Achievements in NS2

the_x5 · March 2008

<div class="IPBDescription">(please, read the whole first post for comprehension)</div><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>The problem:</b></span>
I observed this in the thread about <a href="http://<a%20href=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....howtopic=103981</a>" target="_blank">how to balance skill on a server</a>. Given the following quote, my own observations of issues with newbies and experienced players, and many other factors I think it is clear this is a problem with need to be addressed.

First let me give my response to this quote, then I will move on to just one part of the solution which I feel could be implemented in NS2.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Mar 25 2008, 12:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674188"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I think there's a disconnect in communication here - when you talk about skill, you seem to be focusing primarily upon purely mechanical point-and-click skill, separated from game knowledge, situational awareness, etc. When I refer to "skill", I mean an all-encompassing measurement of the overall quality of a player (and I suspect Radix and tjo do as well).</div>
...and x5 too. (I agree with your definition pertaining to skill being un-quantifiable) But on the other hand, as another already said here achievements could be used as part of a "tutorial" to help new people learn or notice things some of the things you can do.

<u>READ THIS</u>:
I <i>strongly</i> feel however that kills, damage dealt, deaths, and time played are stupid benchmarks or achievements to use. Why? Because they have no relation to how challenging the games played were, how well the user used teamwork, how well the user followed the team's strategy or commanded that strategy to specific tactics, or even how much the user is learning the game.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>Part-of-the-Solution Idea Summary:</b></span>
It could be argued that this problem canâ€™t be solved completely, but there are ways to address it.
<b>This idea is to propose using achievements to help at least point new players in the right directions of learning the game and promoting teamwork. It is also being suggested that this idea be used as a means to use that % of completed achievements as a variable to allow users entry to â€œlevel appropriateâ€ servers with applicable reason and fairness (i.e.: a server variable / cvar, at the discretion of the server admin(s)).</b>
Here's a far better list of possible achievements:<ul><li><span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#00BB00">Time Welded</span></b>
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> total seconds welding a target to goal
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> welding teammates' armor on marines</li><li><span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#00BB00">Damage Healed</span></b> (healspray)
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> total number hit points restored to goal
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> healing teammates as a gorge on aliens</li><li> <span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#00BB00">Kill Assists</span></b>
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> total number kill assists (non-automated defenses, allied teammate user ONLY) to goal
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> covering fire for your teammates, raising the user's situational awareness in combat</li><li><span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#00BB00">Hives Built</span></b>
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> total number of hives dropped and grown to completion to goal
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> spending resources on making vital structures for the aliens as opposed to...
(you all know the drill: hoard res, waste it on dying as a higher life form vs. tech-ed up marines, wait to get sieged FTL)</li><li><span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#00BB00">RTs Built</span></b>
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> total seconds of RT building time (whether assisted or not in building of structure)
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> Secondary objective of building resources (unfortunately there is no way to measure defending that RT that I can think of)</li><li><span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#00BB00">Skulk-Missile</span></b>
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> number of multi-kills to goal with one hit of the weapon "divine wind" (xenocide) to goal IN CLASSIC MODE <i>ONLY</i> (assuming Combat exists)
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> Getting three hives up, Getting the resources and map control for three hives, breaking down marine turtles, and benefits for players who were gorges for most of the game and now have low resources</li></ul>If you noticed, all of those encourage cooperative team play instead of stat-whoring which is the only real thing a kills, damage, deaths, or time-played achievement could result in (talking resultant behavior of). Also notice how we should be paying attention to the resulting behavior to each achievement.
(Radix are you listening? Please? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> )

Of course even better skills like returning to a hive under siege, bile bombing a critical marine position, a lerk using gas to suppress light armor marines, phasing through the phase gate to rush the alien hive as marine, light armor marines sacrificing themselves to keep things welded and the heavy armor marines safe, following the commanders orders (or ejecting an insane commander intentionally trying to sabotage the game), giving your buddy cover fire, staying with your buddy, etc. are sadly NOT capable of being measured quantitatively.

