ctf_well is a really good map now. Gold Rush is okay, but still too prone to unsatisfying stalemates. The final capture in particular is very difficult to get, and while successfully defending it is very uplifting, failing to capture it is a very unsatisfying experience, far worse than simply failing at an earlier stage.
Turbine sux, cramped total size but with huge spaces. Also CTF. ctf_well is much better, but still not something I care to play if I get to choose. Too much killing, not enough getting anywhere. Haven't played fastlane enough to form an opinion, don't even remember what it looks like.
I find that ctf_well depends a lot on whether one team opts for turtling or not. A resourceful scout can usually get at the intel sooner or later if he can only get into the base, but a sentry at each entrance will prevent almost any incursion short of an übercharge. Too much engineering bogs the map down into a stalemate.
Speaking of stalemates, all those who are so ######ing tired of sudden death please raise your hands. o/
Stopped playing maps which usually get sudden death or quit after I realize it WILL be a SD. The few times I get in one is just funny with the "all to same class" thingy.
They should however, add something that tips the favour to the winning team. It feels like total bull###### when a team wins SD after sitting on their last CP turtling like mad. Or as for hydro, if a team has more % taken of the other CP.
I don't remember which game it was, but I think it was Unreal Tournament 1. In that game, capturing the flag scored your team 100 points. However, picking up the flag from its post (not if it had simply been dropped in the field) scored your team one point. So in case of a draw on captures, the team that had touched the other team's flag more would win. It was also a strong incentive against turtling too much: If your team never even ventured out of your base, the opponents only needed to touch your flag once to win.
Private_ColemanPhD in Video GamesJoin Date: 2002-11-07Member: 7510Members
edited July 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1683943:date=Jul 19 2008, 03:36 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Jul 19 2008, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stopped playing maps which usually get sudden death or quit after I realize it WILL be a SD. The few times I get in one is just funny with the "all to same class" thingy.
They should however, add something that tips the favour to the winning team. It feels like total bull###### when a team wins SD after sitting on their last CP turtling like mad. Or as for hydro, if a team has more % taken of the other CP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I haven't played enough but there is no reason why a team shouldn't be able to string together some ubers and take any point. If engineers (I assume turtling engineers are what you are referring to) can defend for that long (which is actually very hard against a decent team) they deserve to win.
Fastlane is a pretty dodgy map. It isn't particularly pretty nor is it a good layout. The open spaces don't allow engineers (especially), heavies, soldiers, pyros or basically any class but sniper or scout to play well for defending/taking points.
With 1-2 snipers, least 2 engineers covering one entrance or two each and the rest of the team supporting the engineers, you are pretty much out of luck. You need to be vastly superior to break through or somehow scare away the mobile team before going for the sentries. Trying to charge in with uber and get a sentry is so hard when soldiers and demos send you airborne and the sentry instantly shoves you back a good bit, or keeps you afloat in the skybox. The positions are just too sentry friendly and I have yet to meet a spy which times his zappers with a uber or normal attack. This is all on pub so I guess it isn't too surprising.
They don't deserve to win just because they can keep everyone out, if that was the case it would be dustbowl and not hydro. It's a map of interchangeable roles, not permanent ones.
<!--quoteo(post=1684021:date=Jul 19 2008, 05:12 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Jul 19 2008, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What, it just goes into stalemate or continues until server time for map runs out and suddenly ends?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the round ends with no victor, it goes into stalemate ("You all lose!") and the round restarts, or if the time is up it goes on to the next map.
<!--quoteo(post=1683967:date=Jul 19 2008, 02:10 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jul 19 2008, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't remember which game it was, but I think it was Unreal Tournament 1. In that game, capturing the flag scored your team 100 points. However, picking up the flag from its post (not if it had simply been dropped in the field) scored your team one point. So in case of a draw on captures, the team that had touched the other team's flag more would win. It was also a strong incentive against turtling too much: If your team never even ventured out of your base, the opponents only needed to touch your flag once to win.
TF2 should use that scoring system too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->SourceForts (a HL2 CTF mod with basebuilding, in case you were wondering) uses the same system. It's awesome because it rarely ends in a draw and if it does end in a draw it really does mean the game was <i>that</i> close.
