NS2 Marine Weapon system

Sirus

<!--quoteo(post=1666066:date=Jan 2 2008, 01:36 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Jan 2 2008, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Competitive leagues are the be end of all games because they provide competent players you can choose to play with, some even without repulsive personality disorders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

But they don't make things successful. Not that NS2 would be better off without a competitive league, but it can be successful without it. The lesson over the past few years for the gaming industry is that the casual audience is important. (I believe at a conference, Charlie even had a speech about using casual games to fund development?) Further, World of Warcraft for example shows that hardcore and casual players can exist but it's important to remember ultimately who made them sucessful (Hint: not the hardcore players).

What I'm trying to say is that it is neither fiscally responsible or wise to sacrifice the average player for the hardcore. All changes, and features must include the average player whether some may feel it is apt or not.

Scripts / Bhopping for example are tools of veteran players, and are often considered skillful, but they generally diminish the experience of the average player. Which is why you often see competitive MP games remove them through patch or their second iteration.

locallyunscene

<!--quoteo(post=1666066:date=Jan 2 2008, 04:36 PM:name=Domining)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Jan 2 2008, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reading comprehension.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your sentence structure was ambiguous.

I read it as "But then after seeing what REAL teamwork is about, [the teamwork] got boring and all that was left was killing aliens in pubs."

but you meant it as

"But then after seeing what REAL teamwork is about, [NS] got boring and all that was left was killing aliens in pubs."

That's why I asked.

Domining

I can see why you'd want to market the game towards the casual players, but that doesn't justify nerfing the skill difference. (somewhat unrelated)

<!--quoteo(post=1666088:date=Jan 2 2008, 06:58 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jan 2 2008, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your sentence structure was ambiguous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that's a huge problem with the English language. Too easy to make statements which could be interpreted in different ways.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I read it as "But then after seeing what REAL teamwork is about, [the teamwork] got boring and all that was left was killing aliens in pubs."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesn't make much sense. After seeing real teamwork, teamwork got boring? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

Harimau

<!--quoteo(post=1666056:date=Jan 3 2008, 06:18 AM:name=Sirus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirus @ Jan 3 2008, 06:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but what about the armory automatically generating weapons over time? Once you unlock a weapon type, it slowly generates in the armory, and once it's been "built" by the armory, a player can pick it up. (i.e. "uses" armory, and selects the weapon from a list) Different types of weapons generate more slowly than others. (GL won't generate as fast as a shotgun) There can be a limit to how many types of weapons an armory can hold. So that there's not 12 grenade launchers in it over time, preventing cheese strategies that are very unlikely to happen in real games.

Further, commanders could be given the ability to "focus" the armory, allowing only one type of weapon to be generated, but generating at a faster rate. So preparing for a shotgun rush or other strategy to be viable, and in control of the commander, while allowing players to generally select their own weapon under other circumstances. This way both commander and marine have both freedom and choice that could mesh well.

More dynamics to such a concept: Armories would be more strategic targets for the Kharaa. In addition, multiple armories could be built to ensure that weapons are being created at a faster rate, or focusing multiple weapon types. (Shotgun/HMG) (It would likely be wise to set a limit to how many armories could be in play, for example, 2 or 3, set as a server variable for larger servers, or competitive play, but we'll say default is 2.) OR second, third armories could have higher costs, scaling as more armories are in play.

In reference to other suggestions, I think having a personal currency is dangerous. It rewards certain roles, but not others. A good K/D ratio doesn't mean you're playing a winning game. Players competing over finishing the build of a structure to get points, or complaints of stealing kills, killing blows, certain commanded roles etc. are real possibilities.

Addendum: The commander should still have the ability to "buyout" a weapon immediately for a certain costs, similar to how it exists now (although perhaps at a higher relative cost as the economy of NS2 is still in question.) That way, if there's a prime player that the commander wants to gear out, he can do so if the weapon has already been taken, or hasn't been created yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I like these ideas.

I'm gonna go through the thread later and try to get some summaries of the various ideas for the NS2 Marine Weapon systems.

CanadianWolverine

<!--quoteo(post=1666097:date=Jan 2 2008, 09:12 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 2 2008, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I like these ideas.

I'm gonna go through the thread later and try to get some summaries of the various ideas for the NS2 Marine Weapon systems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That is an interesting take on it that Sirus pointed out.

How many different options do the Devs have available to them so far? Is there a compromise between them, some sort of way to maximize the pros vs the cons. Thanks for giving it a shot at summary Harimau.

Misere

Currently there appears to be several options. For a link to which posts state what in more detail go to the very beinging of this thread <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103418&view=findpost&p=1663862" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1663862</a>.

One thing all players seem to aggree on is that the com is still able to drop items like the current system but there should be some sort of "self servce" option added. So the in summeries that follow it is assumed that the com can still purchase items directly and drop them on marines. The terms: purchase, points etc are used here for simplity and do not reflect a preferance for any system. It is assumed that all actions go through the armoury.

<b>Gaining the right to get weapons:</b>

We all know that any system implemented should not allow armoury humpers and lemmings to gain all the items. This appears to suggest that a simple timer system plus free for all is out of the question. Therefore the general consesis (bar Domming) is that the right to optain weapons is generated from all postive imputs towards a win (Killing/Dealing damage to aliens/structures, Building, Welding, following COMs orders). This way less skilled players can still earn items slowly but those doing the most are rewarded the most.

There is conisderable debate on what these points should be called. Money, prestege and res have all been suggested. However, these debates are asthetics only. The true question is whether these points are interchangble with the COMS res. (i.e. can you cash in some prestege to give the COM that extra 10 res to research jet packs). This needs to be debated more. However the method for generating weapons will answer this. Possibly Max or Flayra should start a poll thread?


<b>Generateing weapons:</b>

<i>Timer:</i>
Every x seconds an item is generated and stored in the armory. Those with the points to purchase weapons can do so. The com can select which items are generated faster by either selecting upgrades to make some items produced faster/more cheaply or by closing down others to speed up the rest. This system would thus be independent of res unless the COM purchases items to stock the amoury.

