Crits are fun, and why not get lucky in a game of skill? TF2 is not chess...the comparison is quite laughable and anyone who tries to say it IS like chess has probably forgotten how to have fun in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1687110:date=Sep 2 2008, 08:07 AM:name=eediot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eediot @ Sep 2 2008, 08:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah hey that's an awesome argument you're really proving your position here in a mature and grown up way<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry, I did not mean to hurt your feelings. All in good fun.
simple fact is, if we wanted luck games we'd go to a casino. This is TF2: a sequel to a game of skill where they've just smushed in a random element out of the blue.
If rolling a 6 is your idea of fun then by all means, go roll some dice. Just don't expect me to be overjoyed when dice rolling gets into games that are about outwitting your opponent (which makes chess a good analogy, the difference being more the number on each side plus a bit of twitch than anything else).
For Eediot's information I loved Rakion to bits for the simple fact that a fight against an equal was essentially a fight to see who slipped up first. The intense pressure from knowing that one mistake will decide the fight between two highly skilled players or teams is gone when either of you can randomly get lucky. But hey, you say that bores you so whatever, right?
Gotta say though, it's sooooo much fun when you get critted three times in a row. Really! Amazing giggles! We should put more stuff in games that isn't fun to be on the recieving end of because multiplayer's all about the person doing it, not the victim, right? Why don't we just randomise the spawns so sometimes you appear in the path of the crit rockets too... wouldn't want the game to get too predictable after all.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1687117:date=Sep 2 2008, 06:50 AM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Sep 2 2008, 06:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If rolling a 6 is your idea of fun then by all means, go roll some dice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm just going to point out again, it's not just rolling a 6, or a 20. It is based on how well you have been doing. It's not just random. It's a semi-random element to help ensure that players that are doing well continue doing well. This is how they designed this game.
Clan matches with crits? Must be rage-club deluxe.
Crispy, I'm talking out of experience and I guess you are too but I never had any real problem with snipers as soldier, unless they are one of those cyborg-twitch-aim-across-the-screen-pixel-perfect ones but then you are screwed as any class regardless. At least a soldier can take a full charged hit anywhere except in the head without dying, unlike a demoman and everyone below. Quick snapshots? pfft, I've ducked behind cover or rocket jumped somewhere else by the time he tries to shoot again. I also rarely run around without any ammo, dispensers, packs and the most important source, dropped weapons, take care of that even if I spam a corner where I know a sniper is trying to aim. As they always try to charge full then peak out as little as possible you just have to shoot at the corner and the sniper will always take a hit of some kind. Obviously there are true vulnerable spots, like in the back of dustbowl 2 and 3 but they become so predictable that the alternate route will have you covered from them.
Pyros are always in your face when they try to kill you so if you cant take them down with rockets then all they need is two nearly point blank shotgun shots and they are dead. Sure, it means you are severely hurt afterwards but you are still standing and the enemy team just lost a player. If they try to fwoosch your first and/or second rocket, just switch to shotgun and you are on equal footing as the delay in flaming and aircompress allows a fast weapon switch before they can try to set you on fire. One can also switch back to rocket once they start flaming, they usually don't bother with aircompress a second time (their own fire makes it hard to see when the enemy is actually firing) and while you hurt yourself with the blast you usually win if the rocket juggles away the pyro. Obvious chance of burning to death noted here as well.
tl;dr If a pyro isn't a immediate threat, don't shoot rockets at him/her.
<!--quoteo(post=1687123:date=Sep 2 2008, 01:33 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Sep 2 2008, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quick snapshots? pfft, I've ducked behind cover or rocket jumped somewhere else by the time he tries to shoot again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I would call that a partial counter, because you're being forced to take an alternate route. The alt. route may be longer and take you further away from most of that Sniper's teammates, so it's a form of protection. Area denial is sometimes as good as a kill if it's a question of capping a point. Without that Sniper you would be heading straight for that key location and mowing down the other team as you go. No other class could force you off that path like the Sniper can.
ick, don't misunderstand me. In game I don't go ballistic every time I get crit. I certainly don't cheer or laugh either though... I just sigh and roll my eyes =P
Blu, Giving players who do well higher crit chances just seems silly. You're just widening the gap between good players and bad ones, not to mention some classes don't see much of benefit from that (like spies). I'd call that bad design personally =3 Regardless it's still random chance: weighted or not.
