Achievements in NS2

Harimau · April 2008

Yeah it's a pretty stupid question. The <i>focus</i> is <b>obviously</b> not to "segment the community".

Dark Rage · May 2008

I could have sworn we have already had a thread talking about achievements. At any rate achievements should be used purely for fun and generally are only a reflection of how long someone has been playing/doing a specific task. Achievements/ranks are not an accurate representation of skill (especially in a team environment).

A game that I think does a great job of ranks and achievements is World in Conflict. You can view my profile here <a href="http://www.massgate.net/profile.php?0,351340" target="_blank">WIC Profile</a>

Rank is a reflection of total points and leaderboard position. Leaderboard position is determined by total points in your last 20 games (and decays over time). Rank is never used to balance play but to give people a general idea of who has been playing longer.

NS can implement similar achievements and ranks. I will not rehash as many people have given suggestions for specific achievements. In summary, if implemented ranks and achievements can add an element of replayability and reward players who stick it out.

Harimau · May 2008

Achievements (combined with stats-tracking) can be used as an indicator of experience, though. So you could rank players based on experience, eg. Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced.

the_x5 · May 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 23 2008, 11:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Are you referring to acheivements that lock out players vs those that don't? Something broader?</div>
Yes to both questions -- the second yes referring to the wide context as discussed in other player skill balance and hypothetical matchmaking threads.

Bacillus · May 2008

The one thingy you're missing is that your achievements are hardly suitable for ns gameplay as we know it. If achievements take a lot of time to get, people just hang around lategame not even trying to finish the game. TF2 achievement work because, there isn't tech, lifeform and map control advantages and most of the awards are done in a few minutes.

If you encourage people doing something that takes 20 minutes, the quickest way to get it is to stick around in the part of the game you can do it. The old /skill stats all over again, people sporing and spiking while they could be onosing the base down.

Awards can't really unlock servers. A good player on some multiplayer can rack up kill and adapt in the ns gameplay in a short period of time. Now you might be forcing him to play on low-skill servers for days or even weeks.

the_x5 · June 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Droggog @ Mar 28 2008, 05:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Phew.

I'm <i>strongly</i> against using those "stats" to restrict access to some servers. Not only it has the risk to divide the community, it would also encourage some people to abuse the system so they can access X or Y server.

What can we do to prevent those players to setup their own server and "achieve" whatever they need to? Given the small budget, i believe official/ranked servers are not an option there.

That said, i don't mind having achievements in NS2, if it is just for the "fun/look at my icon!" factor. Especially if it can encourage players to use teamplay, etc. Heck, even just for a fancy icon in the scoreboard, some idiots might abuse it... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /></div>
A bit pessimistic about the trends of human behavior, but you make a good point. There will be bad apples.

Let me ask you a few questions that approach this topic in another way:

Isolating the achievements thing from the server-balancing thing, meaning that just the achievements alone are there and it doesn't affect server access at all.
1. Would you be in support of this idea if it was just achievements?
2. What would you say to those that make a valid point about the difference in player skill level a game will see years later in its life?
and most importantly...
3. Are achievements enough, in your opinion, to cause significant improvement in player behaviors, such as cooperative teamwork?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pSyk0mAn @ Mar 28 2008, 05:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I agree with Drogg on this on.
If I understand this correctly, there will be certain goals to gather achievements and after you achieved "everything" you get a (or the highest) fancy icon.

New players don't stats###### anyway and their lack of teamwork is mostly because of the overwhelming new things they have to learn. <span style="color:#FFFF00">[note: this is <i>your</i> personal assumption of an average, and thus could be argued as being a fallacy]</span>
While this seems a very good idea to point new players in the right direction as already mentioned multiple times before, it won't do anything to enforce teamwork in the long term nor decrease statswhoring.
After you gather all those achievements, you can proceed with statswhoring, if you are sick of building stuff, just like some clanplayers do in ns right now by running straight to the hive.

Don't take me wrong, I'm supporting this idea, but I'm also wondering, wether it maybe would be smarter to have the achievements either wearing off slowly, if you won't keep up the teamwork, or to add some sort of a 2nd reward system enforcing teamwork in the long term.</div>
A second reward system would be preferable, decaying achievements is just a horrible idea. In truth, it would encourage players to waste their lives trying to maintain their level, making NS2 disgustingly close to one of the primary vices of a MMORPG. Of couse, everybody is different, but why stress people out with maintaining their achievements? If you combine that with the server access aspect of my original two-part proposal, then you have a real issue where old friends you used to have fun play with couldn't get in the server simply because they haven't played in a long time. Furthermore, it assumes people forget their learned skills completely which just isn't true (unless you have clinical memory loss).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pSyk0mAn @ Mar 28 2008, 06:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Agreed.

Statswhoring by ignoring all other tasks is one thing <span style="color:#FFFF00">[not just "one thing", a very critically important thing for having fun with teamwork and even arguably team balance]</span>, but sooner or later everyone should at least be ok-ish in aiming and movement to cause more damage, to avoid to be killed and thus contribute more to the team.
If kills, kill assists, deaths and whatever else are just a little part of the whole big achievement thing, there should be no problem with that nor with people only focusing on this part.
Eventually you'll be in a team full of supporters, welder-guys, healers and you either have to learn or get defeated easily.</div>
You don't have to put emphasis on the FPS-stat type of achievements because the game <i>is</i> an FPS.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darktimes @ Mar 28 2008, 07:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>agree whit the_x5

ACHIEVEMENTs should be in but not killing spree or things like this..

achievements who improve gameplay and teamwork are a way better way to make the game more fun and interesting as simple kills

vote <b>JES</b> for achievemends</div>
Yes, my core desirable outcome for the idea I'm proposing in this topic was indeed about reinforcing teamplay behaviors and having some fun doing it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Mar 28 2008, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>That's incorrect. Many elements of gameplay difficulty are quantifiable such as upgrades or classes. Further, you're missing the primary goal of a matchmaking system entirely - to remove the rage factor of dying to a superior technical player.</div>
1. Yes I know many are quantifiable, but some would make poor choices to have as achievements.
2. No, I'm not blind the primary goal of the matchmaking system, nor do I think I would describe it as an antidote to a "rage factor". The matchmaking system is about making the game balance and by proxy theory, therefore more <i>fun</i> to play in multiplayer.

