Please show me some screenshots of an NS map, that <b>matches</b> the urban locations you've seen in those Parkour and Free Running videos.
They've explained the difference between Parkour and Free Running; the <i>people that upload the videos</i> themselves may <b>not know</b> the difference, so they think that "Parkour" is just a stylish way to say Free Running, which it isn't. Free Running is about athleticism, gymnastics and freedom of expression; Parkour is about getting from point A to B quickly, in the most efficient way possible, overcoming obstacles using the least amount of effort required.
<!--quoteo(post=1667601:date=Jan 16 2008, 01:44 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 16 2008, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please show me some screenshots of an NS map, that <b>matches</b> the urban locations you've seen in those Parkour and Free Running videos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Will you settle for video? <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WEeqHj3Nj2c"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WEeqHj3Nj2c" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center> <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yJbR7wUoNBg"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yJbR7wUoNBg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
I'm seeing enviroments that have the similar urban or industrial feel and that one could use 'whatever you want to call it' in - heck, lets call it "Marine Zero G Acrobatics" or something. I don't care much what its called, just so long as it is an improvement over the look and controls that exist currently for NS1 bunny hopping.
Is my interchanging of the words parkour and free running bugging you that much that you can't see how it is just an example for human movement that is agile? Does that movement look silly or cool? Could you see a marine using it to dodge and move through a map? Would it take skill to use? Could it satisfy the needs of those who like bunny hopping?
Oh, just in case you don't think it would mean much in a "fight" here is an interesting movie: <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TPIw3cv8Zls"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TPIw3cv8Zls" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
i quite like it but i dont think a rine could do it with a gun, especially not in hand, and the bigger weapons wud probs make the rine to unbalanced to do free running movements. So i guess maybe there should be a mobility suit upgrade,or implant enhancement or something, that could be researched. players that equip or get this upgrade could do free running movements but couldnt carry a primary weapon. So they could ninja but have low fire power. Maybe an smg model could be created especially for this upgrade.
Id give marines with this ability a low armour class too, cos armours cumbersome and heavy and would stop them from doing air manouvers. This could be the ultimate playing style of a leet. no primary weapon low armour, but he can move fast, behop, jump of walls and he has a knife and a secondary weapon.
Although i think you can fit this idea in to a sci fi context such as ns. Im not sure it would make good game play for everyone. It could be very irritating for skulks being bested at their own play style by leet rines.
Theres also a considerable programing consideration. to make this kind of movement look good would require some work by the devs.
(You and your videos... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
Video 1: Yeah, that's a cool vid. ** (Still, I think part of that video was free running and tricking - you can pretty much spot which moves.) Video 2: I'm sorry, I just don't see it. Where's the similarity? The only similarity I can see is that one scene with (the jetpack and) the wall-and-rail perpendicular to another wall connected to the lower floor - climbing that? But that kind of movement (scaling a wall) isn't possible in NS1 anyway. What else? marine buildings? Do you wanna be able to vault over marine buildings or something? Video 3: (Also a cool vid. I've actually seen it before. ) I'm not sure if you noticed this, but he's <b>running away</b> for god's sake.
** Okay, I wouldn't mind seeing, in NS2, (not too flashy- similar to what was shown in the first video, maybe less flashy in certain respects) Parkour-like movements to scale walls like what was just discussed, you've convinced me there. However, there's still a great lack of "Parkour-compatible" environments in NS. And NS2 is meant to have the same 'feel' as NS1, so I figure that won't change. Also, there's still the issue of how viable that is for a marine holding a weapon and burdened with equipment - you notice, from those videos, there is <b>a lot</b> of emphasis placed on using your arms, whether it's just to assist your movements/balance, or full-fledged grabbing [ I'm reminded of Dystopia, actually, where you can 'grab' onto ledges and small walls and such - if they'd made that look as good as it does in those videos, that would be awesome ]
But the important question here is: is bunny-hopping <b>anything</b> like Parkour, hell- even Free Running? <b>Not in the least.</b> For me, your videos have only helped reinforce that belief.
<!--quoteo(post=1667715:date=Jan 17 2008, 08:36 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 17 2008, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But the important question here is: is bunny-hopping <b>anything</b> like Parkour, hell- even Free Running? <b>Not in the least.</b> For me, your videos have only helped reinforce that belief.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hehe, I found a video...
How about this? I know its in first person, I know there is copious use of the jet pack, but especially watch near the end, around the 4:17 mark, where a LMG marine is doing what looks like a spawn camp or something, poor gorge:
Use of the circle strafe / side step jump (another way to say bunny hop) as a marine in NS1 has assured many a successful dodge by a marine. In addition we vault or balance on railings often, jump down a good distance, use a weapon while climbing a ladder...
That weapon on the ladder bugs me when its a two handed weapon being used. Oh well, add it to the list of things in NS1 I would like to be improved, ladder climbing animations and how it would affect a Marine's use of their equipment.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->invader Zim Posted Yesterday, 09:17 AM i quite like it but i dont think a rine could do it with a gun, especially not in hand, and the bigger weapons wud probs make the rine to unbalanced to do free running movements. So i guess maybe there should be a mobility suit upgrade,or implant enhancement or something, that could be researched. players that equip or get this upgrade could do free running movements but couldnt carry a primary weapon. So they could ninja but have low fire power. Maybe an smg model could be created especially for this upgrade.
Id give marines with this ability a low armour class too, cos armours cumbersome and heavy and would stop them from doing air manouvers. This could be the ultimate playing style of a leet. no primary weapon low armour, but he can move fast, behop, jump of walls and he has a knife and a secondary weapon.
Although i think you can fit this idea in to a sci fi context such as ns. Im not sure it would make good game play for everyone. It could be very irritating for skulks being bested at their own play style by leet rines.