Thus, I can ONLY see this as be used as introductory aides specifically to help new players and anything else is just unhelpful. (i.e.: an example of a f-ing BAD achievement in ol' NS terms would be how many knife kills which results in the behavior of idiots trying to see if they can get that one extra knife kill in instead of doing something critical) In the context of helping new players learn, I feel it has a hundredfold the potential that Combat ever did in promoting learning.

IT MUST BE IMPLEMENTED WISELY!

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>Reasoning/Why:</b></span>
Simple, the goal is to encourage behaviors that were described above while helping point new users in the right direction. The second part is that this allow for a percentage of completed achievements to be used as a server variable.

Hence, my reactions to these quotes:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Mar 25 2008, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm sure they're focusing on that because I said that K:D should be the acid test of a good player, which I think it should.</div>
No sir, I disagree. There are better ways, just use my example above. Use % of achievements completed as your server-client variable to use in the conditional.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Mar 25 2008, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Underwhelmed, my thesis was (and is) that the objective with matchmaking is to eliminate the frustration of stacking prohibitively good and prohibitively bad players against one another, so it's not that I'm really trying to quantify all of the player's "skills" such as situational awareness and general knowledge with K:D ratio, but rather it's a proposed attempt to negate the first-person rage factor of getting killed over and over.</div>
I agree with you; this is a concern to be addressed in NS2.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Mar 25 2008, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>New players aren't smart enough to realize that they don't understand the game (unless it has no real tactics to speak of, in which case it's a moot point), so that element of play shouldn't bother them very much - but they are smart enough to realize "OH F*** I JUST DIED THIS GAME IS BAD."</div>
Hey now! That's stereotyping newbies. I think the better way to say what you meant is:

<i>"I [Radix] think that new players will all have different level of tolerance for trying to learn a challenge, but I [Radix] feel that NS2 may be too hard for the average tolerance for newbies to learn like NS was"</i>

Ah that's better, aye? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Mar 25 2008, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not trying to actually balance every element of the game with matchmaking, just to filter players into games where they'll enjoy themselves until they can get over the hurdle of learning the game enough to progress to higher levels of play.

My overarching objective with the proposal is fun. Others are free to suggest systems that are optimized to any number of different ends, but I still hold that matchmaking with twitch skill as the acid test is the best overall option.</div>
We share the same goal but I reject your "acid-test" of K&D as being absurd and in practice extremely damaging to the community in the long run as FPS stat-junkies take over.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mushookees @ Mar 26 2008, 07:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>[...] Everyone was learning, nobody was elitist. If you screwed up as commander nobody noticed or cared as much .... it was the best time to learn the game.

After a few months the skill gaps grew apart, soon noobs would get flamed for making the smallest of mistakes, it just got silly, and ultimately drove all the newer players away from NS as well as their friends. All that was left was the bitter old timers and our little community here in NZ crumbled as more and more ppl left.

If you want a larger community ( = more servers <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> ) you need a "friendly" sandbox for the noobs to learn.

I Like crispy's idea a lot, it kinda encourages new players to at least try out all the classes, be a commander, learn the basics of the game, before entering the "not so friendly" snakepit.

Who knows, noobs might actually enjoy the game then, which will make them want to learn more.</div>
Right now the trainer servers are the only means of semi-education for new players to learn to play the game. Ego of not being able to jump right in, shunning at learning to play vs. bots, the drastic difference between playing with a bot and a thinking (usually) team of user players, or even just being ignorant of the difficultly going in are some factors that could be hindering newbies with low tolerance for learning to adapt to a challenge in trying the game once, then leaving.

It also tends to be that some of your larger servers are either full NS servers or nearly-full combat servers. Studies show time and time again (sources from XBox Live and EA's Battlefield2 & 2142) show that new players <i>especially</i> will gravitate towards trying larger servers first. Maybe this is because they want to "hide among the herd" where they feel they won't do as much damage to the team if they suck; who knows? What is happening from what I observe in NS for the past 2 years is that people jump into a Combat server that is large and populated and get owned. The hard core FPS Deathmatch junkies do alright on marines and learn to like it, try classic and get frustrated with the concepts of teamwork, patience, strategy, resources needed for upgrades, building structures, and many more of a myriad of things that are CRITICAL to playing the game. If you add the elitism factor and rudeness towards newbies it is no wonder why many new players give up.

