<!--quoteo(post=1686860:date=Aug 29 2008, 12:30 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Aug 29 2008, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686860"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->damnnn. that was pretty damn slick. nice. took a while to find them. but it's got the hive + glowie concept. 3 page turns further it's got the railcar + molten metal concept. and i didn't see anything else.. hmm. has some damn good art on there though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, just those 2 pieces in the Expose 6 book, but it was awesome that they gave the hive concept a full page. Also, the upcoming Spectrum art book (#15 I think) will have the alien specimen lab concept painting in it. It's nice that they considered my stuff worthwile enough to include, considering how many great artists and great art is featured in both those books.
Why remove the old stationary Sieges? My first thought when watching the videocast had been "Cool so they will be like normal sieges but mobile and with less damage"
Having both would be good for options, mobile and stationary sieges. Of course the stationary sieges would be way more powerfull while the mobile ones would be not so powerfull but mobile and because they won't be that powerfull you don't have to think about 1000 annoying things like slow speed to balance them out (sure they should be slower than marines but it's a fine line between making them too slow or too fast making them annoying/imbalanced).
This way old siege tactics could still be used and adding the mobile sieges would open up new options, anyway i really like the last design good choice.
<!--quoteo(post=1686825:date=Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe you're missing all the all the balancing opportunities, as well as the tactical dynamics.
On balance; why can't this be a Proto tech? Or even just require an AA? Right there, you can see how this would be far from the 10-second-game-over situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Sure it defeats the quick game aspect I brought up, but now its getting stupider because my whole team now has a shotgun that can impale through walls following this siege cannon with full tech'd up weapons and can now defend it easily with no challenge what so ever. The fact is, these things can move and can be defended, you can't stop them from doing harm without killing the people defending it, and as I mentioned, theres no teamwork in public games meaning this has a fat zero percent of a chance of being destroyed.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1686825:date=Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or what if a single one of these MASCs cost 50 res? Perhaps thats only for the 'base model'. For another 10 res each, you can choose to upgrade the movement speed, the armor, the deploy time or the power by 25% apiece. Maybe add an armory or obs attachment, etc. These would all significantly increase the cost and the build time, but would give a better tactical situation for the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Yeah, its like sacrificing maybe 1 and 1/2 of a heavy kit equiped with a weapon, its not even alot of resources because by the time you have an upgraded armoury/proto you have to have the resources for something nice - a mobile siege cannon with speed as fast as lightning and unbelievable armour that makes it almost indestructable! Not to mention its being covered by shotguns/heavymachineguns with WU2 upgrade.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1686825:date=Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ooh! What if there's a upgrade of some sort of air blower, which basically pushes Spores and Umbra away from the Masc by about 8 feet? This would create a gas 'safehaven' around the MASC, while letting them still affect the combat in the areas immediately surrounding the MASC.
You could have a lot of fun with designing upgrades to this thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Oh my god, please stop feeding these ideas, it makes it even more depressing trying to argue my case that there is no way these things can be balanced - they simply cannot be in a public game, speaking in the sense which you see this as being "FUN". Anyone up for ns_airblowsiege_v9820?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1686825:date=Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And on balance again, what if the MASC could have its movement disabled after a certain amount of damage? Yet another balancing tool. It could be very loud during movement as well as when its being built, giving aliens forewarning to prepare.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I can actually see this as being a possible good idea, but you're forgetting one thing, its done the damage the commander has wanted it to, all he has to do it ask for his marines to wait until it can move again, in which case shouldn't be long at all.
Yes aliens, prepare to die, heavy trains are heard and jetpacks are heard, whats the difference between these being heard? Just because theres a simple warning doesn't mean its completely defenceless. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1686825:date=Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for talking about it hitting RTs and such, what if it was primarily designed to hit Hives? When siegeing Hives, it can target at its normal speed; but when targeting smaller structures, like RTs, chambers and such, it takes a few more seconds per shot. An easy balance. You could even add in sound effects that could add a lot of ambience; basically the masc saying 'goddamnit, this target is too small, by i'm trying'. Beep BOOP.
There's a thousand ways you could make this another balanced tool in the NS arsenal, and I can see it being extremely fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Fine, scrap the idea of killing the RTs, its killing something more important, and by which point you've upgraded an armoury or upgraded a prototype your objective is the hive immediately, killing RT's would come right after, atleast, me logically speaking, thats the best way it should be done.
