pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited December 2008
Why bother to change the health display system, when the other system will be only <b>as good</b> and not better. One could also remove the ammo counter, so you better count those 125/250 hmg bullets or it's gonna be "Ohnoes a fade: shoot, click, click dead"
It's going to take away a player's ability to weigh the risks. For a veteran, that's either going to be something completely embraced or completely rejected. Embraced because a good player knows that any disadvantage you have, your opponent has it as well which if you're smart, it means you can have a leg up on a player who doesn't want to play as aggressively if they didn't know how much health they had left.
Rejected because if you're the type of player which counts on being able to weigh the risks in every manner down to the number of bullets left in your gun, you want to be able to have a good idea if you can win that battle or if you should run. Often you don't need to know your health status to know this, but sometimes you do because you're evenly matched with your opponent on all other accounts.
My view is that it could be a nice addition to natural selection, but it has to be done right! A player should receive frequent red flashes when wounded and walking (walking on a bad leg for example), though the intensity would depend on how wounded you are and you also couldn't go overboard or your screen will be full of red.
Furthermore, perhaps you'd bleed on the floor if seriously wounded (aka, get a med pack if you don't want to die in the next bite). Perhaps you'd even make it so that the marine walks slower or in a more rhythmic sense (limping), though I think the slow rate shouldn't be exaggerated.. 20% slower speed tops, as you'd still want to keep up with the action.
If done right, I think it'd would increase immersion into the game. The number of bullets can be seen on the gun model. The commander orders can even be seen as a hud-display, but that's different. That's not a 'hud shown because we're doing the first person shooter' thing but a technology available to the commander to insert information for the player. Before you start calling it the same thing, the commander cannot tell you a percentage from 1 to 100 on your health status (nor could you yourself in real life for that matter).
Natural selection is not a horror game, but it could be presented in that fashion. Who ever said that when you play a multiplayer game that you have to see a handle above the guy's head and a message saying when you killed him (or when he kills you)? It could be presented much more like you're a marine fighting sentient aliens than a deathmatch. That is definitely worth the hudless display. You guys might disagree with me here, but immersion style beats deathmatch style any day of the week. I'm sure if they were out to do deathmatch style, they would have already said they'd do a Combat Natural Selection 2, but it seems to me they're out to produce something innovative and radically different than your typical arena-style "I pwn u" game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So many posts on these forums are depressing to read because they are nothing more than cautious conservatism where people see changes and assume the worse. I relish the opportunity to be immersed in yet another new style of play. NS brought so many new aspects to the FPS game for me, especially the third dimension of the playing field and I'll be dissapointed with NS2 if it doesn't ramp up the immersion another notch. So I say bravo to the devs if they are thinking about ideas like this. Imagine an NS2 where it was intuitive from your experience how much health both you and your enemy had left so you could really start to observe the changes in a battle and take advantage of them at the right time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess my worries are a little about the way the dev team has presented its new NS2 designs. So far everything has been heavily simplified while there hasn't been a single mention about the features that receive additional depth and thinking. DI and alien comm are going to add some new features, but still it has been a lot of simplifying for nothing solid on the depth side.
Counting HPs on NS1 logic without the numbers is next to impossible. Was it 3 or 4 ticks of spore? Did I get friendly fire there? How many paras? Did I get welded for 2 or 3 seconds?
Basically I just feel losing the numbers is another little trick lost for nothing. It sure can work fine, but still I can't see why this is the way they choose to do it.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2008
When changing something that works, the question should be "why is this better?". Of course the definition of what is "better" is subjective, and I'm afraid we're faced with a polarized debate where those who want more arcadey gameplay (generally speaking the competitive crowd) stand on one side and those who want "cool stuff" (generally speaking the casual crowd) stand on the other. I could give dozens of loaded arguements about why numbers give better gameplay than no-numbers, but it wouldn't actually serve any purpose as only those with the same values as me would agree. These arguements would have no persuasive power over the other side.
However, one can debate what gives NS2 the biggest likelyhood of commercial success. In that arguement, one has to take into account the fact that almost all successful past FPS games have used numbers in their HUD. Gamers with experience in these games will instantly get a feeling that something isn't right, and might even decide to not even give NS2 a real chance because "it's weird". On the other hand, NS is an FPS/RTS hybrid, with fairly unique gameplay elements and therefore might not be that negatively affected by this. It might even give the game more mainstream appeal, or appeal to different gamer groups than it otherwise would.
Which side's arguements weigh the most in the end? I honestly can't say, but no numbers is certainly a gutsy, risky, move. Personally this unfortunately corresponds with everything else that has been released about NS2 so far, which points to a game with a lot less competitive appeal than NS. For someone who's played and loved -- as much as one can love a game -- NS competitively for five years this is both disappointing and saddening. Not so much because the game is being geared towards the casual crowd, this much has been apparent for a long time, but because it seems like the competitive side of the game is being completely ignored alltogether. So far there's been plenty of "good news" for casual players, and none for competitive players. One can't help but feel... unloved.
<!--quoteo(post=1695220:date=Dec 5 2008, 02:51 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Dec 5 2008, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll be dissapointed with NS2 if it doesn't ramp up the immersion another notch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Immersion is a horrible industry catch phrase, that really needs to die. It's even worse than the "epic" hysteria in NS. I'm not saying that a game shouldn't strive towards further pulling players into the game, but the phrase immersion when used in relation to games really holds little to no value anymore. This isn't really related to the topic though, but I needed to get that off my chest!
As I've been into this kind of arguments way too many times before, I won't bother even replying with more elaborative message. These discussions convert very easily to flamewars.
I think the idea of removing HUD comes from the basic ideology of making NS2 an <b>"atmospheric"</b> game. While I don't disagree that an atmospheric game can be a great game, especially a singleplayer-game, NS is an competitive game and the <b>reason</b> why ENSL still exists 6 years after the game release, is because NS is so awesome for competitive games.
Mark my words. Atmospheric and content-based games work miracles for short period of times, but the more you make the game atmospheric, shorter the game scene and gamepaly value will last (like Final Fantasies or movies generally, great for one-time-pleasure). Competitive games like NS, Starcraft, Counter Strike, DoD, CoD etc. have very little content compared to their huge popularity many years after release.
More than responding to the HUD-question, I'm sending this message more as a general response to new possible features of NS2.
Anyway - I don't want to be conservative but I just don't hope another 1.04.
<!--quoteo(post=1695239:date=Dec 5 2008, 01:38 PM:name=KungFuDiscoMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Dec 5 2008, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it doesn't work, it'll get caught in playtesting. It is a bit silly to get so worked up about ideas they're testing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It may not though. Alot of the playtesters may be the more "atmospheric" loving players and will be like "oh yay blood and flashes and no hud... yay so atmospheric".
