<!--quoteo(post=1664369:date=Dec 17 2007, 03:03 AM:name=afratnikov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov @ Dec 17 2007, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Best NS1 players who get a SG, keep it for a very long time by moving in groups with other marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> /offtopic: best NSPlayers don't stay with groups, they run straight into the hive vaporizing any and all walker skulks along their way and maximizing their kills/min by reducing travel time from them to their victim to 0.
RFK & RF building RTs should be the only means of receiving more money without the commander paying you $$ himself.
<!--quoteo(post=1664459:date=Dec 17 2007, 03:44 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 17 2007, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->/offtopic: best NSPlayers don't stay with groups, they run straight into the hive vaporizing any and all walker skulks along their way and maximizing their kills/min by reducing travel time from them to their victim to 0.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, you're right. I guess i was idealizing too much <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RFK & RF building RTs should be the only means of receiving more money without the commander paying you $$ himself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please elaborate. The main reason to allow the comm handing out weapons is to let him call rushes with fully equipped marines. If only marines can get their gun, the commander won't be able to do beacon/hive rush or other full-scale attacks. Instead, he will have to rely on marines to save their money for the right moment.
<!--quoteo(post=1664369:date=Dec 17 2007, 03:03 AM:name=afratnikov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov @ Dec 17 2007, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your idea is superior to my suggestions, because it lets every marine know EXACTLY what he should get and what his role is. (the disadvantage is that it is more difficult to implement and perfect)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I understand the amazing frame work that Unknown Worlds have implemented with LUA, through what they have blogged and pod casted, may I respectfully suggest that any notion of how difficult something is to implement has been tossed right out the window, because they have cut their time to implement ideas by such an incredibly exponential amount.
Basicly, what I am saying is, let the Devs decide how tough something would be to implement. What I propose our purpose is as dedicated fans is the clear and concise presentation of ideas, to hash out the pros and cons of those ideas, and learn from one another through constructive critical process.
Hehe, that doesn't sound so basic after all, let me try again: Throw no idea out and let us all be nice as we share our opinions to improve a game we are dedicated fans of.
In the end, I proposed what I proposed only because I wish to see a better frame work for what Commanders and Marines do with each other already, with such examples as trying to give weapons to the players that use them effectively, accomplishing tactical decisions balanced against strategic decisions, and presenting a easy to understand system for the noob in all of us, so that we might all enjoy plenty of fun virtually out playing each other, like some fantastic shiny game of paper rock scissors.
I can understand what you are meaning by the Commander adjusting values, but here is my counter point to that: Would you have fun as a commander playing a spread sheet? Messing with the numbers? Or would a Commander have more fun showing pictures and symbols to the Marines? What are the chances in a system of "buy value" that it could have fun ruined through a griefer or perceived to be "noob" commander? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
The Kharaa currently hate it when a gorge makes a decision that effects their game's strategic outcome, but on a tactical level they still pick their upgrade. The marines are no different, they hate it when a commander hurts their tactical decisions on the ground for the strategic over-all plan. There are two keys to solving this problem that I can see: Communication & System. Currently, Kharaa have the system and lack the communication, the marines have the communication and lack the system. All I am proposing is facilitating fun, not taking it away, I hope that makes sense <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Ok, let me first respond to your suggestion: Your ideas needs to be fleshed in a lot more detail. Right now, i only have a very vague idea of how it might work.
Request forms: How will these work?
Templates: What information will templates have? Who makes them? Will there be pre-made templates such as HA+SG+Welder? - this would create huge screen full of all the different combinations OR will the comm create them on the fly? - Considering this will take comm's time out of doing other important tasks - how much time would it take? What special UI components will help the comm make templates?
Finally, what motive will marines have to follow these templates? After a lost match i can see something like this occur: Comm: well, you lost because you didn't follow my templates. Marines: no we lost because you suck and your templates were useless. Comm: you see, you needed HA/SGs/welder to kill the hive and you lost because you didn't do like i told you! Marines: the onos protecting the hive would have eaten us! We needed JP/HMGs to finish him. We lost because you didn't research JP! ...and so on
It seems to me, like most people here assume that the commander is infallible: he knows what's best for the team. I disagree. The commander is just another NS2 player who can do the same mistakes and will only guess what might be best in every situation. A new NS2 commander might insist on all marines having HAs before walking in an unprotected hive, when in reality an early shotgun rush would have easily brought it down.
Also, i want to be clear: i'm not against this idea - I just need more information.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I propose our purpose is as dedicated fans is the clear and concise presentation of ideas, to hash out the pros and cons of those ideas, and learn from one another through constructive critical process.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I completely agree with that.
<!--quoteo(post=1664503:date=Dec 17 2007, 07:43 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 17 2007, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I understand the amazing frame work that Unknown Worlds have implemented with LUA, through what they have blogged and pod casted, may I respectfully suggest that any notion of how difficult something is to implement has been tossed right out the window, because they have cut their time to implement ideas by such an incredibly exponential amount.
Basicly, what I am saying is, let the Devs decide how tough something would be to implement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Complexity of every idea needs to be considered: easy-to implement idea is a big pro, since it can be quickly set up, tested, and adjusted to make the game better. This does NOT mean complex ideas should be dismissed - however, they DO need to be clear, detailed, and improve the game significantly. LUA makes work easier, but all proposed ideas will have to be first written and then play-tested. The stuff i proposed only requires messing with the prices a bit and could be done in one evening (: just create a simple function to the item prices and a counter to weapons equipped). Creating templates, request forms, and a squad mechanic would require a lot more work - but the benefits may be worth it: so, let's explore it more.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can understand what you are meaning by the Commander adjusting values, but here is my counter point to that: Would you have fun as a commander playing a spread sheet? Messing with the numbers? Or would a Commander have more fun showing pictures and symbols to the Marines? What are the chances in a system of "buy value" that it could have fun ruined through a griefer or perceived to be "noob" commander? wink-fix.gif<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The commander won't play with spread sheets. His only choice will be to decide one weapon that will be less expensive to marines - that's it. The marines will have to figure out what weapon to get based on prices, which will be constantly changing. At one point the SG may cost 15 res (because of a hive rush everyone has one), another it's just 8 res (because everyoen has better weapons and commander forgot to change the discount).
The comm won't show fun pictures, instead the marines will be intrinsically motivated to follow the strategy he lay out: Comm chooses to make HMGs cheaper to counter fades and onos. When choosing a weapon a marine stops to think: I really like a shotgun (10res), but the HMG (15-3=12res) is almost as cheap and a lot more powerful. The marine might choose the shotgun, because he enjoys it, or get the HMG because it's best bang for his buck.
Griefers and noob-commanders will ruin any fun. However, here the comm actually can't mess up much: so the griefer comm chooses to discount the GL - still everyone can buy the weapons they like at normal price - they just don't get a discount. And the comm has no control over how many weapons are out.
Please offer more constructive criticism to this idea to improve it.
<!--quoteo(post=1664513:date=Dec 18 2007, 01:15 AM:name=afratnikov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov @ Dec 18 2007, 01:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, let me first respond to your suggestion: Your ideas needs to be fleshed in a lot more detail. Right now, i only have a very vague idea of how it might work.
Request forms: How will these work?
Templates: What information will templates have? Who makes them? Will there be pre-made templates such as HA+SG+Welder? - this would create huge screen full of all the different combinations OR will the comm create them on the fly? - Considering this will take comm's time out of doing other important tasks - how much time would it take? What special UI components will help the comm make templates?
Finally, what motive will marines have to follow these templates?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since words don't always get things across as well as I like, I went to MS Paint, to sketch some pictures of what a request system could look like.
For these rough sketches, assume that the mouse is used, you single click to select or unselect , and that a commander can not be spammed by a player. And that the selection screens are opaque aka see through.
A piece of equipment not researched yet or otherwise meeting some requirement, such as a structure or resources available, will not be selectable for request. Also, pieces of equipment already in the possession of the marine are not factored into the cost of the resource request but may reduce the cost if the current equipment is being recycled so the marine can use new equipment.
Further, the template when clicked - fills the request completely in one click. The number beneath a template button is showing the number of other players using that template / the number the commander has requested to be in the team. Also, may I suggest their be a reward to your score for choosing a Command, as a bit of motivation <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Ideally, this process should take a Commander no more than a few seconds, click click, done. And really, it will be limited to his current research level. When research finishes, perhaps he could be asked "Would you like to update Equipment Templates?" And when receiving a request, again, the process should be no more than see blinking request in bottom corner, click, scan request, click yes or request lower cost. Notice I suggest not saying no to the marine, just expressing a concern that it drains resources too much at that time.
Also, I am using the word templates, but perhaps it could be called loadout or whatever sounds best to get the idea across that you are not forcing someone else to do this, it is a suggestion, albeit a good suggestion based on the Commanders knowledge of resources, strategic plan, and current level of research.
In addition, I do like the idea of marines earning stuff too. Basicly, the only reason there needs to be a request is because the purchase from the armory could hurt the team's resources, if a marine has a tiny piggy bank of their own resources, plus can recycle old equipment for a discount on new equipment, then you don't need to pester the Commander with a request, just go pick up the stuff. Only thing it might affect would be if you are fulfilling a Command Template, in which case the Commander and the team should know that a role is filled or not.