Achievements could help, so could to improve the attitude and etiquette of the community towards new players. But as we all should be competent enough to realize is that the community develops AROUND the game. In other words, if our game is just about the individual's scores and one-upmanship then don't be surprised if your percentage of rude jerks goes up. If the game not only encourages teamwork and selflessness, but REQUIRES it; then I'd bet money you'd see people in the community who are passionate about having fun as a team (and are more apt to give back to the community too, i.e. the so called "prosumers")

Make sense? Are you still reading for comprehension and not skimming this? Then letâ€™s wrap this up.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>Pro's:</b></span><ul><li>Achievements such as the examples listed could be used to help â€œpointâ€ new players to NS2 in the right direction</li><li>Achievements such as the examples listed could be used to help reinforce positive, selfless teamplay-oriented behaviors (which by the way, isnâ€™t that part of â€œbringing the world together through playâ€? Hmm?)</li><li>Could be used as a % of completed achievements as a required-to-access-server variable that would empower server administrators to make â€œuser levelâ€ appropriate public games more balanced</li></ul><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>Con's:</b></span><ul><li>Presents a degree of risk in that it is a departure to what we (current community) are used to an will have few people whine about it until they get used to it</li><li>Could be poorly implemented in what the achievements are -- with benchmarks like a certain number of kills, certain lack of deaths per game, certain quantity of resources spent on life-forms or structures, a certain amount of time played, a certain number of damage dealt, and many others that would only encourage solo-ing and draw people who are only interested in their virtual stats</li><li>Could be poorly implemented in how the % of completed achievements is used for server-entry â€“ in that it could be abused to segregate the community or trade one kind of elitism for another</li></ul>^^^ Read all of the above and <i>then</i> discuss ^^^

Thanks,

<b><span style="color:#FF0000">x5</span></b>

StixNStonz · March 2008

Achievements are a fantastic way to encourage players to do things they wouldn't usually do. Instead of trying out different options or routes or whatever 'just for the fun of it', achievements actually give players incentive, even if that incentive is simply abstract 'points' that add up.

Xbox 360 is a perfect example of this. I beat the Original Halo on the Legendary setting over the course of a few weeks, simply because it was such a massive challenge. Not many players have the same kind of drive. I did the same for Halo 3, but this time around, when it was beat, i got more than just my own glory; I received all the extra Achievements. Even Halo 3 multiplayer offers achievements for random tasks, such as stealing a vehicle within 10 seconds of it being stolen from you. Such an achievement is a small deal, but it gives players reason to attempt specific tasks. After they do it once, they have the experience, and will likely do it again 'just for the fun of it'.

Achievements in NS2 is a great idea and could really tie in with not only the tutorial concept but also the matchmaking concepts.

As a learning tool, the devs could definitely add in achievements for such things as 'welded for 3600 seconds (one hour)', etc. An achievement as such could be worth say 50 points, and could even have those points be given in increments of 5 up to 25, with the final total giving the extra 25. This would let new players have attainable goals in the beginning to 'just get a couple achievement points', while leaving it open for the long-run of gaining all the points.

These points could be given in dozens of different categories, hence offering incentive for players to learn all aspects of the game. There could even be a category for damage dealt, and even for a kill streak (though elitist ones like these should be low in points, or at least one-time deals, as the focus should be on teamwork).

The other way these achievements could benefit the game is in the matchmaking process. There could be a server cvar which sets the minimum achievement points required to join. Obviously, early in the release these would be rare. But after some time, full-achievements-required servers could be seen almost as the Vet servers. If the full number of achievement points is set to something easy like 1000, it could even be used as a simple gauge for matchmaking, since servers could have a running tally of the average Points per player. Matchmaking could locate the server with the closest Points per Player to the user, and try to join.

Of course, there would need to be tinkering with the points given and the amount of work required. I would say that roughly 20 hours of 'work' should be required to progress to the full 1000 points. That is, 20 hours of NS2 gaming while playing with full teamwork. Perhaps that would actually take 20 hours if you were always getting the equipment you needed and such, and would take 40 hours under normal circumstances, and would never be achieved if you are a K:D Stat ######.