Pro: It would allow the developers to adjust the rate of production for easy balance.
Con: As items would be only produced every xseconds players would wait around MS to get them, especially of say two or three players all had the points to buy the item.

<i>Two res pools:</i>

As the team earns res form kills and RT's a certain percentage of this is automaticly set a side for items. It has been suggested that the com can set this rate (within limits) and/or transfer res bettween the two pools to purchase expensive upgrades quickly or preform a rush.

Pro: It would allow the COM to adjust the rate of production to meet the teams <u>needs </u>rather than its <u>wants</u>
Con: Same as the timer. If there is only enough res for one SG but two or three players all have the points to buy the item, armoury humping will occure.

<i>Personal res:</i>

Each time a postive input is actioned the player in question would gain res. This res can then be used to directly purchase weapons.

Pro: It would eminate the humping of the armoury as there would be no marine on marine competion for items.
Con: This maybe harder to balance as the Marines would be generating res for things like repairing the damage the aliens did to the phase gate. Alien teams on the back foot would find it harder to come back.

<b>Addtional COM abilities.</b>

Reguardless of the method selected it does appear that he players would like the COM to be able to adjust the marines preferences by making some items cheaper or purchasing marines extra points to preform a rush which would still allow the marines to select the weapons that they are best with.

<b>Additional considerations/ debates required</b>

Are marines able to pick up fallen marines items?

Can marines return items to upgrade? If so what happens to the returned items?

When should marines get new items? On respawn to prevent them from running back to MS as soon as they can afford a new item?

Are the developers going to give an update?

Harimau

Thanks Misere, saved me the trouble <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

Kashio

<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->Players able to choose which weapon to "grab", commander still buy weapons, in a different way<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

NS 1 : Commander decides which weapon to drop, players request the weapon they want.

suggestion for NS2 : Commander still buys and decides which weapon to use as strategy, players CHOOSE which weapon they want to use from storage.

<b>Description:</b>
Commander's interface will now be able to buy weapons TO the inventory of armory.

<b>Commander's view on armory:</b>

- Type of weapon (and also mini description for what you need to build to unlock certain weapons.)
- Price for each weapon
- Settings:
Amount: Shows selection of 1x, 10x, 50x (setting for per click on the buy button)
Lock/reserve: Reserve certain weapon type and/or number of weapon for certain "group"(1, 2, 3 etc..)
Release Delay: Certain weapon type release every x seconds/minutes for players to grab from armory. (example, commander purchased 200 heavy machine guns, but set for 10 heavy m.guns available every 60 seconds)

- Confirm Purchase



<b>Player's Interface on Armory:</b>

- Display available weapons selection from armory inventory
- Release Delay Timer Countdown
- Request Weapon Button
- Confirm

Harimau

Kashio that's a nice idea, but you gotta let the comm still drop stuff on the fly, like what's in NS atm, as has been discussed. Also, there's a problem with the gun-choosing system, since it's still pretty much first-come first-serve, but that's no different from the current system. I think that 'group' system would fix part of it. (It might effectively replace the practically useless squad system). The comm might give a group of three good players, designation 1, and only let three hmg's go to them. They wouldn't necessarily be in a squad, but they'd be using the hmg (well, we hope) according to the comm's wishes.
I think your idea is really a variation/elaboration on:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Generateing weapons:
Timer:
Every x seconds an item is generated and stored in the armory. Those with the points to purchase weapons can do so. The com can select which items are generated faster by either selecting upgrades to make some items produced faster/more cheaply or by closing down others to speed up the rest. This system would thus be independent of res unless the COM purchases items to stock the amoury.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, particularly the generating weapons part. it'd be more of an 'armoury' that 'stocks' weapons.

sorry if my reply is a little incoherent.

locallyunscene

<!--quoteo(post=1666228:date=Jan 3 2008, 10:21 PM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Jan 3 2008, 10:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><Summary><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to add, there is a discussion of templates near the beginning of this thread regarding how 'requests' for equipment are organized.

EmpV

I would like to suggest another way that is similar to the template ideas that have been mentioned. It is a way that players can request weapons and equipment, but is much easier for the commander.
Players could also buy their own weapons and equipment from the armory if they have earned enough "credits"

<!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->My idea is to combine player requests and item dropping into one screen that the commander can access quickly.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
It would work just like the scoreboard does now, except it is interactive and has much more information.
I photoshoped an example Player loadout screen to help explain the idea.

<b>(<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Look at the example picture at bottom before you continue reading<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->)</b>

When using this, the commander could simply press his scoreboard key or an icon on his screen. This screen functions as a scoreboard and much more for the commander. The yellow box with the <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> in it is an example of what the commander might see when he gets a request.

The box on the right side has all the items that are available to equip marines with. The commander can click a medpack for example and then click the appropriate box on the screen to the left to instantly give that marine meds without even having to look at him. Hotkeys could also be used to select items to equip.

The box on the left lists all marine players, what equipment they have, what they have requested, and how many credits they have. For example, NSPlayer3 currently has a shotgun and has requested Heavy Armor and a medpack.

The yellow weapon boxes indicate what the marine has requested from the commander. The commander would be able to equip that player with what they want by just clicking the yellow icon. Or the commander might deny the player the weapon or equip him with a different weapon. A commander may also notice that a player like NSPlayer2 has 20 credits and tell him to buy his own gun. Once the commander equips the marine, the icon will change color and stay there until the marine is within range of the Armory at which point he will receive his requested weapon. Only items like medpacks/ammo would be instant no matter where the marine is.

When a player looks at his scoreboard, he will get a similar list of available items on the right that he can select to request them from the commander. He will have icons to indicate that he has requested a weapon and it will change color when he has been approved. He will receive the weapon once he is in range of an armory.

This idea puts all the information the commander needs to know about his team and the ability to equip them all in one easy point and click place. Many things could be done differently with this. This is just an example of the idea. So look at the picture and tell me what you think. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />

<img src="http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4154/nsweaponsao3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Misere

I don't think the request system will not work but it does have a issue when it comes to spam.
<i>Give me a shotty, give me a shotty</i>
We don't have the res go get some points
<i>Give me a shotty, give me a shotty</i>
etc.

