Female Marine

Sirot

<div class="IPBDescription">Screen Captures</div><a href="http://imageshack.us" target="_blank"><img src="http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4243/femalemarinejt5.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://g.imageshack.us/img117/femalemarinejt5.jpg/1/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/femalemarinejt5.jpg/1/w1222.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

I was discussing the merits of the NS2 engine as a platform and while looking over the tech demo I caught the female Marine. Out of boredom, I investigated. I am not sure if this information was discussed before, but does anyone else find the female marine model to be a bit odd looking? I took some screen captures of her during the video to help make my point. I know it could be just the perspective, but her feet seem to be a bit short and her hourglass shape a little...exaggerated. Am I the only one who thinks this?

Also, the idea of having the chest piece conformed to her body is somewhat tacky. A solid chest piece would be more than satisfactory.

Crispy

I think she has more of a pear than an hourglass shape.

Having breast support is no doubt important, but there's no reason for it to be fully moulded to show the shape on the outside other than to emphasise the female form. I don't really think it's tacky or not, it might be worth getting a girl's opinion as to whether they would prefer to see the more eroticised form or if they would prefer the breasts covered up by a flat breastplate (assuming there is adequate cup space within this cavity). She's hardly wearing a bikini and she doesn't exactly look like a token soldier, which is the main thing.

Paradox Monkey

It does look a little off to me, but it might just be perspective. I'd like to see a side-by-side comparison of the male and female marine models with higher picture quality. Though from what I can tell from Twitter updates, the male model isn't finished yet.

Align

Love the helmet, at any rate.

aeroripper

Does seem a bit odd. I can't imagine why they would custom mold giant cups into armor in the future, nanites makes it easy I guess? Because armor just got a whole lot <i>sexier</i>.

Price

this is taken from UWE right?
oh man looks awesome.
but about the suit i prefer the old one or more like this:
<img src="http://www.legionxxiv.org/robocop%20003.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

TychoCelchuuu

It's nanite armor, they can make it whatever shape they want!

NANITES NANITES NANITES

Sops

The feet do look short.

As for the chest, if you look at modern female soldiers you don't see many form fitting uniforms.
<a href="http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5262069,00.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5262069,00.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/01/26/female_soldier_wideweb__430x287.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/01/...eb__430x287.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.bigredhair.com/mp/MP2.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.bigredhair.com/mp/MP2.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.bsecurity.se/areas/images/Big_female_soldier.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.bsecurity.se/areas/images/Big_female_soldier.jpg</a>

Align

What about sci-fi with futuristic armors?

Sirot

I do still think having the centre of mass a single plate instead of a body molded one would be better. Getting shot in the breast for that marine would suck.

Align

Bitten, you mean?

PseudoKnight

There are scenarios in which molded armor would be chosen over generic armor as long as they were just as effective. It's less likely, but it's still a possibility. I don't think we should be too worried about the realism and should be more focused on how something will affect gameplay. The female marine is only really useful in that it's an extra quick identifier for unique players. (along with helmet designs, skin color, etc.) So, with that in mind, making the female marine model more different from the male marine model helps decrease the identification delay.

Sirot

<!--quoteo(post=1695534:date=Dec 7 2008, 06:53 PM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PseudoKnight @ Dec 7 2008, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are scenarios in which molded armor would be chosen over generic armor as long as they were just as effective. It's less likely, but it's still a possibility. I don't think we should be too worried about the realism and should be more focused on how something will affect gameplay. The female marine is only really useful in that it's an extra quick identifier for unique players. (along with helmet designs, skin color, etc.) So, with that in mind, making the female marine model more different from the male marine model helps decrease the identification delay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

How is there an issue of identification delay if male and female versions fill the exact same role? It's really hard to associate players with models since everyone is going to look mostly the same : /

<!--quoteo(post=1695532:date=Dec 7 2008, 06:46 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Dec 7 2008, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bitten, you mean?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Bitegun?

