people!
I prefer wet blanket, because if you think about it, a wet blanket puts out fires too, so it's good to have one around.
But you can't broadside your buddy in Sid Meier's Pirates! So that's a difference.
Well, you lose your ship. If it has multiple durability points, you lose one of those, which isn't as bad but you're one step closer to losing the entire ship. And with that goes all your upgrades that you've bought for that ship and any cargo you were carrying.
Especially considering something like WoW where all you lose is worthless gold, it's no walk in the park being boarded or sunk.
Especially considering something like WoW where all you lose is worthless gold, it's no walk in the park being boarded or sunk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Especially when you consider that the primary (if not only) way pirates and maybe privateers as well will get access to high level ships is by stealing them from other players. In turn, any stolen ship is permanently flagged for PvP, which means it's open season. There are plenty of ways to be screwed over if you are thus inclined. However, not everyone likes a draconic punishment for "mistakes" that they cannot avoid making (such as playing the game or setting out to sea) and the game has to accommodate that somehow.
But trust me, if your medium frigate is sunk, it's not something you won't care about.