Knife Upgrades & Leg Implants
Domining
Join Date: 2007-09-27 Member: 62452Members
Join Date: 2007-09-27 Member: 62452Members
Hold on to your chair, its a 2 part post! (I'll keep it short because theres no need to overcomplicate ideas)
Knife upgrades:
Marine melee upgrades are researched through some new weapon upgrade building.
L0: Standard NS knife, same damage and reach
L1: The only necessary knife upgrade, extends range to > skulk bite and upgrades knife damage +30%.
L2: A quick, cheap upgrade which adds a stun prod to the bottom of the knife for a secondary
L3: Arms all of your marines with chain saws so they can plow through all buildings and skulks in a matter of nanoseconds.
Leg Implants/movement upgrades
Researched at some unimportant research building (implant lab maybe?)
L0: Standard NS mode
L1: Faster movement, special chip allows faster PG cycling speed
L2: Faster movement + the ability to long jump and cling to walls and jump off walls
L3: Faster movement + unrestricted bunnies (outside of proto suits)
I think these have plenty of potential as side-upgrades which commanders can choose to research if they want, but won't make too much of a difference.
Knife upgrades:
Marine melee upgrades are researched through some new weapon upgrade building.
L0: Standard NS knife, same damage and reach
L1: The only necessary knife upgrade, extends range to > skulk bite and upgrades knife damage +30%.
L2: A quick, cheap upgrade which adds a stun prod to the bottom of the knife for a secondary
L3: Arms all of your marines with chain saws so they can plow through all buildings and skulks in a matter of nanoseconds.
Leg Implants/movement upgrades
Researched at some unimportant research building (implant lab maybe?)
L0: Standard NS mode
L1: Faster movement, special chip allows faster PG cycling speed
L2: Faster movement + the ability to long jump and cling to walls and jump off walls
L3: Faster movement + unrestricted bunnies (outside of proto suits)
I think these have plenty of potential as side-upgrades which commanders can choose to research if they want, but won't make too much of a difference.
Comments
Movement, I like the idea of a long jump (alot) but again the marines should not be faster than the aliens. Also what do you mean by "special chip allows faster PG cycling speed"?
Aliens will also get upgrades as time progresses.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Movement, I like the idea of a long jump (alot) but again the marines should not be faster than the aliens. Also what do you mean by "special chip allows faster PG cycling speed"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By the time marines get leg implants l3 aliens would already have 2 fades with 2 hive abilities. Faster PG cycling speed means that the PG cooldown is less, meaning you can get like 50 people through a pg in 2 seconds.
warsow*
the idea of rines bouncing down corridors at 60mph to engage aliens in knife combat doesnt strike me as being particularly ns. even if the timeing and cost of the upgrades was balanced it would still lean the rines towards more alien style game play which would reduce the diversity in the game.
having said that i like the idea of implants but maybe leg implants that only improve booking speed, arm implants that increase weapon accuracy or weapon switch times. And head implants that add things to the HUD
Nice ideas, I think that would be some interesting technology to research for the marines. Also, another way to look at it could be upgrading the nanites programs that the marine is already using, to do certain things. In a way, we already have this in NS1, the catalyst packs. It would be interesting to break down and expand upon the existing catalyst technology.
By 'booking' speed I take it you are referring to another thread where we discussed sprinting, and if I remember right, booking involved lowering your weapon while you run for an extra speed, so that you can "advance to the rear" faster or perhaps move under covering fire or perhaps because you want to be a free meal for the Kharaa that sooner by heading deeper into their territory - though, who knows, some people ninja hives really well and play the spy in TF2 really well, so it could be a covert op with the use of 'booking' it. I imagine booking it can be kind of loud as well, not exactly a stealthy move.
By improved accuracy I take it you mean a slightly smaller cone of fire? That would be interesting, because in some situations, its actually beneficial to have a larger cone of fire, if you remember what it was like playing NS1 for the first time, the shot gun's large cone made it one of my favourite weapons, especially since it was easier to get than the HMG. Could there be a way to make weapons less accurate on purpose too? Mmm, spray and pray!
What kind of Heads Up Display program improvements might be interesting... Say, lead indicators to track a target? Target identifier indicators? Information on the Kharaa upgrades? Target armor or health information?
I dunno, but it seems to me that Dom just wants to hop around pwning n00bs with his l33t knife skillz, so he can LOL gg them, and feel good about himself. I'm not trying to pick a fight, that's honestly what I think.