PseudoKnight

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is there an issue of identification delay if male and female versions fill the exact same role? It's really hard to associate players with models since everyone is going to look mostly the same : /<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You can identify friends more easily and the enemy can count your numbers without checking names. (there's probably others) This comes into play more often than you'd think. It's subtly useful. If we're going to have customization of models, then it might as well be focused on the one aspect that contributes to gameplay.

Hawkeye

At that point, it's enough to have camoflauge pants as opposed to the standard green plated pants or something like that. There are more ways than say breasts and skirts to show it's a woman. Should we have like a big superman logo on her chest too, except that it wouldn't be a big 'S' in the middle but the sign for women like the ones you see on female restroom doors?

If you're trying to recall ever female marine or soldier you've ever seen and distinctly remember seeing a breast-formed armor plate, it's probably because it was in a movie or in a video game. That simply doesn't happen in real life. At best, there's a single indent extending from the plate where the breasts would fill. However even that would be rather insignificant.

Simply change the armor style. Pretend for a second that frontiersmen don't all have the same armor and build, and suppose you'd see some with camoflauge or others with a utility belt.

I think they should make four models, two for men and two for women. The model is random of the two available depending on your gender and remains the same throughout the lifetime of the map. No reason why you shouldn't expect a wider variety. The jetpack would be fairly straightforward, as you wouldn't need separate models for that, and as for the HA suit, it's enough to have one for male and one for female at that point.

gamakun

<!--quoteo(post=1695662:date=Dec 9 2008, 12:27 PM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hawkeye @ Dec 9 2008, 12:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think they should make four models, two for men and two for women. The model is random of the two available depending on your gender and remains the same throughout the lifetime of the map. No reason why you shouldn't expect a wider variety. The jetpack would be fairly straightforward, as you wouldn't need separate models for that, and as for the HA suit, it's enough to have one for male and one for female at that point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Sounds good, but any suggestion oh how it would look for the female marine?

PseudoKnight

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At that point, it's enough to have camoflauge pants as opposed to the standard green plated pants or something like that. There are more ways than say breasts and skirts to show it's a woman. Should we have like a big superman logo on her chest too, except that it wouldn't be a big 'S' in the middle but the sign for women like the ones you see on female restroom doors?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Wow, that was a predictable response. I thought about preceding it, but I tried to have a little faith.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simply change the armor style.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Give me a compelling reason that an artist should spend the time recreating the female model other than it isn't realistic. Does it really look that bad to you? Distracting? I'm having a hard time telling how I feel about it without it in animation and proper posture. From what I can tell, though, I don't have any major disagreements with the artist's design decisions. It's believable, regardless of realism.

Hawkeye

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Give me a compelling reason that an artist should spend the time recreating the female model other than it isn't realistic. Does it really look that bad to you? Distracting? I'm having a hard time telling how I feel about it without it in animation and proper posture. From what I can tell, though, I don't have any major disagreements with the artist's design decisions. It's believable, regardless of realism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you're saying we should have a female model only for the purposes of realism? Screw realism! We're on spaceships fighting aliens with armor suits and weapons that haven't even been invented yet no less. The point of having a female model was purely for aesthetic reasons. I'm sure female players would like to be represented as females rather than males for that matter.

At that point, the next step would be to have more than the exact minimum of models required. Heck, artists create textures and guns and armor and ships and all sorts of things for games these days. If they were asked to make a total of 4 models rather than 2 (2 of which being similar enough to make small modifications of the other), I don't think it's asking much. I think you forget that the point is for entertainment. I don't find anything wrong with the model presented in the picture (if not perhaps to not build the armor like she were a D-cup and wanted to flaunt it). I was only proposing to go a step further.

aNytiMe

<!--quoteo(post=1695760:date=Dec 10 2008, 11:41 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hawkeye @ Dec 10 2008, 11:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now you're saying we should have a female model only for the purposes of realism? Screw realism!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having female "marines" is the opposite of realism.