I'm starting to feel combining this "achievements idea" with server access in the same thread was poor foresight on my part... It's creating confusion and detracting from the most important idea here.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 28 2008, 02:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>How does this sound for a list of achievements?</div>
One by one:

50: <i>Cap an RT within the first 2 minutes of a game as an Alien, 20 times.</i>
<b>vote <span style="color:#00CC00">yes</span></b>
Fantastic, this will both help new players be aware that capping resources early is important and encourage that behavior right off the bat. Perhaps you should make this achievement split up into multiple levels (i.e.: 20 times, 60 times, 100 times), that way new players are reminded and realize they can get more achievements by repeating the same behavior.

50: <i>Cap 50 RTs as an alien <span style="color:#FFFF00">or marine</span></i>
<b>vote <span style="color:#00CC00">yes</span></b>, to both
Resource collection is a vital aspect of teamplay in Natural-Selection (though it is often neglected in NS by "pubstars" who just expect somebody else to do it), and will almost certainly continue to be important in NS2. Reinforcing that behavior of vigorously going after resource nodes from early on with new players (without having to get yelled/complained at by frustrated teammates) is a excellent idea. Again, this might be best to break up into multiple achievement levels to hammer the idea home and provide extra incentive. Try an exponential (instead of linear) in this case since the task is clearer, (5^x)*10: 50 RTs, 250 RTs, 1250 RTs. And lastly make <i>sure</i> it such that it is measured in RTs that you <i>helped build</i>, or this idea will be ruined by people fighting over capping an RT for themselves (instead of working as a team to cap it). If both teammates can get closer to the achievement by working cooperatively then that does wonders for reinforcing teamplay as well. (and introduces new players to the power of <i>multi-build</i> -- when multiple players building the same structure divide the time needed to build that structure)

50: <i>Drop an MC in the first 2 minutes of the game, 5 times.</i>
I'm neither for no against this. If chambers are unchained in NS2 this could be a good idea, but if they are not then this could cause problems.

50: <i>Drop a DC in the first 2 minutes of the game, 5 times.</i>
I'm neither for no against this. If chambers are unchained in NS2 this could be a good idea, but if they are not then this could cause problems.

50: <i>Drop an SC in the first 2 minutes of the game, 5 times.</i>
I'm neither for no against this. If chambers are unchained in NS2 this could be a good idea, but if they are not then this could cause problems.

100: <i>Drop a hive which built to completion, 10 times.</i>
<b>vote <span style="color:#00CC00">yes</span></b>
Hive building has always been vital for the success of the alien team. (Any idea why the alien team frequent fails to rush to get the second hive up in NS public play? I never understood that apparent laziness...) Again three level may be wise here on a strictly power of ten exponential scale: 1 hive, 10 hives, 100 hives. There is a very specific reason for the one hive level of achievement: new players won't know what a hive is, by congratulating them right away on the first one it draws attention to this being a very, very important behavior to the gameplay (which of course it is).

50: Get 3 kills from a single OC, 5 times
<b>vote <span style="color:#00CC00">yes</span></b>
This is kind of a stat-like achievement but it has another function that makes me support it inspite of that: building defenses / holding territory. Plus I like the way you worded it, if it's what I think you meant. What I think you mean is, "3 marines killed by one particular offense chamber, unless it is destroyed, five different times in your playing of NS2, non-consecutive." You'll have to be more specific, but it's good that you put it as a "number of times to hit this minimum" instead of a straight, cumulative summed-up minimum. The difference is that if it's a sum total then players will tend to just spam OC's without regard to keeping them alive n' running. By wording the algorithm that way, you are not only encouraging players to put the offense chamber in an area where it will see action, but also that they must keep it alive long enough to get the minimum three kills, and repeat that performance five times at minimum.

50: Take 2000 damage in a single Heavy Armor suit, 3 times. <span style="color:#FFFF00">[is that per life?]</span>
Hmm... At least you put, "single Heavy Armor suit", as that makes a huge difference. (it reduces the solo factor because if you die you don't get it). I'm not convinced on this one, yet. It has potential to be a good achievement, much more than the next one I dare say...

50: Fly 1000 feet in a single JP, 3 times.
<b>vote <span style="color:#CC0000">no</span></b>
...why? This doesn't teach any useful behavior. So you can fly. So what? Maybe if it was a map-specific maneuver that is difficult to do. This is kind of... useless?

50: Get three <span style="color:#FFFF00">[or more?]</span> kills with a single mine, 10 times.
<b>vote <span style="color:#00CC00">yes</span></b>, with some trepidation
As much as I am loathe to risk encouraging mine spam this rings as a humorous type of achievement, this does have one great lesson to teach: place your mines <i>wisely</i>. (i.e.: strategic placement for maximum effect and use of resources, such as on an IP, PG, or RT)

50: Weld armor for 1000 seconds.
<b>vote <span style="color:#00CC00">yes</span></b>
No reason not to include this!

50: Weld structures for 2000 seconds.
<b>vote <span style="color:#00CC00">yes</span></b>
No reason not to include this!

50: Kill a lerk with a hand grenade, 10 times.
<b>vote <span style="color:#CC0000">no</span></b>
Remember the Award's Plugin from NSMod.org? Remember how many, not a just some or a few, people in the server (usually Combat, tbh; and especially if it was a bot server) would constantly try to get the knife-kill achievement? Or the "pistol whip" achievement? Apparently it was amusing to be of no help to your team while you tried to knife attacking aliens. Furthermore, why encourage nade spam? Do we want every vent in NS2 to feel like the TFC's original dustbowl map when blue team tried to leave 2nd spawn through the firey gate of incessant nade-spam? Please god no...

50: Build marine structures for 1000 seconds.
<b>vote <span style="color:#00CC00">yes</span></b>
No reason not to include this!