I'll vote yes to any system that has:
1. Some sort of way of earning items for team work (all aspects not just killing)
2. Does not encourage armoury humping
3. Does not spam the com with requests.

The entire idea of the new system is to free up the com to pay attention to the problems at the front.

What ever system is implemented the COM should be able to gift res to players (individualy or the entire group.) for self selection.
Drop items for COM selection, (e.g. SG + HA rush)

Can we please get a dissussion on:
Whether you should be able to pick up other players guns and ammo
Cashing in guns for upgrades.

corpsman

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Therefore the general consesis (bar Domming) is that the right to optain weapons is generated from all postive imputs towards a win (Killing/Dealing damage to aliens/structures, Building, Welding, following COMs orders). This way less skilled players can still earn items slowly but those doing the most are rewarded the most.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I am all for the idea of the team recieving weapons somehow, other then simple dropping from the commander. The only problem I keep hearing is people who seem to think they are better lpayer because of their kill count. If we all thought that way, noone would ever be a gorge, and welders would never be used. Also on a more personal note, anyone who plays with that mind set alone can lick my crack. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />

I usually play a more supportive role, ever since I started playing an engineer in Tribes Renegades, and even though I enabled my team to do better from placement of turrets and inventory stations, they did better... <i>because</i> of the turrets and stations. Get what Im saying? So kill count alone, I just don't see it as an "absolute" abswer to winning any game other then some sort of death match themed game like Quake or Unreal Tournament. Thats a game where the first to X kills, wins. With regards to NS #1, I see people who build RTs and damage the hives as the ones actually <b>winning</b> the game, on the marine side. You could have a hundred thousand bollion trillion kills, but when the skulk finishes off your CC, yeah, you lose. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />


<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personal res:

Each time a postive input is actioned the player in question would gain res. This res can then be used to directly purchase weapons.

Pro: It would eminate the humping of the armoury as there would be no marine on marine competion for items.
Con: This maybe harder to balance as the Marines would be generating res for things like repairing the damage the aliens did to the phase gate. Alien teams on the back foot would find it harder to come back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I really, really, really, really, really, really like this idea. To me it says: You want res? Work for it. Unless the commander has enough to pass out the big stuff. *shrug* Want that shotty after your first time dying, then you gotta get X amount of kills to earn it. Great idea. This would eliminate the need for comm/team res pooling/seperation.

I could see it going like this: Player spawns at begining of game, gets kills in order to earn enough [saving up] for a certain weapon. Every kill they get earns them a rank score or something, so after say 5 kills they get a shotty. They can either choose to buy the shottythe next time they spawn, or save for an even bigger weapon. So, even though they <i>could</i> save up for an HMG, they would have to save alot more, and of course the GL would be like the most.

Balancing could maybe be done by simply adjusting the # of kills needed to earn each weapon type. The only "con" or bad side of this I see is having to buy your guns, every, single, time, you die.... like counterstrike. *sigh* So each new spawn you have to suit there and choose your pistol, knife, blah blah blah, it just doesn't fit.


<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><i><b>Are the developers going to give an update?</b></i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

hehe

CanadianWolverine

Corpsman, you are funny. First you describe how kills alone don't make a good indicator of contribution to the NS match but then you use kill count to decide who gets the new equipment. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> May I suggest you edit the second part of your post and throw in say, team play points, for every time you said kills. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

naggy

Marines should have a resource system like that of the Kharaa: <b>Everyone has their own personal resource pool and buys their own upgrades.</b>

With that said, there would still be a commander, but he would get a significantly larger amount of resources than everyone else in the team. His job would be exactly the same (unlocking weapons/armour, building turrets/advanced structures/etc.), but he wouldn't have to worry about placing the equipment at spawn, instantly making his job much easier to monitor.

Also, this would eliminate the frustration of having a ###### commander who doesn't know when to drop weapons/armour upgrades/etc. at certain times, and leads to more customization for the players. Numerous times have I played with a retard commander who wouldn't drop a GL when the surrounding corridors are littered with chambers, or have players on my team not efficiently skilled in using certain types of weapons.

This could easily be accomplished by using the current NS classic resource system. Each player gets res for killing enemies, and the commander gets the same amount of res put into his pool. Everyone would get res from the RT's like usual, so there is a constant flow.

This would make commanding a lot easier to pick up and enjoy IMO, as the stress that a scrub commander gets from having to zip around placing equipment here and there usually leads to avoidance of the comm chair in future games. The game would also keep its high teamwork orientated status as communication between team members would be needed to check what is needed/wanted (like specific weapon mixes, or ha/jp rushes, etc.)

locallyunscene

<!--quoteo(post=1666800:date=Jan 8 2008, 05:16 PM:name=EmpV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EmpV @ Jan 8 2008, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666800"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><sweet pic><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the interface you've designed and it doesn't necessarily exclude any of the equipment system styles.
<!--quoteo(post=1666809:date=Jan 8 2008, 07:36 PM:name=Misere)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Misere @ Jan 8 2008, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the request system will not work but it does have a issue when it comes to spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There will always be spam and armory humping(as long as weapons are tied to the armory). I like the idea of a credit/personal res(although less for this one) because while it doesn't eliminate humping and requesting, it discourages it. It encourages the player to go out and do stuff to earn credit instead of sitting there bugging the comm. If the comm locks out all of the choices for marines then there could be request spam, but that's because he's not giving the marines incentive to go out and do stuff(beyond the normal incentive of winning the game).

corpsman

<!--quoteo(post=1666822:date=Jan 8 2008, 10:06 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jan 8 2008, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666822"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Corpsman, you are funny. First you describe how kills alone don't make a good indicator of contribution to the NS match but then you use kill count to decide who gets the new equipment. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> May I suggest you edit the second part of your post and throw in say, team play points, for every time you said kills. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I suggest you go back and read the post again, making note of the word "alone." My gorge would be nothing without the rest of the team to get those kills and lead us to victory, but kills <b>ALONE</b> [watch out! I used the word again!] isn't in my opinion absolute. I think it takes a little of everything.