As for implants in general, they <b>could</b> work. CaWolf's ideas aren't bad. Hell, even weapon upgrades in general sound like a good idea (researching and <b>adding</b> a secondary fire, perhaps?). Just not the way Dom wants it...
but why not the vibroblades, or monowire (wire?)
i'd assume that the knives in NS already have a monofilament, self-restoring (vibrating?) edge
Well, I don't know, but I'm sure someone here, more familiar with the lore, knows. Care to enlighten us?
- unless vibroblades and monowire are very specific weapons, rather than technologies. swords and saws (and "piano wires") in NS? No thanks.
Regarding the OP, I agree with <b>Invader Zim</b> that this isn't really NS style gameplay and would make the marines resemble the Kharaa in an unnecessary way. If you want to bounce down the hall with your knife out play Kharaa. If you want to play as a team and get cover from your mates play as marines. This would also encourage the lone rambo which NS2 doesn't need.
You start the marines off with one of two classes, either jedi or frontiersmen. Then they can switch between heavy medium and light, and if they're on heavy and press attack+forward+jump they auto kill a fade if they hit it!
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I just don't want to feel like I have 50 bricks on my back compared to warsow, or that I can auto double jump like scout in TF2 without thinking about it or having it gain any advantage in speed. I don't like how reliant wsw is on rocketjumping but its movement systems are very good. I'm sure you can work something out that won't look like trash but will keep a <b>skill-based</b> movement system isntead of just a way of going faster.
As for the second video (what game is that? assassin's creed?), and well, both videos; I think that kind of movement could be great in a fast combat-oriented game. But not for NS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> (first of all, there are no scalable walls or obstacles; second, it doesn't suit the image or practicality of a marine, burdened by equipment as he is; there are probably other reasons, but those are the main ones)
As for the second video (what game is that? assassin's creed?), and well, both videos; <b>I think that kind of movement could be great in a fast combat-oriented game.</b> But not for NS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> (first of all, there are no scalable walls or obstacles; second, it doesn't suit the image or practicality of a marine, burdened by equipment as he is; there are probably other reasons, but those are the main ones)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't make the videos but they were what I found on Youtube in quick search fashion that I thought might give an idea of what is possible. Unreal Tournament series also comes to mind and I'm not completely sure but Quake series had some acrobatics, didn't it? Oh, and Splinter Cell series, that had some as well.
I highlighted something there, and I find that interesting that you think that is not Natural Selection. NS1 is a very fast paced game, the maps just happen to be bigger than you find in most mods that were like it. Its so fast in fact, that I am sure we are well aware that a match can and has been decided within seconds of the match starting. And the Modders, now Unknown Worlds Devs, who made NS1, left bunny hopping in, surely there was a reason for that. Yes, there is strategy in the game, which I thoroughly enjoy, but this is by no means a slow game.
I do believe your points are open to debate:
1) Scalable walls / obstacles - marines with ladders and skulks can do that, so it is there.
2) Image - marines can be hulks in armor, zipping through the air, pumped up speed freaks, so lightly armored they don't even cover their faces though they are in space, instant healing from thin air...
And Burdened By Equipment - They don't have to be. If they can put on equipment, they can take it off, say, put on a set of nanite ninja armor, crap for carrying things, crap for armor value, but all acrobatic.
Plus, this further sets our Space Marines apart from say, Aliens Space Marines or Star Craft Space Marines or the other multitude of various incarnations of humans within a military structure traversing through space to combat who knows what. Natural Selection marines could be far more adaptable to everyone's favourite play styles if we let them. There is definitely more than one way to look at Marines, do we want to copy other games that way or be different?
When I think 'acrobatics' and stunts in a combat game I'm thinking something more along the lines of The Specialists - or, as you say, Unreal Tournament.
<b>I</b> find it interesting that you think that <b>is</b> Natural Selection.
I believe that in <b>a fast-paced combat game</b> the free running style <b>can</b> work - and I haven't seen it yet implemented as such, though I would very much like to.
But the fact is, neither the le'parkour-style 'scaling' nor the 'acrobatics' fit the military theme of the Marines in NS. I can't see how you can disagree with that.
1) No. First of all we're only discussing marines. Second, when people climb a ladder, do you seriously think they pull stunts and tricks? Never mind the fact that these are professional soldiers. Third, <b>you know</b> that there are hardly any obstacles in NS the like of what was shown in your example videos (the first of which was essentially <b>urban environments</b> perhaps reminiscent of the urban Tony Hawk's skateboarding games).
2) You've seen the concept art. You know the atmosphere. You've seen the emphasis on immersion and realism (within the context of the universe). What you're suggesting, a) runs counter to the vision already set in NS, b) gives NS a cartoony/circusy feel to it that does not possibly fit with the "dark and dangerous" theme in NS.