I kind of think of templates like an extension of the current score board in NS1, where you see a symbol for the weapon a player is holding, so that you know what your fellow marine is capable of. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After a lost match i can see something like this occur: Comm: well, you lost because you didn't follow my templates. Marines: no we lost because you suck and your templates were useless. Comm: you see, you needed HA/SGs/welder to kill the hive and you lost because you didn't do like i told you! Marines: the onos protecting the hive would have eaten us! We needed JP/HMGs to finish him. We lost because you didn't research JP! ...and so on
It seems to me, like most people here assume that the commander is infallible: he knows what's best for the team. I disagree. The commander is just another NS2 player who can do the same mistakes and will only guess what might be best in every situation. A new NS2 commander might insist on all marines having HAs before walking in an unprotected hive, when in reality an early shotgun rush would have easily brought it down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find this kind of funny, we know this scenario already happens, when players want to ###### at each other, they just do. So, I don't see how changing values would alleviate this situation either. In fact, constantly changing values can be pretty frustrating and regardless of cost a player could still pick their favourite weapon and screw the team out of more res than usual, yes? This situation cuts both ways and really, the only way I see it being gentled and soften the blow some is to make sure the lines of communication between a commander and his marines are open and clear.
When first reading your idea, i had my misgivings, but now I can pinpoint what it is: it's too static and same thing can be accomplished using text/voice *By template i not only refer to HMG+HA or SG+welder, but also to the number of such marine load-outs the comm requests.
<i>Templates are too static.</i> In NS the situation is constantly changing and no template will stay the same for 2 minutes of the game, because of 1) new research 2) lost marines 3) new alien forms 4) strategy change.
The time spent by the commander making and adjusting the templates probably won't be worth it. He could simply say "get JPs," when they're researched, or "rush with SGs" instead of creating new templates when JP is researched and asking the team to get 3xSG and 2xSG+Welder. Also, if the template is 3xHA+SG, but there is only 30res, should one marines take 1HA+SG or three marines one SG each? The comm usually doesn't have the res to keep all his marines equipped, so it's not "Team needs to have 3HMG and 2SG" but rather "Team needs 1 more HMG" (hope this makes sense...). Templates are very inflexible and would require a lot of managing if they are to correctly reflect the needs. And even after all that work, the marines still might not see or choose to ignore them. BTW, one more Q: where would the marine soldiers see what templates they're supposed to use? They should be easily accessible and yet not block the view.
Another big problem is: your idea keeps the commander responsible for supervising and deciding, in great detail, what weapons marines have. He might as well just drop weapons directly on people or drop them in sets, just like in NS1. The key change in weapon distribution from NS1-NS2 is that the soldiers decide what weapons they have - not the commander.
BYW, I think the weapons should be purchased exclusively using soldiers' money (though the commander could purchase money) Your drawing indicates that the commander would buy the weapons. I just wanted to point out that difference before it would cause confusion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find this kind of funny, we know this scenario already happens, when players want to ###### at each other, they just do. So, I don't see how changing values would alleviate this situation either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Blame will always be assigned after a lost game - that isn't the point. Reread this: "It seems to me, like most people here assume that the commander is infallible: he knows what's best for the team. I disagree. The commander is just another NS2 player who can do the same mistakes and will only guess what might be best in every situation. A new NS2 commander might insist on all marines having HAs before walking in an unprotected hive, when in reality an early shotgun rush would have easily brought it down." <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact, constantly changing values can be pretty frustrating and regardless of cost a player could still pick their favourite weapon and screw the team out of more res than usual, yes? This situation cuts both ways and really, the only way I see it being gentled and soften the blow some is to ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the cost of weapons is easily accessible (especially when dead), it shouldn't be a problem: check price, make decision, buy. Technically, yes, someone might screw one player by a whooping 1 res, IF two teammates decide to get the same weapon he did - but they could avoid this loss by getting a different gun (my idea encourages diverse load-out).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->make sure the lines of communication between a commander and his marines are open and clear.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a big thing, and definitely needs to be improved in NS2. I had already posted on this, but you might have overlooked it: <!--quoteo(post=1664089:date=Dec 15 2007, 09:03 AM:name=afratnikov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov @ Dec 15 2007, 09:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the your comm-request idea, and I have an idea how it might be implemented. The comm could have a special marine screen, similar to the scoreboard, but with extra info including: 1) Current weapon 2) Amount of money 3) active requests. The commander could directly interact through this screen giving meds/ammo and respond with "yes/no" to requests.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the marines know what guns their teammates carry, they could make much better decisions.
i like kissaminos idea of a percentage. the comm could have a dial from 20% to 100% some where on his UI. Using the dial the comm can set the percentage of his res that goes to the rines. It only gos down to 20% (this could be changed to 10%) to stop irratable comms from not allowing any rine purchasing.
I have one problem with rines earning weapons in any form. tking. if friendly fire is on the following could happen. elite rine earns beg shiny gun. walks down corridor, gets shot in the back of the head by noob. Now noob has big shiny gun. I spose you could turn off ff period. but ff on some servers can encourage rines to think before they fire. or droped weapons could disapear but this would waste alot of res. Currently on ns u dont get alot of vindictive tking but a weapons earning system may encourage one.
I agree that a comm needs to be able to drop gear for specific rushes still.
on how the 20-100% available is distributed amongst the rines it could be a first come first served system. you go to army area spend res on weapons and leave wen its gone its gone, until more generates. It could be evenly distributed like aliens, or it could be based on rines points. The problem with a points system is it encourages points farming. if the points system encourages team work it may work. Problem with even distribution - unless loads of res take ages to get any guns. also similar to aliens. problem with first come first served. player could spend all res and not leave any for other players.
a request system isnt a good idea in my opinion. cos it wudnt be to dissimilar to current system - "comm i need a sg" "no".
it wud mean bureaucracy for the comm. slow down his game play. Also it moves the impoteus from the player to the comm. atm a comm drops guns. if u don't get a gun he may be busy or he maybe saving res, or maybe he just doesn't like you. if its a request that you have sent and he denys you, how dare he, he lets others have guns, and he cant just not have noticed cos he got a form. he actively denied me rather than on the current system passively denied. this could make players more angry with comm.
Dark RageJoin Date: 2007-12-05Member: 63081Members
What about about a system that lets marines actively switch between whatever guns are researched. For example, the comm researches shotguns and anyone can get a shotgun or keep using the LMG. If the comm wants to research flamethrowers any marines can get a flamethrower from the armory anytime they want. Increase the cost of upgrading specific weapons so the comm still has to pick which path to upgrade. The marines could then choose whatever weapon has been upgraded.
Balancing would not be that difficult as you have several options. You could set a limit on the number of guns allowed on a team, or prestige/stats/ratios would determine if you could handle a new gun, or simply tweak the damage of the guns so they are all viable options but have different purposes, or like i mentioned make the research costs significant.
This system would eliminate 90% of the problems of the current system of the comm having total control (and marines flaming the comm for not dropping him a shotgun 1 minute into the game). If marines want to rush they have to all choose to get that gun and work together. I think marines would want a more balanced approach anyway. This also would help late game because as you tech up and have all the weapons researched each marine can essentially pick what he wants.
I think that the Comm having all the decision making power is very important, but It is also nice to be able to buy guns, so Why not keep coms the way they are now, but give each marine a small amount of res from the towers (Say 10% divided over the rines, and 1/2 of your rfk) so each marines can buy a gun or two ingame also. This would solve both problems of taking the comms power and leaving the marines helpless.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited December 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1664596:date=Dec 19 2007, 10:08 AM:name=Dark Rage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dark Rage @ Dec 19 2007, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about about a system that lets marines actively switch between whatever guns are researched. For example, the comm researches shotguns and anyone can get a shotgun or keep using the LMG. If the comm wants to research flamethrowers any marines can get a flamethrower from the armory anytime they want. Increase the cost of upgrading specific weapons so the comm still has to pick which path to upgrade. The marines could then choose whatever weapon has been upgraded.
Balancing would not be that difficult as you have several options. You could set a limit on the number of guns allowed on a team, or prestige/stats/ratios would determine if you could handle a new gun, or simply tweak the damage of the guns so they are all viable options but have different purposes, or like i mentioned make the research costs significant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree this could work for some weapons like the shotgun but what about a progression of tech? Once you have HMG, GL, and FT why would anyone pick anything else? If these weapons become low-powered enough to give out freely what's the point of researching the HMG and GL when you all ready have the shotgun? You'd run into the same problems with HA and JP. And limiters limit the comm as well as the marines.
I'm thinking this through so I'm going restate the goals: Marines get the weapons they're best with regularly. Comm can't spend a lot of time on divvying weapons. Comm needs to be able to hand out specific weapons at specific times(ie a shotgun rush).
Here's my proposal building on those before me: Each marine starts with a personal res allowance(let's say 5, or enough to buy a welder) This res is not res personally owned, it is res credit. Whenever a marine gets a kill/assist/kills an rt he/she gets 1/.5/2 res credits respectively. The comm has two res pools that he can move res from/too: the comm pool and the equipment pool. If a marine has enough credit he can buy from the equipment pool. Once the marine has used the credit, it is gone and will either need to build more credit by killing aliens or helping the comm. If there's no res in the equipment pool, nothing can be purchased by marines. The comm can raise(and maybe lower) credit for individual marines as needed. There is a raise global button so the comm can click that 15 times to ensure everyone has enough credit for a shotgun welder rush.
Damn, I get the distinct sense you get the impression I am not reading your posts, which I am. You are repeating a lot of what I have already read in your posts, and while I understand your concern that perhaps I missed something, it irks me and comes off a touch disrespectful to my ability to notice these things for myself. And wouldn't you know it, I feel like you haven't been reading my posts either? Should I quote myself or try to phrase it differently? I think I will try to address your whole post in quotes, even though its not my preference because where it is strong in direct addressing, it lacks in berevity (long post) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1664585:date=Dec 19 2007, 06:12 AM:name=afratnikov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov @ Dec 19 2007, 06:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When first reading your idea, i had my misgivings, but now I can pinpoint what it is: <b>it's too static and same thing can be accomplished using text/voice</b> *By template i not only refer to HMG+HA or SG+welder, but also to <b>the number of</b> such marine load-outs the comm requests.