CanadianWolverine

<!--quoteo(post=1666918:date=Jan 9 2008, 02:58 PM:name=corpsman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(corpsman @ Jan 9 2008, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suggest you go back and read the post again, making note of the word "alone." My gorge would be nothing without the rest of the team to get those kills and lead us to victory, but kills <b>ALONE</b> [watch out! I used the word again!] isn't in my opinion absolute. I think it takes a little of everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Er... I'll try a re-read then. Sorry.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also on a more personal note, anyone who plays with that mind set <u>alone</u> can lick my crack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ok, got it. Found the alone part. Which I completely agree with and this other part too:

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With regards to NS #1, I see <i>people who build RTs and damage the hives as the ones actually winning the game</i>, on the marine side. You could have a hundred thousand bollion trillion kills, but when the skulk finishes off your CC, yeah, you lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

See, I agree with you, completely. That is what made this part funny for me:

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Want that shotty after your first time dying, then you <b>gotta get X amount of kills</b> to earn it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

And these parts too:

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... gets kills in order to earn enough [saving up] for a certain weapon.

Balancing could maybe be done by simply adjusting the <b># of kills needed</b> to earn each weapon type.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

They just seem at odds, you know? The first part I agree with says the building is just as important as dealing damage, which is just as important as other supporting roles, such as a welder operator. Then you bring up kills as the way to earn the next weapon, even when earlier you said you don't like that mindset alone ... when it appears you have that mindset. Am I the only one who finds that funny? *shrug* Oh well, just want you to know I agree with you, so I disagree with your proposed implementation. So, again, I agree wholeheartedly with your second post as well, I just hope you can see that earning weapons by kills makes the kill count that much more important, where as, if a way can be found to make all ways to help the team earn the points that reward you with a weapon, overall team work benefits by being made that much more important.

Sort of like in Combat, the most amount of experience is tied to kills, so those get the goods, and unfortunately that can end up with some terribly one sided games.

Just how it would be possible to reward points for all actions on an level playing field I am not completely certain of yet. I was thinking something like, time spent doing something earns points, that is quantifiable so that x amount of time = y amount of weapon acquisition points. Sorta like, for every "hit" you make with your hand to build, or your welder or your weapon, you gain the same amount of points. So, if you are involved with the game at all really, you are going to get points towards playing more of the game, which happens to be helping your team win.

corpsman

Well, I guess since I stated kills alone shouldn't be the only thing governing rewards, and that kills alone aren't everything in the same post, I should have sepreated them better. I used it as an example, but even welding could earn you X amount of "points" per second spend welding something. Building would earn you points too, that's what I meant. [But not <i>JUST</i> killing] I should have used a different example, given the other part of my post. I see what happened. I do believe killing is a big part of it, but I just don't see it as the absolute in an RTS based game. Sorry bout that.

This is my favorite idea: The commander is constantly putting X amount of res into a weapon and/or Armor station [either they are one, or they are two different stations]. He would be building other base structures of course, but every now and then he could "put" 30 res into the weapon station, then the AA will hand out weapons [and armor if the stations were conbined] from that res. It would give out upgraded weps like SGs and HMGs until the res is gone, so favorites doesn't matter. Then, if the commander feels that it is time, he can upgrade the Armory to hand out bigger weps and/or armor to marines. The marines just walk up to it and when they hit the use button, they will either just get ammo, or the armory will "give" them something if it has "res" ni it.

It will be based on the level of upgrade that station has. This WOULD take away the constant need for attention also, that the commander faces with dropping weapons and armor, in the heat of battle. Instead of having to go back to the base, select the AA and sit there dropping stuff where it is allowed, he would just "dump" res into the armory and/or weapon station, then get back into battle. The more he dumps, the more stuff will be handed out. And since <i>what</i> is handed out is based on his decision to upgrade the AA, then it's not like someone will go up to the armory at the begining of the game and get an HMG.

It is basically the same upgrade wise to what NS1 has, where the commander has control over how much is handed out, and what upgrades to "buy," but now they don't need to sit at base and place 5 HMGs here, 4 HAs there, 3 welders over here... Drop res into station/s, get back to the front!

I even like the idea of having two stations, one for armor, and another for weapon [seperate]. It would hand out armor based or res put into it, and on it's upgrade level. Comm has complete control over the amount handed out [how much res they place into that station] and level of what is handed out [selecting upgrades], but doesn't have to sit there and "give" everyone stuff, and it leaves the handing out of items a little bit random, so the favorites situation isn't presetn anymore. I do however think that he should be able to "hot drop" items like packs and whatnot at the front lines. This is just my favorite idea for the base. Commander has control, teammates all get to enjoy weapons and items, and ALOT less time is spent dropping everything at base.

corpsman

BTW everyone, I heard that Valve and Nvidia is giving out some sort of Portal based game for all Gforce card owners. I guess you have to take a quick quiz, Steam detects that you have a Gforce based card, then it allows you to get Portal for free. Not sure since I have not tried it yet, but if this is only for a few days then you may want to look into it! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" />

naggy

<!--quoteo(post=1666937:date=Jan 9 2008, 05:29 PM:name=corpsman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(corpsman @ Jan 9 2008, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I guess since I stated kills alone shouldn't be the only thing governing rewards, and that kills alone aren't everything in the same post, I should have sepreated them better. I used it as an example, but even welding could earn you X amount of "points" per second spend welding something. Building would earn you points too, that's what I meant. [But not <i>JUST</i> killing] I should have used a different example, given the other part of my post. I see what happened. I do believe killing is a big part of it, but I just don't see it as the absolute in an RTS based game. Sorry bout that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Welding to earn res would be too unbalanced, and/or not useful enough to make it worthwhile. Imagine having a mole on the alien team chomping something to have a bunch of marines welding it whoring res for free.. If anything, players should earn more resources depending on their score (which is accumulated via building and killing enemy structures, which in the end is the aim of the game), not their kills alone.

<!--quoteo(post=1666937:date=Jan 9 2008, 05:29 PM:name=corpsman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(corpsman @ Jan 9 2008, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is my favorite idea: The commander is constantly putting X amount of res into a weapon and/or Armor station [either they are one, or they are two different stations]. He would be building other base structures of course, but every now and then he could "put" 30 res into the weapon station, then the AA will hand out weapons [and armor if the stations were conbined] from that res. It would give out upgraded weps like SGs and HMGs until the res is gone, so favorites doesn't matter. Then, if the commander feels that it is time, he can upgrade the Armory to hand out bigger weps and/or armor to marines. The marines just walk up to it and when they hit the use button, they will either just get ammo, or the armory will "give" them something if it has "res" ni it.