I'm kinda annoyed I got into this argument again. There's no real end to it as people in either camp have minds of their own and they've inevitably already made them up so it's fairly pointless outside of expressing your personal opinion and I'm sure I do more than enough of that already =P
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
Actually they put the crits business in there to help defeat stalemates and allow a team to push through and use their momentum and crits to actually win a stalemate rather then just keep it a stalemate.
Bad design choice or not, that's the primary reason it is in there.
Stalemates usually occur become both teams have one or several players of equal skill or a situation where both cancel one another out.
In one way I can see why they'd assume crits would help as they're random... this means that the dice roll might tip the favour enough to break the stalemate.
On the other hand, because both sides in a stalemate have reached equilibrium they should have roughly the same crit rates, so it's entirely feasible for the crits to even cancel out (you both get lucky one after the other or at the same time).
Crits can help before a stalemate occurs but that can just lead to steamrolling which is never fun for the losing team and the situation may not have been as dire for them without crits; they may have even had the upper hand in the end due to a delayed tactic that got demolished by the sudden emergence of a high crit streak which renders their tactical choice null.
This is just my thoughts on it though... regardless of my disagreement it doesn's stop me playing TF2 so I guess it's not really important =P
MonkfishSonic-boom-inducing buttcheeks of terrifying speed!Join Date: 2003-06-03Member: 16972Members
Crits are an essential part of TF2 and you're delusional if you think taking out an aspect of a game that was specifially deisgned to be in it and balanced accordingly will improve the enjoyability of said game. Crits are in TF2, sometimes they're good and others bad.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1687159:date=Sep 2 2008, 02:34 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Sep 2 2008, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Colour me delusional then =3<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> /me grabs the paint bucket and the Gem sized paint brush (what? I just happened to have them!)
I actually tried out a few no crit servers and actually didn't have as much fun.
It might be that I was specifically missing them, but it felt kinda off.
I've been rather busy since the start of this lil' crit debate so I've not had a chance to try a nocrit server despite wanting to. I'll give it a shot when the time comes though.
If it's not as fun then I'll happily admit I'm wrong. If I like it then I'll just have to put it down to personal tastes =3
Then you equip kritzkrieg and enjoy everyone being much less cautions about cover and mow the entire enemy team down.
Gem, spy do benefit from crits, a lot. Well, if you are me. Close range revolver does 50ish damage and with the small spread you can crit people for 120ish hp at any distance. I can't even begin to count how many times I've had more revolver then stab kills, it's so amusing when everyone underestimates you and won't even bother dodging as you eat away their hp.
Crispy, note that it only happens if I both know their skill and they're aiming at my direction. I probably have just as often run straight out and managed to dodge it randomly. I especially run straight out in danger if I see another team mate following or charging in before me. Only one of us will take the hit and the one who survives will make the sniper nervous and relocate.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1687165:date=Sep 2 2008, 02:53 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Sep 2 2008, 02:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then you equip kritzkrieg and enjoy everyone being much less cautions about cover and mow the entire enemy team down.
Gem, spy do benefit from crits, a lot. Well, if you are me. Close range revolver does 50ish damage and with the small spread you can crit people for 120ish hp at any distance. I can't even begin to count how many times I've had more revolver then stab kills, it's so amusing when everyone underestimates you and won't even bother dodging as you eat away their hp.