I think Fana summed it up pretty clearly to be honest with a very touching post.
There is nothing wrong with the numbered HUD system. It's a classic FPS style.
And yes I am worried about how the devs implement this. Remember it took 4 years to get NS to a balanced state, 4 years with a vets and PT system. The more changes the NS team do to NS as a port to NS2, the more things which can imbalance the game and take valued time to fix.
Visual fluff adds to that one time "wow" factor. After that goes away you are left with damaged gameplay due to focus on realism and graphical tricks. If NS is going to be primarily a multiplayer game, visual fluff is to be kept to an operating minimum and the developers would be wise to make sure that no visual/realism (yes, ATMOSPHERIC) mechanic gets in the way of gameplay. (strategy in this case)
But yea, I've thought about it and it'd create a new mechanic where players would have to keep track of their health manually if they want to have an advantage. Armor should be shown as a number though, it'd be a pain to keep track of both considering how hard armor is to replace.
<!--quoteo(post=1695239:date=Dec 5 2008, 11:38 AM:name=KungFuDiscoMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Dec 5 2008, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it doesn't work, it'll get caught in playtesting. It is a bit silly to get so worked up about ideas they're testing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1695239:date=Dec 5 2008, 06:38 PM:name=KungFuDiscoMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Dec 5 2008, 06:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it doesn't work, it'll get caught in playtesting. It is a bit silly to get so worked up about ideas they're testing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If it doesn't work for whom? The whole direction for NS2 has been this, and so far I haven't liked it that much. The smaller maps, no minimap, minimalistic HUD. I think they've made a few big decisions on how NS2 is going to differ from the first one.
Some changes I can see as reasonable improvements, but I'm going to miss some of the elements big time, that's for sure. I just hope they've got some really amazing plans for the rest of the game, because understanding and manipulating the gameplay flow on the map has been one of the most interesting features in NS for me.
<!--quoteo(post=1695196:date=Dec 5 2008, 10:48 AM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Dec 5 2008, 10:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't get through the first page of sentimental bull###### whining, but here:
If you guys sit around contemplating all the different combinations of attacks you can take with your current Health and armor points, then you deserve to fackin die. how about instead of "Taking this hit and that hit" you AVOID being hit altogether? if you die, you die.... but you TRIED to avoid it, you didn't run in thinking "its OK I can take one hit"
Just stop the crap, its a NEW game with NEW features, if you still want to play NS1, there's nobody stopping you.
AND IF YOU WERNT SO NAIVE OR LAZY, YOU WOULD CONSIDER STARTING TO LEARN LUA SO YOU CAN MAKE VANILLA NS IN THE NEW ENGINE AND STOP WHINING SO WE DON'T HAVE TO PLAY WITH YOU IN THIS FRESH NEW GAME<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol i just run in and dont care how much health i have because i am a faaglette noobie who can code lua to a sh!t level but not good enough to get a job so i troll forums lolz.
I agree with Gibbz. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1695253:date=Dec 5 2008, 02:45 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Dec 5 2008, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it doesn't work for whom? The whole direction for NS2 has been this, and so far I haven't liked it that much. The smaller maps, no minimap, minimalistic HUD. I think they've made a few big decisions on how NS2 is going to differ from the first one.
Some changes I can see as reasonable improvements, but I'm going to miss some of the elements big time, that's for sure. I just hope they've got some really amazing plans for the rest of the game, because understanding and manipulating the gameplay flow on the map has been one of the most interesting features in NS for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea I agree with Bacillus, I mean NS always has been about calculations and understand the res system and the game mechanics. I feel some of the mechanics are being changed too much to the extent competetive play, and even general play may be ruined.
Sure dynamic infestion and mobile sieges are kinda fine... I mean at the end of the day, if balanced, they will be a nice new feature for players to look into, but all these changes to the minimaps, hugs and such... sounds crazy.
I'm not sure I understand the point of this decision. It's not an immersion decision because marines have overlay displays integrated into their helmets. You can have a number (essentially health) be the armor integrity. Because honestly, do we need health AND armor? If we want to talk simplifying unecessary complexities, this is one. Almost all of the mechanics can be similarly done with just one. (eg. welding could bring it back to only 70% or something; though I like the idea of like losing 10% armor integrity on every weld -- we're not lacking in ideas) Enough is being changed that losing a small mechanic here or there isn't going to hurt the gameplay. I mean, realistically as far as immersion goes, if a bite gets through your armor, you're incapacitated if not dead. Thus armor integrity at 0 essentially means death. Even if we had two, health could be portrayed on the display using vital signs. So it can't be immersion, right? (you have to be careful, anyway, not to let immersion take you too far down the realism path, which can impede on good multiplayer gameplay)
Is it simplicity? Obscurity isn't synonymous with simplicity, is it? Information on the hud is a key element to what makes the marines different, imo, in terms of both gameplay and atmosphere. Remove hud elements on the kharaa side but keep them on the marine side.
I didn't feel like reading all of the posts in one sitting, but I can say this:
Even if there aren't numbers immediately visible, that doesn't mean they aren't there. Ever play Deadspace?? They used BARS! No way that could work, right?! Wrong. When you have bars, it's even easier to see how many hits you can take. If you have 5/10 bars, and you know para takes 1 bar, and a bite takes 2 bars, how many bites could you take with 2 para's? BAM! Instantly available, and WAY more user friendly with it's lower numbers (1-10 instead of 1-100). Bars also change colors in a VERY noticeable way. That means even when you aren't mr. pro and keep track of bites, you get an instant notice of impending death with a simple change of color. Blue > red is a VERY drastic and VERY noticeable change.
So before you crap yourself because you don't have your instant 1-100 numbers on your screen, think about the alternatives the creators could implement. No numbers doesn't mean you're going to be totally clueless and have no information provided, it simply means there are not NUMBERS. Just no numbers isn't scary, in fact, numbers are scarier for a new player because every game incorporates them differently.
Vyshus makes very good points. If there is a damage system which does not have many small increments (70-100s), then a non-numerical hud is no problem. In other words, if the damage is in a small integer format with 20 chunks of a life bar sectioned in sets of 4 for readability for instance, then you lose no information with a simple hud. In fact it becomes easier to calculate how many hits of varied type that you can take.
In general, the ideal health divisibility depends on the smallest amount of damage you can take, so obviously the benefits of this system are diminished if Armor is still handled as it was in NS1. With onos carapace armor diminishing weld damage down to less than 1 hp, it becomes a source of information loss to remove the numeric hud. Hey, in fact, we should complain that all numerical measures in NS1 are not multiplied by 10 and display the next significant figure.