It will be based on the level of upgrade that station has. This WOULD take away the constant need for attention also, that the commander faces with dropping weapons and armor, in the heat of battle. Instead of having to go back to the base, select the AA and sit there dropping stuff where it is allowed, he would just "dump" res into the armory and/or weapon station, then get back into battle. The more he dumps, the more stuff will be handed out. And since <i>what</i> is handed out is based on his decision to upgrade the AA, then it's not like someone will go up to the armory at the begining of the game and get an HMG.

It is basically the same upgrade wise to what NS1 has, where the commander has control over how much is handed out, and what upgrades to "buy," but now they don't need to sit at base and place 5 HMGs here, 4 HAs there, 3 welders over here... Drop res into station/s, get back to the front!

I even like the idea of having two stations, one for armor, and another for weapon [seperate]. It would hand out armor based or res put into it, and on it's upgrade level. Comm has complete control over the amount handed out [how much res they place into that station] and level of what is handed out [selecting upgrades], but doesn't have to sit there and "give" everyone stuff, and it leaves the handing out of items a little bit random, so the favorites situation isn't presetn anymore. I do however think that he should be able to "hot drop" items like packs and whatnot at the front lines. This is just my favorite idea for the base. Commander has control, teammates all get to enjoy weapons and items, and ALOT less time is spent dropping everything at base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You basically summarized 80% of what i said in my last post, but you replaced personal resource pools with a commander dropping items into an armory, which imo, doesn't help reduce tards camping spawn for equipment because it's <b>already been done</b> before with the use of mods (google <b>Equipment Store</b>.) And also, having equipment locked until certain amounts of kills are gained is a <b>bad</b> thing, because it encourages camping/whoring for kills, and is basically the mechanics that combat runs off of. More kills = bigger gun/e-peen.

If anything, it should be score related as you get a higher score from helping build/kill structures (which is what you have to do to win.)

I still think personal resource pools are better in terms of making NS2 a more 'noob' friendly and/or more enjoyable game for everyone.. It reduces whorage of spawn/armory humping, gives the player freedom to chose what they want, adds a sense of value to a marines weapon as it cost him his own resources to obtain, and it encourages people to go out there and do what they are supposed to be doing (like killing RT's and pushing back the enemy.)

To me, NS was missing those critical key points, which is why it was so hard for new people to like it.

Misere

Welding is very important and should not be left out on the chance there is a mole. Anyway you can counter that to simply make it more worth while killing that mole for res than harvesting his damage to structures. A very simple system like this would stop all exploits, (some tweaking required for ratios and time probably required).

Each point of health and armor is worth one damage point, kill point, building point or repairing point.

You earn kill points for dealing damage to aliens 10secs before it dies.
You earn damage points for dealing damage to structures 30seconds before it dies
~ This is important to prevent kill stealing.
You earn building and repairing points for every point built or repaired, with vents count as repairing.

To earn 1 res for your personal pool y:
Once you gain enough kill points equivalent to say a solo kill of a medium life form like a lerk, thus after solo killing two skulks = 1 res, or 1 ONO's = 3res.
Deal structure damage equivalent to a solo kill of a RT
Gain build points equivalent to a solo build of a RT
Gain weld points from structures, players and vents equivalent to a solo weld of two RT's on one bar of health.

This general structure is important as it rewards the players who get stuck in rather than hang back. You could award say 20% of the points earned to covering players who state “I’m covering you” within the same room from building and welding activities and 20% from the kills to building and welding players to normally sacrifice themselves to get those sieges up.

corpsman

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welding to earn res would be too unbalanced, and/or not useful enough to make it worthwhile. Imagine having a mole on the alien team chomping something to have a bunch of marines welding it whoring res for free.. If anything, players should earn more resources depending on their score (which is accumulated via building and killing enemy structures, which in the end is the aim of the game), not their kills alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

My point is positive reinforcement and motivation for team work. Whether it be getting kills, welding, building, whatever. Anything that promotes teamwork should be encouraged and rewarded, otherwise you end up with more John Rambos, and less teamwork. It gets old.

I have played games where everyone else was HA and had big guns, but I had only a welder. All I did was either sit on top of an AA, crouched down, welding people coming back for reloads; or, welding people who moved to the back of the heavy train while they reloaded. I very often heard thank yous too. That was of course after the constant screams and text messages saying "WELD ME!" I don't think welding should be downplayed. What do gorges do for the majority of their time during battles, besides building structures? Any fades, ONOSs, or lerks will back me up on that.


<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You basically summarized 80% of what i said in my last post, but you replaced personal resource pools with a commander dropping items into an armory, which imo, doesn't help reduce tards camping spawn for equipment because it's <b>already been done</b> before with the use of mods (google <b>Equipment Store</b>.) And also, having equipment locked until certain amounts of kills are gained is a <b>bad</b> thing, because it encourages camping/whoring for kills, and is basically the mechanics that combat runs off of. More kills = bigger gun/e-peen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Well, people will spawn camp and armory camp no matter what you do, but I see what your saying. It kinda makes them either go out and earn their "stuff," or sit in base and do nothing, but also get nothing. I wonder then how the developers could draw the line between the players vs. a commander's control over a team, and focus on whats happening. I see you point and agree, but with people earning their own stuff, that could ALSO be said to encourage whoring/camping and people just doing whatever for bigger guns. i.e. "get to your way point soldier," soldier says "screw you, i'm gonna go get kills so I earn more res for a bigger weapon and a JP."

Too much control taken away from the commander WILL and DOES mean people doing more of their own thing. It is fun to run off and just do whatever, but in the bigger picture you won't <i>usually</i> win unless you go where the commander can drop stations, turrets, PGs and packs for everyone. So I see what your saying, my idea would encourage some people to camp at base until the commander put res nito the stations, but I see other problems with giving people their own res pools, since it could end up with less people following orders.