50: Weld 100 <span style="color:#FFFF00">func_</span>weldables.
<b>vote <span style="color:#00CC00">yes</span></b>
Cool way to encourage players to explore mapper-created triggers

50: Pistol kill a fade when you dealt less than half the damage to kill him, 3 times.
Is it worth risking having some players trying to do nothing all game but get attempt to prove they can get this more complex achievement?
(readers, answer that question for yourself before responding) Personally, I'm actually leaning in favor of this idea.

50: Winning 3 games as Commander (spending more than 75% of the time in the chair).
<b>vote <span style="color:#00CC00">yes</span></b>
Winning is game as a commander against a competent, competitive, equally-matched alien team is immensely satisfying. Anything more to celebrate and inflate the ego of a new player so they learn to savor such a victory is excellent. But how do you make it so that it isn't something people can just "fake" to get it? (i.e.: playing against easy, severely-nerfed bots)

20: Get a kill streak of 10 as a skulk.
<b>vote <span style="color:#00CC00">yes</span></b>
Meh, basic/introductory enough for me to support it, despite being a FPS-stat-like achievement

20: Get a kill streak of 10 as a marine.
<b>vote <span style="color:#00CC00">yes</span></b>
Meh, basic/introductory enough for me to support it, despite being a FPS-stat-like achievement

20: Deal 5000 damage in one round.
<b>vote <span style="color:#00CC00">yes</span></b>
Meh, basic/introductory enough for me to support it, despite being a FPS-stat-like achievement

20: Take 5000 damage in one round.
um, repeat?

20: Kill over 150 res of aliens with a single HMG.
<b>vote <span style="color:#CC0000">no</span></b>
Wrong weapon to encourage: use the flamethrower, GL, or shotgun.
Achievements for destroying alien (or marine) structures is a good idea, just fix the weapon with one players <i>should</i> be using for maximum effectiveness.

Good suggestions! And yes progress updates are good too. (Who's hosting the achievement-tracker server and with what money? Will Valve host it at no cost to UWE?)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 28 2008, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Now that I think of it, there are still no achievements for a lot of things. Such as devouring HA, killing onos or gorges, killing hives, killing structures, biting RTs, even using the 'request order' command. The achievements could obviously be tinkered (and a bunch could be lowered to 25 instead of 50), but I feel that that list is a good starting point.</div>
Then expand & revise the list already! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Mar 28 2008, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I'd recommend at least grabbing the ones in the current awards plugin found here: <a href="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=329" target="_blank">http://www.nsmod.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=329</a>

It includes stuff like number of Onos devours (titled Hungry Hungry Onos), most Primal Screams (I am Lerk, Hear me ROAR), and most heal sprays.

It also has a few comical ones, or I guess anti-awards. Such as died with the most res in equipment, Minesweeper (guess what that's for), or most deaths due to electrification (Fork in Socket, man I love that title). Probably can skip these for the achievements. I mean, unless you see an advantage to getting killed on mines.....</div>
And it also has horrible ones like the ones for knife kills and pistol kills which are proven to cause a significant people to act completely stupid.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Apr 23 2008, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>That question is filled with an extreme amount of bias toward the former, or rather, against the latter.</div>
Fine. I revised it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ May 7 2008, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The one thingy you're missing is that your achievements are hardly suitable for ns gameplay as we know it. If achievements take a lot of time to get, people just hang around lategame not even trying to finish the game. TF2 achievement work because, there isn't tech, lifeform and map control advantages and most of the awards are done in a few minutes.

If you encourage people doing something that takes 20 minutes, the quickest way to get it is to stick around in the part of the game you can do it. The old /skill stats all over again, people sporing and spiking while they could be onosing the base down.

Awards can't really unlock servers. A good player on some multiplayer can rack up kill and adapt in the ns gameplay in a short period of time. Now you might be forcing him to play on low-skill servers for days or even weeks.</div>
Unless, the achievements are simple enough or clever enough not to make it something people would want to do over winning the game.

Will a few people always resource hoard for a higher lifeform when a hive is needed or build a gorge fort? Some things you can't eliminate the risk of, but there are ways to reasonably reduce the risk so you can and equilibrium with maximum benefit and minimum risk.

I wasn't unaware of or "missing" that when I posted this topic originally, but perhaps now you can see why I feel strongly that some suggested achievements are better than others.

jjr.heartfelt@hotmail.com · June 2008

Sounds like a good way to get new players to do their "team's" works =].

Here is my suggestion for an achievement, and I call it "Rank".

YET, not the normal ranking system that you see in almost every game that gives the player a higher status rank because of his or her kills.

I recommend a *individual* Teamwork ranking system, meaning your kills wont count unless your with a teammate or within a certain radius of the commander's waypoint. ( This promotes players working together instead of going off solo to improve their rank, while giving marines yet another reason to follow waypoints =])

w0dk4 · July 2008

Achievements are fine as long as they do not interfere with gameplay.
To translate this: Dont give benefits out for completing an achievement!

I hate it in TF2, if you want to have those new cool weapons, you just think about "hmm what achievement to get next", then you concentrate on getting that achievement and you get frustrated on a public server.
So you join a crappy achievement server and do them there.

Wyattx3 · July 2008

Have the achievements related to team based and building goals.

Like: Put up two hives in one game.

Drop three Sensory Chambers.

Drop three Defense Chambers.

Help construct a phase gate.

Weld a single teamate for over 400 armor.

Kill an Onos with a marine in their belly.

You can even have commander mode achievements to promote commanding.

Win a game as commander.

Build 200 structures.

Takedown a hive as commander (Siege turrets would do the trick, or credit for just having downed a hive)

But I agree that things like, "Killing spree" don't belong. The TF2 stats already show what your highest score is for each class, and isn't included in the achievements. So it isn't needed.

Creative, and Team-Oriented Achievements are good. And I think most people would agree.

