<!--quoteo(post=1701551:date=Feb 26 2009, 08:25 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 26 2009, 08:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In little league no one throws curveballs. Are they still playing baseball, or is it impossible to play baseball without curveballs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
kids in little league (and really up until their junior/senior years of high school) at told NOT to throw breaking balls (like a curveball) because it puts massive strain on the elbow ligaments, and tends to damage a youth's elbow more so than a developed man's
It was a rather poor analogy though, Radix
your quoted analogy makes more sense though, but seems to argue that Bhop is not necessary for NS(2), when converted to NS terms
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1701351:date=Feb 25 2009, 06:00 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 25 2009, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is throwing a curveball part of the learning curve in Baseball?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apart from the pun that made me snicker, this is actually a good question and highly relevant to the subject of bhopping: Why is this different from NS' bhop?
Due to an artifact of the "engine" of reality (someone left the Navier-Stokes' equation in there by accident), the baseball players can use curving to gain an advantage once they master it. So far, it's the real life analogy of bhopping.
The real difference lies in the fact that NS2 will not be a well established game and culture the moment it comes out. The game is required to accomodate for new players to succeed. New players, in general, don't like the notion of training to become good in a game, and bhopping did require quite a bit of time and effort to master. In fact, NS' gameplay eventually evolved so that bhop became close to mandatory for the alien gameplay. How do you justify to a new player that he or she has to train prior to actually playing the game?
This, among many other obstacles, made NS' steep learning curve a bit too unfriendly.
(And that's a shame, because I quite enjoyed bhopping along.)
I think for a lot of us, bhop came very naturally. I'm assuming a lot of us had experience in other HL mods that had airspeed control in some degree. How was everyone's experience with learning it? I don't think we have had a general census of this.
I originally played a lot of CS back in the day and then when surf first popped up in Aus (oceana) and kz I got right into that. I first started bhoping in NS inside the RR just from seeing other people do it, then learn't that it was a powerful tool as a skulk. I eventually incorporated it into marine to some degree with going up ramps and on railing.
I think that with the new engine NS2 will have skill based movement for the skulk but it wont be as difficult to understand, and of course even though I'm sick of using the word, 'intuitive'.
<!--quoteo(post=1701567:date=Feb 27 2009, 04:20 AM:name=tankefugl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tankefugl @ Feb 27 2009, 04:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->New players ... don't like the notion of training to become good in a game, and bhopping did require quite a bit of time and effort to master. In fact, NS' gameplay eventually evolved so that bhop became close to mandatory for the alien gameplay. How do you justify to a new player that he or she has to train prior to actually playing the game?
This, among many other obstacles, made NS' steep learning curve a bit too unfriendly.
(And that's a shame, because I quite enjoyed bhopping along.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1701575:date=Feb 27 2009, 08:45 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(steppin'razor @ Feb 27 2009, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701575"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think for a lot of us, bhop came very naturally. I'm assuming a lot of us had experience in other HL mods that had airspeed control in some degree. How was everyone's experience with learning it? I don't think we have had a general census of this.
I originally played a lot of CS back in the day and then when surf first popped up in Aus (oceana) and kz I got right into that. I first started bhoping in NS inside the RR just from seeing other people do it, then learn't that it was a powerful tool as a skulk. I eventually incorporated it into marine to some degree with going up ramps and on railing.
I think that with the new engine NS2 will have skill based movement for the skulk but it wont be as difficult to understand, and of course even though I'm sick of using the word, 'intuitive'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That time to master you speak of is bunnyhop's charm and why it's such an important part of gameplay. The barrier to using bhop in the first place doesn't come from the airspeed or repeated jumping - no one in quake cares about bhop because the queued jump system allows players to learn it with ease. <b>Bunnyhop fails to be intuitive because of poor implementation in NS, not because the mechanic is flawed.</b>
Let's assume for a minute that you're both right and that bhop is both <b>mandatory</b> and <b>prohibitively unintuitive for marketing purposes</b>. What would you propose to replace it? Certainly not wigglewalk or wallstrafe, side jumping loses all the finesse and replay value that bhop affords. What possible replacement could you give?
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Sure, it sounds great to say, "Let's replace bhop with something better." Until of course, you actually sit down and try to find it. There is nothing better - I defy anyone to suggest it.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
---
Of course, the facts are that bhop is neither required to play (which is the purpose of the curveball I threw yesterday that flew over most of your heads) - nor is it prohibitive from a marketing perspective.
<b>Games are designed to be played repeatedly and to be improved upon slightly each time. The only thing bad about a hard game is when it's so hard to start out with that no one gets into it because of the barrier to entry. Bunnyhop does not create that barrier because you don't need it. It's nice to have, but like throwing curveballs, it can be taken or left depending on how much you care about being good.</b>
The only argument at this point is, "Well we don't want to make players work to be good at a game." Which is necessarily equivalent to saying "Well we don't want to let players outplay other players, we want all players to be forced to be exactly as good as one another." And I say bull###### - that's what gaming is about; to compete; to get better; to have fun by learning the best and most interesting facets of a system and exploiting them for your enjoyment and your team's benefit.
Any argument to the contrary must necessarily hinge on a slippery slope centered around the total dwarfing of a game's inter-player experience in favor of a niche objection to a beautifully simple, exceptionally replayable (albiet accidental), and demonstratively fun gameplay element.