So, either the hud is changed only or the damage system is changed and the hud accompanies it. Either way I trust the devs... as long as they don't borrow TOO much from Deadspace, heh.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry but a new no-HUD system will not ADD to gameplay. It can only really take away from gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is blindly dismissive. I'm with Puzl on this. My instinct tells me it's a bad idea, but my head tells me there are ways to add depth to a no-numbers HUD replacement.
I'll throw up an example for you, even if I don't think it would specifically work well in NS, it is an alternative to a numbers HUD that would add depth.
<b>No-numbers Marine HUD:</b> You have a picture of your suit in the bottom left of the screen. The suit is divided up into left arm, right arm, head, and legs. Each of these areas goes from green to red via yellow in multiple stages of colour according to percentiles. The purest red in any area of the suit HUD means one hit from anything will kill you. Dark orange might mean you can take a tick or two of spore, but you won't survive a Skulk hit. Spore as an AoE attack means all areas of your suit are affected equally. Medpacks also heal all areas equally, so your weak side will still stay weak until all other zones are at 100% and med rejuvenation goes completely onto that one area.
Here's where the depth is: if you know on your right side that you will die to a Skulk hit, you must try to take the Skulk on from the right to present your 'healthier' side to him. Or must you? Herein there is a situation where you can bluff a Skulk to try to attack you on what he thinks is your weak side but you could be feigning weakness on that side just to survive an extra bite.
Same thinking goes for legs, if you are weak there, you need to get below your target and get them to attack you from above if possible. This could be drawing fire from a Lerk instead of engaging Skulks.
I'll admit this system is far from perfect, and I wouldn't want to see it in NS specifically. But if you were to place it in a different game it might be something that could give equal or increased elements of depth but still be a no-numbers solution. The point is some of the people in this thread refuse to think outside the box. As much as I can't see a good reason to change the HUD, I am also at least open to alternative ways of thinking if the end effect is comparable. Until we know more it's only worth expressing misgivings, but you cannot for certain say that this is automatically a bad design decision without seeing the end result.
<!--quoteo(post=1695366:date=Dec 6 2008, 06:25 PM:name=Zamma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zamma @ Dec 6 2008, 06:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It still doesn't add to GAMEPLAY Crispy... just adds "immersion".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If you're referring to the concept above, then it's clearly not an 'immersive' suggestion. Immersive would be disabling whichever limb went into red, VATS-style.
I explained how it added an element of depth to the gameplay. Alternate depth, but depth nonetheless. ---
If you're talking about the NS concept, we don't know specifically what it is other than it's a no-numbers health indicator, so arguing that an unknown quantity adds/detracts from gameplay is a pointless endeavour.
<!--quoteo(post=1695353:date=Dec 6 2008, 12:41 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Dec 6 2008, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is blindly dismissive. I'm with Puzl on this. My instinct tells me it's a bad idea, but my head tells me there are ways to add depth to a no-numbers HUD replacement.
I'll throw up an example for you, even if I don't think it would specifically work well in NS, it is an alternative to a numbers HUD that would add depth.
<b>No-numbers Marine HUD:</b> You have a picture of your suit in the bottom left of the screen. The suit is divided up into left arm, right arm, head, and legs. Each of these areas goes from green to red via yellow in multiple stages of colour according to percentiles. The purest red in any area of the suit HUD means one hit from anything will kill you. Dark orange might mean you can take a tick or two of spore, but you won't survive a Skulk hit. Spore as an AoE attack means all areas of your suit are affected equally. Medpacks also heal all areas equally, so your weak side will still stay weak until all other zones are at 100% and med rejuvenation goes completely onto that one area.
Here's where the depth is: if you know on your right side that you will die to a Skulk hit, you must try to take the Skulk on from the right to present your 'healthier' side to him. Herein there is a situation where you can bluff a Skulk to try to attack you on what he thinks is your weak side but you could be feigning weakness on that side just to survive an extra bite.
Same thinking goes for legs, if you are weak there, you need to get below your target and get them to attack you from above if possible. This could be drawing fire from a Lerk instead of engaging Skulks.
I'll admit this system is far from perfect, and I wouldn't want to see it in NS specifically. But if you were to place it in a different game it might be something that could give equal or increased elements of depth but still be a no-numbers solution. The point is some of the people in this thread refuse to think outside the box. As much as I can't see a good reason to change the HUD, I am also at least open to alternative ways of thinking if the end effect is comparable. Until we know more it's only worth expressing misgivings, but you cannot for certain say that this is automatically a bad design decision without seeing the end result.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While this system does appear to be more immersive and strategic, you're now throwing in hit box registration, and a damage system that could also lead to some different game play(good or bad, I don't like to judge until I feel the idea and concept implemented into game play) But the idea of a marine taking a hit on his right, purposefully turning to take a hit on his left, and then making himself survive an extra bite per se could be aggravating to some alien players. As this kind of creates a more coordinated side of skilled marine movement, especially when you're in a close fight with whatever.
But now we're taking a HUD discussion more into game-play mechanics, so, anywho.. my only point is really I would be interested to see if this would be effective got pub and/or competitive gameplay. Or that it could be LUA'd into a custom game perhaps?
One of the biggest reasons I don't post prolifically on these forums, even though I check and surf it quickly 3-4 times a day is I'm tired of seeing everyone babble and argue on and on and on about game-play theory and how one thing will ruin the game etc, etc.
Instead of arguing about any information that is being released by the dev team and the community, why not support the idea and try to improve on each one, and come to conclusions when the game is actually released and playable enough to test certain scenarios and game-play settings.
Everyone wants to kill off any idea that isn't remotely close to their "ideal" of NS2, the ideas never get a chance to actually be tested. Its like a group of philosophers all discrediting each-other.
<!--quoteo(post=1695353:date=Dec 6 2008, 05:41 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Dec 6 2008, 05:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is blindly dismissive. I'm with Puzl on this. My instinct tells me it's a bad idea, but my head tells me there are ways to add depth to a no-numbers HUD replacement.
I'll throw up an example for you, even if I don't think it would specifically work well in NS, it is an alternative to a numbers HUD that would add depth.
<b>No-numbers Marine HUD:</b> You have a picture of your suit in the bottom left of the screen. The suit is divided up into left arm, right arm, head, and legs. Each of these areas goes from green to red via yellow in multiple stages of colour according to percentiles. The purest red in any area of the suit HUD means one hit from anything will kill you. Dark orange might mean you can take a tick or two of spore, but you won't survive a Skulk hit. Spore as an AoE attack means all areas of your suit are affected equally. Medpacks also heal all areas equally, so your weak side will still stay weak until all other zones are at 100% and med rejuvenation goes completely onto that one area.