Anyways, my 2 cents. I'm all for achievements.

Harimau · March 2008

I read it all, but due to the severe length of it, I've forgotten everything you've said except 'put achievements in NS2'. Good job.

locallyunscene · March 2008

Nice of you to put this idea that's been kicking around in one place in a coherent form. I'm for teamplay-based achievements in NS2. I would also like to see:<ul>Bad Sushi - X marines parasited
Handy Dandy Mechanic - X time spent building
Death From Above - Fall from at least X feet onto Y marines(as skulk)
Silent But Deadly - cover X teammates in umbra
Spider Gorge - ensnare X marines in web
Stay Away! - stomp x marines</li></ul>

spellman23 · March 2008

I like.

This is one of the reasons I like the awards plugin. It helps show achievements (or failures) other than kills. Being mobile on the map, being the healing gorge, using Lerk gas, most time welding, etc.

Granted, the awards plugin only gives the top rated player, and achievements would show a set of players who fulfill the requirements, thus making achievements more conducive for multiple players being more team friendly. However, I've never had a time where someone intentionally went around welding to get the Golden Wrench award, so no worries on people playing for awards. =]

My only concern is that usually achievements plateau, at least the way they're implemented right now for Steam. If there was also a system that gave an achievement each round based on a smaller threshold, I think that would be much more beneficial. Otherwise, someone who was achievement running could simply go around one round only welding, or gorge res building, then after getting the achievement go back to pushing their K:D ratio. At least to me that's not the point. There should be some sort of award/incentive to switch up your roles on a more regular basis instead of grinding that role just to get an achievement.

Domining · March 2008

--- Legendary WoT. Above this line ---

Short version:
Add achievements please.

locallyunscene · March 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 27 2008, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>--- Legendary WoT. Above this line ---

Short version:
Add achievements {that encourage teamplay} please.</div>
I do have to agree though. That is a lot of words.

the_x5 · March 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Domining @ Mar 27 2008, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>--- Legendary WoT. Above this line ---

Short version:
Add achievements please.</div>
You skipped out some equally important facets of this idea: on the server bit and a caution about choosing achievements by resultant behavior (avoiding bad achievements).

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><b>Bad and unhelpful Achievements that must be avoided like the plague:</b></span><ul><li><span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#BB0000">Killing Spree</span></b>
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> total enemies killed to goal
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> kill stealing, stat junkies, rude behavior towards others</li><li><span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#BB0000">Undying</span></b>
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> not dying once in a game
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> hiding from everybody in the game, not participating in helping the team, not assisting out of fear of risk of the first death</li><li> <span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#BB0000">Damage Dealt</span></b>
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> total quantity of damage dealt in a single game exceeds goal
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> not helping your team by only attacking what you get good damage points for, bias towards certain weapons for their damage rather than gameplay function, friendly fire intentionally against players or structures to exploit extra damage points</li><li><span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#BB0000">Time Played</span></b>
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> total time played in hours and/or minutes to goal
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> intentionally dragging out a game for everybody to get a goal (games should be long because the teams are equally matched and fun, not because of apathy to progress due to a conflicting goal), people feel required to play the game too much in their lives to hurry to this achievement (causes negative real-world impact due to where a day's time is being spent too much)</li></ul>What ever is implemented make sure it is both fun, helpful for point the newbies in the right direction, and encouraging the behaviors that we all hold most dear to this game such as the team attributes such as selflessness, constructiveness, communication, assisting, etc.

StixNStonz · March 2008

I disagree, but only slightly. I think that overall the achievements should encourage teamwork most of all. But you could still have a few that reward skill or even more isolated game scenarios. Perhaps a kill streak of 10 could be worth 30 points, and dealing 3000 damage in a round could be worth 30 as well. But these would be one-off achievements.

The bigger achievements would be ones like Welding. Get 5 points for every 2 full minutes of welding, up to 50 points for 20 minutes, but when you hit 20 minutes, you get a bonus of 50 points. So, there's the incremental points as you progress, and then a big fat bonus for completing the achievement.