<i>Templates are too static.</i> In NS the situation is constantly changing and no template will stay the same for 2 minutes of the game, because of 1) new research 2) lost marines 3) new alien forms 4) strategy change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er, you did read notes after the MS paint sketches, yes? I am going to assume you did, so maybe it needs clarification: A request system will not be a "request" if the Commander can just deny everything. The system is just supposed to be symbolic of what Commanders already do, as you describe is done with voice communication (and text might I add). Here is the downside to the old way you describe, constantly repeating yourself. Instead, using templates, you do it and leave it.
Also, just to clarify, I also think a request system fails if it does not allow for marines to get equipment outside of Commander approval. Here is the reason for needing Commander approval, it affects the whole team. This means, for it to properly work, there needs to be Team Resource Pool and a Marine's Individual Resource Piggy Bank. This relates to Invader Zim's and Kissaminos' posts, which I agree with, Res Flow Percentage Pie, because it acknowledges the need for and to manage two different kinds of resource pools.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>The time spent by the commander making and adjusting the templates probably won't be worth it.</b> He could simply say "get JPs," when they're researched, or "rush with SGs" instead of creating new templates when JP is researched and asking the team to get 3xSG and 2xSG+Welder. Also, if the template is 3xHA+SG, but there is only 30res, should one marines take 1HA+SG or three marines one SG each? The comm usually doesn't have the res to keep all his marines equipped, so it's not "Team needs to have 3HMG and 2SG" but rather "Team needs 1 more HMG" (hope this makes sense...). <b>Templates are very inflexible and would require a lot of managing if they are to correctly reflect the needs.</b> And even after all that work, the marines still might not see or choose to ignore them. BTW, one more <b>Q: where would the marine soldiers see what templates they're supposed to use? They should be easily accessible and yet not block the view.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I see it, the Templates take less time and less managing than you are representing here. I am pretty sure I covered this potential problem already as well, where really a Template should only require at most a couple clicks from the Commander and a similar case for the Marine. There is no need for a complicated system, its supposed to facilitate, not hinder. There are poor, inaccurate, inefficient systems and their are good ones. Who wants a bad one? Not me, that's for sure, I've had enough of that in NS1. I feel that there are complexities and inflexibilities that are being assumed. Either the system is built flexible or it is not, and I hope it is built flexible.
Were you aware signs for international tourists deal mostly in pictures and symbols to get across ideas? The Templates / Requests / Buy Menu have a great potential to this as well. Clear and concise.
Okay, I'm not sure if I am being clear here or if it just wasn't read in my previous post, but the whole request / template thing only really kicks in if a Marine is trying to buy with TEAM RESOURCES. They can do whatever the heck they want with their own resources, a Commander has to consider the impact of how Team Resources are used on every marine, to take that out of his hands would be one very frustrated Commander, in which I would see the following scenario happening: "Sorry guys NewPlayer1 just spent all our res on his load out, I have nothing left for structures or research" *Commander Quits*
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>Another big problem is: your idea keeps the commander responsible for supervising and deciding, in great detail, what weapons marines have. <b>He might as well just drop weapons directly on people or drop them in sets, just like in NS1.</b> The key change in weapon distribution from NS1-NS2 is that the soldiers decide what weapons they have - not the commander.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My idea now? I thought someone else posted it first, I thought I would just add to it, but oh well... How will a Commander not be doing this anyways, only would you rather a request to be filled or just exclusively a Commander yelling into their mic (if they own one) to do this or that strategy? Look, I get the key change, perhaps I could have been more clear, which is why I recognize two different kinds of marine resource pools. Do understand that a Commander's hands would be tied if they didn't have control of Team Resources? This means they have greater permission to those resources than a marine, so a marine needs to ask for permission or the Commander is IMHO, screwed. Now I sense a tone of being condescending to this, with saying things might as well be the old way, when if my posts had been read, I would have thought it would have been quite clear I don't support the old way of doing things, its horribly frustrating.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>BYW, I think the weapons should be purchased exclusively using soldiers' money (though the commander could purchase money) Your drawing indicates that the commander would buy the weapons. I just wanted to point out that difference before it would cause confusion.</b> Blame will always be assigned after a lost game - that isn't the point. Reread this: "It seems to me, like most people here assume that the commander is infallible: he knows what's best for the team. I disagree. The commander is just another NS2 player who can do the same mistakes and will only guess what might be best in every situation. A new NS2 commander might insist on all marines having HAs before walking in an unprotected hive, when in reality an early shotgun rush would have easily brought it down."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ugh, why did you feel the need to repeat yourself? I read that already, and had addressed that already. Sure, I didn't quote your entire post, but that was for the sake of shortening an already lengthy post. Look I get it, and I am sure my previous posts indicate that, so I'll state this for clarities sake: A Template is SUGGESTIVE, it does not change that a marine is picking the weapons out. The only time a Commander has to take responsibility is when the Team's Resources are being impacted. The rest of the time, marines can just go select whatever they want, and spend it from their own individual resource pool. Sure, the Commander is not going to be the best at every situation, but certainly a Commander's Templates (aka Suggestions in Picture Form and for a speedy equipment selection) come from a knowledge of the entire battle taking place on the map! There is information that the marine is just not seeing when they go to select their load out that a Commander can give them through the use of templates and the numbers of those roles that have been filled.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the cost of weapons is easily accessible (especially when dead), it shouldn't be a problem: check price, make decision, buy. Technically, yes, someone might screw one player by a whooping 1 res, IF two teammates decide to get the same weapon he did - but they could avoid this loss by getting a different gun <b>(my idea encourages diverse load-out).</b> <i>This is a big thing, and definitely needs to be improved in NS2.</i> I had already posted on this, but you might have overlooked it:
<b>If the marines know what guns their teammates carry, they could make much better decisions.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't try to downplay it with "someone might screw one player by a whooping 1 res", I was working off of what you had previously posted: "make weapon's cost go up, the more of its type are out. How it might work: 1st and 2nd SG cost 10, but 3rd is 11, and when 3 shotguns are on a team, the 4th is 12 and so on." And so on means that it wouldn't be just 1 res, the bigger a team gets, the bigger that "screw" gets. Sure, as you say, there would be Commander researched discounts ... but doesn't that cost resources? Where is the Commander getting these resources, I thought the marines had complete control over that now and it was all spent on increasely more expensive shotguns ... even though we have no clue if HMGs or whatever else have been researched and had the right structures built for them yet. The more I think about it, the more screwing with the cost of weapons to influence the marine's buying in combination with a Commander having no say in how the resources are spent, the less and less I like it. Of course, perhaps I am just in a mood now since I feel not listened to and missed something like you mentioning that the there are two different types of resource pools...
My additions to the Request idea encourages diverse load out too, think about it, I certainly did and could have sworn I posted those thoughts already.
I get the distinct impression that it is not being recognized I am proposing compromise between Full Commander Equipment Drop and Full Marine Equipment Drop. That is why its called Requests, the two parties coming to an agreement without having to shout at each other over the mic (if they both own one) or chat, to cast dark clouds on everyone else game play fun.
Dark RageJoin Date: 2007-12-05Member: 63081Members
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree this could work for some weapons like the shotgun but what about a progression of tech? Once you have HMG, GL, and FT why would anyone pick anything else? If these weapons become low-powered enough to give out freely what's the point of researching the HMG and GL when you all ready have the shotgun? You'd run into the same problems with HA and JP. And limiters limit the comm as well as the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You would still have progression of tech. Each research level would put you further into the game and later game when you need to have the advanced weaponry. I am not for nerfing the weapons I want to see a balanced approach. For example, shotguns would be total crap at distance and only effective in close to midrange combat. Flamethrowers would suck against aliens but would melt away chambers and DI. GL's could have friendly fire effects as to limit their uses in groups. HMG's would be the last tech progression so that if you managed to get to that point you are late game when you absolutely need those weapons. People would naturally start to use the weapon they find the most fun and are good at. Not everyone would like FT's, and not everyone likes a GL, and you can manage to make the LMG and shotgun balanced so one is not necessarily better than the other. Balance the game so that a good blend of weapons is NEEDED.
I think HA and JP should still be managed by the comm (meaning he individually drops those). Having limits on the number of weapons is not necessarily a bad thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1664603:date=Dec 19 2007, 11:09 AM:name=Dark Rage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dark Rage @ Dec 19 2007, 11:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having limits on the number of weapons is not necessarily a bad thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but limits on the number of weapons in the field does not help Commander strategies and also promotes in-fighting amongst the marines for particular weapons.
I do not understand how a correlation between the balancing act of strengths - weaknesses of equipment and limiting the numbers of that equipment have anything to do with each other. If a marine team thinks its fun to use only grenade launchers and nothing else, why stop them? Perhaps the Kharaa were big on structures that match. *shrug*
I just don't get why anyone would want to limit the game this way. If anything, I thought we wanted to get rid of limits in NS2.
I'll try to keep my posts short from now on, addressing one thing at a time. This thread is getting big, so I would like to start putting up summaries of suggested ideas on the original post. This should allow new posters to get a sense of what we're talking about and quickly jump to idea's they're interested in.