Maybe then [with your idea in mind] the commander should have some sort of regulatory control over how much res they get, that way if they start to sway "off course," he can "pull em in" by changnig what they get. Same as what they do with NS 1! When you act up, he doesn't drop stuff. Some sort of slider bar, or % gauge the comm can regulate. So if the team is doing well and winning [he knows best since he DOES see the overall picture] then he can give them more from the teams res, and if they start screwing off more, or people wander away being stupid, the commander could turn it back down until they correct their actions. The "team punishment" approach does often work when done right. People only tolerate others screwing up for so long. This would promote teamwork!

So now I do like your idea more, but how could the commander regulate the res pool, to keep the team on track? I can only imagine some sort of option the comm can change when they feel they need to. The bad side of my proposal is also that it would require constant attention, sliding the regulation bar back and forth. Sounds like a step in the wrong direction since they wanted to streamline the commanders process, but I think something should <b>definitely</b> be in place for the commander to have their say!

Any ideas?

Deathwish42

My first post and my thoughts on this system:
As a marine I always hated having to beg for an HMG/welder/ext. and would prefer a system that allows me to choose the weapons/gear that I am best at using, I am useless with the shotgun but love the HMG. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />

If players were awarded ‘credits’ (or whatever you want to call future $) for their action, like 100c for killing a Skulk, 100c for building (or helping to build) a structure, 1000c for killing a fade, 100c for repairing 700HP worth of structure health (my #s would obviously need some balancing testing) they could buy weapons/wargear that the com has unlocked at armories. A shotgun would cost the com 10recourse to drop but it would cost a solder 1000c to purchase.

The com can still drop weapons using resources (and next to any structure not just armories) but the solders, or at least the ones that get credits from performing tasks that help the team, can pick their own gear and allow the com to focus on tactics and base construction. Players that help the team should be rewarded just as aliens that kill a marine should also get personal resource.

Solders should also be able to ‘sell’ their weapons back to the armory for credits so that when the com calls for a rush, if you don’t have the appropriate weapons or gear (ie jetpack and shotgun when you need heavy armor and a HMG) you don’t waist your hard earned cash on gear just to throw it away

The com needs to be able to maintain control or his/her forces while the solders needs to be able to use gear that they are familiar with and good at using. The com should never have to worry that their res will all be used up by noobs who keep dying and buying the most expensive gear every time. And sometimes a front line solder knows more about what is going on in a certain situation than a com in their metal throne, especially when the com is inexperienced.

I like the idea of a com researching cost discounts on weapons and gear. What about upgrades for individual solders like larger clips, HE rounds or the like that a single player could chose for themselves. Some upgrades could not be compatible, for example, do you want more ammo in the clip or do you want to deal more damage per a shot?

Templates and Request forms seem counterproductive. The point is to make the game easier to play and allow the players to have more fun not make the game overly complex. The com already has enough to think about and do, dose he/she really need to have a popup every 3 seconds saying someone wants a shotgun?

Any expansion on my ideas, or indeed combining everyone’s ideas into a simple to use and fun system would be much appreciated.

EmpV

I will try to expand DeathWish's idea a little bit and attempt to create a working solution that will satisfy many of the needs that have been suggested.


First a <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>Summary</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> of things I think need to be in place:

<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>1. Marines get personal credits/resources that they can use to choose and buy their own weapons/equipment.

2. The commander needs to be able to decide who to give team weapons/equipment to without being distracted from the game.

3. The commander needs to be in control of the spending of team resources.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->


<b>I will not discuss the problems with each of these three points because they have been covered already in this thread.</b>


<!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro--><b>My idea of a solution is to combine the ideas into one. A personal res system, request system, and commander control system.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

Marines will have a menu that can be accessed <u>at any time</u> to buy weapons/equipment. We will call it a <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->LoadOut Menu. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->On this menu are all the weapons/equipment that has been researched by the commander.

<b>I will describe how it works with 2 scenarios of players wanting a shotgun.</b>

<!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->1.Player: Personal Credits<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Lets say NSPlayer #1 wants a shotgun. A shotgun costs 10res and this player happens to have saved up 10 credits/res. The player opens his LoadOut menu, selects the shotgun and spends his personal credits. When the marine is within range of the armory he gets his shotty automatically.(no armory humping required) The marine has the gun he wanted and the commander did not have to do anything.

<!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->2.Comander: Team Resources<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
NSPlayer #2 now also wants a shotgun, but he only has 3 credits/res. He opens his LoadOut menu and selects the shotgun for purchase. The player has 2 choices. He can continue playing until he has 10 credits, or the commander can choose to give this player a shotgun. The commander has a similar LoadOut menu with which he can see what weapons all players have selected in their LoadOut menus. The commander has some res to spend on weapons so he takes a quick glance at his LoadOut menu and sees that NSPlayer #2 has purchased a shotgun but does not have enough credits yet. He uses his menu to approve use of Team resources for the purchase of that weapon. The marine gets a notification and will receive his shotgun as soon as he is in range of the armory. The commander only had to open the LoadOut Menu and click. He did not have to look away from the front lines or whatever he was busy doing.


<!--coloro:#DDA0DD--><span style="color:#DDA0DD"><!--/coloro--><b>In Conclusion:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

1. This system allows marines to use their own credits to buy weapons they want at any time during the game. You could even purchase a weapon when you get killed and are waiting to reapawn. As long as the IP is in range of the armory and you have enough credits you would spawn with your weapon.

2. This system requires hardly any interaction from the commander. All he has to do is take a quick glance at his LoadOut menu and click to approve weapon purchases if necessary. He can make informed decisions about which players to spend team resources on. (he would not buy a gun for a guy who has loads of personal credits or thinks he is Rambo) It is true that some players will still mic spam for shottys, but that is unavoidable as long as the commander has a degree of control.