And I believe that rather than having <i>a reason to keep bunny hopping in</i>, the <b>modders</b> that created Natural Selection lacked (sufficient) <i>reasons to take it out</i>, given their constraints (time-wise, or not wanting to change the game too much that it'll break), or perhaps their freedom (in that they don't strictly <b>need</b> to create the very-highest-quality product). So rather than bunny-hopping marines being <b>a part of their vision</b> as you're suggesting, bunny-hopping was an incidental part of the mod, that they left in because it conveniently gave the marines enough freedom of movement to be able to compete combat-wise against the aliens - which, I believe, unfortunately has been... 'exploited' shall we say... and has developed into raving lunatics of marines on invisible pogo sticks.
It's not about 'copying other games' or films, it's about <b>realism within a context</b>.
In Team Fortress 2, you've got a very cartoony world, so sure, give the heavy's extra health and let them carry around gatling guns, let the scouts double jump, let players hit other players single-handedly with baseball bats; that's realistic within that context.
UT is a death-match game that involves pretty much one thing - kill your opponents. It's a gladiator-type of arena, where style is just as important as substance. It does not really deal with the concepts of 'survival' or 'military conflict'. It deals with killing with style, and acrobatics, and possibly winning the crowd. The 'fighters' in UT are hardly disciplined soldiers.
NS on the other hand is a world a lot more akin to <b>ours</b> (technically, it <b>is</b> our world, but in the future), professional soldiers (in all the colourful history of humanity) do not do acrobatic stunts when eliminating the enemy.
agree 100% whit you
bunnyhop destroy the feeling, the addmoshere and sometimes the balance
from games who have it (eccept UNREAL turnament and quake)
The modern military was brought up - are you aware of some of the origins of modern day free running / parkour was from various militaries, particularily the French military seeking speed through bombed out rural areas. So I disagree that professional military types would not use parkour / acrobatics within their movements.
I know its just a movie but have you seen the use of Parkour in Live Free or Die Hard? You know, just like Aliens is a movie. Both present different approaches, the makers of Aliens even said they were going for feel of the Space Marines borrowed heavily from Vietnam military type films of their day, like Platoon and the like.
And it doesn't stop there, there is a reason why it is used in The Specialists - if I remember right that was a mod for Half-Life 1, kind of like Action Half Life - the movies it was influenced by used acrobatics for a reason, giving your enemy less to shoot at, fast movement between cover, getting the element of surprise, getting the high ground ... these are all things that come from military doctrine, which basicly follows the tenet of "Do whatever it takes to survive and accomplish your mission"
And you are going to have the audacity to tell me that a military man isn't going to at the very least dive for cover, let alone seek every advantage possible to defeat their enemy? I suppose the use of acrobatics, stealthy insertions, hurry up & wait, shoot & scoot, use of effective cover and other various concepts do not enter into the picture with Marines? Are we playing the same game, where ninja'ing a hive and bunny hop to dodge and make distance between your marine character and a kharaa character doesn't happen?
And I could have sworn the Devs have been quoted as having left bunny hopping in on purpose, not for a lack of being aware or lack of effort. I'll try to find it, maybe just someone else misquoted them, but I am pretty sure it is there somewhere that it was on purpose, and thus meant to be a part of the atmosphere, no matter how much you and I think it looks silly.
Check this post out that I found:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Flayra
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Posted on: Mar 1 2002, 10:52 AM
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OK, I'm not promising, but I'll try to get an NSTR2 update out to you folks before race night. �In it, I'm thinking of including:
�1. Player IDs (when you look at someone)
�<b>2. Allowing bunny jumping (there should be SOME racing skill involved)</b>
�3. Holding crouch means you can't fall off walls
I'm not sure if I'll have time to work on it, or if the auto-update will work smoothly, but we'll see. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Check out the part I bolded. That is the reason I am suggesting the use of acrobatics, sliding, diving, rolling, and other things seen in Parkour, not because I think it fits Natural Selection, but because it is part of the original conception of Natural Selection to include "SOME racing skill involved". I just think it can look better and possibly be far more substantial than what it currently is in NS1, is that so bad?
BY booking i mean a kind of sprint mode discussed by the devs.
Whilst booking it parkour and high manovereability makes sence to me but jumping and free runing at the same time as shooting seems a bit far fetched. i spose u could use ur knife but this may lead to balance issues
BY booking i mean a kind of sprint mode discussed by the devs.
