I dont get why everybody keeps talking about bhop. Bhop is just a glitch to move _faster_, its not really a movement skill.
Movement skill for me is to run at a marine in open field, moving evasive so hits are minimal. If you bunnyhop in such a scenario, its more likely to get killed because you move predictable to a certain extent. Sure, you also get faster and IMHO you shouldnt get faster. A lot of people always think that players who can bhop a little have great movement skills. I think thats a stupid assumption. Bhoping is not that hard to do, especially with newb-scripts like jump on mousewheel and whatnot. The real skill is to move intelligently in the right situations. <b>Point is, most people who are good at bhopping are also very good at movement skills. Another point here is though, that bhop is not the essence of their skill. In a game without bhop-glitch, they would still own the enemy because of their movement skill, not because of bhop.</b>
To me, the only thing really needed is maybe air control and maybe queued jumping, but WITHOUT the bhop glitch of getting faster.
<!--quoteo(post=1700932:date=Feb 20 2009, 12:12 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(steppin'razor @ Feb 20 2009, 12:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would hate new players of NS2 learning the game and be put off by see more advanced players bouncing around at seemingly unattainable high speeds, and have no idea how to replicate it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cite an example of this please.
Oh wait you can't. Because it's <b>never happened</b>.
If Valve has learned something from TFC and the early CS versions, its that trick-games (where there are small maybe intentional kept glitches that the more skilled players use) are not perceived very well by the general (casual) gamer audience.
There are no bhop or comparable engine glitches in their newer games.
<!--quoteo(post=1700983:date=Feb 20 2009, 05:27 PM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(w0dk4 @ Feb 20 2009, 05:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Valve has learned something from TFC and the early CS versions, its that trick-games (where there are small maybe intentional kept glitches that the more skilled players use) are not perceived very well by the general (casual) gamer audience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Valve's newer multiplayer games are also universally worse games than their previous ones such as TFC and CS1.6.
It surprises me how many people dislike bhoping. Up until now i thought it was a non-issue for NS players who, in general come from a skilled player base. Are those who are against bhoping against all forms of skill based movement? What about strafe jumping? (ie et Quake wars and RCW enemy territory)
Edit: We can do without the personal insults. - KFDM
<!--quoteo(post=1700997:date=Feb 20 2009, 07:22 PM:name=au.zilla)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(au.zilla @ Feb 20 2009, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It surprises me how many people dislike bhoping. Up until now i thought it was a non-issue for NS players who, in general come from a skilled player base. Are those who are against bhoping against all forms of skill based movement? What about strafe jumping? (ie et Quake wars and RCW enemy territory)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You fail to realize that just because somebody is against bhop, they are not automatically against movement skill. Most people that are against bhop are against the glitch where you gain speed, not against the general idea of air-control that allows bunny hopping.
Offtopic btw.: You cannot compare Quake bhop to HL bhop since in Quake you dont really have air control like in Half Life and the techniques used are also completely different.
<!--quoteo(post=1700999:date=Feb 20 2009, 11:31 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(w0dk4 @ Feb 20 2009, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You fail to realize that just because somebody is against bhop, they are not automatically against movement skill. Most people that are against bhop are against the glitch where you gain speed, not against the general idea of air-control that allows bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main reason i just posted my previous comment was to judge whether or not people against bhop are against movement skill. I do not fail to realize anything I'm just asking my peers a simple question. If you don't like bhop's what do you like?
If you sensed venom in my post and wanted a confrontation or clarification know that i was trying to provoke some one in particular not a view point.
Violently? behave. (oh i see you removed your comment, good choice)
Strafe Jumping, Wall Strafing, etc is for all intent and purposes the same as Bhopping... its a result of physics errors in the engine.
The only "skill based movement" that I remember working and actually finding useful as well as intuitive is from UT2003-2004. Not only is the wall-jumping and double-stepping fun, useful and pretty easy to do... depending on the intelligence of the person using it, it becomes a deadly tool or a laughable joke.
This is what is needed, something that everyone can do without having to take lessons, rebind keys or ask for help, yet it scales in usefulness to the skill of the user.
