I can understand why the dev team is not making co for NS2, better to focus on the core game. But I don’t understand all the hate towards combat, playing vanilla combat was (as there hasn’t been a vanilla co-server in years) a great way to improve your skills (mostly aiming) and it was pretty fun if you just sought some quick action. Xmenu combat on the other hand have nothing to do with ns, but for some reason a lot of people likes it and you have to acknowledge that.
If you plan on making a co-mod, balance is the key. Upgrades like 3rd hive abilities (xeno and web in particular), redemp, gl and focus don’t belong in combat.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want to know what you liked and disliked about combat, so that we can make this an improvement, rather then a clone. I don't want to hear "I don't like xmenu" I want to know WHY you don't want like xmenu, WHY you dislike combat, What you think would make combat better, and in general what would make combat more enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion combat had a number of serious problems. I'll attempt to restrict myself to vanilla combat, as I consider it (by far) the best flavour.
Let me first outline what I though combat should be. Combat should be a 'light' game mode. Combat should be a playground, somewhere you can go and muck about with something you would normally not touch. Somewhere to practice that fade, or try something odd with a grenade launcher.
<b>Teamwork</b> Teamwork is such a massive part of the natural selection universe, yet combat failed to emphasize teamwork quite catastrophically. Playing combat, you get the the distinct impression that you buy <u>YOUR</u> equipment for <u>YOUR</u> levels, when this is actually not the case. The levels in combat is a lot like the alien resources. Team resources entrusted to you, making it your responsibility to spend them <u>with</u> your team to make the most of them for <u>everyone</u>. The fact that spending level advances in combat often involves permanent choices just makes it even more important to involve the rest of the team. With the lack of emphasis, and the established 'your levels are your own' attitude, I find that the only teamwork I see on combat servers are that which I bring myself. It is all too common to see half a team of individualists taking on groups of enemies by their own, effectively giving away free levels. I hate being the only one with a welder, it makes me so depressed.
<b>Abilities</b> While combat is potentially a good place to practice stuff, the ability system borks this up quite a bit. Both for aliens and for marines I should add. The no-penalty respawning system adds a bit of trouble as well, albeit of a more subtle kind. There is world of difference between the careful celerity-fades you come across in your average ns-game compared to the gung-ho-5-ability-suicide-fades combat is packed full of. Both to those who play the fades and those holding shotguns. The net result is that playing marine in combat will perhaps help your aim, but it will not help you much when it comes to predicting fade behaviour in real ns. It is possible to practice alien though, if you have the discipline to stick to classic abilities. And as combat is not balanced around this, you are looking at an uphill struggle. Playing a classic 1½ hive fade while being used to carapace usually gets you dead quite fast, and is of little use.
Needless to say, xmenu completely abolishes any remaining benefits in this area.
<b>Map Design</b> The combat maps are usually very small. I expect this is done to up the pace, and provide the action packed game-play that is combat. However, having marines and aliens packed to tightly together creates an environment that is quite different from the one found in classic natural selection. While it is action packed, it is very far from the fairly roomy classic maps. Some lifeforms handle this better than others. Skulks are usually in a lot of trouble, and it is my experience that you have to play very differently to make it on a combat server. You can't really scout or ambush as a skulk, there's nowhere to run as an onos, who ever went gorge in co? In the end, the only thing you might possibly learn is how to deal with a wall of shotguns (or teeth) coming your way. A lesson that hardly requires it's own game mode.
To sum it up: When it comes to combat, I don't like the Game-play, the People, the Equipment or the Maps.
I think there is a place for combat, in it's original form. As a playground, as an introduction. The world of NS, but simplified (primarily by removing the RTS elements) to make it easier to deal with for newcomers and easier to get your hands on some expensive toys. However, it is paramount that core values such as team-play (and to some extend core game-play) are not compromised.
If you intend to remake combat in all it's xmenu glory I hope your fingers fall off so you won't be able to type.
<!--quoteo(post=1711038:date=Jun 8 2009, 02:56 AM:name=flying_moose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (flying_moose @ Jun 8 2009, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want to know what you liked and disliked about combat, so that we can make this an improvement, rather then a clone. I don't want to hear "I don't like xmenu" I want to know WHY you don't want like xmenu, WHY you dislike combat, What you think would make combat better, and in general what would make combat more enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. There's nothing to drive the game forward. Everything revolves around kills. This means that both teams are comfortable to sit behind their defence lines to deny any experience from the other team. In other words, camping is a good way to win as long as someone from the other team isn't playing total defence.