Crispy, note that it only happens if I both know their skill and they're aiming at my direction. I probably have just as often run straight out and managed to dodge it randomly. I especially run straight out in danger if I see another team mate following or charging in before me. Only one of us will take the hit and the one who survives will make the sniper nervous and relocate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait, krtizkrieg works on a no crit server? Very iiiinteresting.
bleh, true sven. Spies do benefit from magnum crits... I was hoping people wouldn't notice ;D
nocrit servers allow all 'conrolled' crits form what little I've heard; stuff like headshots, backstabs, axtuinguisher, etc. Kinda silly if they didn't =3
I maintain that the revolver is total bull######. If I can go spy - no cloaking, no disguising, just plink away at people with the revolver from medium range - and score in the top half of my team, something is <b>wrong.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1687173:date=Sep 2 2008, 02:39 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Sep 2 2008, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I maintain that the revolver is total bull######. If I can go spy - no cloaking, no disguising, just plink away at people with the revolver from medium range - and score in the top half of my team, something is <b>wrong.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh, no, your team just sucks. Play on a server with better players.
The spy's revolver is a great weapon, you can't deny that. It has very high accuracy and high damage; if you are a good aim, then most one-on-one situations result in a win. However, against multiple foes and being the target, the spy is not so formidable; yet shooting from the back line he can be a great (and too often overlooked) asset to a defence.
<!--quoteo(post=1687176:date=Sep 2 2008, 09:58 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Sep 2 2008, 09:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uh, no, your team just sucks. Play on a server with better players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Try to at least put some effort into offhandedly dismissing my argument. You're embarassing yourself. I know you can do better.
I don't know about that eediot... my flatmate is a major spy player and he's always in the top 2 no matter the server. Then again, he is crazily good at it... I've sat and watched him play and he can often wipe a whole team out in a single good run =o
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
<!--quoteo(post=1687154:date=Sep 2 2008, 01:23 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Sep 2 2008, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In one way I can see why they'd assume crits would help as they're random... this means that the dice roll might tip the favour enough to break the stalemate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a little note on this thought. Crits aren't just dicerolls, they're loaded dicerolls. Every kill that you make drops a few positive modifiers onto the percentile chance for a critical hit and further influenced by how frequently you are making these kills, as well as modified by so called 'aggressive playing' factors.
In a theoretical situation where both teams are equally matched for skill and defences on a CTF map and one guy on one of the teams manages a crit rocket and kills three or four of the enemy team in a single shot, his crit rate just jumped from perhaps 4% to 15%. Now those numbers are out of my ass, but regardless, the increased crit chance is intended to allow that player and his team some momentum, allowing them to push through and blow up that pesky turret and the watchful engineer and try to grab a point cap. As I understand it, this crit bonus slowly wears off, so forward momentum cannot be maintained indefinitely and the other team will claw back the ground and while doing so may develop momentum of their own.
Mind you, I'm talking about statistical cases over thousands of games. Obviously each game will play differently based primarily on individual player skill and overall teamwork, however the framework of the crits system provides a robust momentum system which rewards staying alive, punishes reckless deaths and makes stalemates breakable, which I would consider a positive.
...that's if you ignore the defenders also having the chance of getting a crit rocket of multi-death and pushing their crit rates up of course which would have a profoundly opposite effect =/
again though. a diceroll and a loaded diceroll are still both dice rolls. You could have 2+ success on a 6 sided dice and still roll three 1s in a row while the person who needed 5+ rolls a 6.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1687219:date=Sep 3 2008, 02:36 AM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Sep 3 2008, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about that eediot... my flatmate is a major spy player and he's always in the top 2 no matter the server. Then again, he is crazily good at it... I've sat and watched him play and he can often wipe a whole team out in a single good run =o<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember that every back stab gives you 2 points instead of just 1. So, even if he is on the top of the score board, he isn't necessarily contributing as much as other players.
Note: I am not running down good spys, just those ones that tout how good they are based on scores.
<!--quoteo(post=1687219:date=Sep 3 2008, 08:36 AM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Sep 3 2008, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about that eediot... my flatmate is a major spy player and he's always in the top 2 no matter the server. Then again, he is crazily good at it... I've sat and watched him play and he can often wipe a whole team out in a single good run =o<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> that or he plays on pubs last time i played on a random pub i got 50 points as spy, with the closest person having 12 the server im a regular on i cant even get into the top half unless im lucky as hell (ie no bumping into people, no pyros randomly poofing air just in case a cloaked spy is there...)