<!--quoteo(post=1700995:date=Feb 20 2009, 01:19 PM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(marks @ Feb 20 2009, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Valve's newer multiplayer games are also universally worse games than their previous ones such as TFC and CS1.6.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT.
If you don't like bhop, put your collective nerdrage together and build a better system. I've never seen anyone able to do this though, which is why I argue in favor of airspeed control and bunnyhop - but good luck - I'm all for forward progress.
<!--quoteo(post=1701011:date=Feb 20 2009, 06:53 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 20 2009, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you don't like bhop, put your collective nerdrage together and build a better system. I've never seen anyone able to do this though, which is why I argue in favor of airspeed control and bunnyhop - but good luck - I'm all for forward progress.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Its not about liking or not liking. 2) Behave with the nerdrage insult, you know as well as we do you're no less of a nerd. 3) Why do we need or would we want to create something that replaces bunnyhop? Just remove it and leave it at that.
I, like many others, just want the bugs from the old game removed. If it is decided that to balance the game the aliens need to be more agile, and creating a dodge/movement system satisfies that need, so be it.
oh, and just to attempt and quash these stupid threads (of which radix makes like 3 a week, lol) ...
The game is going to 360, you need to take a look at yourself if you think anything other than forwards, backwards, strafe and jump will constitute the movement paradigm. Ofcourse stuff like Leap, Charge and Blink will probably remain, but those are attacks.
<!--quoteo(post=1701020:date=Feb 20 2009, 08:13 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 20 2009, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry kk I thought Flayra and co. were trying to build a good game, not copy NS to source and remove the gameplay - my mistake.
Also xbox will be a totally separate revision. They can keep bhop for pc and remove it for xbox no harm no foul.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They've already said they are thinking of features with the 360 in mind. Bhop is out because they aren't going to code it in and it's unlikely they'll even code air control. Those things have never been seen as influential or important by the dev team (as they can't do them.)
Also the reason why there is so much outcry over bhop in the forums is because bad players that can't do difficult things and don't want to learn how to do them tend to be the most vocal for some reason. It happens in every game. There is always a small, extremely vocal segment of the community that can't play the game well as defined by others but play it well in their eyes and try to get everyone else to play by their rules and playstyle. It's like they try to be the best by changing the rules not by abiding by or learning them.
Again Radix. No one here is interested in a meaningful conversation. Either make a new thread and discuss this with yourself, ask players in-game what they think (as the forums are not an example of the actual player base), or have a discussion with me and asmo and some others and post that. All this gets you is a lot of butthurt players whining about how hard bhop is and that it should be removed because it wasn't designed to be in quake1. Even though the dev team could have easily removed air control, bhop, strafe jump, and double jump.
<b>No one</b> ever quit the game because they couldn't bhop or because they got bhopped. People <b>do</b> quit the game because they get killed by straight-line or adadadadadad skulks because they are reloading and their teammates can't cover them.
<!--quoteo(post=1700966:date=Feb 20 2009, 03:39 PM:name=Prefix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prefix @ Feb 20 2009, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't think it should be nerfed at all, the fact that there is so many different degrees of speed is what makes it great, and taking that away is pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wasn't it nerfed in NS? At least I don't remember seeing any skulks moving at 400% of the normal speed.
PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1701039:date=Feb 20 2009, 09:59 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Feb 20 2009, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wasn't it nerfed in NS? At least I don't remember seeing any skulks moving at 400% of the normal speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, sorry, to correct myself I meant the form of bhopping that is in the current NS, for reasons of speed/realism alone, it shouldn't be nerfed any more.
<!--quoteo(post=1701020:date=Feb 20 2009, 03:13 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 20 2009, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry kk I thought Flayra and co. were trying to build a good game, not copy NS to source and remove the gameplay - my mistake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, I think this could be NS2's biggest problem. What do we know about NS2 so far?