/off-topic post at CanadianWolverine I think there is a communication problem between us. Until now the posts went "I criticize your idea, then suggest mine," then "you defend/improve you idea and criticize mine." There might seem to be sense that these ideas are opposite each other and we're fighting for which is better - this is not at all what i intended! My pointing out flaws is so your idea can be improved and i respect all flaws you point out in my ideas and try to respond to them. From this process both ideas are improving. I will try to keep my posts separate: one addresses your idea and another mine. I think what you suggest is very useful, but there are things that need to be worked out beforehand - but again, i'll mention it in a separate post... Now to the issue of repeating oneself and exchanging ideas better. <!--quoteo(post=1664602:date=Dec 19 2007, 11:04 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 19 2007, 11:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664602"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ugh, why did you feel the need to repeat yourself? I read that already, and had addressed that already. Sure, I didn't quote your entire post, but that was for the sake of shortening an already lengthy post. Look I get it, and I am sure my previous posts indicate that, so I'll state this for clarities sake: A Template is SUGGESTIVE, it does not change that a marine is picking the weapons out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason i asked you to reread that part is, because you quoted it but didn't respond to it right after the quote. [Your response "I find this kind of funny, we know this scenario already happens, when players want to ###### at each other, they just do" refers to first part of the quoted statement but not "The commander is just another NS2 player who can do the same mistakes and will only guess what might be best in every situation."]
Quoting is useful to let me know <i>exactly </i>what you're responding to, so shorter is actually better. I made this an intentionally bad quote to show you my point: I have covered why i thought you needed to reread, but did I finally understand that "Template is SUGGESTIVE"? - you wouldn't know! (I will respond later in more detail, but - yes i got it)
Highlighting some parts in my last post helped me see what you responded to. Sometimes, though, quotes contained 2 or more ideas, which makes things more complicated: You quoted my Question about where the template would be, but didn't directly answer it. What am i supposed to make of it? You did mention that the request system wouldn't kick in, but that makes me responsible to understand that this is your response to my Q - this is where misunderstandings occur. Because you highlighted it, though, it made it easier - it would be even easier if you put my Q into a separate quote and respond to that - fewer misunderstandings. Alright, i'll respond to the actual content of your post later.
<!--quoteo(post=1664654:date=Dec 19 2007, 07:04 PM:name=afratnikov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov @ Dec 19 2007, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it would be even easier if you put my Q into a separate quote and respond to that - fewer misunderstandings. Alright, i'll respond to the actual content of your post later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, ok, shorter quotes, sounds reasonable to me. Glad we both are seeking out discussion.
Hmm, lets see here...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Q: where would the marine soldiers see what templates they're supposed to use? They should be easily accessible and yet not block the view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now where did I put that picture I made for us... This is supposed to represent a sketch of a possible Marine Getting Equipment menu: <a href="http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=marinefillsrequestsq6.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9744/marinefillsrequestsq6.th.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
Lets see here, in the top right corner of the ms paint picture, I placed a section called "Commands". Perhaps it could be called Suggestions, but *shrug* as long as the point is got across to the Marine, I don't mind much what it is called. In it, it outlines selections, these selections are Templates the Commander made or perhaps that the developers have put there by default, below each selection is the number of requested filled by other players / number of template requested for the team. I suppose it could be like red for 0, yellow for partly filled, and green if it is already filled. This won't stop a Marine from clicking a template, it just acts as a suggestive indicator. The template really serves a second purpose, quick load out. Instead of selecting each peice of equipment individually, the marine clicks the template, has it filled out for them instantly and clicks either request resources or use personal resource pool - or whatever says the same thing but shorter.
I am seeking a situation where thinks take as fast as it takes to click and done, off to fighting the Kharaa again. Click click, done, move on and back to the action, for both Commander and Marine. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Ok, I have read all of the above and man that’s a lot so I will try to keep this quick and simple which seems to not be the current theme.
Overview: Truly there is no need to add "money" into it, from a balancing perspective it would be better to simply divert a small portion of the total teams res flow into the soldiers. Marines need to earn "res" for items via kills AND team play (welding, building, following waypoints). This can be adjusted in Beta for balance more easily, and no I don’t buy the line that this makes marines more like aliens. The COM can toggle between all RES coming into the COM’s pool (very early game when you are trying to cap RES and get upgrades or when under the final stages of an alien win) to sharing the res out at different rates depending on the flow.
COMS view: The entire idea of this is to reduce the amount of SG's etc that the com has to issue out so that they can concentrate on the front line, not eliminate it all together. Therefore there needs to be multiple ways of issuing equipment not just one. The current method should stand but also include dropping items or packs of items directly into the AA for a first come first served basis. A button to allocate RES to the entire team for self selection during rush’s (and another button to allocate "res" AA and proto lab if money is used instead) and finally an Auto equip option where the COM enters a RES value and marines can get what ever they want providing the COM’s RES pool is above this number (possibly a tech?). This way the COM can select a style of play that suits them and benefits the team. (See my post in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102260&st=20" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....02260&st=20</a> for interface details)
Grunts view: I'm very experienced (maybe not good but defiantly experienced) at NS and I know what needs to be done with little direction from the COM (although I do obey 99% of the time coz it’s the COM) so I want to be able to change my weapons and equipment, depending on what the battle field requires. By clicking on the AA I should get a text list of the available items (deducted from my on RES pool first), selecting a GL returns my SG to the AA and I only pay the diff. Dropping my damaged HA off very slowly repairs it (if damaged) while I shoot around in my new JP to make a solo run for a siege location. So the above works for me well with this addition: I want to have 3-4 "templates" via the pop up menu for quick selection.
- Player presses 'E' on arms lab and a holographic menu pops up displaying what guns they can choose.. And ofcourse in limiting the flow of guns being consumed, maybe every five weapons or so consumed depletes some resources.
- With the holographic menu, pressing 'E' to access it, walking away to berid of it. And the style buying the weapon is simply pointing at what you would like to purchase which gets highlighted, then clicking to purchase.
the holographical thing could be cool. but should be optionable for the "pros" so you can chose easier/quicker aswell without having cool graphics/animations
as far as all these posts go, id rather not have the most skilled players get better equipment then the rest of the team, you all know what happens in NS1 when the good player gets maxed out while the other players are unequipped and it becomes nearly impossible to kill him.
<!--quoteo(post=1664848:date=Dec 21 2007, 08:33 PM:name=Skware)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Skware @ Dec 21 2007, 08:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as far as all these posts go, id rather not have the most skilled players get better equipment then the rest of the team, you all know what happens in NS1 when the good player gets maxed out while the other players are unequipped and it becomes nearly impossible to kill him.
just to provide more insight into the ideas<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> at the moment the comm can chose whos the best to give weapons to, so his res are not totally wasted. its better for the team and especially for PCWs its VERY important that especially the better players have access to weapons, no matter via a system or comm. they need access to higher the teams effecienty that doesnt mean bad players should not get weapons at all, it just means bad players should not get as much or expensiv weaps as better ones. its in the teams interest imo xD
Adding a "money system" to the game makes it seem like you are no longer space marines, and you are mercenaries. The military never has and probably never will require regulars to buy their own weapons and armor. Mercs and bount hunters sure, but military? That's never going to happen.
I could see them allowing us to skin our characters, that would be great, like certain armor parts [chest plates, helmets and shoulders/arms], but regular military folk buying weapons? That sounds ######.
<!--quoteo(post=1664851:date=Dec 21 2007, 08:43 PM:name=c0ke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(c0ke @ Dec 21 2007, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->at the moment the comm can chose whos the best to give weapons to, so his res are not totally wasted. its better for the team and especially for PCWs its VERY important that especially the better players have access to weapons, no matter via a system or comm. they need access to higher the teams effecienty that doesnt mean bad players should not get weapons at all, it just means bad players should not get as much or expensiv weaps as better ones. its in the teams interest imo xD
and just fair!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
New players can't get good untill they have a chance, certainly throwing res at them is not a good idea but they should be able to earn them. As a com when my backs against the wall is only the good players I give items to. However, the rest of the time its an even spread and not a favorite's club. Its not "fair" if the popular players get all the items.
Also consider this: Many of the players with high kill counts simply are the ones who hang back and let the others attack first. They don't take the hits and pick off the wondend aliens. This does not make them a better player, infact in my option worse as if you had a team full of them you would not be nearly aggressive enough. Therefore its not "fair" for them to get the upgrades while the true team players don't.
<!--quoteo(post=1664874:date=Dec 22 2007, 06:16 AM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Dec 22 2007, 06:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664874"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also consider this: Many of the players with high kill counts simply are the ones who hang back and let the others attack first. They don't take the hits and pick off the wondend aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you being serious?
i liked the idea of the comm buying a stash of weapons, and giving marines 'points' or 'credits' to acquire guns from the cache. The credit income for each player would default to 4/min or something but the comm could change it or dish it out as he sees fit (or set it to infinite for competitive games).
Dark RageJoin Date: 2007-12-05Member: 63081Members
Thats why I recommended the commander setting a percentage of his res supply towards weapons. If you are doing awesome as a marine team and have tons of res you can set the slider higher to allow more buying. The marines would walk up to the armory and could buy weapons that have been researched.
You could simultaneously keep the original system and allow the commander to drop weapons individually if he chooses to. If the comm wants to rush he could move the slider to allow all purchases (up to the res he has). If someone wants to buy another weapon during the rush they could (as long as it is researched and res is there). Or have an unlock armory button that would do the same thing and let all available res go towards guns.
Like I have said before HA/JP should still be dropped individually.
Well fellas, just a thought. Maybe the weapons are set by the commander, BUT the marines are allowed to augment their stuff by using res/credits/money systm? This doesn't rob the commander of his powers, since noone would listen to him after they got an HMG anyways, but it would give them a feel of freedom of choice. So when you get X amount of kills. or do X amount of damage you are given some sort of rank/money/res/credits, and with those you buy nightvision, speed boosts, extra health packs, upgraded nades, armor upgrades, something like that? Almost like combat, but not combat. Just the upgrades which allow people a little choice to help their weaknesses and boost their strengths.