Still, WHY would you even CARE about the time it takes to target, its not going to die because theres a heavy train or atleast airblowing marines to stop spore with others carrying guns, of which impale walls also.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->You cannot balance this structure without nerfing it completely making it the new hand-grenade upgrade before they were made cheaper and spawned with more than ONE.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
If it's pubs that worry you, what makes you think the marines will stick together any better than without the cannon? The problem doesn't really have anything to do with the cannon.
If anyone saw a siege cannon they'd immediately follow it because they know its game over, you dont even need to ask a marine to go to the siege spot - they will go there, thats common sense.
It doesn't even matter what they have equipped, by that point someone will have a weapon and kit because you're somehow able to dish out res for this siege cannon, they will protect it with their life because they're beloved commander has given them something of worth. Even so, whats stopping an LMG from defending it? Who the hell cares, 100 LMG's.
Sorry Howdeh, but you're the posterchild of a one-sided perspective.
You're saying that aliens are so insanely disorganized on pubs that they could never counter a MASC. Well, since marines are the exact same people just on a different team this round, that would mean that they're exactly as disorganized, and would never be able to defend the MASC.
If you take the current Siege tactic, you can see almost exactly how a MASC would play out as well. The current sieges need groups of marines to get to a siege area; get a pg up; get a TF up; hold while it upgrades; build likely 3 sieges; and when defend the area for another minute or two while the sieges attack. If there are any complications, like gorges or DCs healing, aliens taking out the sieges, or the comm running out of scan, marines need even more action.
Thats a whole lot of work. And the aliens have to be on them right away to fight the siege. But you know, aliens defend against sieges ALL THE TIME. All the time.
The MASC is a very slow moving, very obvious, very time consuming and very expensive marine tactic. Its like the current siege but on steroids, since it includes (im assuming) a much higher price tag, much later game timeframe for use, much more time to fulfill (with the escort time), and much more teamwork. I say much more teamwork, because marines can't place a single PG to defend it, like in a normal siege.
And if you're all about the competitive, then why do you seem to completely and absolutely ignore the economics of all your examples? Your examples of why the MASC would be an 'invulnerable strat' seem to say that Marines have every node on the map and have had them for the whole game. Thats not how NS works. To consider the balance of these weapons, both sides need equal res. So consider more like a team of LAs where half of them have weapons, versus a team of one onos, two fades, two lerks and the rest skulks? That sounds balanced, and what the majority of balanced games end up as. If one team has more res, then they get the equipment advantage, but skill can always overcome that.
There are a million ways this weapon could be balanced, yet you seem to ignore every single one while favoring the 'infinite res, skill stacked marine team' scenario when you consider how it would play out.
Why did you bring up Hand Grenades, saying that the masc will be like them and could never be balanced? Hand grenades WERE balanced. That should be obvious. It took some playtesting to work out the kinks, but NS is a much deeper game with Hand Grenades than it was without them.
<!--quoteo(post=1687081:date=Sep 1 2008, 07:11 PM:name=Reeke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Reeke @ Sep 1 2008, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->nicely put stixNStonz, 100% agree<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I echo this sentiment, and it saved me reading the multicoloured post that came before it.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1687051:date=Sep 1 2008, 03:26 AM:name=Howd3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Howd3h @ Sep 1 2008, 03:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->You cannot balance this structure without nerfing it completely making it the new hand-grenade upgrade before they were made cheaper and spawned with more than ONE.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
howdeh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why I didnt get your point? It sounds like: moveable SIEGES are undestroyable and normal SIEGES not. Because they are better defended by only "pro-gamers" that hit 100% accurately and have perfect teamplay.
thats nice suggestion, we really should think about adding a client side variable "pro-gamer" that turns active when MASC is near
Obviously the MASC will have twice the range of a normal siege.
At this point, since we know very little about the mechanics, I would argue it will be very easy to balance and implement in a thoughtful and interesting way.
Basically, save your hate speech for until we have a better idea on not only its mechanics but the other elements as well. Trying to fit everything in the NS1 framework will end up as folly since they're hoping to re-work in some way or another about 2/3 of the game. 1/3 old, 1/3 new, 1/3 improved was the saying I believe. Someone fact check me.