I kept it broad because I don't know what skill based movement NS2 will have, I just said that properties that it will most likely include. Sometimes you are a bit blinded by the BHOP IS END ALL BE ALL argument. I like bhop, and I hope that there is a way to implement it into NS2 with the properties that I included, I do. If you read some of my posts you will understand I am for a intuitive version of bhop.
<!--quoteo(post=1701236:date=Feb 24 2009, 01:18 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Feb 24 2009, 01:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's just a silly statement. It's a part of the game, and as stated by many players here required for competitive play. It's absolutely part of the learning curve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its not.You guys are just used to it and thats it....nothing more.
<!--quoteo(post=1701524:date=Feb 26 2009, 10:05 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 26 2009, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm glad you prioritize realism over fun. You should become a professional game designer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i'm glad you prioritize fun over atmosphere/immersion..its just retarded and it ruins the atmosphere to me and im sure that it does to many people.YOU should become a professional game designer.
Here are my arguments against bhoping: -Atmosphere/immersion ,i consider it alot in games....and bhoping just completely breaks <u><b>BOTH</b></u> to me.Or are you gonna say to me that seeing people jumping around non-stop doesnt break the game atmosphere/immersion for you ? -Its unintuitve,very.
oh,and before anyone says that i dont like it because i dont know how to do it....i do know how to bhop....infact i do it very well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any argument to the contrary must necessarily hinge on a slippery slope centered around the total dwarfing of a game's inter-player experience in favor of a niche objection to a beautifully simple, exceptionally replayable (albiet<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->[sic]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> accidental), and demonstratively fun gameplay element.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Deciphered: <b><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro--><!--coloro:#9932CC--><span style="color:#9932CC"><!--/coloro-->If you don't agree with me, then you want to destroy player relationships with your views which only a few people have. Bunnyhopping is simple, replayable and fun... (but it was a mistake to have it in the first place.)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--></b><ol type='1'><li>... It makes no sense at all</li><li>... Using a bunch of hyperbole adjectives makes you look like a fool, not a clever debater.</li><li>... It's full of crap (inter-player experience<sup>?</sup>.. Beautifully simple<sup>?</sup>.. nice objection<sup>?</sup>)</li><li>... I've said it before... if you remove (read: don't add) bunnyhop, there's no clause to say it needs to be replaced by a better system (which according to you doesn't exist anyway.)</li></ol>
<!--quoteo(post=1701603:date=Feb 28 2009, 12:47 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 28 2009, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Sure, it sounds great to say, "Let's replace bhop with something better." Until of course, you actually sit down and try to find it. There is nothing better - I defy anyone to suggest it.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem with this line of thinking is that you're already familiar with bhop, you practically grew up with it - anything that's very different but yet serves the same purpose will be instinctively rejected, and you certainly won't give it enough time to get as good with it as you are at bhop.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only argument at this point is, "Well we don't want to make players work to be good at a game." Which is necessarily equivalent to saying "Well we don't want to let players outplay other players, we want all players to be forced to be exactly as good as one another." And I say bull###### - that's what gaming is about; to compete; to get better; to have fun by learning the best and most interesting facets of a system and exploiting them for your enjoyment and your team's benefit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That is not the argument that is put across. The argument is that we don't want players to have to work to be competant at the game, or as Tankfugl said, we don't want players do have to learn to play the game competantly by not playing the actual game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any argument to the contrary must necessarily hinge on a slippery slope centered around the total dwarfing of a game's inter-player experience in favor of a niche objection to a beautifully simple, exceptionally replayable (albiet accidental), and demonstratively fun gameplay element.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're right, but only because you invented an argument that wasn't being put forward by anyone. I don't really see the point in arguing with yourself.
At the moment, Alien players who can't bunnyhop die more, get places slower and give free resources to the Marine side unless they don't play Skulk at all, but in the first few minutes they will still die a lot until they can go Gorge or Lerk. The only thing they are good for is drawing fire away from more competant players, they cannot do 1v1s. If they stay as Gorge after dropping structures, they are basically removing one offensive unit that should be in play.
The game as it stands has a mechanic that detriments all players when there are newbies on the Alien team. If it is made easier to reach competance at bhop, the entire game and its playerbase benefits. I'd like to see any argument to the contrary.
Aiming is similar, with the massive exception that a genre revolves around aiming (one of the genres NS incorporates) whereas no genre revolves around bunnyhopping. Therefore far more people are already competant at aiming than at bunnyhopping when they enter the playerbase for the first time.
PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1701622:date=Feb 28 2009, 05:57 AM:name=tequebro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tequebro @ Feb 28 2009, 05:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its not.You guys are just used to it and thats it....nothing more. i'm glad you prioritize fun over atmosphere/immersion..its just retarded and it ruins the atmosphere to me and im sure that it does to many people.YOU should become a professional game designer.
Here are my arguments against bhoping: -Atmosphere/immersion ,i consider it alot in games....and bhoping just completely breaks <u><b>BOTH</b></u> to me.Or are you gonna say to me that seeing people jumping around non-stop doesnt break the game atmosphere/immersion for you ? -Its unintuitve,very. oh,and before anyone says that i dont like it because i dont know how to do it....i do know how to bhop....infact i do it very well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets define the word Game.