1) Smaller maps 2) They're porting the game to 360 at some point (they're assuring us that it's being developed as a PC game, but if they're thinking about a 360 later there's no doubt features/ideas may not be implemented due their inability to perfrom such ideas on a 360 box/controller) 3) They've already added an 'alien commander' in an attempt make both sides more even which is completely understandable and may even make for a better game, but it reduces the whole 'two completely different sides' thing so it makes me uneasy. 4) They've said bunny hop won't be in (I consider this a negative since it's mastery is such a huge part of movement skill)
As for as adding something productive, I hope whatever new system they add has enough depth for players to learn and become noticeably better at their movement. The only system I can imagine with such depth is bunny hoping. I would love to see the current system bhop system in NS2, but add a in depth in game tutorial to remove some of that "how is he doing that?" feeling newbies may have when watching an experienced bunny hopper.
I haven't read this whole thread, but a good system I've seen in another game to make bhopping easier to learn is to make the person jump upon hitting the ground if they released their jump key from the last jump and held it down again in air. This lets a person learning bhoping to not be blocked by having to bind jump to scroll wheel or have perfect timing.
<!--quoteo(post=1701064:date=Feb 20 2009, 09:02 PM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pyromaniac @ Feb 20 2009, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701064"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I haven't read this whole thread, but a good system I've seen in another game to make bhopping easier to learn is to make the person jump upon hitting the ground if they released their jump key from the last jump and held it down again in air. This lets a person learning bhoping to not be blocked by having to bind jump to scroll wheel or have perfect timing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has been suggested a few times and is a great idea. It's usually called queued jumping or "quake style jumping".
<!--quoteo(post=1700995:date=Feb 21 2009, 04:19 AM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(marks @ Feb 21 2009, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Valve's newer multiplayer games are also universally worse games than their previous ones such as TFC and CS1.6.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1.5 was the best
TFC better than TF2? Two different games in my mind. One encourages (sometimes forces) teamplay, the other encourages grenade timing and bhopping on a massive scale (not a bad thing, just a diff. game)
Now 1.6 on the other hand...SO ######, couldn't agree more there
I don't care if Flayra puts in Bhop in the game or not. We'll die all the same, just with a different ratio
<!--quoteo(post=1701054:date=Feb 21 2009, 12:22 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(w0dk4 @ Feb 21 2009, 12:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its funny to see how the majority defines
movement skill == bunny hopping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know if that's even essential for the thread. Bhop is part of the movement control and it adds up to the game a significant amount on various levels, such as twitch skills, teamwork and decisionmaking. That's what matters to me.
Most of all I'm worried that some of the valuable elements of bhop get ignored in NS2 design just because people aren't aware of them.
Bhop is one of my favourite game mechanics of all time. But it is time for it to be removed. It is not intuitive, is difficult to learn and requires things like binding jump to mousewheel or jump scripts to perform.
However, it is fun still, even in games like TF2 where you can bhop but you get little to no movement increase in speed, it still makes you movement interesting, you can dodge, curve, and make your movement a little more interesting than just holding forward when holding forward is boring.
However in NS, bhop is such a dominant game mechanic. It requires great skill, can make you able to dodge, gain great speeds and dominate opponents.
I do not think NS2 should have bhop, but i do not know if they should replace it with something else, or if they should just not have any tricky movement things at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1700858:date=Feb 19 2009, 04:11 PM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 19 2009, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Forgive me if I'm incorrect: it's been a long time since I gave up HL1 Mods, but - if I remember correctly - all the big mods for HL1 either disabled or very greatly limited the erroneous behaviour of bunnyhopping and airspeed in the engine.
CS - Punishes use of jump TFC - Left Airspeed control alone, greatly minimised bunnyhop efficiency to something like 170% movement speed (before was well over 400%) DOD - Removed exploiting with stamina NS - Marines were stopped from bunnyhopping, aliens limited<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You also seem to have ignored that neither TFC or NS is a 'realism' mod and that NS has Aliens which don't need to conform to any set rules about movement abilities. Could it be that the other mods took it out because it's unrealistic and they are 'realism' shooters?