Whilst booking it parkour and high manovereability makes sence to me but jumping and free runing at the same time as shooting seems a bit far fetched. i spose u could use ur knife but this may lead to balance issues<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, I want my hands free to get the hell out of dodge. Honestly, at most the pistol if it stops being snipe weapon and no knife (or other melee) so that stays in the realm of playing the Kharaa, for the asymmetrical game play. Though, you should know that free running and shooting at the same time is possible in real life, though most people only recognize as choreographed movie gun fights, those who are aware of how to quickly enter and move through an area such as in shoot house ranges for training, do it fact use some parkour to move through the house quickly while presenting as small as possible a sight picture to the enemy. In terms of game play though, I would be very happy if a marine had to sacrifice offensive capability for improved mobility - this would be the opposite of most of the Kharaa experiences, where improved mobility means improved offensive capability.
Edit: Oh, remembered another movie that used Parkour for some of its action scenes: Casino Royale, that new James Bond movie that was a remake of the first one.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>(courtesy of wikipedia)</i> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkour" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkour</a>
Parkour is an activity with the aim of moving from one point to another as <b>efficiently and quickly as possible</b>, using principally the abilities of the human body. It is meant to help one overcome <b>obstacles</b>, which can be anything in the surrounding environment — from branches and rocks to rails and concrete walls
parkour focuses on practicing efficient movements to develop one's body and mind to be able to overcome obstacles in an emergency.
Thus, when faced with a hostile confrontation with a person, one will be able to speak, fight, or flee. As martial arts are a form of training for the fight, parkour is a form of training for the flight.
An important characteristic of parkour is efficiency. Practitioners move not only as fast as they can, but also in the least energy-consuming and most direct way possible. <b>This characteristic distinguishes it from the similar practice of <i>free running</i>, which places more emphasis on freedom of movements, such as <i>acrobatics</i>.</b> Efficiency also involves avoiding injuries, short and long-term, part of why parkour's unofficial motto is être et durer (to be and to last).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, I will acknowledge that <b>Parkour</b> is a viable discipline for the Military. In fact it sounds very interesting and useful. However:
A. <i>(Why what you're suggesting isn't actually Parkour)</i> Efficiency. <b>NO acrobatics.</b>
B. <i>(Why Parkour doesn't "fit" NS)</i> Obstacles. NS does not have any of these kinds of obstacles. Sure, it has some rails, but on the other side they usually lead straight down into a pit. It has walls, but hardly the kind that Parkour practitioners are known for traversing.
C. <i>(Why this isn't really relevant)</i> Bunnyhopping is NOT Parkour - in fact, it couldn't be further from it. Based on the philosophy of Parkour, sprinting to your target is more "Parkour" than hopping your way there like a lunatic.
In addition, and I simply paraphrase, Parkour is a discipline for the 'flight', as martial arts are disciplines for the 'fight'. Bunny-hopping as a marine is used less as a means to run away, than as a means to avoid alien attacks so you don't die as you put a few bullets in them.
Now, as for your quote. You are aware, I presume, that that quote is in reference to <b>skulks</b>?
I'm sure you're also aware, as I have stated this more than once, that I have no qualms about Aliens having bunny-hopping, or related or similar movements - only Marines.
So that you can reload your arguments, I'm going to paste a part of my previous post that I believe you haven't fully addressed (which was in response to your "do we want NS to be copying other media?" query, which I find quite hypocritical, considering you've just mentioned half a dozen different media with Parkour/Acrobatics or similar in their fight scenes):
<!--quoteo(post=1667166:date=Jan 12 2008, 03:41 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 12 2008, 03:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not about 'copying other games' or films, it's about <b>realism within a context</b>.
In Team Fortress 2, you've got a very cartoony world, so sure, give the heavy's extra health and let them carry around gatling guns, let the scouts double jump, let players hit other players single-handedly with baseball bats; that's realistic within that context.
UT is a death-match game that involves pretty much one thing - kill your opponents. It's a gladiator-type of arena, where style is just as important as substance. It does not really deal with the concepts of 'survival' or 'military conflict'. It deals with killing with style, and acrobatics, and possibly winning the crowd. The 'fighters' in UT are hardly disciplined soldiers.