It also incentivises offensive play whereas TF2 gives campers a better chance of winning (holding the last point forces Sudden Death, and in Sudden Death camping is the best method of survival).
<!--quoteo(post=1683911:date=Jul 18 2008, 06:42 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jul 18 2008, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find that ctf_well depends a lot on whether one team opts for turtling or not. A resourceful scout can usually get at the intel sooner or later if he can only get into the base, but a sentry at each entrance will prevent almost any incursion short of an übercharge. Too much engineering bogs the map down into a stalemate.
Speaking of stalemates, all those who are so ######ing tired of sudden death please raise your hands. o/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seriously? There are unwritten rules in any game... and one of them is that scouts suck after the first 30 seconds in well. You're supposed to use sentries to defend in well, it's inherent to the design of the map. Well is mostly about getting around sentries with organized demo/soldier attacks... and then maby if you get enough of the sentry out the first players to die in the push can switch to scout and rush in during the empty lull. But generally, scouts shouldn't be used in regular play on that map, they aren't good enough for the defense, and thier speed is a null advantage because the map is set up in such a way that you're effectively running into a brick wall, so running faster just makes hitting it hurt more.
Sourceforts ALWAYS ends in a draw with goodish teams. It's a restriction of building. Every SF map has an ideal build that effectively makes a team defensively invincible unless the opposing team is just that much stronger in terms of player skill. Back in the day the competitive community was playing with 20 piece limits because with more pieces games would stalemate 80% of the time. With only 20 pieces on the map you might as well not be playing a building game at all.
Swift has a point about Sourceforts but it is still true that a point for touching improves CTF score systems. You example was based on teams that are essentially the same (same skill, identical base build). TF2 has so many more variables in terms of classes and paths in maps that this system would not end up like it did in SF.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited July 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1684761:date=Jul 29 2008, 10:03 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jul 29 2008, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't see why the second one gets a "boo" seeing as it doesn't effect gameplay at all. I enjoy both changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In essence I agree with giving credit for suicides, though it is a boo because I can't suicide now to prevent burning to death after finishing off a pyro.
Though, I am dissappointed with how they decided to display it. It just looks so messy... <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Last Attacker (icon of your weapon) finished off Your Name<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesn't get across the fact that your own fire killed you, nor does it fit with ANY of the other kill messages (because of the "finished off" text).
... Also, boo to fixing nades and flame through thin walls. :'(
Suiciding has always been ridiculous, soldiers shooting the ground to leave you without a kill (and thus that extra chance of crit) just to annoy. Glad it changed.
Pyro extra health, I liked it, made the pyro not totally useless compared to trying to blow back projectiles while lagging with 10 fps in intense battles. It still wasn't used in clan matches so it's a step back. They could have just removed the overhealing boost to the extra 50 hp.
<!--quoteo(post=1684763:date=Jul 29 2008, 11:26 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Jul 29 2008, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Suiciding has always been ridiculous, soldiers shooting the ground to leave you without a kill (and thus that extra chance of crit) just to annoy. Glad it changed.
Pyro extra health, I liked it, made the pyro not totally useless compared to trying to blow back projectiles while lagging with 10 fps in intense battles. It still wasn't used in clan matches so it's a step back. They could have just removed the overhealing boost to the extra 50 hp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know about this one. On the one hand, yes, the extra health did make the pyro a touch more useful, but I found it frustrating when I, playing pyro with the classic flamethrower, went toe-to-toe with a backburner using pyro and lost. Perplexing, though I'm aware of the possibility that I might just suck very very badly.
As for suicides giving points to the last attacker, it sounds good to me. However, is there a maximum time beyond which a suicide won't give a point to an attacker? It seems silly to me that your last attacker should score a point if you accidentally fall down a cliff and die ten seconds after you were last hit.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Face it, the Backburner Pyro is frikken overpowered because its crit-hit-detection isn't working properly and it gets +50 HP. Even when this is fixed I still think the health bonus plus the long-range DoT flare will make the Pyro a bit too good. Oh and it would really be nice if the backburner model was more obvious because I need to know when a Pyro has an additional 50 HP to break down, at the moment it's virtually impossible to tell the difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am very happy they removed the health bonus. Now the Pyro actually has to make tactical decisions on his weapon setup, instead of just choosing the Backburner every time because it was the obvious choice.