Bunnyhopping is an engine bug. Some mods took it out, some kept it in, but none remained in the game by mistake. If they are still in the game it's because the developers believe it adds something to the gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why on earth would a developer want to balance a game around a mistake of the engine creator, let alone copy the mistake to their new engine. it just doesn't make sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Rocket jumping was originally a bug (in Quake iirc?), but it has been copied 100 times over by games since.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if you give me this elitist crap, all it says to me is "If I weren't able to bunnyhop I'd be just as good at the game as Joe Noob."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's more that people wouldn't be having as much fun playing against Joe Noob as they would be if they were playing against someone with bunnyhop (doesn't matter if they are a noob or not it would still be better than shooting walker Skulks, but the problem at the moment is noobs can't pick it up easily enough). Bunnyhop is fun because it makes movement less predictable, which adds more variables to the game without it becoming a mess, that creates unique challenges every minute of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1700859:date=Feb 19 2009, 04:13 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Feb 19 2009, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700859"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So maybe some hud display to report your speed would help with whatever advanced movement is implemented.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Some sort of feedback to the player that they were at -or near enough- max speed would help people learn bunnyhop. Right now it's easy to see when you're gaining speed, but harder to see when you make minor losses in speed due to small errors.
<!--QuoteBegin-'commofdoom'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE('commofdoom')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->B) People who visit (troll) these forums already have formed opinions (biases) and no minds will be changed. There were/are plenty of opportunities for people to learn how to bhop and learn how it effects/affects gameplay and how it adds depth. And also that depth is what makes NS the great game it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not everyone who visits these forums posts. All of the 'opportunities' you mention were for learning outside the game. There was nothing in NS that explained to you that <b>A:</b> Bunnyhop exists, and <b>B:</b> It is not a bug and is fair use, and <b>C:</b> It can be performed like so.
If something exists in the game, and its discovery in itself is not designed to be the focus of the challenge, then it needs to be taught within the game. This can be via <b>guidance</b>, such as intuitive presentation (e.g. the person who can heal you looks like a doctor, not like an identical soldier with a medpack in his hand) or <b>instruction</b> (in-game/loading screen tooltips, tutorials).
<!--QuoteBegin-'commofdoom'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE('commofdoom')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->E) Puzl, requiring/allowing +forward in a bhop would actually make it more difficult as you'd have to use two fingers on your left hand as opposed to one. Allowing players to do so would just complicate bunnyhopping by allowing them to form habits that are counter-productive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The point Puzl is trying to make is that if it's optional to hold forward then nobody will be punished for pushing it when trying to bhop. At the moment you are punished for thinking that to continue going forward, you hold forward.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also xbox will be a totally separate revision. They can keep bhop for pc and remove it for xbox no harm no foul.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You have little understanding of the business of making games. It does not make sense to spend a lot of time supporting a fairly large feature only to cut it when you port to another platform, especially when the capabilities of both platforms are largely similar and there is no reason why the feature can't be supported on both platforms with some design modifications. You are arguing that bhop is an important aspect of NS's gameplay but at the same time saying the console gamers 'won't be missing anything' if it gets cut for Xbox.
I'll miss bunnyhop, but I really hope there is some kind of air control for leap. Curving leaps around corners was awesome and it'll be a huge loss if that's not possible in NS2
If sprints going to be included for Rines, perhaps a system based around this could work for Aliens to give them more movement options. If you tapped sprint and jump at the same time for example could jump much further than normal in whichever direction, almost like a mini leap (with air control still). Would make Skulk movements much harder to predict, give players more control but would be simple enough for new players to grasp.
Arguing that bunnyhop should be out because of how quirky it is and airspeed control should remain (and be highly utilized in the design) is a defensible position. I don't share it, but I'm not going to say it wouldn't work.
With that said, the only three reasons for removing bhop itself are to make development easier, to put atmosphere over gameplay, or to quell the irritation of bad players who willfully won't improve and expect the game to make them better for them. The first reason is understandable, though I can't imagine it's that hard to implement since they have the Source engine code (and it can be done in Source very, very easily) - the other two reasons indicate a design that intentionally cuts portions of its own fun level to spite the skill cap.