BCSeph · July 2008

We can spend hours thinking of fun/cool achievements to get, but what about the reward for achieving them all. Someone suggested an icon, like the consti icon. Maybe you could choose different skins, like a marine with a blue helmet or something, or a skulk with glowey eyes.

invader Zim · July 2008

maybe achievements could be granted to teams or squads rather than individuals....

e.g. if a team on a given game, achieves say all 3 hives in the fastest time to date eveyone on that team on that server gets an icon attached to their profile until another team on the same or different server breaks the record.

A similar system could exist for rine squads or teams, if they either achieve something or break a record in some central database they get an award attached to thir profile but they get the award attached to the squad or team rather than the individual. When viewing their profile you could click on the award or record and see all the other players that helped achieve it and the date, server and any other info

this would demand team work for awards and records

of course a weakness wtith this is players leaving and joining server mid game do they or dont they get the award or record , how do u work out their involvement, the other problem is some players may contribute nothing to getting the award their team got and will still get it attached to their profile, but this can be the nature of team play.

if the records and awards are chosen well this maybe minimal. and the records after theyve been broken a few times should be out of reach of teams where one or two players arnt playing ball.

the_x5 · July 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(invader Zim @ Jul 8 2008, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682797"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>maybe achievements could be granted to teams or squads rather than individuals....</div>

Indeed, but in this place it is best if you exemplify your point so other readers can see what you mean.\

StixNStonz had running, brainstorming list I replied to. Could you please point to some of those, or perhaps some of the others mentioned (or some new ones), so they could be discussed in greater detail?

Bacillus · July 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(invader Zim @ Jul 8 2008, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682797"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>maybe achievements could be granted to teams or squads rather than individuals....
e.g. if a team on a given game, achieves say all 3 hives in the fastest time to date eveyone on that team on that server gets an icon attached to their profile until another team on the same or different server breaks the record.</div>
That might be nice as long as random teams are on. Otherwise it might turn out to be a nasty little stack. I'm still a little worried about the prolonged games, but that at least eliminates the completely individual stats driven gameplay when it comes to achievements. New parasites per minute and total assisted frags might be somewhat useful indicators for teamwork.

the_x5 · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Jul 8 2008, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>That might be nice as long as random teams are on. Otherwise it might turn out to be a nasty little stack. I'm still a little worried about the prolonged games, but that at least eliminates the completely individual stats driven gameplay when it comes to achievements. New parasites per minute and total assisted frags might be somewhat useful indicators for teamwork.</div>

There always the possibility of that, but of course appeasing and controlling ALL possible aspects of recalcitrant group behavior is, regrettably, impossible. At least I'm sure we could agree that the pro's of teamwork-oriented achievements outweigh the possible cons that could arise, aye?

PS: Considering PsympleJester made a <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=104752" target="_blank">new thread</a> on this topic apparently it needs to be brought up again for newer visitors. Please try to use search people. Nobody's perfect but we need to remember to try search, please.

locallyunscene · October 2008

This topic has been dead for a couple of months. I prefer to link it for those interested in reading it and letting discussion continue in the new thread in these situations.

Carte Blanche · October 2008

A high kill to death ratio suggests an invaluable player. I understand that there are many other ways to measure skill and to be useful to the team, but I seriously doubt that anyone has enough twitch skill to get a high K:D ratio without intimate knowledge of alien lifeforms, alien strategies, marine strategies, and marine technology. Not to mention intimate knowledge of the maps being played (which means lots of play time). All of those things are necessary for getting a high K:D ratio. However a high K:D ratio is not necessary to being an invaluable team-mate.

But yeah I like achievements, and no they should definitely not centralized around kills/deaths/damage, as those things come secondary to strategy (although there are certain players who can wander into the alien hive and practically win the game for a team).

locallyunscene · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Carte Blanche @ Oct 3 2008, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>A high kill to death ratio suggests an invaluable player. I understand that there are many other ways to measure skill and to be useful to the team, but I seriously doubt that anyone has enough twitch skill to get a high K:D ratio without intimate knowledge of alien lifeforms, alien strategies, marine strategies, and marine technology. Not to mention intimate knowledge of the maps being played (which means lots of play time). All of those things are necessary for getting a high K:D ratio. However a high K:D ratio is not necessary to being an invaluable team-mate.

But yeah I like achievements, and no they should definitely not centralized around kills/deaths/damage, as those things come secondary to strategy (although there are certain players who can wander into the alien hive and practically win the game for a team).</div>
K:D ratio doesn't really have anything to do with achievements. A "knife ten skulks" achievement would not be indicative of skill at all, nor would it be a good team oriented goal. Since achievements are bad at describing skill team oriented achievements are better because at least they mean a player knows how to work together with his teammates.

Firewater · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Mar 26 2008, 08:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>The problem:</b></span>
I observed this in the thread about <a href="http://<a%20href=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....howtopic=103981</a>" target="_blank">how to balance skill on a server</a>. Given the following quote, my own observations of issues with newbies and experienced players, and many other factors I think it is clear this is a problem with need to be addressed.

First let me give my response to this quote, then I will move on to just one part of the solution which I feel could be implemented in NS2.

...and x5 too. (I agree with your definition pertaining to skill being un-quantifiable) But on the other hand, as another already said here achievements could be used as part of a "tutorial" to help new people learn or notice things some of the things you can do.