Some achievements CAN be more elitist-driven, like an overall damage achievement, but you can easily balance these by low scores and/or high requirements. But for the ones that are to the benefit of the community, such as the ones that encourage people to learn parts of the game and use teamwork, give them lower requirements and higher points.

Another example; 50 points for killing 10 marines with only two bites and a parasite each (with them having taken no other damage). Perhaps give 5 points for the first one as well. This alone would teach players the most efficient early-game kill method.

the_x5 · March 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 27 2008, 06:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I disagree, but only slightly. I think that overall the achievements should encourage teamwork most of all. But you could still have a few that reward skill or even more isolated game scenarios. Perhaps a kill streak of 10 could be worth 30 points, and dealing 3000 damage in a round could be worth 30 as well. But these would be one-off achievements.

The bigger achievements would be ones like Welding. Get 5 points for every 2 full minutes of welding, up to 50 points for 20 minutes, but when you hit 20 minutes, you get a bonus of 50 points. So, there's the incremental points as you progress, and then a big fat bonus for completing the achievement.

Some achievements CAN be more elitist-driven, like an overall damage achievement, but you can easily balance these by low scores and/or high requirements. But for the ones that are to the benefit of the community, such as the ones that encourage people to learn parts of the game and use teamwork, give them lower requirements and higher points.

Another example; 50 points for killing 10 marines with only two bites and a parasite each (with them having taken no other damage). Perhaps give 5 points for the first one as well. This alone would teach players the most efficient early-game kill method.</div>
But wouldn't you be risking the "slippery slope" effect? There are so many good ones to be had -- even ones that may not serve a particular purpose, but could be fun and perhaps humorous. (ie: terminal velocity, from portal)

PS: I'm all for letting the community decide (vote?) what the titles of these achievements should be.

StixNStonz · March 2008

The slippery slope effect has nothing to do with game design. Such an effect means that once you give in on one thing, you'll give in on the next, and the next, etc. In games, the devs place a line, and that line never moves unless they decide for it to move.

I'm just saying that you shouldn't alienate the more traditional goals of a videogame. Traditional goals for Shooters are obviously dealing damage and getting kills. While NS2 will be focusing more on teamwork and such, it could still pay small homage to the other aspects of Shooters with a few smaller achievements. Have perhaps 80% of the achievements be dedicated to promoting 'proper' gameplay and player development, with the other 20% be dedicated to the traditional types.

StixNStonz · March 2008

There's another small aspect of achievements that should be mentioned.

Say they totalled 1000 attainable 'points', and in the TAB scoreboard anyone could see anyone else's points. Tailor the achiements so that a teamwork-oriented player could have them complete within 2 weeks of somewhat dedicated playing (an hour a night?).

That sounds like it would be approximately the amount of time it takes a player to surpass the NS1 learning curve. Of course, NS1 takes a lot longer than that to master, especially since a large part of mastering NS comes with intimate level knowledge (and there are 17 official classic maps right now?).

But if you give objectives for a new player to overcome in his first couple weeks, it would be an innate helping hand. Make them easily visible, perhaps with their own shortcut in the main menu, under 'Find Servers'. That way, people who are new to the game and start asking questions could have people tell them 'try to earn all the achievements'. They would then check them out, and come back asking perhaps, 'what does it mean to kill a marine with bite bite parasite?'.

Used as a quasi self-learning tutorial, the power of achievements is massive.

the_x5 · March 2008

*new, impluse idea*

Or rather just an icon for (like constie, PT, dev, etc. icons) shows up next to the name on the scoreboard (if there is one in NS2 at all) of those who have completed all achievements?

schkorpio · March 2008

i really like the idea of achievements, mostly because it will bring extended game life and varied game experience.

some player will not bother with achievements untilt hey are bored of the normal game, and some people will just like doing them for the fun of it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

The achievements need to be carefully designed though, so that they enhance gameplay and create well, fun!

I can imagine alien achievements would be very fun :
e.g. how long a skulk can hang on to a marines back, extra points for cumbersome HA and extra points for riding a jetpacker lol

or onos crushing people by jumping on them
amount of people knocked over with a single onos charge ...