---
I've gotten to grips with the Soldier 100% splashback now (unless Valve have stealthily reduced this to something short of 100%).
<b>Fixed various exploits and performance problems in CP_Badlands, CP_Well, and CP_Fastlane</b> I hope that means Scouts can't jump over the trains in CP_Well (including during the setup phase) and Engies can't build on top of the trains. I don't know what the other exploits were...
Well, the hit detect for backburner is working properly now (or crappier, point is it doesn't hit you when it should not) and they did tone down the damage at the edge of flames again.
As I said before, isn't a class truly unbalanced vs other classes if it isn't used by any serious clans in wars? Is pyro too circumstantial to be used reliably with tactics?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"I don't know about this one. On the one hand, yes, the extra health did make the pyro a touch more useful, but I found it frustrating when I, playing pyro with the classic flamethrower, went toe-to-toe with a backburner using pyro and lost. Perplexing, though I'm aware of the possibility that I might just suck very very badly."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. A aircompress pyro does often loose to a backburner thanks to extra hp but you can always retreat as aircompress. However that's pretty ridiculous, running from other pyros. I've seen some tactics, like when I had backburner and the opponent pyro shoved me back with air as soon as I got in too close or he took to much damage, then he instantly got his shotgun out and started shooting me in the air and retreat if I tried flaming him again. Too bad it didn't really work as shotgun does little over such distance.
Pyro is only ineffective in clan matches because: A) there are less people in clan matches, so spam attack doesn't work as well; there are less people to burn and less chaos to sew B) there are dedicated Medics in clan matches who know what they're doing, so the Pyro's DoT is ineffective
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2008
Even after the pyro-patch I used the default flamer as compression blast is the coolest thing yet <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Ubers? pfft blow them away or get them airborn so the sentries do the rest... Annoying demoman with stickies all over the place/near sentries? Give them a push towards them sentries...
-50 hp for the backburner? Good show, now I can tangle toe to toe with them backburners once more (hitbug exluded) intead of trying to escape all the time...
heh I can't count the times I've blown the other team's members into enemy fire or sentries or keep em airborn if I have the shotty to kill em while they have the inferior flaregun
Aah, good times that just got better <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1684781:date=Jul 30 2008, 12:48 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Jul 30 2008, 12:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Fixed various exploits and performance problems in CP_Badlands, CP_Well, and CP_Fastlane</b> I hope that means Scouts can't jump over the trains in CP_Well (including during the setup phase) and Engies can't build on top of the trains. I don't know what the other exploits were...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I goddamn hope it DOESN'T! What we need, if anything, is to prevent soldiers and demomen from jumping over (or more accurately SHOOTING over) the trains flanking the train shed during setup time. Scouts are supposed to crazily pogo everywhere, including over trains.
I'm glad they removed the 50 health on the backburner. I was hoping for that. It gets really annoying when you cannot win a fight v. another pyro 90% of the time because they have the backburner and you're using the regular flamer. I was more annoyed as soldier, however, because pyros had enough hp to survive 2 rockets (Direct hits, I believe. correct me if I'm wrong), which is usually all the time I have to fire before getting killed.
it really varies around a good bit (remember, there is damage fall off based on range even for rockets).
If you are good as a soldier then the extra HP didn't really matter as you could juggle the pyros (not saying I am good enough to do this consistently, but I could do it fairly regularly). I generally find it takes 3 hits to kill a pyro regardless.
I haven't played well yet, so I cant' say much more about it, but I am ok with the pyro changes.
It is nice to see more people using the default flamer now. I still prefer the backburner because of my play style (I like getting around behind people). However I am back to playing soldier a bit more I think, with out having the oped backburner there are fewer pyros and thus I don't play one as much (My main incentive for playing pyro is that I really hate burning).