Here's where the depth is: if you know on your right side that you will die to a Skulk hit, you must try to take the Skulk on from the right to present your 'healthier' side to him. Or must you? Herein there is a situation where you can bluff a Skulk to try to attack you on what he thinks is your weak side but you could be feigning weakness on that side just to survive an extra bite.
Same thinking goes for legs, if you are weak there, you need to get below your target and get them to attack you from above if possible. This could be drawing fire from a Lerk instead of engaging Skulks.
I'll admit this system is far from perfect, and I wouldn't want to see it in NS specifically. But if you were to place it in a different game it might be something that could give equal or increased elements of depth but still be a no-numbers solution. The point is some of the people in this thread refuse to think outside the box. As much as I can't see a good reason to change the HUD, I am also at least open to alternative ways of thinking if the end effect is comparable. Until we know more it's only worth expressing misgivings, but you cannot for certain say that this is automatically a bad design decision without seeing the end result.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obiviously any kind of system is fine as long as it serves its purpose. However, so far we've heard very little reasoning for the HUD changes. At least to me this has seemed to be a lot of simplifying for quite little gain so far. I guess we'll have to wait until they are ready to present their reasoning in bigger scale.
I can definitely live with a no-number hud, although I'd probably still prefer a numeric one. I'm actually more confused by the fact that the HUD is going to be fading out and minimal in general. It's a drastic change to the present system where you can always adapt your gaming by res count, minimap, game time and armor and hp counters at least. Are most of those irrelevant in NS2?
<!--quoteo(post=1695390:date=Dec 6 2008, 03:09 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Dec 6 2008, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695390"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obiviously any kind of system is fine as long as it serves its purpose. However, so far we've heard very little reasoning for the HUD changes. At least to me this has seemed to be a lot of simplifying for quite little gain so far. I guess we'll have to wait until they are ready to present their reasoning in bigger scale.
I can definitely live with a no-number hud, although I'd probably still prefer a numeric one. I'm actually more confused by the fact that the HUD is going to be fading out and minimal in general. It's a drastic change to the present system where you can always adapt your gaming by res count, minimap, game time and armor and hp counters at least. Are most of those irrelevant in NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they are then it shouldn't be called NS2. I mean that takes away key aspects from NS.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1695255:date=Dec 5 2008, 02:49 PM:name=Zamma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zamma @ Dec 5 2008, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695255"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yea I agree with Bacillus, I mean NS always has been about calculations and understand the res system and the game mechanics. I feel some of the mechanics are being changed too much to the extent competetive play, and even general play may be ruined.
Sure dynamic infestion and mobile sieges are kinda fine... I mean at the end of the day, if balanced, they will be a nice new feature for players to look into, but all these changes to the minimaps, hugs and such... sounds crazy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Change isn't bad. If the devs didn't want to make changes they would have made NS: Source instead of NS2. <!--quoteo(post=1695353:date=Dec 6 2008, 12:41 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Dec 6 2008, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is blindly dismissive. I'm with Puzl on this. My instinct tells me it's a bad idea, but my head tells me there are ways to add depth to a no-numbers HUD replacement.
I'll throw up an example for you, even if I don't think it would specifically work well in NS, it is an alternative to a numbers HUD that would add depth.
<b>No-numbers Marine HUD:</b> You have a picture of your suit in the bottom left of the screen. The suit is divided up into left arm, right arm, head, and legs. Each of these areas goes from green to red via yellow in multiple stages of colour according to percentiles. The purest red in any area of the suit HUD means one hit from anything will kill you. Dark orange might mean you can take a tick or two of spore, but you won't survive a Skulk hit. Spore as an AoE attack means all areas of your suit are affected equally. Medpacks also heal all areas equally, so your weak side will still stay weak until all other zones are at 100% and med rejuvenation goes completely onto that one area.
Here's where the depth is: if you know on your right side that you will die to a Skulk hit, you must try to take the Skulk on from the right to present your 'healthier' side to him. Or must you? Herein there is a situation where you can bluff a Skulk to try to attack you on what he thinks is your weak side but you could be feigning weakness on that side just to survive an extra bite.
Same thinking goes for legs, if you are weak there, you need to get below your target and get them to attack you from above if possible. This could be drawing fire from a Lerk instead of engaging Skulks.
I'll admit this system is far from perfect, and I wouldn't want to see it in NS specifically. But if you were to place it in a different game it might be something that could give equal or increased elements of depth but still be a no-numbers solution. The point is some of the people in this thread refuse to think outside the box. As much as I can't see a good reason to change the HUD, I am also at least open to alternative ways of thinking if the end effect is comparable. Until we know more it's only worth expressing misgivings, but you cannot for certain say that this is automatically a bad design decision without seeing the end result.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoted for agreement. Saying "OMG change is bad" is not constructive criticism. A lot of the arguments against minimal hud here boil down to that or I need to accurately know my fitness. As it's been stated is this thread before there has been no proposal to take that information away from the player, just present it in a more immersive form. <!--quoteo(post=1695426:date=Dec 6 2008, 11:00 PM:name=Zamma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zamma @ Dec 6 2008, 11:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695426"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they are then it shouldn't be called NS2. I mean that takes away key aspects from NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's true you need to have a lot of situational awareness as a marine and I doubt that will change. Honestly, after thinking about it from, that perspective I understand the push for minimal hud. There are two types of situational awareness in NS, immediate and global. Immediate is "is there a skulk around that corner" amd really do want a minimal hud when you're about to engage. Yes you need to know how many bites/para you can take, but again that information should still be available at a glance.
Global awareness is something you check on when you're not worried about your immediate surroundings. That's when you want to know if the AA is going, when your squadmates and other squads are, and all the important information that is irrelevant when you're in battle.
So by all means give the player access to info when he asks it (I think NS could do a better job of that), but hide it when all he's focused on is his prey.
<!--quoteo(post=1695431:date=Dec 7 2008, 04:41 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Dec 7 2008, 04:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Change isn't bad. If the devs didn't want to make changes they would have made NS: Source instead of NS2.
Quoted for agreement. Saying "OMG change is bad" is not constructive criticism. A lot of the arguments against minimal hud here boil down to that or I need to accurately know my fitness. As it's been stated is this thread before there has been no proposal to take that information away from the player, just present it in a more immersive form.
It's true you need to have a lot of situational awareness as a marine and I doubt that will change. Honestly, after thinking about it from, that perspective I understand the push for minimal hud. There are two types of situational awareness in NS, immediate and global. Immediate is "is there a skulk around that corner" amd really do want a minimal hud when you're about to engage. Yes you need to know how many bites/para you can take, but again that information should still be available at a glance.