3. This system lets the commander decide how to spend all the team resources. This is a RTS game for the commander. He needs to be able to spend the resources on what is best for the team at that time. Sometimes he needs to spend it on upgrades, sometimes on weapons.
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>The commanders decisions should be more important than a marines desire to have a shotgun.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

I posted a picture of what the menu could look like for the commander at the top of this page. The player would have a similar looking menu.
<a href="http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4154/nsweaponsao3.jpg" target="_blank">Example of Commander Loadout Menu</a>

CanadianWolverine

<!--quoteo(post=1666969:date=Jan 10 2008, 01:46 AM:name=corpsman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(corpsman @ Jan 10 2008, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point is positive reinforcement and motivation for team work.

...

Maybe then [with your idea in mind] the commander should have some sort of regulatory control over how much res they get, that way if they start to sway "off course," he can "pull em in" by changnig what they get. Same as what they do with NS 1! When you act up, he doesn't drop stuff. Some sort of slider bar, or % gauge the comm can regulate. So if the team is doing well and winning [he knows best since he DOES see the overall picture] then he can give them more from the teams res, and if they start screwing off more, or people wander away being stupid, the commander could turn it back down until they correct their actions. The "team punishment" approach does often work when done right. People only tolerate others screwing up for so long. This would promote teamwork!

...

Any ideas?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The regulatory control does seem a bit like punishment, when really I know you want positive reinforcement rather than negative reinforcement.

To that end, I had an idea while I was reading your post, and since I didn't get to the end of the thread yet it wouldn't surprise me if some of the other awesome posters in this forum already came up with it but I had to just get it typed down before it slips from my mind after you inspired me with your post:

Make a Commander Way Point have a room / battle ground (battle site?) sized radius, whatever that may be, I leave that up to the Devs to tweak. Oh, and see the Dynamic Way Points thread - make it so the Marine gets good directions and points for following them. Then, make it so that it rewards those who were given the way point with a tiny bit of that personal res pool over the time they spend at the way point. Give the way point area time frame that can also be tweaked (say, according to distance from the player's starting point, plus the reason the Commander dropped it, like defend gets more time and quick assault gets less or something, see it needs tweaking) , so a player who takes too long getting there, oops, the way point has expired, sorry, should have paid attention to the Commander. It would be sorta like, follow the bread crumbs but you wait to long and birds will have eaten them all already. "C'mon Hans and Gretel, lets go to the Hive, I mean Ginger Bread House! Tra la la la!"

If the Commander needs people to hang at base and defend instead of running off to "earn res", then select those you want to defend, drop a way point area in the base and done, you got a bunch of players happy to be rewarded by their Commander for following the Commander.

But lets say you don't follow the Commander's way point and orders exactly ... either you aren't playing the game or something else came up that will earn you points too! Dang skulk is blocking my path the way point area - oh well, I get points for fighting! Hey, he bit me - oh well, my buddy will get points for healing and welding me! Yay! Oh look, a command node (resource node) on the way to the way point, hey Commander, want to - ya, points for building! Whoo hooo!!!

But lets flip it around before anyone freaks out and thinks the Kharaa are screwed - Hive Mind (Kharaa Commander) to the rescue! Go my gorges, skulks, go the the way point areas that give you personal res too! Tra la la la, hop skip and step to build, heal, bite candy land!

Er, sorry if I ramble, I was just opening the brain storming flood gates there.

Edit: Oh! And I meant to mention that there is another bonus to this for the Commander themself - where ever they happen to be looking, that is to say, the frontline where ever that happens to be, should be where the action is. Way point areas they place indicate thanks to their view point, that is most likely where there will be running, shooting, and other various kinds of mayhem going on. Toss in some sort of Commander "spell" (though there must be a better word for it, like tachyon tech) system, and they get to join in on the action too!

corpsman

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bite candy land!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

bite candy land? hahahaha Too funny <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />



I really really like the idea of a waypoint radius! The game will auto detect the people in it, and their res pool grows as they stay within the area doing whatever. Those who instead do something else [base camp, run off] wont see their res pool grow. Also, this still leaves complete freedom for the commander to reward those who didn't follow the waypoints for whatever reason just like regular [ninjas]. Good stuff. Of course the radius won't be some tiny 3X3 foot area where everyone has to be standing in it exactly, but it could easily be regulated by the developers [smaller/larger] for balance. Some rooms are very large, and I know alot of times we all rush in and spread out [especially for hive rooms], so not everyone <b>would</b> have to be standing in a small circle.

The only two possible "cons" I could initally think of is when the commander is too busy, or doesnt need to give everyone orders, such as at the begining of the game when everyone just runs out of the base to capture nodes, and when a room has more then one opening [such as hive rooms that have 2-3 openings]. So in order for this to work, the commander couldn't just sit there and let people go wherever without waypoints. They would either have to constantly be giving them to people, in order for them to move and get "points" for it, or the game could have a sort of "switch" that turns on and off [free-roam] for the players.

Example: Commander lets people do whatever during certain parts/times of a game, freeroam is turned off. Commander then wants everyone to get to a hive, so he starts setting destination waypoints.

I could see giving the waypoint radius a timer of maybe 1 minute, since after one minute if the commander hasn't given new order s yet, well, that teams either not gonna win anyways, or kicking ass and the commander is dropping stuff for everyone [res pool is trivial during that time]. So after one minute it could auto turn off and go back to free-roam mode, then when he uses a waypoint it auto turns on and starts using the radius to give marines the goods.

I thought a room with more then one opening would be a problem too, since we usually attack from more then one opening. This however could easily be countered by using large radius waypoint markers. I don't see this being a problem because when people run off and "do their own thing," they are usually on the other side of the map, literally. And of course the commander still has at any time the ability to give them whatever he wants/needs to, but this would apply to the majority of the players sticking together.