Prioritizing atmosphere over gameplay is a mistake.
Anyone looking over the Engine QA again, Movement will be handled by LUA, so go learn to code and create a mod where you and your bhop buddies can be annexed, that way you wont be ruining everyone else's games with your whining about bhop <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1701133:date=Feb 22 2009, 06:00 PM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 22 2009, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You talk some crap, don't ya, Radix.
Anyone looking over the Engine QA again, Movement will be handled by LUA, so go learn to code and create a mod where you and your bhop buddies can be annexed, that way you wont be ruining everyone else's games with your whining about bhop <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Bhop is just a glitch to move _faster_, its not really a movement skill.
Movement skill for me is to run at a marine in open field, moving evasive so hits are minimal. If you bunnyhop in such a scenario, its more likely to get killed because you move predictable to a certain extent. Sure, you also get faster and IMHO you shouldnt get faster. A lot of people always think that players who can bhop a little have great movement skills. I think thats a stupid assumption. Bhoping is not that hard to do, especially with newb-scripts like jump on mousewheel and whatnot. The real skill is to move intelligently in the right situations. <b>Point is, most people who are good at bhopping are also very good at movement skills. Another point here is though, that bhop is not the essence of their skill. In a game without bhop-glitch, they would still own the enemy because of their movement skill, not because of bhop.</b>
To me, the only thing really needed is maybe air control and maybe queued jumping, but WITHOUT the bhop glitch of getting faster.
Cite an example of this please.
Oh wait you can't. Because it's <b>never happened</b>.
If Valve has learned something from TFC and the early CS versions, its that trick-games (where there are small maybe intentional kept glitches that the more skilled players use) are not perceived very well by the general (casual) gamer audience.
There are no bhop or comparable engine glitches in their newer games.
Valve's newer multiplayer games are also universally worse games than their previous ones such as TFC and CS1.6.
Edit: We can do without the personal insults. - KFDM
You fail to realize that just because somebody is against bhop, they are not automatically against movement skill.
Most people that are against bhop are against the glitch where you gain speed, not against the general idea of air-control that allows bunny hopping.
Offtopic btw.: You cannot compare Quake bhop to HL bhop since in Quake you dont really have air control like in Half Life and the techniques used are also completely different.
Most people that are against bhop are against the glitch where you gain speed, not against the general idea of air-control that allows bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main reason i just posted my previous comment was to judge whether or not people against bhop are against movement skill. I do not fail to realize anything I'm just asking my peers a simple question. If you don't like bhop's what do you like?
If you sensed venom in my post and wanted a confrontation or clarification know that i was trying to provoke some one in particular not a view point.
Strafe Jumping, Wall Strafing, etc is for all intent and purposes the same as Bhopping... its a result of physics errors in the engine.
The only "skill based movement" that I remember working and actually finding useful as well as intuitive is from UT2003-2004. Not only is the wall-jumping and double-stepping fun, useful and pretty easy to do... depending on the intelligence of the person using it, it becomes a deadly tool or a laughable joke.
This is what is needed, something that everyone can do without having to take lessons, rebind keys or ask for help, yet it scales in usefulness to the skill of the user.
QFT.
If you don't like bhop, put your collective nerdrage together and build a better system. I've never seen anyone able to do this though, which is why I argue in favor of airspeed control and bunnyhop - but good luck - I'm all for forward progress.
1) Its not about liking or not liking.
2) Behave with the nerdrage insult, you know as well as we do you're no less of a nerd.
3) Why do we need or would we want to create something that replaces bunnyhop? Just remove it and leave it at that.
I, like many others, just want the bugs from the old game removed.
If it is decided that to balance the game the aliens need to be more agile, and creating a dodge/movement system satisfies that need, so be it.
The game is going to 360, you need to take a look at yourself if you think anything other than forwards, backwards, strafe and jump will constitute the movement paradigm. Ofcourse stuff like Leap, Charge and Blink will probably remain, but those are attacks.
Also xbox will be a totally separate revision. They can keep bhop for pc and remove it for xbox no harm no foul.