Later on people added spawn prot, so that you're basically forced to sit back and play passive even if you could beat their defensive line in a fight.
2. Alien play misses nearly all the awesome features it has.
Skulks don't have that much to do as the marines haven't got any distraction or hurry. This leads to the situations where you're either forced to sit back for long periods of time or just launch yourself at the marines and hope their aim isn't good or your hitbox has got a good hole in it. Parasiting is practically useless, since marines die in waves, it doesn't matter if your lifeforms die and everyone can pick SoF anyway.
Lifeforms are free. In NS your lifeform play is all about maximizing the damage to the oppositing and still staying alive. Co removes the point of that by removing the cost of dying. The big amounts of marines in a small map also means that you're forced to do a lot of crazy blinks into groups of marines, hoping that they miss due to bad aim or hitreg. Since there is no co-operation, metagame or responsibility in lifeform play, all that is left is perfecting the mechanical side of the moves you've got.
Resupply is completetly free. Lerk can't do that much else than spore or to go for the doom dives that once again have no risk to free lifeforms. Sporing armor away is purposeful I guess, but it rarely has got that much excitement in co, since everything on the field is one big irrelevant flow of gameplay.
3. The balance is horrible and there's no metagame or whatsoever.
The lack of strategies is fine I guess, Co is supposed to be light and easy to play, but some balance would still be nice.
Generally speaking there is no point in staying lower lifeforms/guns. Just rush up to fades and SGs/HMGs, then get every upgrade for them. So basically there's one big phase on the game and it keeps going until one team wins or the time runs out.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just don't want it to suck all the new players to NS2 and keep them away from classic<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There'd be nothing worse if combat came out not long after NS2 release and took a lot of the game population...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think players should have the choice, if there is so much players that joined the co maps, there is surely a reason.
I had as much fun on ns maps than on co maps and i hardly see NS2 without them.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=blackpiranha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blackpiranha)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No - just no. CO was the worst thing in NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you for contributing nothing usefull. CO will be made. The aim is to make it better so that it can stand on its own. <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Space_Cowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Space_Cowboy)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you plan on making a co-mod, balance is the key. Upgrades like 3rd hive abilities (xeno and web in particular), redemp, gl and focus don’t belong in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The primary plan would be to balance the mentioned abilities so that they fit fairly into CO. This is assuming the abilities are even in NS2 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Private)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Private)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you intend to remake combat in all it's xmenu glory I hope your fingers fall off so you won't be able to type.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL Once again, I think the problem lies in balence, but we'll see. I dont intend to remake NS1 CO, I intend to make an NS2 CO.
And then on to other matters. <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=BadMouth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BadMouth)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And of course, CO games that drag on past 15 minutes and has everyone at max level<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You constantly have your upgrades and you can get way more than you would ever in regular NS...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->A disclaimer: Throughout planning/development I'll be tossing ideas out into the open in order to gage community reaction/oppinion and to better understand what people want out of combat. Some of these ideas may suck, but thats partially why I'm tossing them out in the open: To clairify, in order to make it a better game.<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--> From what I'm understanding, people seem to want CO to be more representitive of the actual COMBAT that takes place in NS2. They want it to be more limiting, in-order to closer simulate the normal combat portion of the game. (plz correct if I'm wrong.)
Uh.. Combat is not how NS meant to be played! and honestly it attracts the wrong playerbase... which eventually will divide the community once again. I think NS players got tired of combat players.... leaving NS with just combat.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1711038:date=Jun 7 2009, 10:56 PM:name=flying_moose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (flying_moose @ Jun 7 2009, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As the above rantings about why combat is good/sucks is all this thread has turned into, and I haven't gotten an answer to my initial question: I will go ahead on the assumption that there is no existing team working on NS2 Combat. That being the case, I will be putting a team together. I created "NS2Combat AT gmail DOT com" if your interested in contributing to the creation of combat with either code or ideas, please send me an email there. In the coming month or so I will try to piece a separate site together for more organized development. I will of course also be watching these forums and my pm box, but email is the best way to reach me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would say you're correct about no current organised team. I'm interested in doing some LUA programming, but I don't know if free time will permit. I wish you luck regardless. <!--quoteo(post=1711038:date=Jun 7 2009, 10:56 PM:name=flying_moose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (flying_moose @ Jun 7 2009, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To all the people who liked combat and are looking forward to seeing it in NS2 great! I look forward to hearing ideas from you on how to improve it! To all the people who turned this into a discussion of why combat sucks, I want to hear from you most of all!