Odd thing is I didn't have any fun as 50 point spy. Maybe I'm used to the challenge. Or smart teammates, either works...
Comments
I'm sorry, I did not mean to hurt your feelings. All in good fun.
If rolling a 6 is your idea of fun then by all means, go roll some dice. Just don't expect me to be overjoyed when dice rolling gets into games that are about outwitting your opponent (which makes chess a good analogy, the difference being more the number on each side plus a bit of twitch than anything else).
For Eediot's information I loved Rakion to bits for the simple fact that a fight against an equal was essentially a fight to see who slipped up first. The intense pressure from knowing that one mistake will decide the fight between two highly skilled players or teams is gone when either of you can randomly get lucky. But hey, you say that bores you so whatever, right?
Gotta say though, it's sooooo much fun when you get critted three times in a row. Really! Amazing giggles!
We should put more stuff in games that isn't fun to be on the recieving end of because multiplayer's all about the person doing it, not the victim, right? Why don't we just randomise the spawns so sometimes you appear in the path of the crit rockets too... wouldn't want the game to get too predictable after all.
I'm just going to point out again, it's not just rolling a 6, or a 20. It is based on how well you have been doing. It's not just random. It's a semi-random element to help ensure that players that are doing well continue doing well. This is how they designed this game.
Crispy, I'm talking out of experience and I guess you are too but I never had any real problem with snipers as soldier, unless they are one of those cyborg-twitch-aim-across-the-screen-pixel-perfect ones but then you are screwed as any class regardless. At least a soldier can take a full charged hit anywhere except in the head without dying, unlike a demoman and everyone below. Quick snapshots? pfft, I've ducked behind cover or rocket jumped somewhere else by the time he tries to shoot again. I also rarely run around without any ammo, dispensers, packs and the most important source, dropped weapons, take care of that even if I spam a corner where I know a sniper is trying to aim. As they always try to charge full then peak out as little as possible you just have to shoot at the corner and the sniper will always take a hit of some kind. Obviously there are true vulnerable spots, like in the back of dustbowl 2 and 3 but they become so predictable that the alternate route will have you covered from them.
Pyros are always in your face when they try to kill you so if you cant take them down with rockets then all they need is two nearly point blank shotgun shots and they are dead. Sure, it means you are severely hurt afterwards but you are still standing and the enemy team just lost a player. If they try to fwoosch your first and/or second rocket, just switch to shotgun and you are on equal footing as the delay in flaming and aircompress allows a fast weapon switch before they can try to set you on fire. One can also switch back to rocket once they start flaming, they usually don't bother with aircompress a second time (their own fire makes it hard to see when the enemy is actually firing) and while you hurt yourself with the blast you usually win if the rocket juggles away the pyro. Obvious chance of burning to death noted here as well.
tl;dr
If a pyro isn't a immediate threat, don't shoot rockets at him/her.
Blu, Giving players who do well higher crit chances just seems silly. You're just widening the gap between good players and bad ones, not to mention some classes don't see much of benefit from that (like spies). I'd call that bad design personally =3
Regardless it's still random chance: weighted or not.
I'm kinda annoyed I got into this argument again. There's no real end to it as people in either camp have minds of their own and they've inevitably already made them up so it's fairly pointless outside of expressing your personal opinion and I'm sure I do more than enough of that already =P
Bad design choice or not, that's the primary reason it is in there.
In one way I can see why they'd assume crits would help as they're random... this means that the dice roll might tip the favour enough to break the stalemate.
On the other hand, because both sides in a stalemate have reached equilibrium they should have roughly the same crit rates, so it's entirely feasible for the crits to even cancel out (you both get lucky one after the other or at the same time).
Crits can help before a stalemate occurs but that can just lead to steamrolling which is never fun for the losing team and the situation may not have been as dire for them without crits; they may have even had the upper hand in the end due to a delayed tactic that got demolished by the sudden emergence of a high crit streak which renders their tactical choice null.
