<!--quoteo(post=1672892:date=Mar 10 2008, 09:45 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Mar 10 2008, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Empires. The Commander mode for obvious reasons, and the infantry combat is a lot deeper than merely spamming people up (the way you customise your class/vehicle, for a start, plus which turrets you drop as an Engy, which side of a vehicle you aim at, etc.).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which side of a vehicle you aim at? That's deep? The way you customize your class is deep? Next you'll be telling me that the gun you choose for Counterstrike and the direction you attack the enemy from means the combat is deep. Empires, for everyone except the commander, devolves into deathmatch just as much as any of mod. Sure, instead of worrying about a headshot you're worrying about a rear shot, but attacking from behind works just as well in Day of Defeat: Source as it does in Empires. There's just no quantifiable bonus.
<!--quoteo(post=1672920:date=Mar 11 2008, 02:13 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Mar 11 2008, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which side of a vehicle you aim at? That's deep? The way you customize your class is deep? Next you'll be telling me that the gun you choose for Counterstrike and the direction you attack the enemy from means the combat is deep. Empires, for everyone except the commander, devolves into deathmatch just as much as any of mod. Sure, instead of worrying about a headshot you're worrying about a rear shot, but attacking from behind works just as well in Day of Defeat: Source as it does in Empires. There's just no quantifiable bonus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Deathmatch: - No classes. Every player is the same in ability. Players do not assume inter-dependant roles. Success is mostly based on individual perecption, reaction speed, judgement and accuracy, with teamwork rarely entering into this. - 1 objective: kill the other player(s) - Everyone has access to same weaponry - Player with the biggest gun generally wins out - Random spawning from fixed, static (not dynamic) spawn points
Empires: - 4 completely different classes with customisable weapon sets PLUS a Commander (effectively an additional game mode) - Personal class upgrades (class-specific and generalised) that permit further role specialisation (e.g. a level 1 Engineer could be a repair specialist in the absence of a Repair Bay, or he could choose the ability to revive dead teammates on the battlefield) - Commander gameplay: see NS. - 6 independant main branches of the technology tree promoting varied strategies from Commander to Commander. - 2 teams with asymmetrical class weaponry and vehicles - Range of options available for vehicle armour type, weaponry and engine type increased through Commander research. - Vehicles cost more the greater amount of weapons/armour you stack on them. Eco strategies are utterly viable. - NESW vehicle armour customisation. Attacking an enemy to the North East? Maximise your weight economy by prioritising armour to the front and right sides permitting of either super armour, more weaponry, reduced cost or a better (heavier) engine that will keep your weapons firing for longer. - Squad system to allow FPS players to assume leadership roles. Class-specific squad bonuses available to Squad Leaders. SLs can give their own orders and waypoints, independant of the Commander.
Yeah, I'd say Empires is more than 'glorified deathmatch', and if you don't agree with that based on this evidence, I don't really see how I can have a discussion with you.
Tycho, when did you last play Empires? I'd guess it was around the time of the first release when it was one of the few HL2 mods available so everyone was playing it. Since then, the 'have-a-go-Joes' have unsurprisingly lost interest and the playerbase is one that generally gets the gameplay (not to mention the mod has been vastly improved to make it easier to get, although this is far from perfect).
I'll admit that on the Infantry-only maps, the gameplay does decend into glorified deathmatch, but on the rest of the maps it's a totally different story.
I don't see how adding armor to one side of a vehicle over another or choosing one weapon loadout over another somehow makes the game less about killing the other player. I agree that the commander mode has nothing to do with deathmatch and all his reasearch stuff is entirely different, but differing class loadouts aren't just for looks; you do it to give yourself more options on the battlefield, and the battlefield itself isn't just for looks; the idea is to kill the enemy. Yes, it's more complex than DIPRIP, but a mod "devolves" into glorified combat whenever people start shooting at each other in order to kill each other.
<!--quoteo(post=1672950:date=Mar 11 2008, 09:07 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Mar 11 2008, 09:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1672950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see how adding armor to one side of a vehicle over another or choosing one weapon loadout over another somehow makes the game less about <b>killing the other player</b>. I agree that the commander mode has nothing to do with deathmatch and all his reasearch stuff is entirely different, but differing class loadouts aren't just for looks; you do it to give yourself more options on the battlefield, and the battlefield itself isn't just for looks; the idea is to kill the enemy. Yes, it's more complex than DIPRIP, but a mod "devolves" into <b>glorified combat</b> whenever people start shooting at each other in order to kill each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Let's not get confused here, Tycho. The point made was about 'glorified deathmatch', not 'glorified combat' or simple the act of killing. The 'deathmatch' bit is the crucial aspect, in other words the way you go about killing people. It is simplified, it has little strategy.