Game - an activity which is enjoyable and <b>FUN</b> for those playing. So why care so much about immersion, especially if it sacrifices it for FUN.
Yes it is unintuitive, that's the only real issue with it, but to make it to easy would ruin the whole thing anyway. A balance has to be struck.
<!--quoteo(post=1701634:date=Feb 28 2009, 11:43 AM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 28 2009, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701634"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Deciphered: <b></b><ol type='1'><li>... It makes no sense at all</li><li>... Using a bunch of hyperbole adjectives makes you look like a fool, not a clever debater.</li><li>... It's full of crap (inter-player experience<sup>?</sup>.. Beautifully simple<sup>?</sup>.. nice objection<sup>?</sup>)</li><li>... I've said it before... if you remove (read: don't add) bunnyhop, there's no clause to say it needs to be replaced by a better system (which according to you doesn't exist anyway.)</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being a complete spastic makes you look like a terrible debater.
<!--quoteo(post=1701636:date=Feb 28 2009, 08:17 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Feb 28 2009, 08:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with this line of thinking is that you're already familiar with bhop, you practically grew up with it - anything that's very different but yet serves the same purpose will be instinctively rejected, and you certainly won't give it enough time to get as good with it as you are at bhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The challenge to come up with anything that's very different but yet serves the same purpose has still remained completely unanswered.
<!--quoteo(post=1701637:date=Feb 28 2009, 07:55 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Feb 28 2009, 07:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At the moment, Alien players who can't bunnyhop die more, get places slower and give free resources to the Marine side unless they don't play Skulk at all, but in the first few minutes they will still die a lot until they can go Gorge or Lerk. The only thing they are good for is drawing fire away from more competant players, they cannot do 1v1s. If they stay as Gorge after dropping structures, they are basically removing one offensive unit that should be in play.
The game as it stands has a mechanic that detriments all players when there are newbies on the Alien team. If it is made easier to reach competance at bhop, the entire game and its playerbase benefits. I'd like to see any argument to the contrary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks who die in the early game do so because they do stupid things - specifically they fail to ambush. Stupid players will lose at any game, do you need more argument to the contrary? Bhop is irrelevant to how often these players are bested in games of skill.
Also, I agree with making bhop more accessible - you add queued jumping and the interface becomes natural - problem solved.
<!--quoteo(post=1701648:date=Feb 28 2009, 11:23 AM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 28 2009, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why does one have to come up with something to replace something that is a glitch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because its removal negatively impacts the game. If you suggest nothing to replace it you are arguing to create an inferior sequel on purpose.
<!--quoteo(post=1701643:date=Feb 28 2009, 09:32 AM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Feb 28 2009, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The challenge to come up with anything that's very different but yet serves the same purpose has still remained completely unanswered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1701643:date=Feb 28 2009, 03:32 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Feb 28 2009, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The challenge to come up with anything that's very different but yet serves the same purpose has still remained completely unanswered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd like to say that I've seen a number of suggestions, but in all honesty I can't actually remember any of them, much less give a link. Oh well...
Lets see: Quake style jumping or autojumping AND pressing forward not negatively affecting bhop should make it easy enough for everyone to figure it out on their own.
Movement skill should not make you faster, it should make you harder to hit. (dodge the bullets) So as long as there is air control it will be alright.
The real skill is not to bunny hop, but movement skill together with situational awareness.
I consider it completely LOW SKILL to bunny hop attack a marine on an open field. To jump around a corner in the air and then attack the marine is something different, but then again that doesnt require the glitch of getting faster when bhoping.
<!--quoteo(post=1701661:date=Feb 28 2009, 07:54 PM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(w0dk4 @ Feb 28 2009, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Movement skill should not make you faster, it should make you harder to hit. (dodge the bullets) So as long as there is air control it will be alright.
The real skill is not to bunny hop, but movement skill together with situational awareness.
I consider it completely LOW SKILL to bunny hop attack a marine on an open field. To jump around a corner in the air and then attack the marine is something different, but then again that doesnt require the glitch of getting faster when bhoping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a lot more diverse than that. Sometimes you want to dodge, sometimes you just want to roll in at full speed, sometimes you want to slow down and use the burst of speed a little later and most of the time you end up doing a bit of each. That's the beaty of it.
The 'slow' accelration (compare to usual FPS movement), certain routes at certain speeds, the marine awarness, marine objectives, alien map situation and such all add a huge amount of possibilities to skulk decisions. Those decisions are possible partitially because the movement is free and because there's enough of speed to make it challenging and quick for both the marine and skulk. The speed can be set so high because it's skill based and newbie marines aren't getting overrun by lightning quick newbie skulks.
Bhop and it's variations have proven to be absolutely marvellous when it comes to rewarding the decisions and situational awarness. That's why it's so enjoyable, not just because you can gain speed with it. Dodging on the other hand is just one of the options you've got on your disposal and most of the time it's a last resort move. There's no way you're going to dodge a decent aimer in any game for a longer period of time, I think.
<!--quoteo(post=1701649:date=Feb 28 2009, 05:04 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 28 2009, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701649"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks who die in the early game do so because they do stupid things - specifically they fail to ambush. Stupid players will lose at any game, do you need more argument to the contrary? Bhop is irrelevant to how often these players are bested in games of skill.