Global awareness is something you check on when you're not worried about your immediate surroundings. That's when you want to know if the AA is going, when your squadmates and other squads are, and all the important information that is irrelevant when you're in battle.
So by all means give the player access to info when he asks it (I think NS could do a better job of that), but hide it when all he's focused on is his prey.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think quite a few people actually are worried about the minimalistic HUD as a whole. The numeric HPs just got picked up due to some ranting and flaming on early pages. The minimap has been the biggest worry on the few irc discussions I've seen at least.
Like I've said, the change isn't bad but it would be nice to have a little more reasoning for their decisions that hardly add anything to the present NS. I bet they've got some awesome plans for NS2, but so I far I've failed to understand where these changes are taking the game. It's a little same as saying "Hi, we are going to include a bhop system into the game." At that point a huge group of people would start disagreeing, although it could be a perfectly inuitive version of it and mean nothing but good for the game.
I guess it's possible to have the HUD the way you described. I heavily disagree with your description of the awarness though. It's a 8 player team, the aliens have had 4 nodes up for all round and it's 3:30 into the round. At that point a smart marine can set up the movement speed and risk taking so that it serves the purpose. The fade will most likely be up in 15 seconds. If you've got nice upgrades and a armed squad at a crucial location: take you time, the fade is busy elsewhere. If you're low on upgrades and got only LMGs on the field: RUN.
The major point is that your own individual play should always reflect the global situation. It's is a huge part of the game until that 3 second firefight starts, and even at that point you can find quite a bit of use for it sometimes. That's definitely not something you're going to check only when feeling somewhat safe.
A lot of the individual situational awarness also comes from the global situation. Which directions you need to worry about? Are you facing a skulk or possibly many skulks and a lerk? If I cause some fuzz here, will the rest of the team make use of it?
I love that Flayra reiterated that MOVEMENT would be an important part of the game, but the minimalization of the hud may be part of that decision to focus the player on the movement aspect.
<!--quoteo(post=1695490:date=Dec 7 2008, 10:43 AM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Dec 7 2008, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love that Flayra reiterated that MOVEMENT would be an important part of the game, but the minimalization of the hud may be part of that decision to focus the player on the movement aspect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Movement like Bhopping problem is only with HL1 fps engine fault not scripts that every noobs think. Higher FPS bunnyhopping is easier/faster, but anD BUT when your fps is higher your timing to jump is even harder(thats why it usually need script to bunny with space or just use mousewheel).. Same goes to firerate you can shoot faster with lmg on fps 76 than 100.. Its all about the fps
And source dont have this problem so it would be even better, but there is reg problems wich was one reason to make own engine (and now they just wanna make it commercial what sells and ruind it with simple ideas that noobs and random players can learn)
If they ruind it, i´m not gonna buy it and will just warez it like every ###### games. I dont wanna even guess what NS1 donators would think...
<!--quoteo(post=1695672:date=Dec 9 2008, 02:28 PM:name=Mige)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mige @ Dec 9 2008, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they ruind it, i´m not gonna buy it and will just warez it like every ###### games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So if you think a game sucks you download it and play it? Why would you want to play it if it sucks??? Seriously, this just sounds like a very bad excuse for not paying.
That said, I'm also worried about the new HUD. I can't imagine how it could be as detailed as the NS1 one. Something like a constantly flashing HUD or warning sounds could get quite annoying.
Comments
One could also remove the ammo counter, so you better count those 125/250 hmg bullets or it's gonna be "Ohnoes a fade: shoot, click, click dead"
Rejected because if you're the type of player which counts on being able to weigh the risks in every manner down to the number of bullets left in your gun, you want to be able to have a good idea if you can win that battle or if you should run. Often you don't need to know your health status to know this, but sometimes you do because you're evenly matched with your opponent on all other accounts.
My view is that it could be a nice addition to natural selection, but it has to be done right! A player should receive frequent red flashes when wounded and walking (walking on a bad leg for example), though the intensity would depend on how wounded you are and you also couldn't go overboard or your screen will be full of red.
Furthermore, perhaps you'd bleed on the floor if seriously wounded (aka, get a med pack if you don't want to die in the next bite). Perhaps you'd even make it so that the marine walks slower or in a more rhythmic sense (limping), though I think the slow rate shouldn't be exaggerated.. 20% slower speed tops, as you'd still want to keep up with the action.
If done right, I think it'd would increase immersion into the game. The number of bullets can be seen on the gun model. The commander orders can even be seen as a hud-display, but that's different. That's not a 'hud shown because we're doing the first person shooter' thing but a technology available to the commander to insert information for the player. Before you start calling it the same thing, the commander cannot tell you a percentage from 1 to 100 on your health status (nor could you yourself in real life for that matter).
Natural selection is not a horror game, but it could be presented in that fashion. Who ever said that when you play a multiplayer game that you have to see a handle above the guy's head and a message saying when you killed him (or when he kills you)? It could be presented much more like you're a marine fighting sentient aliens than a deathmatch. That is definitely worth the hudless display. You guys might disagree with me here, but immersion style beats deathmatch style any day of the week. I'm sure if they were out to do deathmatch style, they would have already said they'd do a Combat Natural Selection 2, but it seems to me they're out to produce something innovative and radically different than your typical arena-style "I pwn u" game.
I guess my worries are a little about the way the dev team has presented its new NS2 designs. So far everything has been heavily simplified while there hasn't been a single mention about the features that receive additional depth and thinking. DI and alien comm are going to add some new features, but still it has been a lot of simplifying for nothing solid on the depth side.
Counting HPs on NS1 logic without the numbers is next to impossible. Was it 3 or 4 ticks of spore? Did I get friendly fire there? How many paras? Did I get welded for 2 or 3 seconds?
Basically I just feel losing the numbers is another little trick lost for nothing. It sure can work fine, but still I can't see why this is the way they choose to do it.
However, one can debate what gives NS2 the biggest likelyhood of commercial success. In that arguement, one has to take into account the fact that almost all successful past FPS games have used numbers in their HUD. Gamers with experience in these games will instantly get a feeling that something isn't right, and might even decide to not even give NS2 a real chance because "it's weird". On the other hand, NS is an FPS/RTS hybrid, with fairly unique gameplay elements and therefore might not be that negatively affected by this. It might even give the game more mainstream appeal, or appeal to different gamer groups than it otherwise would.
Which side's arguements weigh the most in the end? I honestly can't say, but no numbers is certainly a gutsy, risky, move. Personally this unfortunately corresponds with everything else that has been released about NS2 so far, which points to a game with a lot less competitive appeal than NS. For someone who's played and loved -- as much as one can love a game -- NS competitively for five years this is both disappointing and saddening. Not so much because the game is being geared towards the casual crowd, this much has been apparent for a long time, but because it seems like the competitive side of the game is being completely ignored alltogether. So far there's been plenty of "good news" for casual players, and none for competitive players. One can't help but feel... unloved.