<u>READ THIS</u>:
I <i>strongly</i> feel however that kills, damage dealt, deaths, and time played are stupid benchmarks or achievements to use. Why? Because they have no relation to how challenging the games played were, how well the user used teamwork, how well the user followed the team's strategy or commanded that strategy to specific tactics, or even how much the user is learning the game.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>Part-of-the-Solution Idea Summary:</b></span>
It could be argued that this problem canâ€™t be solved completely, but there are ways to address it.
<b>This idea is to propose using achievements to help at least point new players in the right directions of learning the game and promoting teamwork. It is also being suggested that this idea be used as a means to use that % of completed achievements as a variable to allow users entry to â€œlevel appropriateâ€ servers with applicable reason and fairness (i.e.: a server variable / cvar, at the discretion of the server admin(s)).</b>
Here's a far better list of possible achievements:<ul><li><span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#00BB00">Time Welded</span></b>
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> total seconds welding a target to goal
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> welding teammates' armor on marines</li><li><span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#00BB00">Damage Healed</span></b> (healspray)
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> total number hit points restored to goal
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> healing teammates as a gorge on aliens</li><li> <span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#00BB00">Kill Assists</span></b>
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> total number kill assists (non-automated defenses, allied teammate user ONLY) to goal
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> covering fire for your teammates, raising the user's situational awareness in combat</li><li><span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#00BB00">Hives Built</span></b>
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> total number of hives dropped and grown to completion to goal
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> spending resources on making vital structures for the aliens as opposed to...
(you all know the drill: hoard res, waste it on dying as a higher life form vs. tech-ed up marines, wait to get sieged FTL)</li><li><span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#00BB00">RTs Built</span></b>
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> total seconds of RT building time (whether assisted or not in building of structure)
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> Secondary objective of building resources (unfortunately there is no way to measure defending that RT that I can think of)</li><li><span style="font-family:Courier New">ACHIEVEMENT: </span> <b><span style="color:#00BB00">Skulk-Missile</span></b>
<span style="font-family:Courier New">MEASURED IN: </span> number of multi-kills to goal with one hit of the weapon "divine wind" (xenocide) to goal IN CLASSIC MODE <i>ONLY</i> (assuming Combat exists)
<span style="font-family:Courier New">BEHAVIOR ENCOURAGED: </span> Getting three hives up, Getting the resources and map control for three hives, breaking down marine turtles, and benefits for players who were gorges for most of the game and now have low resources</li></ul>If you noticed, all of those encourage cooperative team play instead of stat-whoring which is the only real thing a kills, damage, deaths, or time-played achievement could result in (talking resultant behavior of). Also notice how we should be paying attention to the resulting behavior to each achievement.
(Radix are you listening? Please? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> )

Of course even better skills like returning to a hive under siege, bile bombing a critical marine position, a lerk using gas to suppress light armor marines, phasing through the phase gate to rush the alien hive as marine, light armor marines sacrificing themselves to keep things welded and the heavy armor marines safe, following the commanders orders (or ejecting an insane commander intentionally trying to sabotage the game), giving your buddy cover fire, staying with your buddy, etc. are sadly NOT capable of being measured quantitatively.

Thus, I can ONLY see this as be used as introductory aides specifically to help new players and anything else is just unhelpful. (i.e.: an example of a f-ing BAD achievement in ol' NS terms would be how many knife kills which results in the behavior of idiots trying to see if they can get that one extra knife kill in instead of doing something critical) In the context of helping new players learn, I feel it has a hundredfold the potential that Combat ever did in promoting learning.

IT MUST BE IMPLEMENTED WISELY!

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>Reasoning/Why:</b></span>
Simple, the goal is to encourage behaviors that were described above while helping point new users in the right direction. The second part is that this allow for a percentage of completed achievements to be used as a server variable.

Hence, my reactions to these quotes:
No sir, I disagree. There are better ways, just use my example above. Use % of achievements completed as your server-client variable to use in the conditional.

I agree with you; this is a concern to be addressed in NS2.
Hey now! That's stereotyping newbies. I think the better way to say what you meant is:

<i>"I [Radix] think that new players will all have different level of tolerance for trying to learn a challenge, but I [Radix] feel that NS2 may be too hard for the average tolerance for newbies to learn like NS was"</i>

Ah that's better, aye? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
We share the same goal but I reject your "acid-test" of K&D as being absurd and in practice extremely damaging to the community in the long run as FPS stat-junkies take over.
Right now the trainer servers are the only means of semi-education for new players to learn to play the game. Ego of not being able to jump right in, shunning at learning to play vs. bots, the drastic difference between playing with a bot and a thinking (usually) team of user players, or even just being ignorant of the difficultly going in are some factors that could be hindering newbies with low tolerance for learning to adapt to a challenge in trying the game once, then leaving.

It also tends to be that some of your larger servers are either full NS servers or nearly-full combat servers. Studies show time and time again (sources from XBox Live and EA's Battlefield2 & 2142) show that new players <i>especially</i> will gravitate towards trying larger servers first. Maybe this is because they want to "hide among the herd" where they feel they won't do as much damage to the team if they suck; who knows? What is happening from what I observe in NS for the past 2 years is that people jump into a Combat server that is large and populated and get owned. The hard core FPS Deathmatch junkies do alright on marines and learn to like it, try classic and get frustrated with the concepts of teamwork, patience, strategy, resources needed for upgrades, building structures, and many more of a myriad of things that are CRITICAL to playing the game. If you add the elitism factor and rudeness towards newbies it is no wonder why many new players give up.

Achievements could help, so could to improve the attitude and etiquette of the community towards new players. But as we all should be competent enough to realize is that the community develops AROUND the game. In other words, if our game is just about the individual's scores and one-upmanship then don't be surprised if your percentage of rude jerks goes up. If the game not only encourages teamwork and selflessness, but REQUIRES it; then I'd bet money you'd see people in the community who are passionate about having fun as a team (and are more apt to give back to the community too, i.e. the so called "prosumers")

Make sense? Are you still reading for comprehension and not skimming this? Then letâ€™s wrap this up.
<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>Pro's:</b></span><ul><li>Achievements such as the examples listed could be used to help â€œpointâ€ new players to NS2 in the right direction</li><li>Achievements such as the examples listed could be used to help reinforce positive, selfless teamplay-oriented behaviors (which by the way, isnâ€™t that part of â€œbringing the world together through playâ€? Hmm?)</li><li>Could be used as a % of completed achievements as a required-to-access-server variable that would empower server administrators to make â€œuser levelâ€ appropriate public games more balanced</li></ul><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>Con's:</b></span><ul><li>Presents a degree of risk in that it is a departure to what we (current community) are used to an will have few people whine about it until they get used to it</li><li>Could be poorly implemented in what the achievements are -- with benchmarks like a certain number of kills, certain lack of deaths per game, certain quantity of resources spent on life-forms or structures, a certain amount of time played, a certain number of damage dealt, and many others that would only encourage solo-ing and draw people who are only interested in their virtual stats</li><li>Could be poorly implemented in how the % of completed achievements is used for server-entry â€“ in that it could be abused to segregate the community or trade one kind of elitism for another</li></ul>^^^ Read all of the above and <i>then</i> discuss ^^^

Thanks,

<b><span style="color:#FF0000">x5</span></b></div>

Your list of achievements in based upon your definition of teamwork, which I believe you do not clearly define. My definition of teamwork is that people using their strengths to cover up their teammates weaknesses to achieve victory. Most NS players think teamwork is a bunch of marines hanging around each other so much to make up for a lack of male intimacy that was not experienced when they were younger. Allow me to explain further.