Theres also a considerable programing consideration. to make this kind of movement look good would require some work by the devs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is such a good post. I agree, take away those two handed weapons, but I would take it even further, I don't want a Marine wearing the acrobatic armor to be like a skulk at all, take away the knife and let them have a really weak kick or have the kick be skill based somehow like you need to have momentum and gravity on your side for it do any damage at all.
Yeahh... Uhh, that doesn't show me anything. (was that video very blocky for everyone else too, or is it just my pc?)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Use of the circle strafe / side step jump (another way to say bunny hop) as a marine in NS1 has assured many a successful dodge by a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How many times must I say this... that isn't Parkour. Why that's important to us? Parkour is a viable discipline for emergency and military forces - the basis of your argument and I'll agree there. However, <b>bunny-hopping isn't Parkour.</b> Bunny-hopping, to me, is that repetitive bouncing that just looks so strange and incongruent - fair enough, you dodge a skulk leap by diving to the side - but then you BOUNCE back up, like there's an invisible trampoline, or an invisible pogo stick between your legs. There's no rest period for the leg muscles/bones/joints, no instance of leg muscles re-tensing, it's not physically possible - you try it. Jumping is fine. Anyone can jump. Bouncing, is something we can't do. Rather than acrobatic movements every time you jump - which would be even "more impossible" to pull off than up and down bouncing on your legs - there has to be some kind of limit placed on jumping (I'm not talking about a stamina system) "hop, step, jump" not "hop, bounce, hop".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In addition we vault or balance on railings often, jump down a good distance, use a weapon while climbing a ladder...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While this has nothing at all to do with bunny-hopping, I'll give it my best shot. Though I'm not sure what the weapon while climbing a ladder has to do with Parkour... can you even shoot accurately while on the ladder? in CS:S you can't. You could do it the battlefield way (or any other game, there are many) where you sling your weapon on your back or something, and climb the ladder with your hands. I think that, ascending, you should be able to climb quite fast - like the guy in that Parkour movie you pasted a clip of; and descending, you might just 'slide' down. I guess if you were on the ladder, but not climbing or descending, you could be able to hang on with one hand, and carry a weapon like a pistol, or the lmg single-handed, with a loss in accuracy.
But yes, we do vault/balance on railings often, and jump down good distances - but I don't know if it's enough to warrant new animations and perhaps a new way of movement entirely. The thing with drops in Parkour is to carry your momentum forward, usually achieved with rolls - will that work without interrupting gameplay, how will that work in the first person view?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, take away those two handed weapons, but I would take it even further, I don't want a Marine wearing the acrobatic armor to be like a skulk at all, take away the knife and let them have a really weak kick or have the kick be skill based somehow like you need to have momentum and gravity on your side for it do any damage at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You would <b>disarm</b> a soldier completely, and then send him out on the battlefield? I don't see frontiersmen marines being acrobats. I'm honestly surprised you can. I don't see kicks matching marines, (actually I don't see kicks going in any decent FPS) never mind the consideration of "how much damage could you do with a kick, to something that can take eight bullets in the face and still bite your leg off?"
<!--quoteo(post=1667809:date=Jan 18 2008, 10:54 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 18 2008, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeahh... Uhh, that doesn't show me anything. (was that video very blocky for everyone else too, or is it just my pc?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry about that, its really tough to find good examples for what I am trying to get at then I guess. It looked jagged for me too, I just thought you would be able to make out all the dodging and what not. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many times must I say this... that isn't Parkour. Why that's important to us? Parkour is a viable discipline for emergency and military forces - the basis of your argument and I'll agree there. However, <b>bunny-hopping isn't Parkour.</b> Bunny-hopping, to me, is that repetitive bouncing that just looks so strange and incongruent - fair enough, you dodge a skulk leap by diving to the side - but then you BOUNCE back up, like there's an invisible trampoline, or an invisible pogo stick between your legs. There's no rest period for the leg muscles/bones/joints, no instance of leg muscles re-tensing, it's not physically possible - you try it. Jumping is fine. Anyone can jump. Bouncing, is something we can't do. Rather than acrobatic movements every time you jump - which would be even "more impossible" to pull off than up and down bouncing on your legs - there has to be some kind of limit placed on jumping (I'm not talking about a stamina system) "hop, step, jump" not "hop, bounce, hop".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Honestly, I'm not trying to frustrate you by having you repeat yourself. I *know* it isn't parkour, that is part of my point. I completely agree with you, everything you have put forward are reasons why I would like to see something that not only looks better but also fits more accurately what the human body is capable of - and that before you try to consider the implications of what the nanites in the human body may be doing to augment this agility and mobility.
I took a look at all the arguments that say bunny hopping helps make NS1 awesome and tried to see if there was any way we could get rid of it but keep the things that are said to be good about it: Skills, Tactics, Dodging, Speed, etc. The answer I find that IMHO would help that along would be better controls and better animations, and the best source material for what the human body that I could find can accomplish that seems to correlate with those pros is Parkour AND Free Running. If you are aware of a better way we could improve NS2 that keeps what we like and gets rid of what we don't like, I would gladly like to hear it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While this has nothing at all to do with bunny-hopping, I'll give it my best shot. Though I'm not sure what the weapon while climbing a ladder has to do with Parkour... can you even shoot accurately while on the ladder? in CS:S you can't. You could do it the battlefield way (or any other game, there are many) where you sling your weapon on your back or something, and climb the ladder with your hands. I think that, ascending, you should be able to climb quite fast - like the guy in that Parkour movie you pasted a clip of; and descending, you might just 'slide' down. I guess if you were on the ladder, but not climbing or descending, you could be able to hang on with one hand, and carry a weapon like a pistol, or the lmg single-handed, with a loss in accuracy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wasn't referring to CS but rather my experiences in NS1 with regards to being able to shoot from a ladder with a two handed weapon and the animation Marines have for climbing (as in lack of any) makes it function and look just as silly as bunny hopping, IMHO. I agree, pistol, single hand LMG with more spray and pray like accuracy, and the way to ascend and descend quicker without offensive capability would all be really good ways for NS2 to improve.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But yes, we do vault/balance on railings often, and jump down good distances - but I don't know if it's enough to warrant new animations and perhaps a new way of movement entirely. The thing with drops in Parkour is to carry your momentum forward, usually achieved with rolls - will that work without interrupting gameplay, how will that work in the first person view?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How would it look in first person? I imagine no different than it does now - something like jump, the view goes to crouch height, you move a bit in the direction you are holding the movement keys or the direction you are facing towards, then go to a stand height again. I would not like it if the screen suddenly did a roll or whatever for any of the mobility, kind of the same way I feel about skulk wall walking view rotating - if it is jarring and nauseating, forget it. The animations that others see would be the key importance for continued suspension of disbelief.