Also, I agree with making bhop more accessible - you add queued jumping and the interface becomes natural - problem solved. <b>Because its removal negatively impacts the game. If you suggest nothing to replace it you are arguing to create an inferior sequel on purpose.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> thats the point dude.you guys are SO USED to it that cant even imaggine playing it in a diffrent way....repeating: ITS NOT ESSENTIAL TO THE GAMEPLAY....as someone else said,it looks like you guys only play ns to bhop.dude ,reapeting AGAIN:YOU GUYS JUST ARE USED TO IT.NOTHING MORE.There is no need to replace it with anything ,there is no need to "dumb it down".....there is just the need to REMOVE it from the game and i go even further....from the whole ENGINE.
(yes i know ive basicly writen the same thing in the other post ive made but you guys seen to ignore it....so yea ,im repeating it.)
<!--quoteo(post=1701637:date=Feb 28 2009, 04:55 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Feb 28 2009, 04:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At the moment, Alien players who can't bunnyhop die more, get places slower and give free resources to the Marine side unless they don't play Skulk at all, but in the first few minutes they will still die a lot until they can go Gorge or Lerk. The only thing they are good for is drawing fire away from more competant players, they cannot do 1v1s. If they stay as Gorge after dropping structures, they are basically removing one offensive unit that should be in play.
The game as it stands has a mechanic that detriments all players when there are newbies on the Alien team. If it is made easier to reach competance at bhop, the entire game and its playerbase benefits. I'd like to see any argument to the contrary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is only true because the NS community is now very old and developed, there are very few new players and the average skill is actually pretty high. I remember when I started playing ns in Beta 5, most players did not bhop, and plenty of skulks that didn't do it did just fine. I remember having trouble shooting non-bhop skulks, and finding the odd player who actually could bunny hop very difficult to hit. I was playing on a low skill server perhaps, but back then their were low skill servers.
Fast forward 3 or 4 years, and suddenly most of the players can bhop to some degree, and 90% of marines are used to shooting bhop skulks, and suddenly bhop is required. It didn't used to be the case.
<!--quoteo(post=1701667:date=Feb 28 2009, 01:30 PM:name=tequebro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tequebro @ Feb 28 2009, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->thats the point dude.you guys are SO USED to it that cant even imaggine playing it in a diffrent way....repeating: ITS NOT ESSENTIAL TO THE GAMEPLAY....as someone else said,it looks like you guys only play ns to bhop.dude ,reapeting AGAIN:YOU GUYS JUST ARE USED TO IT.NOTHING MORE.There is no need to replace it with anything ,there is no need to "dumb it down".....there is just the need to REMOVE it from the game and i go even further....from the whole ENGINE.
(yes i know ive basicly writen the same thing in the other post ive made but you guys seen to ignore it....so yea ,im repeating it.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=105649&view=findpost&p=1700005" target="_blank">Old post explaining why you are wrong</a>
While you are right, technically, you could remove bhop and the game would still function, and would probably still be fun, but NS would be much worse off in the eyes of many of its players. There are many features in NS like this, that are suited to one play style over another. I think every one agrees that bhop could be more approachable, we are all for that. But taking it out leaves a big hole in what makes skulking fun and balanced at high levels of play
Long story short: Improve a feature that some people love. Try to make it more accessible, but do not take it out.
PS: your post looks like you typed it with boxing gloves on. Please type more clearly if you want to be listened to
<!--quoteo(post=1701678:date=Mar 1 2009, 02:16 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Mar 1 2009, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bhop isn't any more essential than aiming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
uhh, this is getting old
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's why it's so enjoyable, not just because you can gain speed with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, thats the very point. I think there is a big misunderstanding going on in all the "bhop" discussions. I am not against bhoping, I am against the speed-gain glitch!
I think there is hardly anybody against air-control which makes bhoping possible in the first place. Also, there shouldnt be a speed-loss for aliens after a jump, the speed should just stay constant.
But yeah, lets port all HL1 engine glitches, like wall strafing and rapid left-right-strafing and silent jump and whatever to NS2... OMG
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
I'm really looking forward to reading reviews on what Flayra and Co. decide to do about this in NS2. Do they keep bhop and make it more accessible? Or do they remove it and leave walker skulks with a) higher hitpoints or b) faster base speed or some alternative? Will be a lot of fun trying to balance it in beta testing between small and large games I'm sure.
<!--quoteo(post=1701667:date=Feb 28 2009, 09:30 PM:name=tequebro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tequebro @ Feb 28 2009, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->thats the point dude.you guys are SO USED to it that cant even imaggine playing it in a diffrent way....repeating: ITS NOT ESSENTIAL TO THE GAMEPLAY....as someone else said,it looks like you guys only play ns to bhop.dude ,reapeting AGAIN:YOU GUYS JUST ARE USED TO IT.NOTHING MORE.There is no need to replace it with anything ,there is no need to "dumb it down".....there is just the need to REMOVE it from the game and i go even further....from the whole ENGINE.
(yes i know ive basicly writen the same thing in the other post ive made but you guys seen to ignore it....so yea ,im repeating it.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I entered the FPS genre around.... 4 years ago. i.e. back when NS distributed v3.0. Thus, I didn't "grow up" with Quake or all this nonsense unlike many of my peers.