For me, I usually suck at aiming, but I am good at movement and making decisions. So I would benifit from a weapons damage upgrade. Maybe someone is good at aiming, but he hates walking everywhere. He could get a speed increase upgrade, kinda like catalyst. Some people prefer night vision, so they might choose those over using a flashlight and playing the guessing game.
If overdone it would feel like combat and it seems like it would run the risk of taking too much decision making away from the commander, but I think it would also allow players a way to upgrade themselves a little. Sorta customize their characters.
<!--quoteo(post=1664874:date=Dec 22 2007, 06:16 AM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Dec 22 2007, 06:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664874"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->New players can't get good untill they have a chance, certainly throwing res at them is not a good idea but they should be able to earn them. As a com when my backs against the wall is only the good players I give items to. However, the rest of the time its an even spread and not a favorite's club. Its not "fair" if the popular players get all the items.
Also consider this: Many of the players with high kill counts simply are the ones who hang back and let the others attack first. They don't take the hits and pick off the wondend aliens. This does not make them a better player, infact in my option worse as if you had a team full of them you would not be nearly aggressive enough. Therefore its not "fair" for them to get the upgrades while the true team players don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1664884:date=Dec 22 2007, 10:13 AM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 22 2007, 10:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you being serious?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely. Have you never noticed that on the pubs? Several players come up to a doorway where they know aliens are waiting on the other side. They all then hover around, making like they are going to run through but pulling back at the last minute until another player (normaly one who arrives to 2-3 marines already there) does. This player gets a few rounds off and gets hit (normaly killed) while the wimpy players get to shoot the alien who has popped into view. Now if they sometimes ran through themselves this would be ok but I know players who constantly do this. Why? because they love to bounce around the ready room after the match pointing to their high kill ratios. Even if it means expensive of the win. These players hardly ever build in comparison to the rest of the team as that means exposing themselves via putting their gun away. Now I know that some one has to cover (in certain times) but ffs do your share!
Thus, earning the right to buy a gun in the new system should be earned via all aspects of team play and not just kills. Don't get me wrong, it should not go to the lemmings either!
Baiting other marines is called playing smart. The most effective tactic in NS is to always have a bait, whether on aliens or marines. Its more apparent on aliens because you can keep a marine's aim trained a certain direction and make him oblivious to skulks coming from other places. On marines, one player has to take charge and move ahead while other marines do their best to kill the aliens chewing on him. If all marines walk in at once, their hitboxes will block each other's bullets and skulks will be free to munch on an all-you-can-eat buffet.
Smart marines will assess situations and never walk into ambushes, they'll make the ambushers come to them. OR they'll make someone else trigger that ambush just so they can advance ahead and move closer to spawn camping baddies.
<!--quoteo(post=1664980:date=Dec 23 2007, 11:48 AM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 23 2007, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Baiting other marines is called playing smart. The most effective tactic in NS is to always have a bait, whether on aliens or marines. Its more apparent on aliens because you can keep a marine's aim trained a certain direction and make him oblivious to skulks coming from other places. On marines, one player has to take charge and move ahead while other marines do their best to kill the aliens chewing on him. If all marines walk in at once, their hitboxes will block each other's bullets and skulks will be free to munch on an all-you-can-eat buffet.
Smart marines will assess situations and never walk into ambushes, they'll make the ambushers come to them. OR they'll make someone else trigger that ambush just so they can advance ahead and move closer to spawn camping baddies.
Remember, always bait your teammates in pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed but certain players never play the bait only the trap. Thats my point!, not that baiting is a bad idea or strat!
Comments
/offtopic: best NSPlayers don't stay with groups, they run straight into the hive vaporizing any and all walker skulks along their way and maximizing their kills/min by reducing travel time from them to their victim to 0.
RFK & RF building RTs should be the only means of receiving more money without the commander paying you $$ himself.
Yeah, you're right. I guess i was idealizing too much
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RFK & RF building RTs should be the only means of receiving more money without the commander paying you $$ himself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please elaborate.
The main reason to allow the comm handing out weapons is to let him call rushes with fully equipped marines. If only marines can get their gun, the commander won't be able to do beacon/hive rush or other full-scale attacks. Instead, he will have to rely on marines to save their money for the right moment.
If I understand the amazing frame work that Unknown Worlds have implemented with LUA, through what they have blogged and pod casted, may I respectfully suggest that any notion of how difficult something is to implement has been tossed right out the window, because they have cut their time to implement ideas by such an incredibly exponential amount.
Basicly, what I am saying is, let the Devs decide how tough something would be to implement. What I propose our purpose is as dedicated fans is the clear and concise presentation of ideas, to hash out the pros and cons of those ideas, and learn from one another through constructive critical process.
Hehe, that doesn't sound so basic after all, let me try again: Throw no idea out and let us all be nice as we share our opinions to improve a game we are dedicated fans of.
In the end, I proposed what I proposed only because I wish to see a better frame work for what Commanders and Marines do with each other already, with such examples as trying to give weapons to the players that use them effectively, accomplishing tactical decisions balanced against strategic decisions, and presenting a easy to understand system for the noob in all of us, so that we might all enjoy plenty of fun virtually out playing each other, like some fantastic shiny game of paper rock scissors.
I can understand what you are meaning by the Commander adjusting values, but here is my counter point to that: Would you have fun as a commander playing a spread sheet? Messing with the numbers? Or would a Commander have more fun showing pictures and symbols to the Marines? What are the chances in a system of "buy value" that it could have fun ruined through a griefer or perceived to be "noob" commander? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
The Kharaa currently hate it when a gorge makes a decision that effects their game's strategic outcome, but on a tactical level they still pick their upgrade. The marines are no different, they hate it when a commander hurts their tactical decisions on the ground for the strategic over-all plan. There are two keys to solving this problem that I can see: Communication & System. Currently, Kharaa have the system and lack the communication, the marines have the communication and lack the system. All I am proposing is facilitating fun, not taking it away, I hope that makes sense <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Your ideas needs to be fleshed in a lot more detail. Right now, i only have a very vague idea of how it might work.
Request forms:
How will these work?
Templates:
What information will templates have? Who makes them?
Will there be pre-made templates such as HA+SG+Welder? - this would create huge screen full of all the different combinations
OR will the comm create them on the fly? - Considering this will take comm's time out of doing other important tasks - how much time would it take?
What special UI components will help the comm make templates?
Finally, what motive will marines have to follow these templates? After a lost match i can see something like this occur:
Comm: well, you lost because you didn't follow my templates.
Marines: no we lost because you suck and your templates were useless.
Comm: you see, you needed HA/SGs/welder to kill the hive and you lost because you didn't do like i told you!
Marines: the onos protecting the hive would have eaten us! We needed JP/HMGs to finish him. We lost because you didn't research JP!
...and so on
It seems to me, like most people here assume that the commander is infallible: he knows what's best for the team.
I disagree. The commander is just another NS2 player who can do the same mistakes and will only guess what might be best in every situation. A new NS2 commander might insist on all marines having HAs before walking in an unprotected hive, when in reality an early shotgun rush would have easily brought it down.
Also, i want to be clear: i'm not against this idea - I just need more information.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I propose our purpose is as dedicated fans is the clear and concise presentation of ideas, to hash out the pros and cons of those ideas, and learn from one another through constructive critical process.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree with that.
<!--quoteo(post=1664503:date=Dec 17 2007, 07:43 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 17 2007, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I understand the amazing frame work that Unknown Worlds have implemented with LUA, through what they have blogged and pod casted, may I respectfully suggest that any notion of how difficult something is to implement has been tossed right out the window, because they have cut their time to implement ideas by such an incredibly exponential amount.
Basicly, what I am saying is, let the Devs decide how tough something would be to implement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Complexity of every idea needs to be considered: easy-to implement idea is a big pro, since it can be quickly set up, tested, and adjusted to make the game better. This does NOT mean complex ideas should be dismissed - however, they DO need to be clear, detailed, and improve the game significantly. LUA makes work easier, but all proposed ideas will have to be first written and then play-tested. The stuff i proposed only requires messing with the prices a bit and could be done in one evening (: just create a simple function to the item prices and a counter to weapons equipped). Creating templates, request forms, and a squad mechanic would require a lot more work - but the benefits may be worth it: so, let's explore it more.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can understand what you are meaning by the Commander adjusting values, but here is my counter point to that: Would you have fun as a commander playing a spread sheet? Messing with the numbers? Or would a Commander have more fun showing pictures and symbols to the Marines? What are the chances in a system of "buy value" that it could have fun ruined through a griefer or perceived to be "noob" commander? wink-fix.gif<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The commander won't play with spread sheets. His only choice will be to decide one weapon that will be less expensive to marines - that's it. The marines will have to figure out what weapon to get based on prices, which will be constantly changing. At one point the SG may cost 15 res (because of a hive rush everyone has one), another it's just 8 res (because everyoen has better weapons and commander forgot to change the discount).
The comm won't show fun pictures, instead the marines will be intrinsically motivated to follow the strategy he lay out: Comm chooses to make HMGs cheaper to counter fades and onos. When choosing a weapon a marine stops to think: I really like a shotgun (10res), but the HMG (15-3=12res) is almost as cheap and a lot more powerful. The marine might choose the shotgun, because he enjoys it, or get the HMG because it's best bang for his buck.
Griefers and noob-commanders will ruin any fun. However, here the comm actually can't mess up much: so the griefer comm chooses to discount the GL - still everyone can buy the weapons they like at normal price - they just don't get a discount. And the comm has no control over how many weapons are out.
Please offer more constructive criticism to this idea to improve it.
Your ideas needs to be fleshed in a lot more detail. Right now, i only have a very vague idea of how it might work.