Also, no need to change it for any kind of other armor really, jet pack, heavy, etc. Those have different kinds of mobility as is, where for greater armor you move slower or where your break fall is the opposing thrust. I think the way a vanilla (default) marine's armor is sectional enough it would allow enough for some animations. But for the idea to really shine I think the marines need a new set of armor, "nanite ninja" armor.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You would <b>disarm</b> a soldier completely, and then send him out on the battlefield? I don't see frontiersmen marines being acrobats. I'm honestly surprised you can. I don't see kicks matching marines, (actually I don't see kicks going in any decent FPS) never mind the consideration of "how much damage could you do with a kick, to something that can take eight bullets in the face and still bite your leg off?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I would see it as a trade off, increased mobility and agility (and maybe even stealth) for decreased offensive, armor, and carrying capability. Plus, taking away melee would mean that stays as something the Kharaa does, being mobile, agile, and melee. Instead, if they did get into a fight, the emphasis would be placed on flight (as in the "Fight OR Flight" saying) for the marine, to get away and get back before their smaller armor gets them killed.
The kicking was just some brain storming on a possible replacement, something I recall playing with in Duke Nukem 3D but tossing in the idea of physics from HL2, where a "ninja" armored marine would use their momentum to turn themselves into a thrown object of sorts.
With regards to the "bullets in face, take your leg off", skulks often rip into marines and the marine can still walk, so I would think that is an unsubstantiated claim. I don't think you were proposing hobbling, hamstringing, disemboweling, maiming or decapitating marines, so I am guessing it was an intentional exaggeration of the offensive capabilities of the skulk. But you do seem to be under the impression that kicks are not a appropriate response to something with razor sharp teeth, like it would be an invitation to be a haunch on a Kharaa thanksgiving day celebration table - from my own experience with hostile dogs and taking into consideration that a marine's boot must offer some space nano tech protection to the foot, not to mention any shin, knee, thigh or cup protection that may be there: A well placed and speedy kick to the snout, neck/throat, eyes, mid section, or legs can produce results that will stop the attacking animal in its tracks, especially if they are in the middle of a lunge. But assuming that a Kharaa life form is not a wolf, dog, cougar, etc but something far more dangerous because of its own carapace, I would guess that sufficient momentum would be needed for the kick to transfer enough kinetic energy through the carapace to damage vital organs. While a bullet may have more velocity and exert more armor piercing capability, the human body's weight with sufficient momentum should be able to inflict some damage.
So, wait, you're saying we DO get rid of bunny-hopping, and replace it with Parkour? Then what the hell have we been arguing about?
Actually no, that isn't what you said earlier. You said, you don't mind if they keep bunny-hopping, if they made the animations acrobatic (apparently, like Parkour and Free Running). <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> That makes less sense than bunny-hopping alone does. Not only are you expected to be able to 'bounce'; somehow you're expected to be able to do flips and dives, while keeping up that <b>bouncing</b>. <b>Bouncing</b> isn't jumping. To me, <b>bunny-hopping is bouncing</b> - which is impossible for the human body to do. Augmentation is not enough, you'd have to replace the legs entirely. Unless you want to retract that statement?
<!--quoteo(post=1667826:date=Jan 19 2008, 05:22 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jan 19 2008, 05:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How would it look in first person? I imagine no different than it does now - something like jump, the view goes to crouch height, you move a bit in the direction you are holding the movement keys or the direction you are facing towards, then go to a stand height again. I would not like it if the screen suddenly did a roll or whatever for any of the mobility, kind of the same way I feel about skulk wall walking view rotating - if it is jarring and nauseating, forget it. The animations that others see would be the key importance for continued suspension of disbelief.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, okay, won't it still interrupt the gameplay/action though? When you drop from a height in NS, there is no change in your first person view - since there's no special movement for it. I think that, you should be able to jump higher by crouching first - crouch-jump; but in addition to this, you'd be able to drop from a good height by crouching on 'impact' - really it's what most people do on instinct, but still: It would be a bit of a skill-based movement, and would give the average marine the potential for more mobility. edit: ..so I just thought of this, but, the default animation for the 'crouch-landing' while moving forward (which would provide even greater 'shock-absorbency' than regular crouch-landing) could be that 'rolling movement' seen in parkour. It would work, because the View would change, because you told it to; it wouldn't be automatic (and disorienting?) like what you just suggested. The view would change (to crouch), your third person animation would change, and the shock-absorbency would change; because <b>you</b> timed the crouch and the roll.
<!--quoteo(post=1667826:date=Jan 19 2008, 05:22 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jan 19 2008, 05:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead, if they did get into a fight, the emphasis would be placed on flight (as in the "Fight OR Flight" saying) for the marine, to get away and get back before their smaller armor gets them killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So... what's the point of this 'ninja nanite armour' - you can't fight with it. Welding? Setting up traps? Mines, explosive charges?
I disagree that a kick could do any real damage to a Kharaa life-form. (And you keep talking about momentum, how would they generate that momentum? A lot of kicks aren't aerial, or 'spinning', and so the power comes from the muscles in your legs, not the momentum of your body.) It's also the basis of my 'stock smash' suggestion for an alternate fire for the LMG; it does little to no damage, and would not be viable as a combat weapon, but provides a 'knock back' (for smaller creatures like skulks) to give you some breathing room.