This is just my thoughts on it though... regardless of my disagreement it doesn's stop me playing TF2 so I guess it's not really important =P
And arena can still go die in a ######ing fire.
/me grabs the paint bucket and the Gem sized paint brush (what? I just happened to have them!)
I actually tried out a few no crit servers and actually didn't have as much fun.
It might be that I was specifically missing them, but it felt kinda off.
If it's not as fun then I'll happily admit I'm wrong. If I like it then I'll just have to put it down to personal tastes =3
Gem, spy do benefit from crits, a lot. Well, if you are me. Close range revolver does 50ish damage and with the small spread you can crit people for 120ish hp at any distance. I can't even begin to count how many times I've had more revolver then stab kills, it's so amusing when everyone underestimates you and won't even bother dodging as you eat away their hp.
Crispy, note that it only happens if I both know their skill and they're aiming at my direction. I probably have just as often run straight out and managed to dodge it randomly. I especially run straight out in danger if I see another team mate following or charging in before me. Only one of us will take the hit and the one who survives will make the sniper nervous and relocate.
Gem, spy do benefit from crits, a lot. Well, if you are me. Close range revolver does 50ish damage and with the small spread you can crit people for 120ish hp at any distance. I can't even begin to count how many times I've had more revolver then stab kills, it's so amusing when everyone underestimates you and won't even bother dodging as you eat away their hp.
Crispy, note that it only happens if I both know their skill and they're aiming at my direction. I probably have just as often run straight out and managed to dodge it randomly. I especially run straight out in danger if I see another team mate following or charging in before me. Only one of us will take the hit and the one who survives will make the sniper nervous and relocate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, krtizkrieg works on a no crit server? Very iiiinteresting.
nocrit servers allow all 'conrolled' crits form what little I've heard; stuff like headshots, backstabs, axtuinguisher, etc. Kinda silly if they didn't =3
Uh, no, your team just sucks. Play on a server with better players.
Try to at least put some effort into offhandedly dismissing my argument. You're embarassing yourself. I know you can do better.
Just a little note on this thought. Crits aren't just dicerolls, they're loaded dicerolls. Every kill that you make drops a few positive modifiers onto the percentile chance for a critical hit and further influenced by how frequently you are making these kills, as well as modified by so called 'aggressive playing' factors.
In a theoretical situation where both teams are equally matched for skill and defences on a CTF map and one guy on one of the teams manages a crit rocket and kills three or four of the enemy team in a single shot, his crit rate just jumped from perhaps 4% to 15%. Now those numbers are out of my ass, but regardless, the increased crit chance is intended to allow that player and his team some momentum, allowing them to push through and blow up that pesky turret and the watchful engineer and try to grab a point cap. As I understand it, this crit bonus slowly wears off, so forward momentum cannot be maintained indefinitely and the other team will claw back the ground and while doing so may develop momentum of their own.
Mind you, I'm talking about statistical cases over thousands of games. Obviously each game will play differently based primarily on individual player skill and overall teamwork, however the framework of the crits system provides a robust momentum system which rewards staying alive, punishes reckless deaths and makes stalemates breakable, which I would consider a positive.
again though. a diceroll and a loaded diceroll are still both dice rolls. You could have 2+ success on a 6 sided dice and still roll three 1s in a row while the person who needed 5+ rolls a 6.
Remember that every back stab gives you 2 points instead of just 1. So, even if he is on the top of the score board, he isn't necessarily contributing as much as other players.
Note: I am not running down good spys, just those ones that tout how good they are based on scores.
that or he plays on pubs
last time i played on a random pub i got 50 points as spy, with the closest person having 12
the server im a regular on i cant even get into the top half unless im lucky as hell (ie no bumping into people, no pyros randomly poofing air just in case a cloaked spy is there...)
Odd thing is I didn't have any fun as 50 point spy. Maybe I'm used to the challenge.
Or smart teammates, either works...