Of course armour customisation or weapon loadout doesn't make it less about killing, but it does mean that the combat has more planning, more <i>depth</i> which is the exact element I claimed DIPRIP was missing in order for me to want to play it (back on topic yet? - hopefully).
It doesn't seem like DIPRIP has substantially less planning than Empires; you just have to do it in the course of a fight instead of beforehand (except with the car you choose). Whether you try to ram an enemy head on, wait until he turns around and hit him with bullets, bombard him from afar with mortars, peck at him with missiles, run away and find a repair powerup, head him off and shoot him up, lure him into a building and tear him apart, etc. are all choices that you have to make beyond "GRR KILL THE MEAN MAN." Likewise, you have to decide what powerups you want to hunt for, and whether it's worth the detour to go pick something up. In Empires, you've got to decide what direction to attack from, what weapons to bring, and stuff like that. You have the same sort of considerations in DIPRIP, even if they're in some cases simplified and in most cases more frantic.
I don't think any of those videos are of the latest version, but a video doesn't really capture the thought process of choosing which engagements you're going to fight in and deciding on your plan of attack or escape. Also in the one I watched, the dude sucked, and he kept stopping his car for some reason.
Comments
Which side of a vehicle you aim at? That's deep? The way you customize your class is deep? Next you'll be telling me that the gun you choose for Counterstrike and the direction you attack the enemy from means the combat is deep. Empires, for everyone except the commander, devolves into deathmatch just as much as any of mod. Sure, instead of worrying about a headshot you're worrying about a rear shot, but attacking from behind works just as well in Day of Defeat: Source as it does in Empires. There's just no quantifiable bonus.
Deathmatch:
- No classes. Every player is the same in ability. Players do not assume inter-dependant roles. Success is mostly based on individual perecption, reaction speed, judgement and accuracy, with teamwork rarely entering into this.
- 1 objective: kill the other player(s)
- Everyone has access to same weaponry
- Player with the biggest gun generally wins out
- Random spawning from fixed, static (not dynamic) spawn points
Empires:
- 4 completely different classes with customisable weapon sets PLUS a Commander (effectively an additional game mode)
- Personal class upgrades (class-specific and generalised) that permit further role specialisation (e.g. a level 1 Engineer could be a repair specialist in the absence of a Repair Bay, or he could choose the ability to revive dead teammates on the battlefield)
- Commander gameplay: see NS.
- 6 independant main branches of the technology tree promoting varied strategies from Commander to Commander.
- 2 teams with asymmetrical class weaponry and vehicles
- Range of options available for vehicle armour type, weaponry and engine type increased through Commander research.
- Vehicles cost more the greater amount of weapons/armour you stack on them. Eco strategies are utterly viable.
- NESW vehicle armour customisation. Attacking an enemy to the North East? Maximise your weight economy by prioritising armour to the front and right sides permitting of either super armour, more weaponry, reduced cost or a better (heavier) engine that will keep your weapons firing for longer.
- Squad system to allow FPS players to assume leadership roles. Class-specific squad bonuses available to Squad Leaders. SLs can give their own orders and waypoints, independant of the Commander.
Yeah, I'd say Empires is more than 'glorified deathmatch', and if you don't agree with that based on this evidence, I don't really see how I can have a discussion with you.
Tycho, when did you last play Empires? I'd guess it was around the time of the first release when it was one of the few HL2 mods available so everyone was playing it. Since then, the 'have-a-go-Joes' have unsurprisingly lost interest and the playerbase is one that generally gets the gameplay (not to mention the mod has been vastly improved to make it easier to get, although this is far from perfect).
I'll admit that on the Infantry-only maps, the gameplay does decend into glorified deathmatch, but on the rest of the maps it's a totally different story.
Of course armour customisation or weapon loadout doesn't make it less about killing, but it does mean that the combat has more planning, more <i>depth</i> which is the exact element I claimed DIPRIP was missing in order for me to want to play it (back on topic yet? - hopefully).
TWERPCLUTCH
(I think that puts this discussion to rest)