<!--quoteo(post=1667848:date=Jan 19 2008, 01:30 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 19 2008, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, wait, you're saying we DO get rid of bunny-hopping, and replace it with Parkour? Then what the hell have we been arguing about?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, if I thought we were arguing I would have just stopped quite a while ago, I thought we were hashing out what could help make NS2 better.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually no, that isn't what you said earlier. You said, you don't mind if they keep bunny-hopping, if they made the animations acrobatic (apparently, like Parkour and Free Running). <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know what I said, I just thought that way it would no longer resemble anything like what we currently experience with bunny hopping.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That makes less sense than bunny-hopping alone does. Not only are you expected to be able to 'bounce'; somehow you're expected to be able to do flips and dives, while keeping up that <b>bouncing</b>. <b>Bouncing</b> isn't jumping. To me, <b>bunny-hopping is bouncing</b> - which is impossible for the human body to do. Augmentation is not enough, you'd have to replace the legs entirely. Unless you want to retract that statement?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh! There we go, you think of bunny hop as a bounce, which is what it looks like now in NS1, yes? I was thinking of bunny hop as a bizarre twist on the jump, since that is what you have to press to make it happen. I can see that now, yes, I hate the bounce thing. So hopefully you can see that I am now proposing to get rid of bunny hop, replace it with the more human movement because there are still those who enjoy aspects of the previous bunny hop. I'm trying to explore if a ++ situation is possible, rather than a straight up - situation, which is what I have wanted for years: - situation meaning just get rid of the damn bunny hop all together. So, I'm trying to find a compromise, and this is what I came up with: movement looking and playing as much fun as parkour and free running.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, okay, won't it still interrupt the gameplay/action though? When you drop from a height in NS, there is no change in your first person view - since there's no special movement for it. I think that, you should be able to jump higher by crouching first - crouch-jump; but in addition to this, you'd be able to drop from a good height by crouching on 'impact' - really it's what most people do on instinct, but still: It would be a bit of a skill-based movement, and would give the average marine the potential for more mobility. edit: ..so I just thought of this, but, the default animation for the 'crouch-landing' while moving forward (which would provide even greater 'shock-absorbency' than regular crouch-landing) could be that 'rolling movement' seen in parkour. It would work, because the View would change, because you told it to; it wouldn't be automatic (and disorienting?) like what you just suggested. The view would change (to crouch), your third person animation would change, and the shock-absorbency would change; because <b>you</b> timed the crouch and the roll.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that would be playable also. My previous thoughts were that it could be a automatic system, but this manual system seems cool too <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I could have fun with that!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So... what's the point of this 'ninja nanite armour' - you can't fight with it. Welding? Setting up traps? Mines, explosive charges?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, the point is to give something to those who like to bunny hop but make it not be uber armor that somehow makes someone invincible. Do you know how hard it would be to kill a guy as a Kharaa if they could get away from your melee most of the time and shoot alot of fire power at you or look like a marine but act like a skulk? I wouldn't even want that situation to arise, I do want the Marines to be different than the Kharaa but not unbalanced.
Setting up traps would be interesting, explosive charges also, though I think the real strength of such armor would be any number of situations where you want to put a marine where the Kharaa least expect it, say, ninja'ing a hive perhaps, or used as bait that can get away, or just to flank the enemy, or just to put on some speed where it is needed. What other situations might call for speed, agility, dodging, climbing, diving, etc.? Its just a way of making the marine more mobile but that mobility comes at a price: less armor, less fire power.
Oh well, its just an idea, just brainstorming here on what kind of fun can be had when you add ninja or ranger or specialist forces like strategies and tactics in.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree that a kick could do any real damage to a Kharaa life-form. (And you keep talking about momentum, how would they generate that momentum? A lot of kicks aren't aerial, or 'spinning', and so the power comes from the muscles in your legs, not the momentum of your body.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, how would they generate momentum? With their parkour, that's how, at least I imagine that is how it would work. Work up some speed, drop from a height, then lay a drop kick into a foe. *shrug* Otherwise it would be just as you suggest, the Kharaa would probably undamaged by just a muscle powered kick - though, kicks have been known to break bones before, especially if you happen to be wearing something like a steel toed boot, so I wonder just how well carapace could stand up to a kick (heel, toe, front, back, side, roundhouse, drop, etc).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's also the basis of my 'stock smash' suggestion for an alternate fire for the LMG; it does little to no damage, and would not be viable as a combat weapon, but provides a 'knock back' (for smaller creatures like skulks) to give you some breathing room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still don't understand the ninja/mobility armour though. :/ Unless it's like, you get a new, lighter, weapon roll-out (one of my ideas for NS2 was to have a new, heavier, weapon roll-out for HA users - since it's a powered exoskeleton, rather than a knight's armour) for the mobility armour. I assume it'd be a much lighter powered exoskeleton - at least the legs would be powered (like dystopia?); and in order to keep the mobility up, armour has to be lighter and more free - but even so, I still don't think bunny-hopping would be compatible but *shrug* I guess you can explain everything with enough BS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />.
<!--quoteo(post=1667920:date=Jan 20 2008, 02:01 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 20 2008, 02:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well then, we're mostly in agreement.
I still don't understand the ninja/mobility armour though. :/ Unless it's like, you get a new, lighter, weapon roll-out (one of my ideas for NS2 was to have a new, heavier, weapon roll-out for HA users - since it's a powered exoskeleton, rather than a knight's armour) for the mobility armour. I assume it'd be a much lighter powered exoskeleton - at least the legs would be powered (like dystopia?); and in order to keep the mobility up, armour has to be lighter and more free - but even so, I still don't think bunny-hopping would be compatible but *shrug* I guess you can explain everything with enough BS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I think you understand the armor thing really well. I would also like to see the Heavy side of things improved as well. I really see the Marine's putting on equipment as their way of adapting, just as the Kharaa shape shift to a new life form to adapt to roles they need in their pack. Is it just me or does anyone else think of Heavy Gear or any number of mech games when they see the Heavy armor for Marines?