It's amazing how much debate there can be about an aspect of a game that we know almost nothing about and have never played.
You'd think the shocking lack of knowledge about this game would somehow impair peoples' abilities to make snap decisions while pretending to know what they're talking about.
I'd really like to see the pubtrain effect removed, but there isn't really much to do against it. You can try to improve the overall game knowledge, but it really takes a bit of thinking and time to figure out the gameplay and most people never seem to care too much about it.
I doubt the mobile siege would be much worse than a pg network on bigger servers nowadays, this time the players at least have to move in a group instead of phasing right into it. I just hope it contributes to the tactical possibilites, creates interesting games and so on.
Hm, now to think of, maybe the mobile sieges allow the game to be more base oriented. I could see some skirmishes around the res areas in starcraft style. I'm not sure how that's going to suit the FPS part, but it might turn out to be good for the RTS part.
I look at the MASCs the way I do because with the suggestions you posted made them sound as though you can make them as stupid as possible, but yeah,
<!--quoteo(post=1686818:date=Aug 28 2008, 08:02 AM:name=Howd3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Howd3h @ Aug 28 2008, 08:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe I'm being too impatient to see what else will go into Natural-Selection 2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But there could be possible ways of making them fun, the ways you suggested didn't sound all that great to me - I don't have any great suggestions at all.
On the subject of the pro marine aim and marines have no teamwork, (simply because I stated aliens don't have teamwork - by this I meant nobody is going to group up 6 lifeforms to do a countdown to hit a specific location from different angles.) go play on a public server and tell me that once heavy kits and weapons are dropped, absolutely nobody listens to the commander.
I guess my negativity towards these MASCs is due to the fact that there is a possibilty of being able to shotgun rush a hive through a wall, and then discovering a thread that contains a MASC with a tonne of ideas i'm not fond of really does put me off. But I guess I'll have to wait and see...
Well, every one of those ideas can be put in the game in a balanced way. If a base MASC cost 50 res, each upgrade could cost an extra 10, with a 40 second tech time. Heck, each additional upgrade could double the res and time costs. And/or slow it down. Etc.
The MASC concept is in its infancy, and it could simply be a balanced mid-to-late game option, or it could be given the upgrade options to become an extremely expensive superunit. In such a case, the comm would be losing out on TONS of build time, as well as forking out res that would otherwise suit up multiple HA. A balancing act that I'd love to learn as a comm.
Personally, I would love to see it have multiple upgrade options, where multiple ups come with exponential costs, and you can never have them all (very similar in concept to the aliens' upgrades). That way, comms could turn the MASC into their own style of unit, or perhaps better suit them for the current tactical situation, or just leave them as the base model.
I hope it will be commander controlled, letting him get into the game during the later stages when in NS1 he'd be responding to "Medpack!" requests or demands for shotty's.
<!--quoteo(post=1686947:date=Aug 30 2008, 08:29 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Aug 30 2008, 08:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686947"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where did you see them say they were removing the old sieges?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well in the news it sounds like it's the "new siege" and their are talking about "biggest change" you can't change something complelty new so to me this reads like they gonna change the old sieges to the new mobile ones. Maybe some dev could clear that one up? ^^
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In this videocast, Cory and I discuss the look of the new Siege Cannons in NS2. <b>The biggest change</b> is that they are now mobile and can be moved around the map by the Commander<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh and i got the perfect solution for public marine teams not protecting the mobile siege.. What has every public marine team in common? They hump the armory like it's jessica albas backend So the perfect solution: Make the mobile siege hand out ammo <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
This way it would be allways defended <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1687204:date=Sep 3 2008, 02:27 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Sep 3 2008, 02:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's amazing how much debate there can be about an aspect of a game that we know almost nothing about and have never played.
You'd think the shocking lack of knowledge about this game would somehow impair peoples' abilities to make snap decisions while pretending to know what they're talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1686036:date=Aug 15 2008, 07:09 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 15 2008, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and we don't even know for sure if the player will in fact be able to ride on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can 100% guarantee you that I will find a way to ride it no matter what.
<!--quoteo(post=1687616:date=Sep 8 2008, 07:48 PM:name=tekproxy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tekproxy @ Sep 8 2008, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can 100% guarantee you that I will find a way to ride it no matter what.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure it could be likened to the cart in the TF2 push/convoy maps. You're not SUPPOSED to stand on it, but we always find a way to get our hitbox on top every once in a while.