So I still wanted to write out these two possible solutions to potential problem, so if they arrise [or the concern by others like I had], obviously these could easily be remedied by making the WP radius large and having an auto timer. If the waypoint radius on/off was used, then it could easily be done by the games engine, so the commander doesn't need a manual switch [streamlined]. Also, if anyone attacks from different angles, they will still be in the radius, since campers are back at base doing nothing, or on the other side of the map. *shrug*

**The only other possible problem I see is people who don't spend the res. If someone was lpaying a more defensive role and didn't sopend the res on weapons and such, then how else could they spend it? Maybe they would be allowed to buy something else like defensive weapons [mines], or armor? I would definitely buy mines and place them all around the RTs I build, but that's me.... Any ideas? I do like to blast fools every now and then, don't get me wrong, but "what if"? I sometimes also end up with lots of saved res as a gorge, because I run out of room to build and can't go any further since I would be in the line of fire. That's what fades are for! hehe <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> My only idea is maybe having the option for the "user/marine" [not commander] to upgrade a station of turret or something? Build a defensive stand alone unit or something maybe? *shrug*

naggy

<!--quoteo(post=1666969:date=Jan 10 2008, 01:46 AM:name=corpsman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(corpsman @ Jan 10 2008, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point is positive reinforcement and motivation for team work. Whether it be getting kills, welding, building, whatever. Anything that promotes teamwork should be encouraged and rewarded, otherwise you end up with more John Rambos, and less teamwork. It gets old.

I have played games where everyone else was HA and had big guns, but I had only a welder. All I did was either sit on top of an AA, crouched down, welding people coming back for reloads; or, welding people who moved to the back of the heavy train while they reloaded. I very often heard thank yous too. That was of course after the constant screams and text messages saying "WELD ME!" I don't think welding should be downplayed. What do gorges do for the majority of their time during battles, besides building structures? Any fades, ONOSs, or lerks will back me up on that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I see where your coming from, but to make it work effectively there would be a fine line between balanced and unbalanced. Maybe if the player got score points, instead of res, it could work. That way the player would be seen as doing something beneficial for the team as apposed to just sitting there welding and not getting any recognition for it.

<!--quoteo(post=1666969:date=Jan 10 2008, 01:46 AM:name=corpsman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(corpsman @ Jan 10 2008, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, people will spawn camp and armory camp no matter what you do, but I see what your saying. It kinda makes them either go out and earn their "stuff," or sit in base and do nothing, but also get nothing. I wonder then how the developers could draw the line between the players vs. a commander's control over a team, and focus on whats happening. I see you point and agree, but with people earning their own stuff, that could ALSO be said to encourage whoring/camping and people just doing whatever for bigger guns. i.e. "get to your way point soldier," soldier says "screw you, i'm gonna go get kills so I earn more res for a bigger weapon and a JP."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This could be easily fixed by making the initial resource gain very slow, so even if they do spend their time whoring up res and ignoring the commanders orders, by the time they have their favored weapon and armor upgrades chances are there will be a few skulks or a fade waiting around the corner to eat their face. If they were to stick with the team, and do things together as a team, they would have a higher chance of survival.

Being in a group > more survivability > killing more enemy players/structures > gaining more resources.

Henceforth making going off and doing their own thing detrimental for both themselves, and the team. By making the player value their lives and their weapons/armor, it adds depth. This makes the game more team based as going off solo means they will most likely die and have to wait for more resources to regain what they lost as apposed to being able to go around in a group with high powered weapons and obliterate everything in sight.

Group of 4 rines with SG = dead Skulks/Fade (of course, this is situational.)

<!--quoteo(post=1666969:date=Jan 10 2008, 01:46 AM:name=corpsman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(corpsman @ Jan 10 2008, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1666969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Too much control taken away from the commander WILL and DOES mean people doing more of their own thing. It is fun to run off and just do whatever, but in the bigger picture you won't <i>usually</i> win unless you go where the commander can drop stations, turrets, PGs and packs for everyone. So I see what your saying, my idea would encourage some people to camp at base until the commander put res nito the stations, but I see other problems with giving people their own res pools, since it could end up with less people following orders.

Maybe then [with your idea in mind] the commander should have some sort of regulatory control over how much res they get, that way if they start to sway "off course," he can "pull em in" by changnig what they get. Same as what they do with NS 1! When you act up, he doesn't drop stuff. Some sort of slider bar, or % gauge the comm can regulate. So if the team is doing well and winning [he knows best since he DOES see the overall picture] then he can give them more from the teams res, and if they start screwing off more, or people wander away being stupid, the commander could turn it back down until they correct their actions. The "team punishment" approach does often work when done right. People only tolerate others screwing up for so long. This would promote teamwork!

So now I do like your idea more, but how could the commander regulate the res pool, to keep the team on track? I can only imagine some sort of option the comm can change when they feel they need to. The bad side of my proposal is also that it would require constant attention, sliding the regulation bar back and forth. Sounds like a step in the wrong direction since they wanted to streamline the commanders process, but I think something should <b>definitely</b> be in place for the commander to have their say!

Any ideas?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

TBH, the only way that NS2 will work effectively with personal resources would be to borrow the same system as (I'm literally gagging here typing this) TF2. TF2's score system encourages people to do what their class is good at, be it healing other team members, sapping turrets, or capturing points. By using this type of method, and making commanders requests more valuable in terms of score, the player would be hurting themselves by going off to doing their own thing and ignore the commanders orders..

Or in a more simplified manor,<b> make doing what the commander wants more rewarding than <u>anything</u> else.</b>

To me, that is what NS originally failed at, because even if you did do what the commander wanted you to, you got nothing in return besides more res towers and turret factory's (which is why people would just walk off and do whatever they wanted.)

Sure, winning is fun, but if the time leading up to the win isn't, whats the point of playing?

Harimau

<!--quoteo(post=1667052:date=Jan 11 2008, 04:31 PM:name=naggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naggy @ Jan 11 2008, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667052"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or in a more simplified manner,<b> make doing what the commander wants more rewarding than <u>anything</u> else.</b>

To me, that is what NS originally failed at, because even if you did do what the commander wanted you to, you got nothing in return besides more res towers and turret factory's (which is why people would just walk off and do whatever they wanted.)

Sure, winning is fun, but if the time leading up to the win isn't, whats the point of playing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can say I definitely agree with that.

But.. hmm... Seems to me like, at this point, we've exhausted every fresh and new idea. We're just repeating the same ideas really-- hell, we're even repeating the same arguments.

locallyunscene

To echo what <b>Harimau</b> said that is a very good observation <b>naggy</b>, and I also agree. Maybe the comm could place "defend area" or "assault area" markers that would provide bonuses for Kharaa killed there. This is part of the reason I think marine resources need to be credits, because we don't want to increase real marine res flow for followed orders.