Request forms:
How will these work?
Templates:
What information will templates have? Who makes them?
Will there be pre-made templates such as HA+SG+Welder? - this would create huge screen full of all the different combinations
OR will the comm create them on the fly? - Considering this will take comm's time out of doing other important tasks - how much time would it take?
What special UI components will help the comm make templates?
Finally, what motive will marines have to follow these templates?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since words don't always get things across as well as I like, I went to MS Paint, to sketch some pictures of what a request system could look like.
Commander Builds Template:
<a href="http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=commanderbuildstemplatefk3.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/9889/commanderbuildstemplatefk3.th.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
Marine Asks For Equipment:
<a href="http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=marinefillsrequestsq6.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9744/marinefillsrequestsq6.th.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
Commander Gets Request To Use Resources:
<a href="http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=commandseesrequestuv6.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/2682/commandseesrequestuv6.th.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
For these rough sketches, assume that the mouse is used, you single click to select or unselect , and that a commander can not be spammed by a player. And that the selection screens are opaque aka see through.
A piece of equipment not researched yet or otherwise meeting some requirement, such as a structure or resources available, will not be selectable for request. Also, pieces of equipment already in the possession of the marine are not factored into the cost of the resource request but may reduce the cost if the current equipment is being recycled so the marine can use new equipment.
Further, the template when clicked - fills the request completely in one click. The number beneath a template button is showing the number of other players using that template / the number the commander has requested to be in the team. Also, may I suggest their be a reward to your score for choosing a Command, as a bit of motivation <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Ideally, this process should take a Commander no more than a few seconds, click click, done. And really, it will be limited to his current research level. When research finishes, perhaps he could be asked "Would you like to update Equipment Templates?" And when receiving a request, again, the process should be no more than see blinking request in bottom corner, click, scan request, click yes or request lower cost. Notice I suggest not saying no to the marine, just expressing a concern that it drains resources too much at that time.
Also, I am using the word templates, but perhaps it could be called loadout or whatever sounds best to get the idea across that you are not forcing someone else to do this, it is a suggestion, albeit a good suggestion based on the Commanders knowledge of resources, strategic plan, and current level of research.
In addition, I do like the idea of marines earning stuff too. Basicly, the only reason there needs to be a request is because the purchase from the armory could hurt the team's resources, if a marine has a tiny piggy bank of their own resources, plus can recycle old equipment for a discount on new equipment, then you don't need to pester the Commander with a request, just go pick up the stuff. Only thing it might affect would be if you are fulfilling a Command Template, in which case the Commander and the team should know that a role is filled or not.
I kind of think of templates like an extension of the current score board in NS1, where you see a symbol for the weapon a player is holding, so that you know what your fellow marine is capable of. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After a lost match i can see something like this occur:
Comm: well, you lost because you didn't follow my templates.
Marines: no we lost because you suck and your templates were useless.
Comm: you see, you needed HA/SGs/welder to kill the hive and you lost because you didn't do like i told you!
Marines: the onos protecting the hive would have eaten us! We needed JP/HMGs to finish him. We lost because you didn't research JP!
...and so on
It seems to me, like most people here assume that the commander is infallible: he knows what's best for the team.
I disagree. The commander is just another NS2 player who can do the same mistakes and will only guess what might be best in every situation. A new NS2 commander might insist on all marines having HAs before walking in an unprotected hive, when in reality an early shotgun rush would have easily brought it down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find this kind of funny, we know this scenario already happens, when players want to ###### at each other, they just do. So, I don't see how changing values would alleviate this situation either. In fact, constantly changing values can be pretty frustrating and regardless of cost a player could still pick their favourite weapon and screw the team out of more res than usual, yes? This situation cuts both ways and really, the only way I see it being gentled and soften the blow some is to make sure the lines of communication between a commander and his marines are open and clear.
*By template i not only refer to HMG+HA or SG+welder, but also to the number of such marine load-outs the comm requests.
<i>Templates are too static.</i> In NS the situation is constantly changing and no template will stay the same for 2 minutes of the game, because of 1) new research 2) lost marines 3) new alien forms 4) strategy change.
The time spent by the commander making and adjusting the templates probably won't be worth it. He could simply say "get JPs," when they're researched, or "rush with SGs" instead of creating new templates when JP is researched and asking the team to get 3xSG and 2xSG+Welder. Also, if the template is 3xHA+SG, but there is only 30res, should one marines take 1HA+SG or three marines one SG each? The comm usually doesn't have the res to keep all his marines equipped, so it's not "Team needs to have 3HMG and 2SG" but rather "Team needs 1 more HMG" (hope this makes sense...). Templates are very inflexible and would require a lot of managing if they are to correctly reflect the needs. And even after all that work, the marines still might not see or choose to ignore them. BTW, one more Q: where would the marine soldiers see what templates they're supposed to use? They should be easily accessible and yet not block the view.
Another big problem is: your idea keeps the commander responsible for supervising and deciding, in great detail, what weapons marines have. He might as well just drop weapons directly on people or drop them in sets, just like in NS1. The key change in weapon distribution from NS1-NS2 is that the soldiers decide what weapons they have - not the commander.
BYW, I think the weapons should be purchased exclusively using soldiers' money (though the commander could purchase money) Your drawing indicates that the commander would buy the weapons. I just wanted to point out that difference before it would cause confusion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find this kind of funny, we know this scenario already happens, when players want to ###### at each other, they just do. So, I don't see how changing values would alleviate this situation either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blame will always be assigned after a lost game - that isn't the point. Reread this: "It seems to me, like most people here assume that the commander is infallible: he knows what's best for the team. I disagree. The commander is just another NS2 player who can do the same mistakes and will only guess what might be best in every situation. A new NS2 commander might insist on all marines having HAs before walking in an unprotected hive, when in reality an early shotgun rush would have easily brought it down."
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact, constantly changing values can be pretty frustrating and regardless of cost a player could still pick their favourite weapon and screw the team out of more res than usual, yes? This situation cuts both ways and really, the only way I see it being gentled and soften the blow some is to ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the cost of weapons is easily accessible (especially when dead), it shouldn't be a problem: check price, make decision, buy. Technically, yes, someone might screw one player by a whooping 1 res, IF two teammates decide to get the same weapon he did - but they could avoid this loss by getting a different gun (my idea encourages diverse load-out).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->make sure the lines of communication between a commander and his marines are open and clear.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a big thing, and definitely needs to be improved in NS2. I had already posted on this, but you might have overlooked it:
<!--quoteo(post=1664089:date=Dec 15 2007, 09:03 AM:name=afratnikov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov @ Dec 15 2007, 09:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the your comm-request idea, and I have an idea how it might be implemented. The comm could have a special marine screen, similar to the scoreboard, but with extra info including: 1) Current weapon 2) Amount of money 3) active requests. The commander could directly interact through this screen giving meds/ammo and respond with "yes/no" to requests.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marines know what guns their teammates carry, they could make much better decisions.
I have one problem with rines earning weapons in any form. tking. if friendly fire is on the following could happen. elite rine earns beg shiny gun. walks down corridor, gets shot in the back of the head by noob. Now noob has big shiny gun. I spose you could turn off ff period. but ff on some servers can encourage rines to think before they fire. or droped weapons could disapear but this would waste alot of res. Currently on ns u dont get alot of vindictive tking but a weapons earning system may encourage one.
I agree that a comm needs to be able to drop gear for specific rushes still.
on how the 20-100% available is distributed amongst the rines it could be a first come first served system. you go to army area spend res on weapons and leave wen its gone its gone, until more generates. It could be evenly distributed like aliens, or it could be based on rines points. The problem with a points system is it encourages points farming. if the points system encourages team work it may work. Problem with even distribution - unless loads of res take ages to get any guns. also similar to aliens. problem with first come first served. player could spend all res and not leave any for other players.
a request system isnt a good idea in my opinion. cos it wudnt be to dissimilar to current system - "comm i need a sg" "no".
it wud mean bureaucracy for the comm. slow down his game play. Also it moves the impoteus from the player to the comm. atm a comm drops guns. if u don't get a gun he may be busy or he maybe saving res, or maybe he just doesn't like you. if its a request that you have sent and he denys you, how dare he, he lets others have guns, and he cant just not have noticed cos he got a form. he actively denied me rather than on the current system passively denied. this could make players more angry with comm.
Balancing would not be that difficult as you have several options. You could set a limit on the number of guns allowed on a team, or prestige/stats/ratios would determine if you could handle a new gun, or simply tweak the damage of the guns so they are all viable options but have different purposes, or like i mentioned make the research costs significant.
This system would eliminate 90% of the problems of the current system of the comm having total control (and marines flaming the comm for not dropping him a shotgun 1 minute into the game). If marines want to rush they have to all choose to get that gun and work together. I think marines would want a more balanced approach anyway. This also would help late game because as you tech up and have all the weapons researched each marine can essentially pick what he wants.
Balancing would not be that difficult as you have several options. You could set a limit on the number of guns allowed on a team, or prestige/stats/ratios would determine if you could handle a new gun, or simply tweak the damage of the guns so they are all viable options but have different purposes, or like i mentioned make the research costs significant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree this could work for some weapons like the shotgun but what about a progression of tech? Once you have HMG, GL, and FT why would anyone pick anything else? If these weapons become low-powered enough to give out freely what's the point of researching the HMG and GL when you all ready have the shotgun? You'd run into the same problems with HA and JP. And limiters limit the comm as well as the marines.
I'm thinking this through so I'm going restate the goals:
Marines get the weapons they're best with regularly.
Comm can't spend a lot of time on divvying weapons.
Comm needs to be able to hand out specific weapons at specific times(ie a shotgun rush).