I think there is room within the "equip tools for the job" thing that the marines got going on to be adaptable to just about any play style. Personally, I want some armor that will allow me some sort of better medic and engineer like roles within the Marine team.
Do you think its possible marines could do that? Have the commander make research, then the marines buy their favourite individual play styles within what is possible as unlocked by the RTS game play the Commander is doing? I wonder what other kinds of sci fi mods, upgrades, and implants could happen with marine armor, weapons, and the nanites that make it all happen...
Hmm, nah... you've got the commander for the medic/ammo-resupply jobs and the welders for the repair building/armour jobs.
I think the HA should have a more distinct style though, it looks rather boring atm. I think a (possiblity of a) heavier weapon roll-out could contribute to that too.
Comments
They've explained the difference between Parkour and Free Running; the <i>people that upload the videos</i> themselves may <b>not know</b> the difference, so they think that "Parkour" is just a stylish way to say Free Running, which it isn't. Free Running is about athleticism, gymnastics and freedom of expression; Parkour is about getting from point A to B quickly, in the most efficient way possible, overcoming obstacles using the least amount of effort required.
Will you settle for video?
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I'm seeing enviroments that have the similar urban or industrial feel and that one could use 'whatever you want to call it' in - heck, lets call it "Marine Zero G Acrobatics" or something. I don't care much what its called, just so long as it is an improvement over the look and controls that exist currently for NS1 bunny hopping.
Is my interchanging of the words parkour and free running bugging you that much that you can't see how it is just an example for human movement that is agile? Does that movement look silly or cool? Could you see a marine using it to dodge and move through a map? Would it take skill to use? Could it satisfy the needs of those who like bunny hopping?
Oh, just in case you don't think it would mean much in a "fight" here is an interesting movie:
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Id give marines with this ability a low armour class too, cos armours cumbersome and heavy and would stop them from doing air manouvers. This could be the ultimate playing style of a leet. no primary weapon low armour, but he can move fast, behop, jump of walls and he has a knife and a secondary weapon.
Although i think you can fit this idea in to a sci fi context such as ns. Im not sure it would make good game play for everyone. It could be very irritating for skulks being bested at their own play style by leet rines.
Theres also a considerable programing consideration. to make this kind of movement look good would require some work by the devs.
Video 1: Yeah, that's a cool vid. ** (Still, I think part of that video was free running and tricking - you can pretty much spot which moves.)
Video 2: I'm sorry, I just don't see it. Where's the similarity? The only similarity I can see is that one scene with (the jetpack and) the wall-and-rail perpendicular to another wall connected to the lower floor - climbing that? But that kind of movement (scaling a wall) isn't possible in NS1 anyway. What else? marine buildings? Do you wanna be able to vault over marine buildings or something?
Video 3: (Also a cool vid. I've actually seen it before. ) I'm not sure if you noticed this, but he's <b>running away</b> for god's sake.
**
Okay, I wouldn't mind seeing, in NS2, (not too flashy- similar to what was shown in the first video, maybe less flashy in certain respects) Parkour-like movements to scale walls like what was just discussed, you've convinced me there.
However, there's still a great lack of "Parkour-compatible" environments in NS. And NS2 is meant to have the same 'feel' as NS1, so I figure that won't change.
Also, there's still the issue of how viable that is for a marine holding a weapon and burdened with equipment - you notice, from those videos, there is <b>a lot</b> of emphasis placed on using your arms, whether it's just to assist your movements/balance, or full-fledged grabbing
[ I'm reminded of Dystopia, actually, where you can 'grab' onto ledges and small walls and such - if they'd made that look as good as it does in those videos, that would be awesome ]
But the important question here is: is bunny-hopping <b>anything</b> like Parkour, hell- even Free Running? <b>Not in the least.</b> For me, your videos have only helped reinforce that belief.
Hehe, I found a video...
How about this? I know its in first person, I know there is copious use of the jet pack, but especially watch near the end, around the 4:17 mark, where a LMG marine is doing what looks like a spawn camp or something, poor gorge:
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Use of the circle strafe / side step jump (another way to say bunny hop) as a marine in NS1 has assured many a successful dodge by a marine. In addition we vault or balance on railings often, jump down a good distance, use a weapon while climbing a ladder...
That weapon on the ladder bugs me when its a two handed weapon being used. Oh well, add it to the list of things in NS1 I would like to be improved, ladder climbing animations and how it would affect a Marine's use of their equipment.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->invader Zim Posted Yesterday, 09:17 AM
i quite like it but i dont think a rine could do it with a gun, especially not in hand, and the bigger weapons wud probs make the rine to unbalanced to do free running movements. So i guess maybe there should be a mobility suit upgrade,or implant enhancement or something, that could be researched. players that equip or get this upgrade could do free running movements but couldnt carry a primary weapon. So they could ninja but have low fire power. Maybe an smg model could be created especially for this upgrade.
Id give marines with this ability a low armour class too, cos armours cumbersome and heavy and would stop them from doing air manouvers. This could be the ultimate playing style of a leet. no primary weapon low armour, but he can move fast, behop, jump of walls and he has a knife and a secondary weapon.
Although i think you can fit this idea in to a sci fi context such as ns. Im not sure it would make good game play for everyone. It could be very irritating for skulks being bested at their own play style by leet rines.
Theres also a considerable programing consideration. to make this kind of movement look good would require some work by the devs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is such a good post. I agree, take away those two handed weapons, but I would take it even further, I don't want a Marine wearing the acrobatic armor to be like a skulk at all, take away the knife and let them have a really weak kick or have the kick be skill based somehow like you need to have momentum and gravity on your side for it do any damage at all.