I think a funny (but possibly annoying one) would be Turtle achievement for the commander, basicly by not spreading out but only creating an impenetrable fortress of turrets, mines, welded obstacles in marine spawn, and seeing how long you can hold out <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

would these acheivements give cause for awards though? like icons on your name? or medals/bagdes on your armour? battle scares on alien players?

Droggog · March 2008

Phew.

I'm <i>strongly</i> against using those "stats" to restrict access to some servers. Not only it has the risk to divide the community, it would also encourage some people to abuse the system so they can access X or Y server.

What can we do to prevent those players to setup their own server and "achieve" whatever they need to? Given the small budget, i believe official/ranked servers are not an option there.

That said, i don't mind having achievements in NS2, if it is just for the "fun/look at my icon!" factor. Especially if it can encourage players to use teamplay, etc. Heck, even just for a fancy icon in the scoreboard, some idiots might abuse it... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />

pSyk0mAn · March 2008

I agree with Drogg on this on.

If I understand this correctly, there will be certain goals to gather achievements and after you achieved "everything" you get a (or the highest) fancy icon.

New players don't stats###### anyway and their lack of teamwork is mostly because of the overwhelming new things they have to learn.
While this seems a very good idea to point new players in the right direction as already mentioned multiple times before, it won't do anything to enforce teamwork in the long term nor decrease statswhoring.
After you gather all those achievements, you can proceed with statswhoring, if you are sick of building stuff, just like some clanplayers do in ns right now by running straight to the hive.

Don't take me wrong, I'm supporting this idea, but I'm also wondering, wether it maybe would be smarter to have the achievements either wearing off slowly, if you won't keep up the teamwork, or to add some sort of a 2nd reward system enforcing teamwork in the long term.

Harimau · March 2008

You seem mistaken about something.
Natural Selection is a game about <b>killing</b> not <i>welding</i>.

So I agree with:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 28 2008, 08:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm just saying that you shouldn't alienate the more traditional goals of a videogame. Traditional goals for Shooters are obviously dealing damage and getting kills. While NS2 will be focusing more on teamwork and such, it could still pay small homage to the other aspects of Shooters</div>

I also disagree that achievements for kill streaks or lack of deaths or other combat-related achievements cause undesirable behaviour. They've done it in battlefield 2 and I never saw that it created rambos or stupid behaviour (of course that has a lot to do with the flow of the game).

And I've gotta say, if you seriously hide for a whole game waiting through all that boredom so as not to die, you've got some admirable determination.

I think all this talk of misbehaviour is unwarranted, there'll always be undesirable behaviour but I'd say they're simply anomalies. There's always going to be someone playing for achievements (if they're there) or kills/deaths, and there will even be a few that will have the determination to ignore everything else and do stupid/boring things to get those achievements.

The greatest strength of the achievement system is encouraging diversification and breaking routine - and as an extension of that, encouraging players to learn (all aspects of) the game. But if you don't encourage killing people as a skulk, or a fade, etc. where's the incentive to learn those roles? Or is Natural Selection going to turn into a competition of who can weld/heal the most? Please.

I do understand that having a kill streak achievement may ruin the game for others and perhaps undermine teamwork, but it's just a one-off thing, no? But even if it weren't to go in, I have no idea why you wouldn't want damage achievements - or why you would choose, in ANY situation, a lower damage weapon to a higher damage weapon if you had the option of a higher damage weapon (as x5 has suggested that people do) that is better at killing members of the opponent team.

However, dealing damage really isn't much of an achievement in NS <i>(considering someone can be medpacked, or regen health. However, it does give new players incentive to <b>learn to aim</b>)</i>. Kills are.

But if you're still so averse to having (many) strictly kill-based achievements, then what about achievements that total both kills and <b>kill assists</b> (which <b>will</b> be going in, right? Right?) - it's a better indicator of what you've done <b>to</b> the other team, by extension: <b>what you've done for <i>your</i> team</b> - and rewarding kill assists encourages sticking together: <b>team behaviour</b>.

pSyk0mAn · March 2008

Agreed.