Here's my proposal building on those before me:
Each marine starts with a personal res allowance(let's say 5, or enough to buy a welder)
This res is not res personally owned, it is res credit.
Whenever a marine gets a kill/assist/kills an rt he/she gets 1/.5/2 res credits respectively.
The comm has two res pools that he can move res from/too: the comm pool and the equipment pool.
If a marine has enough credit he can buy from the equipment pool.
Once the marine has used the credit, it is gone and will either need to build more credit by killing aliens or helping the comm.
If there's no res in the equipment pool, nothing can be purchased by marines.
The comm can raise(and maybe lower) credit for individual marines as needed.
There is a raise global button so the comm can click that 15 times to ensure everyone has enough credit for a shotgun welder rush.
Edit: their != they're
<!--quoteo(post=1664585:date=Dec 19 2007, 06:12 AM:name=afratnikov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov @ Dec 19 2007, 06:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When first reading your idea, i had my misgivings, but now I can pinpoint what it is: <b>it's too static and same thing can be accomplished using text/voice</b>
*By template i not only refer to HMG+HA or SG+welder, but also to <b>the number of</b> such marine load-outs the comm requests.
<i>Templates are too static.</i> In NS the situation is constantly changing and no template will stay the same for 2 minutes of the game, because of 1) new research 2) lost marines 3) new alien forms 4) strategy change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er, you did read notes after the MS paint sketches, yes? I am going to assume you did, so maybe it needs clarification: A request system will not be a "request" if the Commander can just deny everything. The system is just supposed to be symbolic of what Commanders already do, as you describe is done with voice communication (and text might I add). Here is the downside to the old way you describe, constantly repeating yourself. Instead, using templates, you do it and leave it.
Also, just to clarify, I also think a request system fails if it does not allow for marines to get equipment outside of Commander approval. Here is the reason for needing Commander approval, it affects the whole team. This means, for it to properly work, there needs to be Team Resource Pool and a Marine's Individual Resource Piggy Bank. This relates to Invader Zim's and Kissaminos' posts, which I agree with, Res Flow Percentage Pie, because it acknowledges the need for and to manage two different kinds of resource pools.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>The time spent by the commander making and adjusting the templates probably won't be worth it.</b> He could simply say "get JPs," when they're researched, or "rush with SGs" instead of creating new templates when JP is researched and asking the team to get 3xSG and 2xSG+Welder. Also, if the template is 3xHA+SG, but there is only 30res, should one marines take 1HA+SG or three marines one SG each? The comm usually doesn't have the res to keep all his marines equipped, so it's not "Team needs to have 3HMG and 2SG" but rather "Team needs 1 more HMG" (hope this makes sense...). <b>Templates are very inflexible and would require a lot of managing if they are to correctly reflect the needs.</b> And even after all that work, the marines still might not see or choose to ignore them. BTW, one more <b>Q: where would the marine soldiers see what templates they're supposed to use? They should be easily accessible and yet not block the view.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I see it, the Templates take less time and less managing than you are representing here. I am pretty sure I covered this potential problem already as well, where really a Template should only require at most a couple clicks from the Commander and a similar case for the Marine. There is no need for a complicated system, its supposed to facilitate, not hinder. There are poor, inaccurate, inefficient systems and their are good ones. Who wants a bad one? Not me, that's for sure, I've had enough of that in NS1. I feel that there are complexities and inflexibilities that are being assumed. Either the system is built flexible or it is not, and I hope it is built flexible.
Were you aware signs for international tourists deal mostly in pictures and symbols to get across ideas? The Templates / Requests / Buy Menu have a great potential to this as well. Clear and concise.
Okay, I'm not sure if I am being clear here or if it just wasn't read in my previous post, but the whole request / template thing only really kicks in if a Marine is trying to buy with TEAM RESOURCES. They can do whatever the heck they want with their own resources, a Commander has to consider the impact of how Team Resources are used on every marine, to take that out of his hands would be one very frustrated Commander, in which I would see the following scenario happening:
"Sorry guys NewPlayer1 just spent all our res on his load out, I have nothing left for structures or research"
*Commander Quits*
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>Another big problem is: your idea keeps the commander responsible for supervising and deciding, in great detail, what weapons marines have. <b>He might as well just drop weapons directly on people or drop them in sets, just like in NS1.</b> The key change in weapon distribution from NS1-NS2 is that the soldiers decide what weapons they have - not the commander.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My idea now? I thought someone else posted it first, I thought I would just add to it, but oh well... How will a Commander not be doing this anyways, only would you rather a request to be filled or just exclusively a Commander yelling into their mic (if they own one) to do this or that strategy? Look, I get the key change, perhaps I could have been more clear, which is why I recognize two different kinds of marine resource pools. Do understand that a Commander's hands would be tied if they didn't have control of Team Resources? This means they have greater permission to those resources than a marine, so a marine needs to ask for permission or the Commander is IMHO, screwed. Now I sense a tone of being condescending to this, with saying things might as well be the old way, when if my posts had been read, I would have thought it would have been quite clear I don't support the old way of doing things, its horribly frustrating.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>BYW, I think the weapons should be purchased exclusively using soldiers' money (though the commander could purchase money) Your drawing indicates that the commander would buy the weapons. I just wanted to point out that difference before it would cause confusion.</b>
Blame will always be assigned after a lost game - that isn't the point. Reread this: "It seems to me, like most people here assume that the commander is infallible: he knows what's best for the team. I disagree. The commander is just another NS2 player who can do the same mistakes and will only guess what might be best in every situation. A new NS2 commander might insist on all marines having HAs before walking in an unprotected hive, when in reality an early shotgun rush would have easily brought it down."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ugh, why did you feel the need to repeat yourself? I read that already, and had addressed that already. Sure, I didn't quote your entire post, but that was for the sake of shortening an already lengthy post. Look I get it, and I am sure my previous posts indicate that, so I'll state this for clarities sake: A Template is SUGGESTIVE, it does not change that a marine is picking the weapons out. The only time a Commander has to take responsibility is when the Team's Resources are being impacted. The rest of the time, marines can just go select whatever they want, and spend it from their own individual resource pool. Sure, the Commander is not going to be the best at every situation, but certainly a Commander's Templates (aka Suggestions in Picture Form and for a speedy equipment selection) come from a knowledge of the entire battle taking place on the map! There is information that the marine is just not seeing when they go to select their load out that a Commander can give them through the use of templates and the numbers of those roles that have been filled.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the cost of weapons is easily accessible (especially when dead), it shouldn't be a problem: check price, make decision, buy. Technically, yes, someone might screw one player by a whooping 1 res, IF two teammates decide to get the same weapon he did - but they could avoid this loss by getting a different gun <b>(my idea encourages diverse load-out).</b>
<i>This is a big thing, and definitely needs to be improved in NS2.</i> I had already posted on this, but you might have overlooked it:
<b>If the marines know what guns their teammates carry, they could make much better decisions.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't try to downplay it with "someone might screw one player by a whooping 1 res", I was working off of what you had previously posted: "make weapon's cost go up, the more of its type are out. How it might work: 1st and 2nd SG cost 10, but 3rd is 11, and when 3 shotguns are on a team, the 4th is 12 and so on." And so on means that it wouldn't be just 1 res, the bigger a team gets, the bigger that "screw" gets. Sure, as you say, there would be Commander researched discounts ... but doesn't that cost resources? Where is the Commander getting these resources, I thought the marines had complete control over that now and it was all spent on increasely more expensive shotguns ... even though we have no clue if HMGs or whatever else have been researched and had the right structures built for them yet. The more I think about it, the more screwing with the cost of weapons to influence the marine's buying in combination with a Commander having no say in how the resources are spent, the less and less I like it. Of course, perhaps I am just in a mood now since I feel not listened to and missed something like you mentioning that the there are two different types of resource pools...
My additions to the Request idea encourages diverse load out too, think about it, I certainly did and could have sworn I posted those thoughts already.
I get the distinct impression that it is not being recognized I am proposing compromise between Full Commander Equipment Drop and Full Marine Equipment Drop. That is why its called Requests, the two parties coming to an agreement without having to shout at each other over the mic (if they both own one) or chat, to cast dark clouds on everyone else game play fun.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
You would still have progression of tech. Each research level would put you further into the game and later game when you need to have the advanced weaponry. I am not for nerfing the weapons I want to see a balanced approach. For example, shotguns would be total crap at distance and only effective in close to midrange combat. Flamethrowers would suck against aliens but would melt away chambers and DI. GL's could have friendly fire effects as to limit their uses in groups. HMG's would be the last tech progression so that if you managed to get to that point you are late game when you absolutely need those weapons. People would naturally start to use the weapon they find the most fun and are good at. Not everyone would like FT's, and not everyone likes a GL, and you can manage to make the LMG and shotgun balanced so one is not necessarily better than the other. Balance the game so that a good blend of weapons is NEEDED.
I think HA and JP should still be managed by the comm (meaning he individually drops those). Having limits on the number of weapons is not necessarily a bad thing.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Sorry, but limits on the number of weapons in the field does not help Commander strategies and also promotes in-fighting amongst the marines for particular weapons.
I do not understand how a correlation between the balancing act of strengths - weaknesses of equipment and limiting the numbers of that equipment have anything to do with each other. If a marine team thinks its fun to use only grenade launchers and nothing else, why stop them? Perhaps the Kharaa were big on structures that match. *shrug*
I just don't get why anyone would want to limit the game this way. If anything, I thought we wanted to get rid of limits in NS2.
This thread is getting big, so I would like to start putting up summaries of suggested ideas on the original post. This should allow new posters to get a sense of what we're talking about and quickly jump to idea's they're interested in.