Also xbox will be a totally separate revision. They can keep bhop for pc and remove it for xbox no harm no foul.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They've already said they are thinking of features with the 360 in mind. Bhop is out because they aren't going to code it in and it's unlikely they'll even code air control. Those things have never been seen as influential or important by the dev team (as they can't do them.)
Also the reason why there is so much outcry over bhop in the forums is because bad players that can't do difficult things and don't want to learn how to do them tend to be the most vocal for some reason. It happens in every game. There is always a small, extremely vocal segment of the community that can't play the game well as defined by others but play it well in their eyes and try to get everyone else to play by their rules and playstyle. It's like they try to be the best by changing the rules not by abiding by or learning them.
Again Radix. No one here is interested in a meaningful conversation. Either make a new thread and discuss this with yourself, ask players in-game what they think (as the forums are not an example of the actual player base), or have a discussion with me and asmo and some others and post that. All this gets you is a lot of butthurt players whining about how hard bhop is and that it should be removed because it wasn't designed to be in quake1. Even though the dev team could have easily removed air control, bhop, strafe jump, and double jump.
<b>No one</b> ever quit the game because they couldn't bhop or because they got bhopped. People <b>do</b> quit the game because they get killed by straight-line or adadadadadad skulks because they are reloading and their teammates can't cover them.
Wasn't it nerfed in NS? At least I don't remember seeing any skulks moving at 400% of the normal speed.
Yeah, sorry, to correct myself I meant the form of bhopping that is in the current NS, for reasons of speed/realism alone, it shouldn't be nerfed any more.
Unfortunately, I think this could be NS2's biggest problem. What do we know about NS2 so far?
1) Smaller maps
2) They're porting the game to 360 at some point (they're assuring us that it's being developed as a PC game, but if they're thinking about a 360 later there's no doubt features/ideas may not be implemented due their inability to perfrom such ideas on a 360 box/controller)
3) They've already added an 'alien commander' in an attempt make both sides more even which is completely understandable and may even make for a better game, but it reduces the whole 'two completely different sides' thing so it makes me uneasy.
4) They've said bunny hop won't be in (I consider this a negative since it's mastery is such a huge part of movement skill)
As for as adding something productive, I hope whatever new system they add has enough depth for players to learn and become noticeably better at their movement. The only system I can imagine with such depth is bunny hoping. I would love to see the current system bhop system in NS2, but add a in depth in game tutorial to remove some of that "how is he doing that?" feeling newbies may have when watching an experienced bunny hopper.
movement skill == bunny hopping
This has been suggested a few times and is a great idea. It's usually called queued jumping or "quake style jumping".
1.5 was the best
Now 1.6 on the other hand...SO ######, couldn't agree more there
I don't care if Flayra puts in Bhop in the game or not. We'll die all the same, just with a different ratio
movement skill == bunny hopping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if that's even essential for the thread. Bhop is part of the movement control and it adds up to the game a significant amount on various levels, such as twitch skills, teamwork and decisionmaking. That's what matters to me.
Most of all I'm worried that some of the valuable elements of bhop get ignored in NS2 design just because people aren't aware of them.
However, it is fun still, even in games like TF2 where you can bhop but you get little to no movement increase in speed, it still makes you movement interesting, you can dodge, curve, and make your movement a little more interesting than just holding forward when holding forward is boring.
However in NS, bhop is such a dominant game mechanic. It requires great skill, can make you able to dodge, gain great speeds and dominate opponents.
I do not think NS2 should have bhop, but i do not know if they should replace it with something else, or if they should just not have any tricky movement things at all.
CS - Punishes use of jump
TFC - Left Airspeed control alone, greatly minimised bunnyhop efficiency to something like 170% movement speed (before was well over 400%)
DOD - Removed exploiting with stamina
NS - Marines were stopped from bunnyhopping, aliens limited<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You also seem to have ignored that neither TFC or NS is a 'realism' mod and that NS has Aliens which don't need to conform to any set rules about movement abilities. Could it be that the other mods took it out because it's unrealistic and they are 'realism' shooters?