You really like this thread, don't you spellman. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1687206:date=Sep 2 2008, 11:38 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Sep 2 2008, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd really like to see the pubtrain effect removed, but there isn't really much to do against it. You can try to improve the overall game knowledge, but it really takes a bit of thinking and time to figure out the gameplay and most people never seem to care too much about it.
I doubt the mobile siege would be much worse than a pg network on bigger servers nowadays, this time the players at least have to move in a group instead of phasing right into it. I just hope it contributes to the tactical possibilites, creates interesting games and so on.
Hm, now to think of, maybe the mobile sieges allow the game to be more base oriented. I could see some skirmishes around the res areas in starcraft style. I'm not sure how that's going to suit the FPS part, but it might turn out to be good for the RTS part.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It does change the gameplay significantly with the squad respawn. It basically makes every siege payload style.
I like ninja-ing pg's, but I can see how this gameplay style would be a desirable shift. <!--quoteo(post=1687764:date=Sep 10 2008, 02:40 PM:name=lio6)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lio6 @ Sep 10 2008, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Great ! Great !!
courage has all the team,, it's awesome<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What he said.
<!--quoteo(post=1688346:date=Sep 17 2008, 06:51 PM:name=TaylorFactor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TaylorFactor @ Sep 17 2008, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1688346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So when are we going to get a new podcast? its been over a month...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" /> new pod cast i need a new pod come on make it a long one PLEASE
Comments
nice. took a while to find them. but it's got the hive + glowie concept. 3 page turns further it's got the railcar + molten metal concept. and i didn't see anything else.. hmm.
has some damn good art on there though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, just those 2 pieces in the Expose 6 book, but it was awesome that they gave the hive concept a full page. Also, the upcoming Spectrum art book (#15 I think) will have the alien specimen lab concept painting in it. It's nice that they considered my stuff worthwile enough to include, considering how many great artists and great art is featured in both those books.
<!--quoteo(post=1686896:date=Aug 29 2008, 02:53 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Aug 29 2008, 02:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, grats on making Exposé! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks Crispy. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
My first thought when watching the videocast had been "Cool so they will be like normal sieges but mobile and with less damage"
Having both would be good for options, mobile and stationary sieges. Of course the stationary sieges would be way more powerfull while the mobile ones would be not so powerfull but mobile and because they won't be that powerfull you don't have to think about 1000 annoying things like slow speed to balance them out (sure they should be slower than marines but it's a fine line between making them too slow or too fast making them annoying/imbalanced).
This way old siege tactics could still be used and adding the mobile sieges would open up new options, anyway i really like the last design good choice.
On balance; why can't this be a Proto tech? Or even just require an AA? Right there, you can see how this would be far from the 10-second-game-over situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Sure it defeats the quick game aspect I brought up, but now its getting stupider because my whole team now has a shotgun that can impale through walls following this siege cannon with full tech'd up weapons and can now defend it easily with no challenge what so ever. The fact is, these things can move and can be defended, you can't stop them from doing harm without killing the people defending it, and as I mentioned, theres no teamwork in public games meaning this has a fat zero percent of a chance of being destroyed.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1686825:date=Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or what if a single one of these MASCs cost 50 res? Perhaps thats only for the 'base model'. For another 10 res each, you can choose to upgrade the movement speed, the armor, the deploy time or the power by 25% apiece. Maybe add an armory or obs attachment, etc. These would all significantly increase the cost and the build time, but would give a better tactical situation for the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Yeah, its like sacrificing maybe 1 and 1/2 of a heavy kit equiped with a weapon, its not even alot of resources because by the time you have an upgraded armoury/proto you have to have the resources for something nice - a mobile siege cannon with speed as fast as lightning and unbelievable armour that makes it almost indestructable! Not to mention its being covered by shotguns/heavymachineguns with WU2 upgrade.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1686825:date=Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ooh! What if there's a upgrade of some sort of air blower, which basically pushes Spores and Umbra away from the Masc by about 8 feet? This would create a gas 'safehaven' around the MASC, while letting them still affect the combat in the areas immediately surrounding the MASC.