The most successful teams in NS pub or competitive using their own strengths to a degree of efficiency over the other team. Meaning if you have some guys that can really shoot, you let them go off on their own to contain the enemy in a location, while the other team members go around and secure resources and put pressure on nodes. You however do not want to reward those players who are contributing SO much to the team, just because they aren't around other teammates, does NOT mean they are not contributing to the team, or are not team players. They are simply using their talents to the best of their ability for the benefit of the team. Why not reward these players for their talent? Its not the team with the most tackles or interceptions that wins the game, its the team with the most points. Kills in NS are the most crucial aspect to winning the game, which is often ignored because of the popular maladaptive teamwork definition.

If you want to reward the hustle stats such as welding and healing, be my guest. But not in place of the kills or K : D. I see no reason why one should be separated from the other.

Your elitism argument is marginal at best. There are elitists in every single skill based event/game in the world, including online play. If people do not have the skin to see through some mean comments once and a while, then really they have no business subjecting themselves to an environment where a severe lack of skill/talent could be detrimental to one's own ego/self esteem. And why do we need a stats system to reward newbies anyway? New players aren't 5 year olds that need a candy everytime they do something right. There have been MANY games that grew without any concept of stats system implemented by the developers.

and Truthfully, I'd rather have the FPS-Junkies, then a bunch of people who can only weld and heal spray. Without those people who can put points on the board, all the hustle stats in the world do not matter. You want to reward players for doing things that while are important are the LEAST skillful actions in the game. Is that really going to promote the game NS2 is intended to be? I don't think so in the long run, as it will reward the mediocre/lower standard deviation skilled players over the average/higher standard deviation skilled players.

the_x5 · October 2008

Fair enough <b>firewater</b> I didn't define teamwork, but then again as an optimistic-leaning person, I didn't think I had to explain something that trivial. A bit of naivetÃ© on my part perhaps, pardon me.

With that said, it is easy to highlight the flaws in an idea or concept while quite more challenging to present your own case for what should be done and how the existing idea can be improved. Thus far, see some fair points mixed with some slippery-slope pessimistic fallacies, but I do not see your action plan. Where is your new & improved, full-version edit of the original idea? Criticism is welcome, but constructive criticism is much better.

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

locallyunscene · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Oct 4 2008, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The most successful teams in NS pub or competitive using their own strengths to a degree of efficiency over the other team. Meaning if you have some guys that can really shoot, you let them go off on their own to contain the enemy in a location, while the other team members go around and secure resources and put pressure on nodes. You however do not want to reward those players who are contributing SO much to the team, just because they aren't around other teammates, does NOT mean they are not contributing to the team, or are not team players. They are simply using their talents to the best of their ability for the benefit of the team. Why not reward these players for their talent? Its not the team with the most tackles or interceptions that wins the game, its the team with the most points. Kills in NS are the most crucial aspect to winning the game, which is often ignored because of the popular maladaptive teamwork definition.

If you want to reward the hustle stats such as welding and healing, be my guest. But not in place of the kills or K : D. I see no reason why one should be separated from the other.

Your elitism argument is marginal at best. There are elitists in every single skill based event/game in the world, including online play. If people do not have the skin to see through some mean comments once and a while, then really they have no business subjecting themselves to an environment where a severe lack of skill/talent could be detrimental to one's own ego/self esteem. And why do we need a stats system to reward newbies anyway? New players aren't 5 year olds that need a candy everytime they do something right. There have been MANY games that grew without any concept of stats system implemented by the developers.

and Truthfully, I'd rather have the FPS-Junkies, then a bunch of people who can only weld and heal spray. Without those people who can put points on the board, all the hustle stats in the world do not matter. You want to reward players for doing things that while are important are the LEAST skillful actions in the game. Is that really going to promote the game NS2 is intended to be? I don't think so in the long run, as it will reward the mediocre/lower standard deviation skilled players over the average/higher standard deviation skilled players.</div>
You're missing the point. The guys that can shoot don't want achievements, they want to win the game. Besides that, having a K:D achievement doesn't prove anything. Anyone can find a server to get their K:D ratio up to the achievement level. If some NS2Player joins an achievement server to get his welding achievement, at least he's learning how the welder works and how to use it. This topic is really about making achievements work for us instead of against us. Instead of the NS2Player gorge running around getting his "healspray kill achievement" and be useless to the team he's healing players and filling in those "weaknesses" you mentioned earlier. Really, the_x5's list of achievements fit your definition better than any K:D ratio which sounds more like:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Oct 4 2008, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>...a bunch of marines hanging around each other so much to make up for a lack of male intimacy that was not experienced when they were younger.</div>

iKossu · October 2008

I like the idea of achievements in NS2, but instead of using them to restrict access to servers with players out of one's league, they should only notify the player of such "danger". That way new players would be warned of joining a server of frustration for them. They'd be then given few options of server servers with players of somewhat same level of skill.

Radix · October 2008

Achievements are fine, but if you wanted to talk about achievements, why did you piggyback on a thread about matchmaking, refute the arguments about how matchmaking should be done, then continue the discussion on a completely different tangent wholly unrelated to matchmaking?

Just don't make them effect the skill of the game. If I wanted to gank with purples, I would play WoW.

<a href="http://pvpisserious.ytmnd.com/" target="_blank">http://pvpisserious.ytmnd.com/</a>

locallyunscene · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Oct 8 2008, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Achievements are fine, but if you wanted to talk about achievements, why did you piggyback on a thread about matchmaking, refute the arguments about how matchmaking should be done, then continue the discussion on a completely different tangent wholly unrelated to matchmaking?