<!--quoteo(post=1695220:date=Dec 5 2008, 02:51 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Dec 5 2008, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll be dissapointed with NS2 if it doesn't ramp up the immersion another notch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Immersion is a horrible industry catch phrase, that really needs to die. It's even worse than the "epic" hysteria in NS. I'm not saying that a game shouldn't strive towards further pulling players into the game, but the phrase immersion when used in relation to games really holds little to no value anymore. This isn't really related to the topic though, but I needed to get that off my chest!
I think the idea of removing HUD comes from the basic ideology of making NS2 an <b>"atmospheric"</b> game. While I don't disagree that an atmospheric game can be a great game, especially a singleplayer-game, NS is an competitive game and the <b>reason</b> why ENSL still exists 6 years after the game release, is because NS is so awesome for competitive games.
Mark my words. Atmospheric and content-based games work miracles for short period of times, but the more you make the game atmospheric, shorter the game scene and gamepaly value will last (like Final Fantasies or movies generally, great for one-time-pleasure). Competitive games like NS, Starcraft, Counter Strike, DoD, CoD etc. have very little content compared to their huge popularity many years after release.
More than responding to the HUD-question, I'm sending this message more as a general response to new possible features of NS2.
Anyway - I don't want to be conservative but I just don't hope another 1.04.
It may not though. Alot of the playtesters may be the more "atmospheric" loving players and will be like "oh yay blood and flashes and no hud... yay so atmospheric".
I think Fana summed it up pretty clearly to be honest with a very touching post.
There is nothing wrong with the numbered HUD system. It's a classic FPS style.
And yes I am worried about how the devs implement this. Remember it took 4 years to get NS to a balanced state, 4 years with a vets and PT system. The more changes the NS team do to NS as a port to NS2, the more things which can imbalance the game and take valued time to fix.
But yea, I've thought about it and it'd create a new mechanic where players would have to keep track of their health manually if they want to have an advantage. Armor should be shown as a number though, it'd be a pain to keep track of both considering how hard armor is to replace.
Voice of reason
not at all. people can be subjective.
If it doesn't work for whom? The whole direction for NS2 has been this, and so far I haven't liked it that much. The smaller maps, no minimap, minimalistic HUD. I think they've made a few big decisions on how NS2 is going to differ from the first one.
Some changes I can see as reasonable improvements, but I'm going to miss some of the elements big time, that's for sure. I just hope they've got some really amazing plans for the rest of the game, because understanding and manipulating the gameplay flow on the map has been one of the most interesting features in NS for me.
If you guys sit around contemplating all the different combinations of attacks you can take with your current Health and armor points, then you deserve to fackin die. how about instead of "Taking this hit and that hit" you AVOID being hit altogether? if you die, you die.... but you TRIED to avoid it, you didn't run in thinking "its OK I can take one hit"
Just stop the crap, its a NEW game with NEW features, if you still want to play NS1, there's nobody stopping you.
AND IF YOU WERNT SO NAIVE OR LAZY, YOU WOULD CONSIDER STARTING TO LEARN LUA SO YOU CAN MAKE VANILLA NS IN THE NEW ENGINE AND STOP WHINING SO WE DON'T HAVE TO PLAY WITH YOU IN THIS FRESH NEW GAME<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol i just run in and dont care how much health i have because i am a faaglette noobie who can code lua to a sh!t level but not good enough to get a job so i troll forums lolz.
I agree with Gibbz. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" />
-never play aliens-
Some changes I can see as reasonable improvements, but I'm going to miss some of the elements big time, that's for sure. I just hope they've got some really amazing plans for the rest of the game, because understanding and manipulating the gameplay flow on the map has been one of the most interesting features in NS for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea I agree with Bacillus, I mean NS always has been about calculations and understand the res system and the game mechanics. I feel some of the mechanics are being changed too much to the extent competetive play, and even general play may be ruined.
Sure dynamic infestion and mobile sieges are kinda fine... I mean at the end of the day, if balanced, they will be a nice new feature for players to look into, but all these changes to the minimaps, hugs and such... sounds crazy.
You're doing it wrong. Quote Mr.Perfection more.
Is it simplicity? Obscurity isn't synonymous with simplicity, is it? Information on the hud is a key element to what makes the marines different, imo, in terms of both gameplay and atmosphere. Remove hud elements on the kharaa side but keep them on the marine side.
Even if there aren't numbers immediately visible, that doesn't mean they aren't there. Ever play Deadspace?? They used BARS! No way that could work, right?! Wrong. When you have bars, it's even easier to see how many hits you can take. If you have 5/10 bars, and you know para takes 1 bar, and a bite takes 2 bars, how many bites could you take with 2 para's? BAM! Instantly available, and WAY more user friendly with it's lower numbers (1-10 instead of 1-100). Bars also change colors in a VERY noticeable way. That means even when you aren't mr. pro and keep track of bites, you get an instant notice of impending death with a simple change of color. Blue > red is a VERY drastic and VERY noticeable change.
So before you crap yourself because you don't have your instant 1-100 numbers on your screen, think about the alternatives the creators could implement. No numbers doesn't mean you're going to be totally clueless and have no information provided, it simply means there are not NUMBERS. Just no numbers isn't scary, in fact, numbers are scarier for a new player because every game incorporates them differently.
In general, the ideal health divisibility depends on the smallest amount of damage you can take, so obviously the benefits of this system are diminished if Armor is still handled as it was in NS1. With onos carapace armor diminishing weld damage down to less than 1 hp, it becomes a source of information loss to remove the numeric hud. Hey, in fact, we should complain that all numerical measures in NS1 are not multiplied by 10 and display the next significant figure.
So, either the hud is changed only or the damage system is changed and the hud accompanies it. Either way I trust the devs... as long as they don't borrow TOO much from Deadspace, heh.
I'll throw up an example for you, even if I don't think it would specifically work well in NS, it is an alternative to a numbers HUD that would add depth.
<b>No-numbers Marine HUD:</b>
You have a picture of your suit in the bottom left of the screen. The suit is divided up into left arm, right arm, head, and legs. Each of these areas goes from green to red via yellow in multiple stages of colour according to percentiles. The purest red in any area of the suit HUD means one hit from anything will kill you. Dark orange might mean you can take a tick or two of spore, but you won't survive a Skulk hit. Spore as an AoE attack means all areas of your suit are affected equally. Medpacks also heal all areas equally, so your weak side will still stay weak until all other zones are at 100% and med rejuvenation goes completely onto that one area.