You could have a lot of fun with designing upgrades to this thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Oh my god, please stop feeding these ideas, it makes it even more depressing trying to argue my case that there is no way these things can be balanced - they simply cannot be in a public game, speaking in the sense which you see this as being "FUN". Anyone up for ns_airblowsiege_v9820?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1686825:date=Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And on balance again, what if the MASC could have its movement disabled after a certain amount of damage? Yet another balancing tool. It could be very loud during movement as well as when its being built, giving aliens forewarning to prepare.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I can actually see this as being a possible good idea, but you're forgetting one thing, its done the damage the commander has wanted it to, all he has to do it ask for his marines to wait until it can move again, in which case shouldn't be long at all.
Yes aliens, prepare to die, heavy trains are heard and jetpacks are heard, whats the difference between these being heard? Just because theres a simple warning doesn't mean its completely defenceless.
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1686825:date=Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Aug 28 2008, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for talking about it hitting RTs and such, what if it was primarily designed to hit Hives? When siegeing Hives, it can target at its normal speed; but when targeting smaller structures, like RTs, chambers and such, it takes a few more seconds per shot. An easy balance. You could even add in sound effects that could add a lot of ambience; basically the masc saying 'goddamnit, this target is too small, by i'm trying'. Beep BOOP.
There's a thousand ways you could make this another balanced tool in the NS arsenal, and I can see it being extremely fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Fine, scrap the idea of killing the RTs, its killing something more important, and by which point you've upgraded an armoury or upgraded a prototype your objective is the hive immediately, killing RT's would come right after, atleast, me logically speaking, thats the best way it should be done.
Still, WHY would you even CARE about the time it takes to target, its not going to die because theres a heavy train or atleast airblowing marines to stop spore with others carrying guns, of which impale walls also.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->You cannot balance this structure without nerfing it completely making it the new hand-grenade upgrade before they were made cheaper and spawned with more than ONE.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
howdeh.
You're saying that aliens are so insanely disorganized on pubs that they could never counter a MASC. Well, since marines are the exact same people just on a different team this round, that would mean that they're exactly as disorganized, and would never be able to defend the MASC.
If you take the current Siege tactic, you can see almost exactly how a MASC would play out as well. The current sieges need groups of marines to get to a siege area; get a pg up; get a TF up; hold while it upgrades; build likely 3 sieges; and when defend the area for another minute or two while the sieges attack. If there are any complications, like gorges or DCs healing, aliens taking out the sieges, or the comm running out of scan, marines need even more action.
Thats a whole lot of work. And the aliens have to be on them right away to fight the siege. But you know, aliens defend against sieges ALL THE TIME. All the time.
The MASC is a very slow moving, very obvious, very time consuming and very expensive marine tactic. Its like the current siege but on steroids, since it includes (im assuming) a much higher price tag, much later game timeframe for use, much more time to fulfill (with the escort time), and much more teamwork. I say much more teamwork, because marines can't place a single PG to defend it, like in a normal siege.
And if you're all about the competitive, then why do you seem to completely and absolutely ignore the economics of all your examples? Your examples of why the MASC would be an 'invulnerable strat' seem to say that Marines have every node on the map and have had them for the whole game. Thats not how NS works. To consider the balance of these weapons, both sides need equal res. So consider more like a team of LAs where half of them have weapons, versus a team of one onos, two fades, two lerks and the rest skulks? That sounds balanced, and what the majority of balanced games end up as. If one team has more res, then they get the equipment advantage, but skill can always overcome that.
There are a million ways this weapon could be balanced, yet you seem to ignore every single one while favoring the 'infinite res, skill stacked marine team' scenario when you consider how it would play out.
Why did you bring up Hand Grenades, saying that the masc will be like them and could never be balanced? Hand grenades WERE balanced. That should be obvious. It took some playtesting to work out the kinks, but NS is a much deeper game with Hand Grenades than it was without them.
howdeh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why I didnt get your point? It sounds like: moveable SIEGES are undestroyable and normal SIEGES not. Because they are better defended by only "pro-gamers" that hit 100% accurately and have perfect teamplay.
thats nice suggestion, we really should think about adding a client side variable "pro-gamer" that turns active when MASC is near
At this point, since we know very little about the mechanics, I would argue it will be very easy to balance and implement in a thoughtful and interesting way.