Yet I find bhop extremely cool and fun. Sure I can't execute it perfectly, but I love the possibilities. I especially came to love it after playing some Warsow. Oh gawds the air control they have in that game.
Sure it's frustrating when a really pro player can bhop as a Marine and kite a walking Skulk (has in fact happened to me), but at the same time I learned that nothing beats a good setup and ambush. In fact, the person I learned from would ceiling camp us so much and kill us every time that I started checking everywhere. Didn't help that we had another player who was godly at wall jumping down halls, so if I checked the ceiling too much he came around the corner and bit my face. Fun times.
<!--quoteo(post=1701682:date=Mar 1 2009, 03:06 AM:name=w0dk4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(w0dk4 @ Mar 1 2009, 03:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not against bhoping, I am against the speed-gain glitch!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The 'slow' accelration (compare to usual FPS movement), certain routes at certain speeds, the marine awarness, marine objectives, alien map situation and such all add a huge amount of possibilities to skulk decisions. Those decisions are possible partitially because the movement is free and because there's <b>enough of speed</b> to make it challenging and quick for both the marine and skulk. The speed can be set so high because it's skill based and <b>newbie marines aren't getting overrun by lightning quick newbie skulks</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that at least partitially answers why the speed is a nice thingy. It really adds decisions to skulking as there isn't a free way to accelrate to full speed in 0,5 seconds by pressing 'w'. The speed gaining mehtod could be changed, but I think it might still need some skill involved to keep the marine and skulk learning curves balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1701649:date=Feb 28 2009, 05:04 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 28 2009, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701649"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks who die in the early game do so because they do stupid things - specifically they fail to ambush. Stupid players will lose at any game, do you need more argument to the contrary? Bhop is irrelevant to how often these players are bested in games of skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's not entirely true. Ambushing gives you a massive advantage, but bhop gets you further up into the map to some of those ambush spots. Take the run from Pipe to the corridor outside Topo on Veil. With Bhop you get to the exit from Topo in 15s (little bit faster if you use mousewheel spam or a script which I don't). Here you are meeting the fastest of Marines (jumping the railings and wallstrafing) at the 15 second mark. Without bunnyhop you'll be just rounding the corner from junction at the far end of the corridor where the best you can do is let off a parasite and wait in ambush with maybe 1-2 Marines watching the corridor and 2-1 Marines following up from building the RT at Topo. With bhop you might be able to take a Marine down by surprising him, but without the ball is firmly in the Marines' court because they know they are definitely gonna get jumped at Junction and will be prepared.
Bunnyhopping also allows Skulks to retreat, deny the Marine side their rfk and force them to return to base or (far more likely) use res on Meds. If you can bunnyhop you can get back to the Hive quickly, heal up and move back out without the Marine having gained too much ground or had a lot of time to build structures, etc. (plus he'll be parasited, if you're not a complete newb). The ability to retreat without dying is something that bunnyhop gives only to the players who have learnt to do it. Even if newbs are intelligent enough to know to retreat, it's doubtful they will make it out because they'll be retreating a lot slower. Even intermediate players who know they should retreat will need to learn bhop first to take advantage of this.
Skulks who die do so because they ambush poorly. There are a multiplicity of opportunities to stop marines from getting into Acidic and killing your node - whether you do it in CAT or Acid itself, it still works.
Good bhoppers get the advantage of stopping marines earlier <b>because they are better at the game</b>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bhoppers get the advantage of stopping marines earlier because they know of a glitch in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ^^ fixed for you
PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
edited March 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1701742:date=Mar 2 2009, 12:09 PM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Mar 2 2009, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol. ^^ fixed for you<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're being unbelievably childish.
We know it is a glitch, but the fact that it is a glitch is completely 100% irrelevant - what is relevant is the fact that it adds a lot to Natural Selection 1, and that the developers intentionally kept it in - this is a fact that isn't up for discussion.
What we are trying to discuss is what movement system could replace it, so if you have no input other than childish ######, then seriously, just get the ###### out.
Comments
kids in little league (and really up until their junior/senior years of high school) at told NOT to throw breaking balls (like a curveball) because it puts massive strain on the elbow ligaments, and tends to damage a youth's elbow more so than a developed man's
It was a rather poor analogy though, Radix
your quoted analogy makes more sense though, but seems to argue that Bhop is not necessary for NS(2), when converted to NS terms
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Apart from the pun that made me snicker, this is actually a good question and highly relevant to the subject of bhopping: Why is this different from NS' bhop?
Due to an artifact of the "engine" of reality (someone left the Navier-Stokes' equation in there by accident), the baseball players can use curving to gain an advantage once they master it. So far, it's the real life analogy of bhopping.
The real difference lies in the fact that NS2 will not be a well established game and culture the moment it comes out. The game is required to accomodate for new players to succeed. New players, in general, don't like the notion of training to become good in a game, and bhopping did require quite a bit of time and effort to master. In fact, NS' gameplay eventually evolved so that bhop became close to mandatory for the alien gameplay. How do you justify to a new player that he or she has to train prior to actually playing the game?
This, among many other obstacles, made NS' steep learning curve a bit too unfriendly.
(And that's a shame, because I quite enjoyed bhopping along.)