Just don't make them effect the skill of the game. If I wanted to gank with purples, I would play WoW.

<a href="http://pvpisserious.ytmnd.com/" target="_blank">http://pvpisserious.ytmnd.com/</a></div>
If you're talking to me(because I was one of the last ones to reply) I'm not really for combining achievements and a match making system. Additionally, I think that K:D achievements would be especially poorly suited to such a system because they can be easily faked, and lower the quality of play. I advocate making the achievements useful in at least teaching new players how to work for the team, so even if they are faked, the new player is getting something out of it.

If you're not talking to me then I'll let the_X5 field your question.

Finally, you're in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104" target="_blank">the wrong thread</a> for talking about uniques.

Radix · October 2008

Was talking to x5 and far too lazy to think about dates and who is reading this thread. Sorry if I offended you.

Firewater · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Oct 6 2008, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Fair enough <b>firewater</b> I didn't define teamwork, but then again as an optimistic-leaning person, I didn't think I had to explain something that trivial. A bit of naivetÃ© on my part perhaps, pardon me.</div>

Since you want your achievement list to some how promote the essence of NS2 gameplay, I thought it would be farily obvious to define one's definition of teamwork so a common framework could be establish for support/criticism. I was wrong on that assumption.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>With that said, it is easy to highlight the flaws in an idea or concept while quite more challenging to present your own case for what should be done and how the existing idea can be improved. Thus far, see some fair points mixed with some slippery-slope pessimistic fallacies, but I do not see your action plan. Where is your new & improved, full-version edit of the original idea? Criticism is welcome, but constructive criticism is much better.

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /></div>

I do not have an action plan because it is not clear what type of gameplay you want to promote given your lack of definition for teamwork. If I had to create an achievement system, I would definitely set it to promote my definition of teamwork as stated earlier. I believe I stated that I would include hustle stats, but as well as the amount of kills as an achievement. Furthermore I would also add a damage dealt achievement as well as a damage received achievement. Number of structures destroyed/buiilt would be a good one as well as shot accuracy. The hustle stats such as healing welding building protecting something of value etc.... would also be included.

Either that, or I would completely scrap the idea because I feel that otherwise it doesn't add any value to the game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

Firewater · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Oct 6 2008, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>You're missing the point. The guys that can shoot don't want achievements, they want to win the game.</div>

Yes and is that what achievements should encourage. Behaviors that will help the team win the game. Kills is an obvious stat to measure to do so.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Besides that, having a K:D achievement doesn't prove anything. Anyone can find a server to get their K:D ratio up to the achievement level.</div>

Neither does any of the other achievements listed in X5's list. As anyone can execute the following achievement oriented behaviors to get an achievement level up.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>If some NS2Player joins an achievement server to get his welding achievement, at least he's learning how the welder works and how to use it.</div>
Many NSplayers learned how to use the welder without any sort of achievement other than the gratitude of the player who was the recipient. I don't understand how an anchivement for such a simple behavior will enhance a player's functioning.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>This topic is really about making achievements work for us instead of against us. Instead of the NS2Player gorge running around getting his "healspray kill achievement" and be useless to the team he's healing players and filling in those "weaknesses" you mentioned earlier. Really, the_x5's list of achievements fit your definition better than any K:D ratio which sounds more like:</div>

A poor attempt at humor but whatever its the internet, to expect better would just be disappointing. The point is that these behaviors that already exist in the realm of NS. What behaviors I would like to encourage and what I have seen a general lack of achievement is basic FPS skills. Improving those for all players will just increase game quality for everyone who plays (if everyone improves). These most crucial skills are ignored in this achievement system. Why? Why are the basic fundamentals of FPS play ignored and but irrelevant things like "# of xenocide kills" would be rewarded. Rewarding such trivial things I believe, would not even fit the most crude of definitions for the essence of NS gameplay.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Mar 28 2008, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1674566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>That's incorrect. Many elements of gameplay difficulty are quantifiable such as upgrades or classes. Further, you're missing the primary goal of a matchmaking system entirely - to remove the rage factor of dying to a superior technical player.</div>

Hit the nail on the head completely. If you don't measure the "skill" of an individual a just measure the low-skill feats, how is that creating a system with any sort of validity?

locallyunscene · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Oct 9 2008, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes and is that what achievements should encourage. Behaviors that will help the team win the game. Kills is an obvious stat to measure to do so.</div>
Then suggest a way to measure it that wouldn't encourage players to rambo and not work together. That's all this is about.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Oct 9 2008, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Neither does any of the other achievements listed in X5's list. As anyone can execute the following achievement oriented behaviors to get an achievement level up.</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Oct 6 2008, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>If some NS2Player joins an achievement server to get his welding achievement, at least he's learning how the welder works and how to use it.</div>
Once again, the goal is to make the achievements useful, and not detrimental to gameplay, and more specifically teamplay. Having medics get bonesaw kills or gorges get spit kills are bad achievements.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Oct 9 2008, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Many NSplayers learned how to use the welder without any sort of achievement other than the gratitude of the player who was the recipient. I don't understand how an achievement for such a simple behaviour will enhance a player's functioning.</div>
Of course people learned how to play the game. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make it easier to learn how to play.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Oct 9 2008, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The point is that these behaviours that already exist in the realm of NS. What behaviours I would like to encourage and what I have seen a general lack of achievement is basic FPS skills. Improving those for all players will just increase game quality for everyone who plays (if everyone improves). These most crucial skills are ignored in this achievement system. Why? Why are the basic fundamentals of FPS play ignored and but irrelevant things like "# of xenocide kills" would be rewarded. Rewarding such trivial things I believe, would not even fit the most crude of definitions for the essence of NS gameplay.</div>
Xenocide kills is probably the most trivial thing from the list, it doesn't make the whole list bad. Also that is not meant to be a 'complete' list. There are more achievements that could be made that don't just focus on scut work. Since you seem to be unwilling to make them I will provide a list and see if you would think these are more aligned with your goals, while still satisfying the original idea. <ul><li> Destroy X nodes in a single round</li><li> Kill X sieges</li><li> Kill X siege defenders</li><li> Kill X siege attackers</li><li> Interrupt and kill X marines/gorges building</li><li> Kill X marines/kharaa damaging a node</li><li> Finish building a phase gate X times after being damaged by a melee attack</li><li> Interrupt and kill a phase gate builder X times</li><li> Kill X marines near a phase gate(not in base)</li><li> Kill X kharaa near a phase gate(not in base)</li><li> Hold the enemy team to 2 nodes or less during a round longer than 3 minutes</li><li> Win a round within the first 3 minutes(and greater than 30 secs)</li></ul>I could see pure FPS oriented achievements working(X damage, X kills with weapon Y, ) if they were controlled by being unlockable only in a <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104898" target="_blank">training room</a>, or only on stock maps. However, that's awfully limiting for players.