(was that video very blocky for everyone else too, or is it just my pc?)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Use of the circle strafe / side step jump (another way to say bunny hop) as a marine in NS1 has assured many a successful dodge by a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many times must I say this... that isn't Parkour.
Why that's important to us? Parkour is a viable discipline for emergency and military forces - the basis of your argument and I'll agree there. However, <b>bunny-hopping isn't Parkour.</b>
Bunny-hopping, to me, is that repetitive bouncing that just looks so strange and incongruent - fair enough, you dodge a skulk leap by diving to the side - but then you BOUNCE back up, like there's an invisible trampoline, or an invisible pogo stick between your legs. There's no rest period for the leg muscles/bones/joints, no instance of leg muscles re-tensing, it's not physically possible - you try it.
Jumping is fine. Anyone can jump. Bouncing, is something we can't do. Rather than acrobatic movements every time you jump - which would be even "more impossible" to pull off than up and down bouncing on your legs - there has to be some kind of limit placed on jumping (I'm not talking about a stamina system) "hop, step, jump" not "hop, bounce, hop".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In addition we vault or balance on railings often, jump down a good distance, use a weapon while climbing a ladder...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While this has nothing at all to do with bunny-hopping, I'll give it my best shot. Though I'm not sure what the weapon while climbing a ladder has to do with Parkour... can you even shoot accurately while on the ladder? in CS:S you can't. You could do it the battlefield way (or any other game, there are many) where you sling your weapon on your back or something, and climb the ladder with your hands. I think that, ascending, you should be able to climb quite fast - like the guy in that Parkour movie you pasted a clip of; and descending, you might just 'slide' down. I guess if you were on the ladder, but not climbing or descending, you could be able to hang on with one hand, and carry a weapon like a pistol, or the lmg single-handed, with a loss in accuracy.
But yes, we do vault/balance on railings often, and jump down good distances - but I don't know if it's enough to warrant new animations and perhaps a new way of movement entirely. The thing with drops in Parkour is to carry your momentum forward, usually achieved with rolls - will that work without interrupting gameplay, how will that work in the first person view?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, take away those two handed weapons, but I would take it even further, I don't want a Marine wearing the acrobatic armor to be like a skulk at all, take away the knife and let them have a really weak kick or have the kick be skill based somehow like you need to have momentum and gravity on your side for it do any damage at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You would <b>disarm</b> a soldier completely, and then send him out on the battlefield?
I don't see frontiersmen marines being acrobats. I'm honestly surprised you can.
I don't see kicks matching marines, (actually I don't see kicks going in any decent FPS) never mind the consideration of "how much damage could you do with a kick, to something that can take eight bullets in the face and still bite your leg off?"
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><div align="center">ATMOSPHERE!</div><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
(was that video very blocky for everyone else too, or is it just my pc?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry about that, its really tough to find good examples for what I am trying to get at then I guess. It looked jagged for me too, I just thought you would be able to make out all the dodging and what not.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many times must I say this... that isn't Parkour.
Why that's important to us? Parkour is a viable discipline for emergency and military forces - the basis of your argument and I'll agree there. However, <b>bunny-hopping isn't Parkour.</b>
Bunny-hopping, to me, is that repetitive bouncing that just looks so strange and incongruent - fair enough, you dodge a skulk leap by diving to the side - but then you BOUNCE back up, like there's an invisible trampoline, or an invisible pogo stick between your legs. There's no rest period for the leg muscles/bones/joints, no instance of leg muscles re-tensing, it's not physically possible - you try it.
Jumping is fine. Anyone can jump. Bouncing, is something we can't do. Rather than acrobatic movements every time you jump - which would be even "more impossible" to pull off than up and down bouncing on your legs - there has to be some kind of limit placed on jumping (I'm not talking about a stamina system) "hop, step, jump" not "hop, bounce, hop".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, I'm not trying to frustrate you by having you repeat yourself. I *know* it isn't parkour, that is part of my point. I completely agree with you, everything you have put forward are reasons why I would like to see something that not only looks better but also fits more accurately what the human body is capable of - and that before you try to consider the implications of what the nanites in the human body may be doing to augment this agility and mobility.
I took a look at all the arguments that say bunny hopping helps make NS1 awesome and tried to see if there was any way we could get rid of it but keep the things that are said to be good about it: Skills, Tactics, Dodging, Speed, etc. The answer I find that IMHO would help that along would be better controls and better animations, and the best source material for what the human body that I could find can accomplish that seems to correlate with those pros is Parkour AND Free Running. If you are aware of a better way we could improve NS2 that keeps what we like and gets rid of what we don't like, I would gladly like to hear it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While this has nothing at all to do with bunny-hopping, I'll give it my best shot. Though I'm not sure what the weapon while climbing a ladder has to do with Parkour... can you even shoot accurately while on the ladder? in CS:S you can't. You could do it the battlefield way (or any other game, there are many) where you sling your weapon on your back or something, and climb the ladder with your hands. I think that, ascending, you should be able to climb quite fast - like the guy in that Parkour movie you pasted a clip of; and descending, you might just 'slide' down. I guess if you were on the ladder, but not climbing or descending, you could be able to hang on with one hand, and carry a weapon like a pistol, or the lmg single-handed, with a loss in accuracy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't referring to CS but rather my experiences in NS1 with regards to being able to shoot from a ladder with a two handed weapon and the animation Marines have for climbing (as in lack of any) makes it function and look just as silly as bunny hopping, IMHO. I agree, pistol, single hand LMG with more spray and pray like accuracy, and the way to ascend and descend quicker without offensive capability would all be really good ways for NS2 to improve.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But yes, we do vault/balance on railings often, and jump down good distances - but I don't know if it's enough to warrant new animations and perhaps a new way of movement entirely. The thing with drops in Parkour is to carry your momentum forward, usually achieved with rolls - will that work without interrupting gameplay, how will that work in the first person view?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would it look in first person? I imagine no different than it does now - something like jump, the view goes to crouch height, you move a bit in the direction you are holding the movement keys or the direction you are facing towards, then go to a stand height again. I would not like it if the screen suddenly did a roll or whatever for any of the mobility, kind of the same way I feel about skulk wall walking view rotating - if it is jarring and nauseating, forget it. The animations that others see would be the key importance for continued suspension of disbelief.