I originally played a lot of CS back in the day and then when surf first popped up in Aus (oceana) and kz I got right into that. I first started bhoping in NS inside the RR just from seeing other people do it, then learn't that it was a powerful tool as a skulk. I eventually incorporated it into marine to some degree with going up ramps and on railing.
I think that with the new engine NS2 will have skill based movement for the skulk but it wont be as difficult to understand, and of course even though I'm sick of using the word, 'intuitive'.
This, among many other obstacles, made NS' steep learning curve a bit too unfriendly.
(And that's a shame, because I quite enjoyed bhopping along.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1701575:date=Feb 27 2009, 08:45 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(steppin'razor @ Feb 27 2009, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701575"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think for a lot of us, bhop came very naturally. I'm assuming a lot of us had experience in other HL mods that had airspeed control in some degree. How was everyone's experience with learning it? I don't think we have had a general census of this.
I originally played a lot of CS back in the day and then when surf first popped up in Aus (oceana) and kz I got right into that. I first started bhoping in NS inside the RR just from seeing other people do it, then learn't that it was a powerful tool as a skulk. I eventually incorporated it into marine to some degree with going up ramps and on railing.
I think that with the new engine NS2 will have skill based movement for the skulk but it wont be as difficult to understand, and of course even though I'm sick of using the word, 'intuitive'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That time to master you speak of is bunnyhop's charm and why it's such an important part of gameplay. The barrier to using bhop in the first place doesn't come from the airspeed or repeated jumping - no one in quake cares about bhop because the queued jump system allows players to learn it with ease. <b>Bunnyhop fails to be intuitive because of poor implementation in NS, not because the mechanic is flawed.</b>
Let's assume for a minute that you're both right and that bhop is both <b>mandatory</b> and <b>prohibitively unintuitive for marketing purposes</b>. What would you propose to replace it? Certainly not wigglewalk or wallstrafe, side jumping loses all the finesse and replay value that bhop affords. What possible replacement could you give?
<!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Sure, it sounds great to say, "Let's replace bhop with something better." Until of course, you actually sit down and try to find it. There is nothing better - I defy anyone to suggest it.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
---
Of course, the facts are that bhop is neither required to play (which is the purpose of the curveball I threw yesterday that flew over most of your heads) - nor is it prohibitive from a marketing perspective.
<b>Games are designed to be played repeatedly and to be improved upon slightly each time. The only thing bad about a hard game is when it's so hard to start out with that no one gets into it because of the barrier to entry. Bunnyhop does not create that barrier because you don't need it. It's nice to have, but like throwing curveballs, it can be taken or left depending on how much you care about being good.</b>
The only argument at this point is, "Well we don't want to make players work to be good at a game." Which is necessarily equivalent to saying "Well we don't want to let players outplay other players, we want all players to be forced to be exactly as good as one another." And I say bull###### - that's what gaming is about; to compete; to get better; to have fun by learning the best and most interesting facets of a system and exploiting them for your enjoyment and your team's benefit.
Any argument to the contrary must necessarily hinge on a slippery slope centered around the total dwarfing of a game's inter-player experience in favor of a niche objection to a beautifully simple, exceptionally replayable (albiet accidental), and demonstratively fun gameplay element.
Its not.You guys are just used to it and thats it....nothing more.
<!--quoteo(post=1701524:date=Feb 26 2009, 10:05 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 26 2009, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm glad you prioritize realism over fun. You should become a professional game designer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm glad you prioritize fun over atmosphere/immersion..its just retarded and it ruins the atmosphere to me and im sure that it does to many people.YOU should become a professional game designer.
Here are my arguments against bhoping:
-Atmosphere/immersion ,i consider it alot in games....and bhoping just completely breaks <u><b>BOTH</b></u> to me.Or are you gonna say to me that seeing people jumping around non-stop doesnt break the game atmosphere/immersion for you ?
-Its unintuitve,very.
oh,and before anyone says that i dont like it because i dont know how to do it....i do know how to bhop....infact i do it very well.
Deciphered:
<b><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro--><!--coloro:#9932CC--><span style="color:#9932CC"><!--/coloro-->If you don't agree with me, then you want to destroy player relationships with your views which only a few people have. Bunnyhopping is simple, replayable and fun... (but it was a mistake to have it in the first place.)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--></b><ol type='1'><li>... It makes no sense at all</li><li>... Using a bunch of hyperbole adjectives makes you look like a fool, not a clever debater.</li><li>... It's full of crap (inter-player experience<sup>?</sup>.. Beautifully simple<sup>?</sup>.. nice objection<sup>?</sup>)</li><li>... I've said it before... if you remove (read: don't add) bunnyhop, there's no clause to say it needs to be replaced by a better system (which according to you doesn't exist anyway.)</li></ol>
The problem with this line of thinking is that you're already familiar with bhop, you practically grew up with it - anything that's very different but yet serves the same purpose will be instinctively rejected, and you certainly won't give it enough time to get as good with it as you are at bhop.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any argument to the contrary must necessarily hinge on a slippery slope centered around the total dwarfing of a game's inter-player experience in favor of a niche objection to a beautifully simple, exceptionally replayable (albiet accidental), and demonstratively fun gameplay element.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're right, but only because you invented an argument that wasn't being put forward by anyone. I don't really see the point in arguing with yourself.