I think there is a communication problem between us. Until now the posts went "I criticize your idea, then suggest mine," then "you defend/improve you idea and criticize mine." There might seem to be sense that these ideas are opposite each other and we're fighting for which is better - this is not at all what i intended! My pointing out flaws is so your idea can be improved and i respect all flaws you point out in my ideas and try to respond to them. From this process both ideas are improving. I will try to keep my posts separate: one addresses your idea and another mine. I think what you suggest is very useful, but there are things that need to be worked out beforehand - but again, i'll mention it in a separate post...
Now to the issue of repeating oneself and exchanging ideas better.
<!--quoteo(post=1664602:date=Dec 19 2007, 11:04 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 19 2007, 11:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664602"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ugh, why did you feel the need to repeat yourself? I read that already, and had addressed that already. Sure, I didn't quote your entire post, but that was for the sake of shortening an already lengthy post. Look I get it, and I am sure my previous posts indicate that, so I'll state this for clarities sake: A Template is SUGGESTIVE, it does not change that a marine is picking the weapons out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason i asked you to reread that part is, because you quoted it but didn't respond to it right after the quote.
[Your response "I find this kind of funny, we know this scenario already happens, when players want to ###### at each other, they just do" refers to first part of the quoted statement but not "The commander is just another NS2 player who can do the same mistakes and will only guess what might be best in every situation."]
Quoting is useful to let me know <i>exactly </i>what you're responding to, so shorter is actually better. I made this an intentionally bad quote to show you my point: I have covered why i thought you needed to reread, but did I finally understand that "Template is SUGGESTIVE"? - you wouldn't know! (I will respond later in more detail, but - yes i got it)
Highlighting some parts in my last post helped me see what you responded to. Sometimes, though, quotes contained 2 or more ideas, which makes things more complicated: You quoted my Question about where the template would be, but didn't directly answer it. What am i supposed to make of it? You did mention that the request system wouldn't kick in, but that makes me responsible to understand that this is your response to my Q - this is where misunderstandings occur. Because you highlighted it, though, it made it easier - it would be even easier if you put my Q into a separate quote and respond to that - fewer misunderstandings.
Alright, i'll respond to the actual content of your post later.
Alright, i'll respond to the actual content of your post later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, ok, shorter quotes, sounds reasonable to me. Glad we both are seeking out discussion.
Hmm, lets see here...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Q: where would the marine soldiers see what templates they're supposed to use? They should be easily accessible and yet not block the view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now where did I put that picture I made for us... This is supposed to represent a sketch of a possible Marine Getting Equipment menu:
<a href="http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=marinefillsrequestsq6.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9744/marinefillsrequestsq6.th.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
Lets see here, in the top right corner of the ms paint picture, I placed a section called "Commands". Perhaps it could be called Suggestions, but *shrug* as long as the point is got across to the Marine, I don't mind much what it is called. In it, it outlines selections, these selections are Templates the Commander made or perhaps that the developers have put there by default, below each selection is the number of requested filled by other players / number of template requested for the team. I suppose it could be like red for 0, yellow for partly filled, and green if it is already filled. This won't stop a Marine from clicking a template, it just acts as a suggestive indicator. The template really serves a second purpose, quick load out. Instead of selecting each peice of equipment individually, the marine clicks the template, has it filled out for them instantly and clicks either request resources or use personal resource pool - or whatever says the same thing but shorter.
I am seeking a situation where thinks take as fast as it takes to click and done, off to fighting the Kharaa again. Click click, done, move on and back to the action, for both Commander and Marine. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Overview:
Truly there is no need to add "money" into it, from a balancing perspective it would be better to simply divert a small portion of the total teams res flow into the soldiers. Marines need to earn "res" for items via kills AND team play (welding, building, following waypoints). This can be adjusted in Beta for balance more easily, and no I don’t buy the line that this makes marines more like aliens. The COM can toggle between all RES coming into the COM’s pool (very early game when you are trying to cap RES and get upgrades or when under the final stages of an alien win) to sharing the res out at different rates depending on the flow.
COMS view:
The entire idea of this is to reduce the amount of SG's etc that the com has to issue out so that they can concentrate on the front line, not eliminate it all together. Therefore there needs to be multiple ways of issuing equipment not just one. The current method should stand but also include dropping items or packs of items directly into the AA for a first come first served basis. A button to allocate RES to the entire team for self selection during rush’s (and another button to allocate "res" AA and proto lab if money is used instead) and finally an Auto equip option where the COM enters a RES value and marines can get what ever they want providing the COM’s RES pool is above this number (possibly a tech?). This way the COM can select a style of play that suits them and benefits the team. (See my post in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102260&st=20" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....02260&st=20</a> for interface details)
Grunts view:
I'm very experienced (maybe not good but defiantly experienced) at NS and I know what needs to be done with little direction from the COM (although I do obey 99% of the time coz it’s the COM) so I want to be able to change my weapons and equipment, depending on what the battle field requires. By clicking on the AA I should get a text list of the available items (deducted from my on RES pool first), selecting a GL returns my SG to the AA and I only pay the diff. Dropping my damaged HA off very slowly repairs it (if damaged) while I shoot around in my new JP to make a solo run for a siege location. So the above works for me well with this addition: I want to have 3-4 "templates" via the pop up menu for quick selection.
- Player presses 'E' on arms lab and a holographic menu pops up displaying what guns they can choose.. And ofcourse in limiting the flow of guns being consumed, maybe every five weapons or so consumed depletes some resources.
- With the holographic menu, pressing 'E' to access it, walking away to berid of it. And the style buying the weapon is simply pointing at what you would like to purchase which gets highlighted, then clicking to purchase.
Just an idea,
Matt. =X
just to provide more insight into the ideas
just to provide more insight into the ideas<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
at the moment the comm can chose whos the best to give weapons to, so his res are not totally wasted. its better for the team
and especially for PCWs its VERY important that especially the better players have access to weapons, no matter via a system or comm. they need access to higher the teams effecienty
that doesnt mean bad players should not get weapons at all, it just means bad players should not get as much or expensiv weaps as better ones. its in the teams interest imo xD
and just fair!
I could see them allowing us to skin our characters, that would be great, like certain armor parts [chest plates, helmets and shoulders/arms], but regular military folk buying weapons? That sounds ######.
and especially for PCWs its VERY important that especially the better players have access to weapons, no matter via a system or comm. they need access to higher the teams effecienty
that doesnt mean bad players should not get weapons at all, it just means bad players should not get as much or expensiv weaps as better ones. its in the teams interest imo xD
and just fair!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
New players can't get good untill they have a chance, certainly throwing res at them is not a good idea but they should be able to earn them. As a com when my backs against the wall is only the good players I give items to. However, the rest of the time its an even spread and not a favorite's club. Its not "fair" if the popular players get all the items.
Also consider this: Many of the players with high kill counts simply are the ones who hang back and let the others attack first. They don't take the hits and pick off the wondend aliens. This does not make them a better player, infact in my option worse as if you had a team full of them you would not be nearly aggressive enough. Therefore its not "fair" for them to get the upgrades while the true team players don't.
Are you being serious?
You could simultaneously keep the original system and allow the commander to drop weapons individually if he chooses to. If the comm wants to rush he could move the slider to allow all purchases (up to the res he has). If someone wants to buy another weapon during the rush they could (as long as it is researched and res is there). Or have an unlock armory button that would do the same thing and let all available res go towards guns.
Like I have said before HA/JP should still be dropped individually.
For me, I usually suck at aiming, but I am good at movement and making decisions. So I would benifit from a weapons damage upgrade. Maybe someone is good at aiming, but he hates walking everywhere. He could get a speed increase upgrade, kinda like catalyst. Some people prefer night vision, so they might choose those over using a flashlight and playing the guessing game.
If overdone it would feel like combat and it seems like it would run the risk of taking too much decision making away from the commander, but I think it would also allow players a way to upgrade themselves a little. Sorta customize their characters.
Good? Bad? Ugly?
Also consider this: Many of the players with high kill counts simply are the ones who hang back and let the others attack first. They don't take the hits and pick off the wondend aliens. This does not make them a better player, infact in my option worse as if you had a team full of them you would not be nearly aggressive enough. Therefore its not "fair" for them to get the upgrades while the true team players don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1664884:date=Dec 22 2007, 10:13 AM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Dec 22 2007, 10:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you being serious?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely. Have you never noticed that on the pubs? Several players come up to a doorway where they know aliens are waiting on the other side. They all then hover around, making like they are going to run through but pulling back at the last minute until another player (normaly one who arrives to 2-3 marines already there) does. This player gets a few rounds off and gets hit (normaly killed) while
the wimpy players get to shoot the alien who has popped into view. Now if they sometimes ran through themselves this would be ok but I know players who constantly do this. Why? because they love to bounce around the ready room after the match pointing to their high kill ratios. Even if it means expensive of the win. These players hardly ever build in comparison to the rest of the team as that means exposing themselves via putting their gun away. Now I know that some one has to cover (in certain times) but ffs do your share!
Thus, earning the right to buy a gun in the new system should be earned via all aspects of team play and not just kills. Don't get me wrong, it should not go to the lemmings either!
Smart marines will assess situations and never walk into ambushes, they'll make the ambushers come to them. OR they'll make someone else trigger that ambush just so they can advance ahead and move closer to spawn camping baddies.
Remember, always bait your teammates in pubs.
Smart marines will assess situations and never walk into ambushes, they'll make the ambushers come to them. OR they'll make someone else trigger that ambush just so they can advance ahead and move closer to spawn camping baddies.
Remember, always bait your teammates in pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed but certain players never play the bait only the trap. Thats my point!, not that baiting is a bad idea or strat!