Statswhoring by ignoring all other tasks is one thing, but sooner or later everyone should at least be ok-ish in aiming and movement to cause more damage, to avoid to be killed and thus contribute more to the team.
If kills, kill assists, deaths and whatever else are just a little part of the whole big archievement thing, there should be no problem with that nor with people only focusing on this part.
Eventually you'll be in a team full of supporters, welder-guys, healers and you either have to learn or get defeated easily.

darktimes · March 2008

agree whit the_x5

ACHIEVEMENTs should be in but not killing spree or things like this..

achievements who improve gameplay and teamwork are a way better way to make the game more fun and interesting as simple kills

vote <b>JES</b> for achievemends

Radix · March 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Mar 26 2008, 08:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I strongly feel however that kills, damage dealt, deaths, and time played are stupid benchmarks or achievements to use. Why? Because they have no relation to how challenging the games played were...</div>

That's incorrect. Many elements of gameplay difficulty are quantifiable such as upgrades or classes. Further, you're missing the primary goal of a matchmaking system entirely - to remove the rage factor of dying to a superior technical player.

StixNStonz · March 2008

Without the need for ranked servers, the devs could place restrictions on these achievements. Perhaps that the games need to last longer than 15 or 20 minutes, and that the playercount needs to be higher than 10 or so.

Again, the kill and damage achievements should just be one-timers. Whereas the more team-work ones should be longer term.

How does this sound for a list of achievements?

50: Cap an RT within the first 2 minutes of a game as an Alien, 20 times.

50: Cap 50 RTs as an alien.

50: Drop an MC in the first 2 minutes of the game, 5 times.

50: Drop a DC in the first 2 minutes of the game, 5 times.

50: Drop an SC in the first 2 minutes of the game, 5 times.

100: Drop a hive which built to completion, 10 times.

50: Get 3 kills from a single OC, 5 times.

50: Take 2000 damage in a single Heavy Armor suit, 3 times.

50: Fly 1000 feet in a single JP, 3 times.

50: Get three kills with a single mine, 10 times.

50: Weld armor for 1000 seconds.

50: Weld structures for 2000 seconds.

50: Kill a lerk with a hand grenade, 10 times.

50: Build marine structures for 1000 seconds.

50: Weld 100 weldables.

50: Pistol kill a fade when you dealt less than half the damage to kill him, 3 times.

50: Winning 3 games as Commander (spending more than 75% of the time in the chair).

20: Get a kill streak of 10 as a skulk.

20: Get a kill streak of 10 as a marine.

20: Deal 5000 damage in one round.

20: Take 5000 damage in one round.

20: Kill over 150 res of aliens with a single HMG.

Total: 1000 points.

900 points are for longer-term teamwork-related objectives, while the final 100 are more twitch- and aim-related objectives.

I think a list of achievements like this would take roughly 2 weeks of dedicated playing to fulfill. That is, if a player was playing at least an hour a day, and was keeping an eye on his achievements, always with a goal in him mind.

I also think the achievements page should show up-to-date progress. Most 360 achievements don't do this, whereas I believe its the Orange Box achievements that do. As in, the achievements area in-game says '30/50 glowies killed' or whatever.

StixNStonz · March 2008

Now that I think of it, there are still no achievements for a lot of things. Such as devouring HA, killing onos or gorges, killing hives, killing structures, biting RTs, even using the 'request order' command. The achievements could obviously be tinkered (and a bunch could be lowered to 25 instead of 50), but I feel that that list is a good starting point.

spellman23 · March 2008

I'd recommend at least grabbing the ones in the current awards plugin found here: <a href="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=329" target="_blank">http://www.nsmod.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=329</a>

It includes stuff like number of Onos devours (titled Hungry Hungry Onos), most Primal Screams (I am Lerk, Hear me ROAR), and most heal sprays.

It also has a few comical ones, or I guess anti-awards. Such as died with the most res in equipment, Minesweeper (guess what that's for), or most deaths due to electrification (Fork in Socket, man I love that title). Probably can skip these for the achievements. I mean, unless you see an advantage to getting killed on mines.....

I also am against making servers that require certain stats/achievements. If you care that much about having a non-n00b game, make a private passworded one.