<!--quoteo(post=1684903:date=Jul 31 2008, 01:21 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Jul 31 2008, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you are good as a soldier then the extra HP didn't really matter as you could juggle the pyros (not saying I am good enough to do this consistently, but I could do it fairly regularly). I generally find it takes 3 hits to kill a pyro regardless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Juggle them twice then finish them off with the Shotgun. It's useful to keep some rockets in your launcher instead of having to reload from empty.
Comments
ctf_well is much better, but still not something I care to play if I get to choose. Too much killing, not enough getting anywhere.
Haven't played fastlane enough to form an opinion, don't even remember what it looks like.
Speaking of stalemates, all those who are so ######ing tired of sudden death please raise your hands. o/
They should however, add something that tips the favour to the winning team. It feels like total bull###### when a team wins SD after sitting on their last CP turtling like mad. Or as for hydro, if a team has more % taken of the other CP.
TF2 should use that scoring system too.
They should however, add something that tips the favour to the winning team. It feels like total bull###### when a team wins SD after sitting on their last CP turtling like mad. Or as for hydro, if a team has more % taken of the other CP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I haven't played enough but there is no reason why a team shouldn't be able to string together some ubers and take any point. If engineers (I assume turtling engineers are what you are referring to) can defend for that long (which is actually very hard against a decent team) they deserve to win.
Fastlane is a pretty dodgy map. It isn't particularly pretty nor is it a good layout. The open spaces don't allow engineers (especially), heavies, soldiers, pyros or basically any class but sniper or scout to play well for defending/taking points.
They don't deserve to win just because they can keep everyone out, if that was the case it would be dustbowl and not hydro. It's a map of interchangeable roles, not permanent ones.
If the round ends with no victor, it goes into stalemate ("You all lose!") and the round restarts, or if the time is up it goes on to the next map.
TF2 should use that scoring system too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->SourceForts (a HL2 CTF mod with basebuilding, in case you were wondering) uses the same system. It's awesome because it rarely ends in a draw and if it does end in a draw it really does mean the game was <i>that</i> close.
It also incentivises offensive play whereas TF2 gives campers a better chance of winning (holding the last point forces Sudden Death, and in Sudden Death camping is the best method of survival).
Speaking of stalemates, all those who are so ######ing tired of sudden death please raise your hands. o/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously? There are unwritten rules in any game... and one of them is that scouts suck after the first 30 seconds in well. You're supposed to use sentries to defend in well, it's inherent to the design of the map. Well is mostly about getting around sentries with organized demo/soldier attacks... and then maby if you get enough of the sentry out the first players to die in the push can switch to scout and rush in during the empty lull. But generally, scouts shouldn't be used in regular play on that map, they aren't good enough for the defense, and thier speed is a null advantage because the map is set up in such a way that you're effectively running into a brick wall, so running faster just makes hitting it hurt more.
Sourceforts ALWAYS ends in a draw with goodish teams. It's a restriction of building. Every SF map has an ideal build that effectively makes a team defensively invincible unless the opposing team is just that much stronger in terms of player skill. Back in the day the competitive community was playing with 20 piece limits because with more pieces games would stalemate 80% of the time. With only 20 pieces on the map you might as well not be playing a building game at all.
In essence I agree with giving credit for suicides, though it is a boo because I can't suicide now to prevent burning to death after finishing off a pyro.
Though, I am dissappointed with how they decided to display it. It just looks so messy...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Last Attacker (icon of your weapon) finished off Your Name<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't get across the fact that your own fire killed you, nor does it fit with ANY of the other kill messages (because of the "finished off" text).
...
Also, boo to fixing nades and flame through thin walls. :'(
Pyro extra health, I liked it, made the pyro not totally useless compared to trying to blow back projectiles while lagging with 10 fps in intense battles. It still wasn't used in clan matches so it's a step back. They could have just removed the overhealing boost to the extra 50 hp.
Pyro extra health, I liked it, made the pyro not totally useless compared to trying to blow back projectiles while lagging with 10 fps in intense battles. It still wasn't used in clan matches so it's a step back. They could have just removed the overhealing boost to the extra 50 hp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know about this one. On the one hand, yes, the extra health did make the pyro a touch more useful, but I found it frustrating when I, playing pyro with the classic flamethrower, went toe-to-toe with a backburner using pyro and lost. Perplexing, though I'm aware of the possibility that I might just suck very very badly.