Firewater · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Oct 10 2008, 09:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Then suggest a way to measure it that wouldn't encourage players to rambo and not work together. That's all this is about.</div>

NS2 development team stated that they would give incentives to small squads to stick together. That is pretty much all the incentive required.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Once again, the goal is to make the achievements useful, and not detrimental to gameplay, and more specifically teamplay. Having medics get bonesaw kills or gorges get spit kills are bad achievements.</div>

Encouraging and rewarding non-skill behaviors will not enhance the quality of the game. Its like trying to win a game of basketball with just a bunch of people that can pass really well, but not shoot.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Of course people learned how to play the game. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make it easier to learn how to play.</div>

Trivial achievements for non-skill behaviors doesn't teach a player anything, it just gives them a "reward" if they manage to do it successfully.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Xenocide kills is probably the most trivial thing from the list, it doesn't make the whole list bad. Also that is not meant to be a 'complete' list. There are more achievements that could be made that don't just focus on scut work. Since you seem to be unwilling to make them I will provide a list and see if you would think these are more aligned with your goals, while still satisfying the original idea. <ul><li> Destroy X nodes in a single round</li><li> Kill X sieges</li><li> Kill X siege defenders</li><li> Kill X siege attackers</li><li> Interrupt and kill X marines/gorges building</li><li> Kill X marines/kharaa damaging a node</li><li> Finish building a phase gate X times after being damaged by a melee attack</li><li> Interrupt and kill a phase gate builder X times</li><li> Kill X marines near a phase gate(not in base)</li><li> Kill X kharaa near a phase gate(not in base)</li><li> Hold the enemy team to 2 nodes or less during a round longer than 3 minutes</li><li> Win a round within the first 3 minutes(and greater than 30 secs)</li></ul>I could see pure FPS oriented achievements working(X damage, X kills with weapon Y, ) if they were controlled by being unlockable only in a <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104898" target="_blank">training room</a>, or only on stock maps. However, that's awfully limiting for players.</div>

Actually I gave a basic list in the post previous to the one you quoted, if you are going to point out deficits, please do so correctly in order to avoid embarrassment.

Nicksaerian · October 2008

Well, that was an insanely large wall of text.

I gathered that achievements don't do squat from the OP and that in order to get into "higher ranked" servers, you would need them. If I'm a casual player with good FPS skills, what's to stop me from avoiding these achievements and simply owning noobs all day in the lower servers?

Secondly, unless these achievements actually give a reward (and no, fancy icons are not rewards), what's the point in going for them?

If they're meant purely as a novelty item for fun and show, it's a great idea! If you think it's going to radically revolutionize how new players learn the game, then I've got a bridge to sell you in brooklyn.

locallyunscene · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Oct 10 2008, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>NS2 development team stated that they would give incentives to small squads to stick together. That is pretty much all the incentive required.</div>
I thought we already established that teamwork is a lot more than just staying in a group. Achievements can target specific areas of required activities without adding bonuses or other game changing elements.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Oct 10 2008, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Encouraging and rewarding non-skill behaviors will not enhance the quality of the game. Its like trying to win a game of basketball with just a bunch of people that can pass really well, but not shoot.</div>
A team that doesn't know the rules of the game is useless too. The gameplay is better if everyone meets at least a minimum gameplay knowledge level. Even if they can't do it, at least they're trying to do the right thing.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Oct 10 2008, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Trivial achievements for non-skill behaviors doesn't teach a player anything, it just gives them a "reward" if they manage to do it successfully.</div>
Not everyone knows what a welder or phasegate is. They need to know how to use these things before they can use them well. As a side note, I don't think you can teach FPS skills with achievements or statistics.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Oct 10 2008, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1689916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Actually I gave a basic list in the post previous to the one you quoted, if you are going to point out deficits, please do so correctly in order to avoid embarrassment.</div>
Ah, sorry. I didn't see the first part of your double post. Those sound more like pure statistics than achievements. I'm not against using statistics in a matchmaking system. And I don't think an achievement system alone would be good for matchmaking. I think it would be good for teaching/representing a level of game knowledge. It could separate newbie servers and "everybody else" servers, but not casual and competitive, nor would I expect it to.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nicksaerian @ Oct 16 2008, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I gathered that achievements don't do squat from the OP and that in order to get into "higher ranked" servers, you would need them. If I'm a casual player with good FPS skills, what's to stop me from avoiding these achievements and simply owning noobs all day in the lower servers?</div>
If a player doesn't know to play the game he belongs in the new player servers. If he's trying to grief that's what server admins are for.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nicksaerian @ Oct 16 2008, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Secondly, unless these achievements actually give a reward (and no, fancy icons are not rewards), what's the point in going for them?</div>
What's the point in video games in general. You almost never actually win anything unless you're playing for actual money. People play for achievements because they're there.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nicksaerian @ Oct 16 2008, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>If they're meant purely as a novelty item for fun and show, it's a great idea! If you think it's going to radically revolutionize how new players learn the game, then I've got a bridge to sell you in brooklyn.</div>
There's no "radical revolution" here. Just learning from the mistakes of TF2.

Achievements in NS2

Comments