Here's where the depth is: if you know on your right side that you will die to a Skulk hit, you must try to take the Skulk on from the right to present your 'healthier' side to him. Or must you? Herein there is a situation where you can bluff a Skulk to try to attack you on what he thinks is your weak side but you could be feigning weakness on that side just to survive an extra bite.
Same thinking goes for legs, if you are weak there, you need to get below your target and get them to attack you from above if possible. This could be drawing fire from a Lerk instead of engaging Skulks.
I'll admit this system is far from perfect, and I wouldn't want to see it in NS specifically. But if you were to place it in a different game it might be something that could give equal or increased elements of depth but still be a no-numbers solution. The point is some of the people in this thread refuse to think outside the box. As much as I can't see a good reason to change the HUD, I am also at least open to alternative ways of thinking if the end effect is comparable. Until we know more it's only worth expressing misgivings, but you cannot for certain say that this is automatically a bad design decision without seeing the end result.
I explained how it added an element of depth to the gameplay. Alternate depth, but depth nonetheless.
---
If you're talking about the NS concept, we don't know specifically what it is other than it's a no-numbers health indicator, so arguing that an unknown quantity adds/detracts from gameplay is a pointless endeavour.
I'll throw up an example for you, even if I don't think it would specifically work well in NS, it is an alternative to a numbers HUD that would add depth.
<b>No-numbers Marine HUD:</b>
You have a picture of your suit in the bottom left of the screen. The suit is divided up into left arm, right arm, head, and legs. Each of these areas goes from green to red via yellow in multiple stages of colour according to percentiles. The purest red in any area of the suit HUD means one hit from anything will kill you. Dark orange might mean you can take a tick or two of spore, but you won't survive a Skulk hit. Spore as an AoE attack means all areas of your suit are affected equally. Medpacks also heal all areas equally, so your weak side will still stay weak until all other zones are at 100% and med rejuvenation goes completely onto that one area.
Here's where the depth is: if you know on your right side that you will die to a Skulk hit, you must try to take the Skulk on from the right to present your 'healthier' side to him. Herein there is a situation where you can bluff a Skulk to try to attack you on what he thinks is your weak side but you could be feigning weakness on that side just to survive an extra bite.
Same thinking goes for legs, if you are weak there, you need to get below your target and get them to attack you from above if possible. This could be drawing fire from a Lerk instead of engaging Skulks.
I'll admit this system is far from perfect, and I wouldn't want to see it in NS specifically. But if you were to place it in a different game it might be something that could give equal or increased elements of depth but still be a no-numbers solution. The point is some of the people in this thread refuse to think outside the box. As much as I can't see a good reason to change the HUD, I am also at least open to alternative ways of thinking if the end effect is comparable. Until we know more it's only worth expressing misgivings, but you cannot for certain say that this is automatically a bad design decision without seeing the end result.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While this system does appear to be more immersive and strategic, you're now throwing in hit box registration, and a damage system that could also lead to some different game play(good or bad, I don't like to judge until I feel the idea and concept implemented into game play) But the idea of a marine taking a hit on his right, purposefully turning to take a hit on his left, and then making himself survive an extra bite per se could be aggravating to some alien players. As this kind of creates a more coordinated side of skilled marine movement, especially when you're in a close fight with whatever.
But now we're taking a HUD discussion more into game-play mechanics, so, anywho.. my only point is really I would be interested to see if this would be effective got pub and/or competitive gameplay. Or that it could be LUA'd into a custom game perhaps?
One of the biggest reasons I don't post prolifically on these forums, even though I check and surf it quickly 3-4 times a day is I'm tired of seeing everyone babble and argue on and on and on about game-play theory and how one thing will ruin the game etc, etc.
Instead of arguing about any information that is being released by the dev team and the community, why not support the idea and try to improve on each one, and come to conclusions when the game is actually released and playable enough to test certain scenarios and game-play settings.
Everyone wants to kill off any idea that isn't remotely close to their "ideal" of NS2, the ideas never get a chance to actually be tested. Its like a group of philosophers all discrediting each-other.
I'll throw up an example for you, even if I don't think it would specifically work well in NS, it is an alternative to a numbers HUD that would add depth.
<b>No-numbers Marine HUD:</b>
You have a picture of your suit in the bottom left of the screen. The suit is divided up into left arm, right arm, head, and legs. Each of these areas goes from green to red via yellow in multiple stages of colour according to percentiles. The purest red in any area of the suit HUD means one hit from anything will kill you. Dark orange might mean you can take a tick or two of spore, but you won't survive a Skulk hit. Spore as an AoE attack means all areas of your suit are affected equally. Medpacks also heal all areas equally, so your weak side will still stay weak until all other zones are at 100% and med rejuvenation goes completely onto that one area.
Here's where the depth is: if you know on your right side that you will die to a Skulk hit, you must try to take the Skulk on from the right to present your 'healthier' side to him. Or must you? Herein there is a situation where you can bluff a Skulk to try to attack you on what he thinks is your weak side but you could be feigning weakness on that side just to survive an extra bite.
Same thinking goes for legs, if you are weak there, you need to get below your target and get them to attack you from above if possible. This could be drawing fire from a Lerk instead of engaging Skulks.
I'll admit this system is far from perfect, and I wouldn't want to see it in NS specifically. But if you were to place it in a different game it might be something that could give equal or increased elements of depth but still be a no-numbers solution. The point is some of the people in this thread refuse to think outside the box. As much as I can't see a good reason to change the HUD, I am also at least open to alternative ways of thinking if the end effect is comparable. Until we know more it's only worth expressing misgivings, but you cannot for certain say that this is automatically a bad design decision without seeing the end result.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obiviously any kind of system is fine as long as it serves its purpose. However, so far we've heard very little reasoning for the HUD changes. At least to me this has seemed to be a lot of simplifying for quite little gain so far. I guess we'll have to wait until they are ready to present their reasoning in bigger scale.
I can definitely live with a no-number hud, although I'd probably still prefer a numeric one. I'm actually more confused by the fact that the HUD is going to be fading out and minimal in general. It's a drastic change to the present system where you can always adapt your gaming by res count, minimap, game time and armor and hp counters at least. Are most of those irrelevant in NS2?
I can definitely live with a no-number hud, although I'd probably still prefer a numeric one. I'm actually more confused by the fact that the HUD is going to be fading out and minimal in general. It's a drastic change to the present system where you can always adapt your gaming by res count, minimap, game time and armor and hp counters at least. Are most of those irrelevant in NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they are then it shouldn't be called NS2. I mean that takes away key aspects from NS.