Also, no need to change it for any kind of other armor really, jet pack, heavy, etc. Those have different kinds of mobility as is, where for greater armor you move slower or where your break fall is the opposing thrust. I think the way a vanilla (default) marine's armor is sectional enough it would allow enough for some animations. But for the idea to really shine I think the marines need a new set of armor, "nanite ninja" armor.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You would <b>disarm</b> a soldier completely, and then send him out on the battlefield?
I don't see frontiersmen marines being acrobats. I'm honestly surprised you can.
I don't see kicks matching marines, (actually I don't see kicks going in any decent FPS) never mind the consideration of "how much damage could you do with a kick, to something that can take eight bullets in the face and still bite your leg off?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I would see it as a trade off, increased mobility and agility (and maybe even stealth) for decreased offensive, armor, and carrying capability. Plus, taking away melee would mean that stays as something the Kharaa does, being mobile, agile, and melee. Instead, if they did get into a fight, the emphasis would be placed on flight (as in the "Fight OR Flight" saying) for the marine, to get away and get back before their smaller armor gets them killed.
The kicking was just some brain storming on a possible replacement, something I recall playing with in Duke Nukem 3D but tossing in the idea of physics from HL2, where a "ninja" armored marine would use their momentum to turn themselves into a thrown object of sorts.
With regards to the "bullets in face, take your leg off", skulks often rip into marines and the marine can still walk, so I would think that is an unsubstantiated claim. I don't think you were proposing hobbling, hamstringing, disemboweling, maiming or decapitating marines, so I am guessing it was an intentional exaggeration of the offensive capabilities of the skulk. But you do seem to be under the impression that kicks are not a appropriate response to something with razor sharp teeth, like it would be an invitation to be a haunch on a Kharaa thanksgiving day celebration table - from my own experience with hostile dogs and taking into consideration that a marine's boot must offer some space nano tech protection to the foot, not to mention any shin, knee, thigh or cup protection that may be there: A well placed and speedy kick to the snout, neck/throat, eyes, mid section, or legs can produce results that will stop the attacking animal in its tracks, especially if they are in the middle of a lunge. But assuming that a Kharaa life form is not a wolf, dog, cougar, etc but something far more dangerous because of its own carapace, I would guess that sufficient momentum would be needed for the kick to transfer enough kinetic energy through the carapace to damage vital organs. While a bullet may have more velocity and exert more armor piercing capability, the human body's weight with sufficient momentum should be able to inflict some damage.
Then what the hell have we been arguing about?
Actually no, that isn't what you said earlier. You said, you don't mind if they keep bunny-hopping, if they made the animations acrobatic (apparently, like Parkour and Free Running). <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
That makes less sense than bunny-hopping alone does. Not only are you expected to be able to 'bounce'; somehow you're expected to be able to do flips and dives, while keeping up that <b>bouncing</b>. <b>Bouncing</b> isn't jumping. To me, <b>bunny-hopping is bouncing</b> - which is impossible for the human body to do. Augmentation is not enough, you'd have to replace the legs entirely.
Unless you want to retract that statement?
<!--quoteo(post=1667826:date=Jan 19 2008, 05:22 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jan 19 2008, 05:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How would it look in first person? I imagine no different than it does now - something like jump, the view goes to crouch height, you move a bit in the direction you are holding the movement keys or the direction you are facing towards, then go to a stand height again. I would not like it if the screen suddenly did a roll or whatever for any of the mobility, kind of the same way I feel about skulk wall walking view rotating - if it is jarring and nauseating, forget it. The animations that others see would be the key importance for continued suspension of disbelief.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, okay, won't it still interrupt the gameplay/action though? When you drop from a height in NS, there is no change in your first person view - since there's no special movement for it.
I think that, you should be able to jump higher by crouching first - crouch-jump; but in addition to this, you'd be able to drop from a good height by crouching on 'impact' - really it's what most people do on instinct, but still: It would be a bit of a skill-based movement, and would give the average marine the potential for more mobility.
edit: ..so I just thought of this, but, the default animation for the 'crouch-landing' while moving forward (which would provide even greater 'shock-absorbency' than regular crouch-landing) could be that 'rolling movement' seen in parkour. It would work, because the View would change, because you told it to; it wouldn't be automatic (and disorienting?) like what you just suggested. The view would change (to crouch), your third person animation would change, and the shock-absorbency would change; because <b>you</b> timed the crouch and the roll.
<!--quoteo(post=1667826:date=Jan 19 2008, 05:22 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jan 19 2008, 05:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead, if they did get into a fight, the emphasis would be placed on flight (as in the "Fight OR Flight" saying) for the marine, to get away and get back before their smaller armor gets them killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So... what's the point of this 'ninja nanite armour' - you can't fight with it. Welding? Setting up traps? Mines, explosive charges?
I disagree that a kick could do any real damage to a Kharaa life-form. (And you keep talking about momentum, how would they generate that momentum? A lot of kicks aren't aerial, or 'spinning', and so the power comes from the muscles in your legs, not the momentum of your body.)
It's also the basis of my 'stock smash' suggestion for an alternate fire for the LMG; it does little to no damage, and would not be viable as a combat weapon, but provides a 'knock back' (for smaller creatures like skulks) to give you some breathing room.
Then what the hell have we been arguing about?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, if I thought we were arguing I would have just stopped quite a while ago, I thought we were hashing out what could help make NS2 better.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually no, that isn't what you said earlier. You said, you don't mind if they keep bunny-hopping, if they made the animations acrobatic (apparently, like Parkour and Free Running). <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know what I said, I just thought that way it would no longer resemble anything like what we currently experience with bunny hopping.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That makes less sense than bunny-hopping alone does. Not only are you expected to be able to 'bounce'; somehow you're expected to be able to do flips and dives, while keeping up that <b>bouncing</b>. <b>Bouncing</b> isn't jumping. To me, <b>bunny-hopping is bouncing</b> - which is impossible for the human body to do. Augmentation is not enough, you'd have to replace the legs entirely.