NS on the other hand is a world a lot more akin to <b>ours</b> (technically, it <b>is</b> our world, but in the future), professional soldiers (in all the colourful history of humanity) do not do acrobatic stunts when eliminating the enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
more can i not say
In regards to media, I was just thinking of other <b>games</b> to be honest (you will notice I used the word games specifically in my prevous post), for the reason that they are in direct competition (unless you are silly like me and just attempt to purchase as many games as possible). Games being influenced other media, even other games, is kind of unavoidable, in fact encouraged it seems, these days so that there is synergy between giving the customers more of what they want. Examples of this seem to be that the Aliens (and Aliens vs Predator games ... and I suppose now the movies too), the second movie especially seem to be brought up by many in the forums. Other references that seem to be brought up quite a bit is Starcraft. Personally, I have thought such comparisons were unfair to Natural Selection, as I see it as having gone in its own distinct directions.
And I am just suggesting another possible way it can become more distinct.
Since there are those who like the bunny hopping because they think it takes skill and there are those like myself who think bunny hopping looks like its straight from the lowest part of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_Valley" target="_blank">Uncanny Valley</a>, I am trying to find a compromise and Free Running / Parkour is the closest thing I could come up with that shows a human body in motion that coincided closest with what bunny hopping as a marine accomplishes. Doesn't that meet "realism (I prefer the use of the word believability in games) within a context"?
If I never see another bunny hop I will be a happy man. If I see rolls, slides, dives, flips, twists... I will be a happy gamer. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Bunny hopping (probably <b>especially</b> with "rolls, slides, dives, flips, twists") is not Parkour. That's... probably closer to tricking; and a little to free running; neither of which fit the marines in NS - a military force comprised of professional soldiers. (and you know they're not mere conscripts/draftees, because the fiction material tells us they have been rigorously screened)
As for (games) media, you yourself have referenced many different games that <b>already</b> have that. From memory:
<i>Quake series
Unreal Tournament series
The Specialists
Action Half-Life</i>
And I think that is just plain contradictory to
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I am just suggesting another possible way it can become more distinct.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as well as, iirc, your wish for a more unique and distinct game - I forget your phrasing. (I consider those two as different ideas.) It <b>has</b> been done. Should it be done again? Sure, why not? But <b>NS2</b> doesn't need it, and doesn't match it.
As for other media like action films, I don't find that entirely separate. An influence is an influence. Whether it's a heartbreaking tragedy, or a half-forgotten phrase you recall uttered by your kindergarten teacher; inspiration is inspiration.
Let's say they put a flying ice dragon into Halo; (ignoring the fact that it's not canon) simply because they, well, thought it was cool. That would have totally ruined the experience. That's how I feel about bunny-hopping (or acrobatics, gymnastics) in Natural Selection. It's.. diminishing.
It's something less specific than an anachronism; it's something that's just out of place, like a piece that doesn't fit - the word's there, I just can't recall it. The word isn't quite important, but the idea is - and actually that idea is very much similar to / part of the concept of the <i>Uncanny Valley</i> that you've brought up a couple of times.
But, I think you do agree with me on this point. So I'm not sure why I'm actually bothering to say this.
Though, I must say, I don't think I contradicted myself at all, considering the two things Natural Selection is most often related to that I have seen in these forums, in terms of game play, Aliens Vs Predator and Star Craft, I am certain that allowing those players who enjoy mobility in their play style can only be a way to set yourself apart from that crowd.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But NS2 doesn't need it, and doesn't match it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If my experiences in NS1 are anything to go by, playing SWAT in space vs the Kharaa matches it even less.
An example:
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NS1 is pretty faced paced and Marines use that jump probably just as much as the Kharaa. Maybe its just a mistake of mine but I've always thought of jumping as something of an acrobatic experience. Perhaps my wording is off, seeing as I don't recognize the difference between Free Running and Parkour, I thought they were names for the same thing based off of videos I had seen - hell, before the videos I called it Fence Jumping and Tree Climbing as a kid, a way to escape from bullies and thugs. Hopefully that can help you understand why I would think that more ways to jump in NS2 would be a good thing.
I've <b>quoted</b> the difference, in that long thread about Parkour, Bunny-hopping and NS2. (the Jan 13 one)
Oh, I read that, perhaps the word I am looking for is something like I still don't grok (fully understand) the difference. For all the videos labeled Parkour or Free Running on Youtube, I honestly don't see the difference. To me they both look cool and effectively allow use of the human body in urban enviroments, which is the closest thing I can think of to fighting in a 'space age' structure. Sure, it may be of more practical benefit to just simply sprint down a hall on earth but for space marines, they honestly may not have the luxury of an ideal gravity to work with, so I imagine they would be trained in how to use both Parkour and Free Running so that they might be able to orient themselves, climb, and break fall more efficiently with the changing enviroments. So, I'm not surprised by Marines jumping, just how silly it looks.