Bunnyhopping is an engine bug. Some mods took it out, some kept it in, but none remained in the game by mistake. If they are still in the game it's because the developers believe it adds something to the gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why on earth would a developer want to balance a game around a mistake of the engine creator, let alone copy the mistake to their new engine.
it just doesn't make sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Rocket jumping was originally a bug (in Quake iirc?), but it has been copied 100 times over by games since.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if you give me this elitist crap, all it says to me is "If I weren't able to bunnyhop I'd be just as good at the game as Joe Noob."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's more that people wouldn't be having as much fun playing against Joe Noob as they would be if they were playing against someone with bunnyhop (doesn't matter if they are a noob or not it would still be better than shooting walker Skulks, but the problem at the moment is noobs can't pick it up easily enough). Bunnyhop is fun because it makes movement less predictable, which adds more variables to the game without it becoming a mess, that creates unique challenges every minute of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1700859:date=Feb 19 2009, 04:13 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Feb 19 2009, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700859"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So maybe some hud display to report your speed would help with whatever advanced movement is implemented.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Some sort of feedback to the player that they were at -or near enough- max speed would help people learn bunnyhop. Right now it's easy to see when you're gaining speed, but harder to see when you make minor losses in speed due to small errors.
<!--QuoteBegin-'commofdoom'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE('commofdoom')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->B) People who visit (troll) these forums already have formed opinions (biases) and no minds will be changed. There were/are plenty of opportunities for people to learn how to bhop and learn how it effects/affects gameplay and how it adds depth. And also that depth is what makes NS the great game it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not everyone who visits these forums posts. All of the 'opportunities' you mention were for learning outside the game. There was nothing in NS that explained to you that <b>A:</b> Bunnyhop exists, and <b>B:</b> It is not a bug and is fair use, and <b>C:</b> It can be performed like so.
If something exists in the game, and its discovery in itself is not designed to be the focus of the challenge, then it needs to be taught within the game. This can be via <b>guidance</b>, such as intuitive presentation (e.g. the person who can heal you looks like a doctor, not like an identical soldier with a medpack in his hand) or <b>instruction</b> (in-game/loading screen tooltips, tutorials).
<!--QuoteBegin-'commofdoom'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE('commofdoom')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->E) Puzl, requiring/allowing +forward in a bhop would actually make it more difficult as you'd have to use two fingers on your left hand as opposed to one. Allowing players to do so would just complicate bunnyhopping by allowing them to form habits that are counter-productive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The point Puzl is trying to make is that if it's optional to hold forward then nobody will be punished for pushing it when trying to bhop. At the moment you are punished for thinking that to continue going forward, you hold forward.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also xbox will be a totally separate revision. They can keep bhop for pc and remove it for xbox no harm no foul.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You have little understanding of the business of making games. It does not make sense to spend a lot of time supporting a fairly large feature only to cut it when you port to another platform, especially when the capabilities of both platforms are largely similar and there is no reason why the feature can't be supported on both platforms with some design modifications. You are arguing that bhop is an important aspect of NS's gameplay but at the same time saying the console gamers 'won't be missing anything' if it gets cut for Xbox.
With that said, the only three reasons for removing bhop itself are to make development easier, to put atmosphere over gameplay, or to quell the irritation of bad players who willfully won't improve and expect the game to make them better for them. The first reason is understandable, though I can't imagine it's that hard to implement since they have the Source engine code (and it can be done in Source very, very easily) - the other two reasons indicate a design that intentionally cuts portions of its own fun level to spite the skill cap.
Prioritizing atmosphere over gameplay is a mistake.
Anyone looking over the Engine QA again, Movement will be handled by LUA, so go learn to code and create a mod where you and your bhop buddies can be annexed, that way you wont be ruining everyone else's games with your whining about bhop <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Anyone looking over the Engine QA again, Movement will be handled by LUA, so go learn to code and create a mod where you and your bhop buddies can be annexed, that way you wont be ruining everyone else's games with your whining about bhop <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really are such an idiot.
What, are you 12?