At the moment, Alien players who can't bunnyhop die more, get places slower and give free resources to the Marine side unless they don't play Skulk at all, but in the first few minutes they will still die a lot until they can go Gorge or Lerk. The only thing they are good for is drawing fire away from more competant players, they cannot do 1v1s. If they stay as Gorge after dropping structures, they are basically removing one offensive unit that should be in play.
The game as it stands has a mechanic that detriments all players when there are newbies on the Alien team. If it is made easier to reach competance at bhop, the entire game and its playerbase benefits. I'd like to see any argument to the contrary.
Aiming is similar, with the massive exception that a genre revolves around aiming (one of the genres NS incorporates) whereas no genre revolves around bunnyhopping. Therefore far more people are already competant at aiming than at bunnyhopping when they enter the playerbase for the first time.
i'm glad you prioritize fun over atmosphere/immersion..its just retarded and it ruins the atmosphere to me and im sure that it does to many people.YOU should become a professional game designer.
Here are my arguments against bhoping:
-Atmosphere/immersion ,i consider it alot in games....and bhoping just completely breaks <u><b>BOTH</b></u> to me.Or are you gonna say to me that seeing people jumping around non-stop doesnt break the game atmosphere/immersion for you ?
-Its unintuitve,very.
oh,and before anyone says that i dont like it because i dont know how to do it....i do know how to bhop....infact i do it very well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets define the word Game.
Game - an activity which is enjoyable and <b>FUN</b> for those playing. So why care so much about immersion, especially if it sacrifices it for FUN.
Yes it is unintuitive, that's the only real issue with it, but to make it to easy would ruin the whole thing anyway. A balance has to be struck.
<!--quoteo(post=1701634:date=Feb 28 2009, 11:43 AM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 28 2009, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701634"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Deciphered:
<b></b><ol type='1'><li>... It makes no sense at all</li><li>... Using a bunch of hyperbole adjectives makes you look like a fool, not a clever debater.</li><li>... It's full of crap (inter-player experience<sup>?</sup>.. Beautifully simple<sup>?</sup>.. nice objection<sup>?</sup>)</li><li>... I've said it before... if you remove (read: don't add) bunnyhop, there's no clause to say it needs to be replaced by a better system (which according to you doesn't exist anyway.)</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being a complete spastic makes you look like a terrible debater.
The challenge to come up with anything that's very different but yet serves the same purpose has still remained completely unanswered.
The game as it stands has a mechanic that detriments all players when there are newbies on the Alien team. If it is made easier to reach competance at bhop, the entire game and its playerbase benefits. I'd like to see any argument to the contrary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks who die in the early game do so because they do stupid things - specifically they fail to ambush. Stupid players will lose at any game, do you need more argument to the contrary? Bhop is irrelevant to how often these players are bested in games of skill.
Also, I agree with making bhop more accessible - you add queued jumping and the interface becomes natural - problem solved.
<!--quoteo(post=1701648:date=Feb 28 2009, 11:23 AM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 28 2009, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why does one have to come up with something to replace something that is a glitch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because its removal negatively impacts the game. If you suggest nothing to replace it you are arguing to create an inferior sequel on purpose.
<!--quoteo(post=1701643:date=Feb 28 2009, 09:32 AM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Feb 28 2009, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The challenge to come up with anything that's very different but yet serves the same purpose has still remained completely unanswered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to say that I've seen a number of suggestions, but in all honesty I can't actually remember any of them, much less give a link. Oh well...
Lets see: Quake style jumping or autojumping AND pressing forward not negatively affecting bhop should make it easy enough for everyone to figure it out on their own.
So as long as there is air control it will be alright.
The real skill is not to bunny hop, but movement skill together with situational awareness.
I consider it completely LOW SKILL to bunny hop attack a marine on an open field.
To jump around a corner in the air and then attack the marine is something different, but then again that doesnt require the glitch of getting faster when bhoping.
So as long as there is air control it will be alright.
The real skill is not to bunny hop, but movement skill together with situational awareness.
I consider it completely LOW SKILL to bunny hop attack a marine on an open field.
To jump around a corner in the air and then attack the marine is something different, but then again that doesnt require the glitch of getting faster when bhoping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a lot more diverse than that. Sometimes you want to dodge, sometimes you just want to roll in at full speed, sometimes you want to slow down and use the burst of speed a little later and most of the time you end up doing a bit of each. That's the beaty of it.
The 'slow' accelration (compare to usual FPS movement), certain routes at certain speeds, the marine awarness, marine objectives, alien map situation and such all add a huge amount of possibilities to skulk decisions. Those decisions are possible partitially because the movement is free and because there's enough of speed to make it challenging and quick for both the marine and skulk. The speed can be set so high because it's skill based and newbie marines aren't getting overrun by lightning quick newbie skulks.
Bhop and it's variations have proven to be absolutely marvellous when it comes to rewarding the decisions and situational awarness. That's why it's so enjoyable, not just because you can gain speed with it. Dodging on the other hand is just one of the options you've got on your disposal and most of the time it's a last resort move. There's no way you're going to dodge a decent aimer in any game for a longer period of time, I think.
Also, I agree with making bhop more accessible - you add queued jumping and the interface becomes natural - problem solved.