Sirot

The amount of sexist remarks in this forum makes me go : (

PseudoKnight

<!--quoteo(post=1695760:date=Dec 10 2008, 03:41 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hawkeye @ Dec 10 2008, 03:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now you're saying we should have a female model only for the purposes of realism? Screw realism!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That is precisely NOT what I said.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The amount of sexist remarks in this forum makes me go : (<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If you're going to have a thread about a gender specific model, you have to talk about gender specifics. I'd like to see which remarks in particular you find "sexist."

I'm actually discussing this because I kind of think it's a funny discussion. My overall thought is that it's so unimportant that we might as well leave it be unless there's other reasons they have to go in and change things. If it looks 'cool' when it's finally rigged, then it's fine.

Sirot

Sorry for the snappy remark, I wasn't intentionally trying to be offensive but just wanted to look sort of disgusted with some things that go around here. I was mostly referring to the "Having female "marines" is the opposite of realism." and how often people suggest to attribute classes by gender (i.e. female marines become faster but have less health). : /

Hawkeye

Well I mean I agree that gender equality is important, but lets face it. That's not the reason why we'd add a female marine model to Natural Selection, not because it is not "realistic" but because it's simply more fun having a selection of models to choose from. Personalizes the game without allowing custom models that would probably have giant pickle marines and dog skulks.

Align

<!--quoteo(post=1695807:date=Dec 11 2008, 01:49 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Dec 11 2008, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having female "marines" is the opposite of realism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--quoteo(post=1695811:date=Dec 11 2008, 02:40 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Dec 11 2008, 02:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The amount of sexist remarks in this forum makes me go : (<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Well. It's true.


For our time period at any rate..

SentrySteve

The only way a player should be able to tell that a particular marine is female is by any in-game voice commands. Visually, there shouldn't be any noticeable difference.

Sirot

<!--quoteo(post=1695847:date=Dec 11 2008, 06:01 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Dec 11 2008, 06:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well. It's true.
For our time period at any rate..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

In the western world (both the americas and europe), it is more common to have female soldiers even with the social stigma.

Align

Than male? Somehow I doubt that.

aNytiMe

<!--quoteo(post=1695886:date=Dec 11 2008, 06:01 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Dec 11 2008, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695886"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the western world (both the americas and europe), it is more common to have female soldiers even with the social stigma.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isn't the social stigma that makes it less realistic. There are physiological differences between the two sexes. Ignoring those is actually sexist.

There are feminists that argue that female athletes should participate in the male leagues. The truth is that they will be so outcompeted by even run of the mill male teams that they will no longer have any interest in sport. Also, male athletes can limp away from injuries that would be career shattering for females.

Some of the reason females are relegated away from combat roles:
More prone to ligament & skeletomuscular injuries
Smaller bone structure/weaker frame
Females don't have the same physical strength or endurance as males, especially in the upper body.
Females are more susceptible to short term stress, which is what counts in combat (females are much less susceptible to long term depression though)

Sirot

I didn't say it was more common than male soldiers. But more common overall.

Yes, there are differences between the sexes. If NS2 was going to be all about hand-to-hand combat, females would be at a disadvantage because males got more testosterone. This is however is in the future where the majority of the combat is done with guns and there probably are advanced armors to reduce any disadvantage between the sexes to a unnoticeable level.

The thing is that NS2 is game and not a philosophy debate. If someone wants to play a female soldier for the marines, all the power to them.

aNytiMe

<!--quoteo(post=1695895:date=Dec 11 2008, 06:25 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Dec 11 2008, 06:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing is that NS2 is game and not a philosophy debate. If someone wants to play a female soldier for the marines, all the power to them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is exactly why any differences between the sexes need to be ignored.

Sirot

...what the hell are you talking about then?

You, at first attack the idea the idea of women marines than as the conclusion to your argument, say the differences should entirely ignored. What was the point of arguing with me if we were after the same conclusion?