Basically, save your hate speech for until we have a better idea on not only its mechanics but the other elements as well. Trying to fit everything in the NS1 framework will end up as folly since they're hoping to re-work in some way or another about 2/3 of the game. 1/3 old, 1/3 new, 1/3 improved was the saying I believe. Someone fact check me.
You'd think the shocking lack of knowledge about this game would somehow impair peoples' abilities to make snap decisions while pretending to know what they're talking about.
I doubt the mobile siege would be much worse than a pg network on bigger servers nowadays, this time the players at least have to move in a group instead of phasing right into it. I just hope it contributes to the tactical possibilites, creates interesting games and so on.
Hm, now to think of, maybe the mobile sieges allow the game to be more base oriented. I could see some skirmishes around the res areas in starcraft style. I'm not sure how that's going to suit the FPS part, but it might turn out to be good for the RTS part.
<!--quoteo(post=1686818:date=Aug 28 2008, 08:02 AM:name=Howd3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Howd3h @ Aug 28 2008, 08:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1686818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe I'm being too impatient to see what else will go into Natural-Selection 2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But there could be possible ways of making them fun, the ways you suggested didn't sound all that great to me - I don't have any great suggestions at all.
On the subject of the pro marine aim and marines have no teamwork, (simply because I stated aliens don't have teamwork - by this I meant nobody is going to group up 6 lifeforms to do a countdown to hit a specific location from different angles.) go play on a public server and tell me that once heavy kits and weapons are dropped, absolutely nobody listens to the commander.
I guess my negativity towards these MASCs is due to the fact that there is a possibilty of being able to shotgun rush a hive through a wall, and then discovering a thread that contains a MASC with a tonne of ideas i'm not fond of really does put me off. But I guess I'll have to wait and see...
The MASC concept is in its infancy, and it could simply be a balanced mid-to-late game option, or it could be given the upgrade options to become an extremely expensive superunit. In such a case, the comm would be losing out on TONS of build time, as well as forking out res that would otherwise suit up multiple HA. A balancing act that I'd love to learn as a comm.
Personally, I would love to see it have multiple upgrade options, where multiple ups come with exponential costs, and you can never have them all (very similar in concept to the aliens' upgrades). That way, comms could turn the MASC into their own style of unit, or perhaps better suit them for the current tactical situation, or just leave them as the base model.
We'll see what the devs decide on.
I hope it will be commander controlled, letting him get into the game during the later stages when in NS1 he'd be responding to "Medpack!" requests or demands for shotty's.
And plus it simply looks amazing.
OK, I'll stop trolling off-topic.
Well in the news it sounds like it's the "new siege" and their are talking about "biggest change" you can't change something complelty new so to me this reads like they gonna change the old sieges to the new mobile ones. Maybe some dev could clear that one up? ^^
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In this videocast, Cory and I discuss the look of the new Siege Cannons in NS2. <b>The biggest change</b> is that they are now mobile and can be moved around the map by the Commander<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh and i got the perfect solution for public marine teams not protecting the mobile siege..
What has every public marine team in common? They hump the armory like it's jessica albas backend
So the perfect solution: Make the mobile siege hand out ammo <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
This way it would be allways defended <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
You'd think the shocking lack of knowledge about this game would somehow impair peoples' abilities to make snap decisions while pretending to know what they're talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can 100% guarantee you that I will find a way to ride it no matter what.
I'm sure it could be likened to the cart in the TF2 push/convoy maps. You're not SUPPOSED to stand on it, but we always find a way to get our hitbox on top every once in a while.
Or totem poling in CS. Those were hilarious.
courage has all the team,, it's awesome
I doubt the mobile siege would be much worse than a pg network on bigger servers nowadays, this time the players at least have to move in a group instead of phasing right into it. I just hope it contributes to the tactical possibilites, creates interesting games and so on.
Hm, now to think of, maybe the mobile sieges allow the game to be more base oriented. I could see some skirmishes around the res areas in starcraft style. I'm not sure how that's going to suit the FPS part, but it might turn out to be good for the RTS part.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does change the gameplay significantly with the squad respawn. It basically makes every siege payload style.
I like ninja-ing pg's, but I can see how this gameplay style would be a desirable shift.
<!--quoteo(post=1687764:date=Sep 10 2008, 02:40 PM:name=lio6)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lio6 @ Sep 10 2008, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1687764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Great ! Great !!
courage has all the team,, it's awesome<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What he said.
I agree ! :]