Harimau · March 2008

Let's consider a scenario.
NS2Player, your average FPS player, has just finished welding a set number of armour/building points. And hey! He just got an achievement!
"Hey, that's cool. I actually got something for all that time spent holding a button. Let's see what else there is."
He then proceeds to get the achievement for RTs Built and then Kill Assists, and then by some stroke of luck or skill manages to singlehandedly kill 5 skulks in succession without dying.
And that's not the easiest thing in the world.
So, he's going to get an achievement now, right? Right?
<b>WRONG.</b>
"Wait, what the f-ck. Where's my damn achievement?!"
Poor misguided b-stard. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
-
Do you see what you've done? You're <b>cheating</b> them of their expectations. And you're not a <b>cheater</b>, are you?
-
And even <b>if</b> you told them there were no achievements for kill/death/damage-related things beforehand (I would advise you didn't - you might as well say 'This is a team game, people that wanna play first person shooters can F-CK OFF.'); they would simply think
"well, that's kinda lame. why would they have achievements but none for kills? this would've been better if they had..."
It would've been better, indeed. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />

StixNStonz · March 2008

So, Harimau, that was in favour of what I was suggesting? It sounded negative and came right after my post, so I was confused <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

Harimau · March 2008

Oh, no, not necessarily.
It was against the suggestion that there be no (or even severely limiting the number of) kill/death/damage-based achievements.

As for the various life-form-specific awards, then Yes. I like that idea.
Actually, allow me to quote myself:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 28 2008, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The greatest strength of the achievement system is encouraging diversification and breaking routine - and as an extension of that, encouraging players to learn (all aspects of) the game. But if you don't encourage killing people as a skulk, or a fade, etc. where's the incentive to learn those roles? Or is Natural Selection going to turn into a competition of who can weld/heal the most? Please.</div>

Also, I do like the under-achievements idea ;P (Include being-devoured 3 or 5 times in one round, for example.) It should be broadcast across the server when someone gets that non-award. It'd be hilarious.

StixNStonz · March 2008

Under-Achievements is an idea that would be a first for an actual dev team to implement. Sure there are the goofy Unreal 'DOMINATION' ones etc, but NS2 could implement the idea in a much more classy way.

What about the same types of under-achievements that we have in plugin form right now (Fork In Socket: most electrification deaths, etc), but when they are achieved in-game, a small news ticker goes by on the bottom of the screen or such? Instead of the 'most' achievements, perhaps it would be more like '10 elec deaths', or being devoured X number of times, or devouring X number of times, etc.

Could be fun. And if it was a small news ticker that goes by at the bottom of the screen, it would be a semi-classy way of showing everyone a funny, random stat.

locallyunscene · March 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Droggog @ Mar 28 2008, 05:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm <i>strongly</i> against using those "stats" to restrict access to some servers. Not only it has the risk to divide the community, it would also encourage some people to abuse the system so they can access X or Y server.

What can we do to prevent those players to setup their own server and "achieve" whatever they need to? Given the small budget, i believe official/ranked servers are not an option there.

That said, i don't mind having achievements in NS2, if it is just for the "fun/look at my icon!" factor. Especially if it can encourage players to use teamplay, etc. Heck, even just for a fancy icon in the scoreboard, some idiots might abuse it... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /></div><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Mar 24 2008, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674104"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I think you're losing sight of the goal here. Any sufficiently determined player can BS/workaround acheivements, requirements, etc. The goal of the achievements is not to teach people how to play but to help them to learn. It's to make them ask "why is parasiting people a requirement to play on a higher level server". A player the BS's all the achievements to get to the next level will get there and either say "Hmm, I don't understand what's going on. This game sucks" or "Hmm, I don't understand what's going on. I guess I should go figure out what all those achievements were." NS2 is simply not a game for the former player. You have to want to learn to play.</div>

the_x5 · April 2008

<strike>New</strike> Revised question:

Should the focus be more on helping newbies learn to play the game?

Harimau · April 2008

That question is filled with an extreme amount of bias toward the former, or rather, against the latter.

locallyunscene · April 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Apr 21 2008, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>New question:

Should the focus be more on helping newbies learn to play the game rather than how to segment the community?</div>
Are you referring to acheivements that lock out players vs those that don't? Something broader?

Achievements in NS2

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