Sure dynamic infestion and mobile sieges are kinda fine... I mean at the end of the day, if balanced, they will be a nice new feature for players to look into, but all these changes to the minimaps, hugs and such... sounds crazy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Change isn't bad. If the devs didn't want to make changes they would have made NS: Source instead of NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1695353:date=Dec 6 2008, 12:41 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Dec 6 2008, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is blindly dismissive. I'm with Puzl on this. My instinct tells me it's a bad idea, but my head tells me there are ways to add depth to a no-numbers HUD replacement.
I'll throw up an example for you, even if I don't think it would specifically work well in NS, it is an alternative to a numbers HUD that would add depth.
<b>No-numbers Marine HUD:</b>
You have a picture of your suit in the bottom left of the screen. The suit is divided up into left arm, right arm, head, and legs. Each of these areas goes from green to red via yellow in multiple stages of colour according to percentiles. The purest red in any area of the suit HUD means one hit from anything will kill you. Dark orange might mean you can take a tick or two of spore, but you won't survive a Skulk hit. Spore as an AoE attack means all areas of your suit are affected equally. Medpacks also heal all areas equally, so your weak side will still stay weak until all other zones are at 100% and med rejuvenation goes completely onto that one area.
Here's where the depth is: if you know on your right side that you will die to a Skulk hit, you must try to take the Skulk on from the right to present your 'healthier' side to him. Or must you? Herein there is a situation where you can bluff a Skulk to try to attack you on what he thinks is your weak side but you could be feigning weakness on that side just to survive an extra bite.
Same thinking goes for legs, if you are weak there, you need to get below your target and get them to attack you from above if possible. This could be drawing fire from a Lerk instead of engaging Skulks.
I'll admit this system is far from perfect, and I wouldn't want to see it in NS specifically. But if you were to place it in a different game it might be something that could give equal or increased elements of depth but still be a no-numbers solution. The point is some of the people in this thread refuse to think outside the box. As much as I can't see a good reason to change the HUD, I am also at least open to alternative ways of thinking if the end effect is comparable. Until we know more it's only worth expressing misgivings, but you cannot for certain say that this is automatically a bad design decision without seeing the end result.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for agreement. Saying "OMG change is bad" is not constructive criticism. A lot of the arguments against minimal hud here boil down to that or I need to accurately know my fitness. As it's been stated is this thread before there has been no proposal to take that information away from the player, just present it in a more immersive form.
<!--quoteo(post=1695426:date=Dec 6 2008, 11:00 PM:name=Zamma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zamma @ Dec 6 2008, 11:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695426"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they are then it shouldn't be called NS2. I mean that takes away key aspects from NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's true you need to have a lot of situational awareness as a marine and I doubt that will change. Honestly, after thinking about it from, that perspective I understand the push for minimal hud. There are two types of situational awareness in NS, immediate and global. Immediate is "is there a skulk around that corner" amd really do want a minimal hud when you're about to engage. Yes you need to know how many bites/para you can take, but again that information should still be available at a glance.
Global awareness is something you check on when you're not worried about your immediate surroundings. That's when you want to know if the AA is going, when your squadmates and other squads are, and all the important information that is irrelevant when you're in battle.
So by all means give the player access to info when he asks it (I think NS could do a better job of that), but hide it when all he's focused on is his prey.
Quoted for agreement. Saying "OMG change is bad" is not constructive criticism. A lot of the arguments against minimal hud here boil down to that or I need to accurately know my fitness. As it's been stated is this thread before there has been no proposal to take that information away from the player, just present it in a more immersive form.
It's true you need to have a lot of situational awareness as a marine and I doubt that will change. Honestly, after thinking about it from, that perspective I understand the push for minimal hud. There are two types of situational awareness in NS, immediate and global. Immediate is "is there a skulk around that corner" amd really do want a minimal hud when you're about to engage. Yes you need to know how many bites/para you can take, but again that information should still be available at a glance.
Global awareness is something you check on when you're not worried about your immediate surroundings. That's when you want to know if the AA is going, when your squadmates and other squads are, and all the important information that is irrelevant when you're in battle.
So by all means give the player access to info when he asks it (I think NS could do a better job of that), but hide it when all he's focused on is his prey.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think quite a few people actually are worried about the minimalistic HUD as a whole. The numeric HPs just got picked up due to some ranting and flaming on early pages. The minimap has been the biggest worry on the few irc discussions I've seen at least.
Like I've said, the change isn't bad but it would be nice to have a little more reasoning for their decisions that hardly add anything to the present NS. I bet they've got some awesome plans for NS2, but so I far I've failed to understand where these changes are taking the game. It's a little same as saying "Hi, we are going to include a bhop system into the game." At that point a huge group of people would start disagreeing, although it could be a perfectly inuitive version of it and mean nothing but good for the game.
I guess it's possible to have the HUD the way you described. I heavily disagree with your description of the awarness though. It's a 8 player team, the aliens have had 4 nodes up for all round and it's 3:30 into the round. At that point a smart marine can set up the movement speed and risk taking so that it serves the purpose. The fade will most likely be up in 15 seconds. If you've got nice upgrades and a armed squad at a crucial location: take you time, the fade is busy elsewhere. If you're low on upgrades and got only LMGs on the field: RUN.
The major point is that your own individual play should always reflect the global situation. It's is a huge part of the game until that 3 second firefight starts, and even at that point you can find quite a bit of use for it sometimes. That's definitely not something you're going to check only when feeling somewhat safe.
A lot of the individual situational awarness also comes from the global situation. Which directions you need to worry about? Are you facing a skulk or possibly many skulks and a lerk? If I cause some fuzz here, will the rest of the team make use of it?
Movement like Bhopping problem is only with HL1 fps engine fault not scripts that every noobs think. Higher FPS bunnyhopping is easier/faster, but anD BUT when your fps is higher your timing to jump is even harder(thats why it usually need script to bunny with space or just use mousewheel).. Same goes to firerate you can shoot faster with lmg on fps 76 than 100.. Its all about the fps
And source dont have this problem so it would be even better, but there is reg problems wich was one reason to make own engine (and now they just wanna make it commercial what sells and ruind it with simple ideas that noobs and random players can learn)
If they ruind it, i´m not gonna buy it and will just warez it like every ###### games. I dont wanna even guess what NS1 donators would think...
BTW NS1 is best multiplayer game ever.
So if you think a game sucks you download it and play it?
Why would you want to play it if it sucks???
Seriously, this just sounds like a very bad excuse for not paying.
That said, I'm also worried about the new HUD.
I can't imagine how it could be as detailed as the NS1 one.
Something like a constantly flashing HUD or warning sounds could get quite annoying.