As for suicides giving points to the last attacker, it sounds good to me. However, is there a maximum time beyond which a suicide won't give a point to an attacker? It seems silly to me that your last attacker should score a point if you accidentally fall down a cliff and die ten seconds after you were last hit.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Face it, the Backburner Pyro is frikken overpowered because its crit-hit-detection isn't working properly and it gets +50 HP. Even when this is fixed I still think the health bonus plus the long-range DoT flare will make the Pyro a bit too good. Oh and it would really be nice if the backburner model was more obvious because I need to know when a Pyro has an additional 50 HP to break down, at the moment it's virtually impossible to tell the difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am very happy they removed the health bonus. Now the Pyro actually has to make tactical decisions on his weapon setup, instead of just choosing the Backburner every time because it was the obvious choice.
---
I've gotten to grips with the Soldier 100% splashback now (unless Valve have stealthily reduced this to something short of 100%).
<b>Fixed various exploits and performance problems in CP_Badlands, CP_Well, and CP_Fastlane</b>
I hope that means Scouts can't jump over the trains in CP_Well (including during the setup phase) and Engies can't build on top of the trains. I don't know what the other exploits were...
As I said before, isn't a class truly unbalanced vs other classes if it isn't used by any serious clans in wars? Is pyro too circumstantial to be used reliably with tactics?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"I don't know about this one. On the one hand, yes, the extra health did make the pyro a touch more useful, but I found it frustrating when I, playing pyro with the classic flamethrower, went toe-to-toe with a backburner using pyro and lost. Perplexing, though I'm aware of the possibility that I might just suck very very badly."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. A aircompress pyro does often loose to a backburner thanks to extra hp but you can always retreat as aircompress. However that's pretty ridiculous, running from other pyros. I've seen some tactics, like when I had backburner and the opponent pyro shoved me back with air as soon as I got in too close or he took to much damage, then he instantly got his shotgun out and started shooting me in the air and retreat if I tried flaming him again. Too bad it didn't really work as shotgun does little over such distance.
A) there are less people in clan matches, so spam attack doesn't work as well; there are less people to burn and less chaos to sew
B) there are dedicated Medics in clan matches who know what they're doing, so the Pyro's DoT is ineffective
Ubers? pfft blow them away or get them airborn so the sentries do the rest...
Annoying demoman with stickies all over the place/near sentries? Give them a push towards them sentries...
-50 hp for the backburner? Good show, now I can tangle toe to toe with them backburners once more (hitbug exluded) intead of trying to escape all the time...
heh I can't count the times I've blown the other team's members into enemy fire or sentries or keep em airborn if I have the shotty to kill em while they have the inferior flaregun
Aah, good times that just got better <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I hope that means Scouts can't jump over the trains in CP_Well (including during the setup phase) and Engies can't build on top of the trains. I don't know what the other exploits were...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I goddamn hope it DOESN'T! What we need, if anything, is to prevent soldiers and demomen from jumping over (or more accurately SHOOTING over) the trains flanking the train shed during setup time. Scouts are supposed to crazily pogo everywhere, including over trains.
On one hand it is wrong, preround is for set up, etc etc.
on the other, it is damn fun and requires 0 special knowledge to be able to do it.
I do NOT think that it should be removed post round start no matter what.
weapon damages.
it really varies around a good bit (remember, there is damage fall off based on range even for rockets).
If you are good as a soldier then the extra HP didn't really matter as you could juggle the pyros (not saying I am good enough to do this consistently, but I could do it fairly regularly). I generally find it takes 3 hits to kill a pyro regardless.
I haven't played well yet, so I cant' say much more about it, but I am ok with the pyro changes.
It is nice to see more people using the default flamer now. I still prefer the backburner because of my play style (I like getting around behind people). However I am back to playing soldier a bit more I think, with out having the oped backburner there are fewer pyros and thus I don't play one as much (My main incentive for playing pyro is that I really hate burning).