Unless you want to retract that statement?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh! There we go, you think of bunny hop as a bounce, which is what it looks like now in NS1, yes? I was thinking of bunny hop as a bizarre twist on the jump, since that is what you have to press to make it happen. I can see that now, yes, I hate the bounce thing. So hopefully you can see that I am now proposing to get rid of bunny hop, replace it with the more human movement because there are still those who enjoy aspects of the previous bunny hop. I'm trying to explore if a ++ situation is possible, rather than a straight up - situation, which is what I have wanted for years: - situation meaning just get rid of the damn bunny hop all together. So, I'm trying to find a compromise, and this is what I came up with: movement looking and playing as much fun as parkour and free running.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, okay, won't it still interrupt the gameplay/action though? When you drop from a height in NS, there is no change in your first person view - since there's no special movement for it.
I think that, you should be able to jump higher by crouching first - crouch-jump; but in addition to this, you'd be able to drop from a good height by crouching on 'impact' - really it's what most people do on instinct, but still: It would be a bit of a skill-based movement, and would give the average marine the potential for more mobility.
edit: ..so I just thought of this, but, the default animation for the 'crouch-landing' while moving forward (which would provide even greater 'shock-absorbency' than regular crouch-landing) could be that 'rolling movement' seen in parkour. It would work, because the View would change, because you told it to; it wouldn't be automatic (and disorienting?) like what you just suggested. The view would change (to crouch), your third person animation would change, and the shock-absorbency would change; because <b>you</b> timed the crouch and the roll.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that would be playable also. My previous thoughts were that it could be a automatic system, but this manual system seems cool too <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I could have fun with that!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So... what's the point of this 'ninja nanite armour' - you can't fight with it. Welding? Setting up traps? Mines, explosive charges?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, the point is to give something to those who like to bunny hop but make it not be uber armor that somehow makes someone invincible. Do you know how hard it would be to kill a guy as a Kharaa if they could get away from your melee most of the time and shoot alot of fire power at you or look like a marine but act like a skulk? I wouldn't even want that situation to arise, I do want the Marines to be different than the Kharaa but not unbalanced.
Setting up traps would be interesting, explosive charges also, though I think the real strength of such armor would be any number of situations where you want to put a marine where the Kharaa least expect it, say, ninja'ing a hive perhaps, or used as bait that can get away, or just to flank the enemy, or just to put on some speed where it is needed. What other situations might call for speed, agility, dodging, climbing, diving, etc.? Its just a way of making the marine more mobile but that mobility comes at a price: less armor, less fire power.
Oh well, its just an idea, just brainstorming here on what kind of fun can be had when you add ninja or ranger or specialist forces like strategies and tactics in.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree that a kick could do any real damage to a Kharaa life-form. (And you keep talking about momentum, how would they generate that momentum? A lot of kicks aren't aerial, or 'spinning', and so the power comes from the muscles in your legs, not the momentum of your body.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, how would they generate momentum? With their parkour, that's how, at least I imagine that is how it would work. Work up some speed, drop from a height, then lay a drop kick into a foe. *shrug* Otherwise it would be just as you suggest, the Kharaa would probably undamaged by just a muscle powered kick - though, kicks have been known to break bones before, especially if you happen to be wearing something like a steel toed boot, so I wonder just how well carapace could stand up to a kick (heel, toe, front, back, side, roundhouse, drop, etc).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's also the basis of my 'stock smash' suggestion for an alternate fire for the LMG; it does little to no damage, and would not be viable as a combat weapon, but provides a 'knock back' (for smaller creatures like skulks) to give you some breathing room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that stock smash as well.
I still don't understand the ninja/mobility armour though. :/
Unless it's like, you get a new, lighter, weapon roll-out (one of my ideas for NS2 was to have a new, heavier, weapon roll-out for HA users - since it's a powered exoskeleton, rather than a knight's armour) for the mobility armour. I assume it'd be a much lighter powered exoskeleton - at least the legs would be powered (like dystopia?); and in order to keep the mobility up, armour has to be lighter and more free - but even so, I still don't think bunny-hopping would be compatible but *shrug* I guess you can explain everything with enough BS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />.
I still don't understand the ninja/mobility armour though. :/
Unless it's like, you get a new, lighter, weapon roll-out (one of my ideas for NS2 was to have a new, heavier, weapon roll-out for HA users - since it's a powered exoskeleton, rather than a knight's armour) for the mobility armour. I assume it'd be a much lighter powered exoskeleton - at least the legs would be powered (like dystopia?); and in order to keep the mobility up, armour has to be lighter and more free - but even so, I still don't think bunny-hopping would be compatible but *shrug* I guess you can explain everything with enough BS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I think you understand the armor thing really well. I would also like to see the Heavy side of things improved as well. I really see the Marine's putting on equipment as their way of adapting, just as the Kharaa shape shift to a new life form to adapt to roles they need in their pack. Is it just me or does anyone else think of Heavy Gear or any number of mech games when they see the Heavy armor for Marines?
I think there is room within the "equip tools for the job" thing that the marines got going on to be adaptable to just about any play style. Personally, I want some armor that will allow me some sort of better medic and engineer like roles within the Marine team.
Do you think its possible marines could do that? Have the commander make research, then the marines buy their favourite individual play styles within what is possible as unlocked by the RTS game play the Commander is doing? I wonder what other kinds of sci fi mods, upgrades, and implants could happen with marine armor, weapons, and the nanites that make it all happen...
I think the HA should have a more distinct style though, it looks rather boring atm. I think a (possiblity of a) heavier weapon roll-out could contribute to that too.