<b>Because its removal negatively impacts the game. If you suggest nothing to replace it you are arguing to create an inferior sequel on purpose.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats the point dude.you guys are SO USED to it that cant even imaggine playing it in a diffrent way....repeating: ITS NOT ESSENTIAL TO THE GAMEPLAY....as someone else said,it looks like you guys only play ns to bhop.dude ,reapeting AGAIN:YOU GUYS JUST ARE USED TO IT.NOTHING MORE.There is no need to replace it with anything ,there is no need to "dumb it down".....there is just the need to REMOVE it from the game and i go even further....from the whole ENGINE.
(yes i know ive basicly writen the same thing in the other post ive made but you guys seen to ignore it....so yea ,im repeating it.)
The game as it stands has a mechanic that detriments all players when there are newbies on the Alien team. If it is made easier to reach competance at bhop, the entire game and its playerbase benefits. I'd like to see any argument to the contrary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is only true because the NS community is now very old and developed, there are very few new players and the average skill is actually pretty high. I remember when I started playing ns in Beta 5, most players did not bhop, and plenty of skulks that didn't do it did just fine. I remember having trouble shooting non-bhop skulks, and finding the odd player who actually could bunny hop very difficult to hit. I was playing on a low skill server perhaps, but back then their were low skill servers.
Fast forward 3 or 4 years, and suddenly most of the players can bhop to some degree, and 90% of marines are used to shooting bhop skulks, and suddenly bhop is required. It didn't used to be the case.
Bhop isn't any more essential than aiming.
(yes i know ive basicly writen the same thing in the other post ive made but you guys seen to ignore it....so yea ,im repeating it.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=105649&view=findpost&p=1700005" target="_blank">Old post explaining why you are wrong</a>
While you are right, technically, you could remove bhop and the game would still function, and would probably still be fun, but NS would be much worse off in the eyes of many of its players. There are many features in NS like this, that are suited to one play style over another. I think every one agrees that bhop could be more approachable, we are all for that. But taking it out leaves a big hole in what makes skulking fun and balanced at high levels of play
Long story short: Improve a feature that some people love. Try to make it more accessible, but do not take it out.
PS: your post looks like you typed it with boxing gloves on. Please type more clearly if you want to be listened to
uhh, this is getting old
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's why it's so enjoyable, not just because you can gain speed with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, thats the very point. I think there is a big misunderstanding going on in all the "bhop" discussions.
I am not against bhoping, I am against the speed-gain glitch!
I think there is hardly anybody against air-control which makes bhoping possible in the first place.
Also, there shouldnt be a speed-loss for aliens after a jump, the speed should just stay constant.
But yeah, lets port all HL1 engine glitches, like wall strafing and rapid left-right-strafing and silent jump and whatever to NS2... OMG
(yes i know ive basicly writen the same thing in the other post ive made but you guys seen to ignore it....so yea ,im repeating it.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I entered the FPS genre around.... 4 years ago. i.e. back when NS distributed v3.0. Thus, I didn't "grow up" with Quake or all this nonsense unlike many of my peers.
Yet I find bhop extremely cool and fun. Sure I can't execute it perfectly, but I love the possibilities. I especially came to love it after playing some Warsow. Oh gawds the air control they have in that game.
Sure it's frustrating when a really pro player can bhop as a Marine and kite a walking Skulk (has in fact happened to me), but at the same time I learned that nothing beats a good setup and ambush. In fact, the person I learned from would ceiling camp us so much and kill us every time that I started checking everywhere. Didn't help that we had another player who was godly at wall jumping down halls, so if I checked the ceiling too much he came around the corner and bit my face. Fun times.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The 'slow' accelration (compare to usual FPS movement), certain routes at certain speeds, the marine awarness, marine objectives, alien map situation and such all add a huge amount of possibilities to skulk decisions. Those decisions are possible partitially because the movement is free and because there's <b>enough of speed</b> to make it challenging and quick for both the marine and skulk. The speed can be set so high because it's skill based and <b>newbie marines aren't getting overrun by lightning quick newbie skulks</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that at least partitially answers why the speed is a nice thingy. It really adds decisions to skulking as there isn't a free way to accelrate to full speed in 0,5 seconds by pressing 'w'. The speed gaining mehtod could be changed, but I think it might still need some skill involved to keep the marine and skulk learning curves balanced.
Bunnyhopping also allows Skulks to retreat, deny the Marine side their rfk and force them to return to base or (far more likely) use res on Meds. If you can bunnyhop you can get back to the Hive quickly, heal up and move back out without the Marine having gained too much ground or had a lot of time to build structures, etc. (plus he'll be parasited, if you're not a complete newb). The ability to retreat without dying is something that bunnyhop gives only to the players who have learnt to do it. Even if newbs are intelligent enough to know to retreat, it's doubtful they will make it out because they'll be retreating a lot slower. Even intermediate players who know they should retreat will need to learn bhop first to take advantage of this.
Good bhoppers get the advantage of stopping marines earlier <b>because they are better at the game</b>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bhoppers get the advantage of stopping marines earlier because they know of a glitch in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^ fixed for you
^^ fixed for you<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're being unbelievably childish.
We know it is a glitch, but the fact that it is a glitch is completely 100% irrelevant - what is relevant is the fact that it adds a lot to Natural Selection 1, and that the developers intentionally kept it in - this is a fact that isn't up for discussion.
What we are trying to discuss is what movement system could replace it, so if you have no input other than childish ######, then seriously, just get the ###### out.