~Flying_Moose<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think <b>Private</b> and <b>Bacillus</b> highlighted the differences between combat and classic, it's problems, and it's perceived problems, rather well.
Here's my approach to "fixing combat". [h3]Goals:[/h3] <ul><li> 1.) Provide a quick paced(short round duration and good action spacing) game mode</li><li> 2.) Provide a low risk environment for players to learn higher lifeforms/abilities/weapons</li><li> 3.) Provide a low risk environment for players to learn tactics(not strategy!)</li></ul> IMO, orig combat was good at 1, mediocre at 2, and didn't address 3 at all. The quick round duration and low risk environment are necessary evils if we're going to give players a "playground" for learning.
2.) could be improved by limiting what abilities you can get and how teh work slightly. This will actually be much easier with LUA as the gamecode. For example: you should not be able to get celerity and silence at the same time. And if you get adren while holding another mvt upgrade it should function like you're near a mvt chamber instead of being the adren upgrade. Maybe even by choosing an area to place a "fake" mvt chamber. This way you're limiting players to actual scenarios they would encounter in classic at least.
For 3.), the maps need to be changed to have more vents and opportunities for skulks to sneak up, flank, and ambush. Assists need to be given so players see the benefits of teamwork immediately.
Finally, to address <b>Private</b> and <b>Bacillus</b> concerns, there needs to be a radical change of combat's in game goal(as opposed to it's Overall goals). Camping base should not be the name of the game. I saw this idea proposed elsewhere for NS2(maybe the author will notice and say hi), but there could be neutral "shop" points, with the higher level abilities/lifeforms/weapons only available from the "shop or tech point" closest to the enemy base. It would be a simple "capture point" system like a million other games out there. There would only be 3 total and it would encourage marines and kharaa to press out. Maybe these points could provide a small amount of xp/res over time to make them important early on as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1710865:date=Jun 7 2009, 10:48 AM:name=devicenull)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (devicenull @ Jun 7 2009, 10:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1710865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT. What else really needs to be said about CO? I mean yeah, it "widened" the player base, but also <b>ruined</b> the player base because of bringing in the kind of people who are not interested in / incapable of playing normal NS.
If there was CO, it should only be used for what is meant for, TRAINING! You know, a lot like the "Boot Camp" mode in Call of Duty:World at War for the Wii. You play in boot camp mode for the first couple hours of the game with all of the rest of the people who have only been playing for a couple hours, and after that you are moved to the real game with the inability to go back to boot camp mode.
If you justify combat mode for training, then give natural selection mode and training. If you use combat mode, you never training teamplay and contributes to divide ns comunity
I remember, the combat mode is displayed in 3 years away from 1.0, please, this time to develop it 10 years later.....
<!--quoteo(post=1711151:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:32 AM:name=MaS4Cr3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaS4Cr3 @ Jun 8 2009, 10:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you justify combat mode for training, then give natural selection mode and training. If you use combat mode, you never training teamplay and contributes to divide ns comunity
I remember, the combat mode is displayed in 3 years away from 1.0, please, this time to develop it 10 years later.....
I say.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have no idea what you're attempting to say, but by training I meant you use combat mode to learn how to control a fade/onos/lerk/grenade launcher/jetpack without wasting the teams resources in the "real" game, not that you are training how to play combat mode. :-)
You know, combat mode being like the Half-Life hazard course. Teaching you the controls and how different weapons/objects work, that's it.
I like (solcott)'s Idea actually, make it where you play for a few hours with other new players and learn, then after they have had their fill of training, block them from returning. The only problem I can think of is making it too drastic a step from training to how NS is played. I remember my first time playing NS and how hard it was for me to play at a reasonable level(the fact that every player tried to tell me F10 was a guide on how to play didn't help either). I even tried combat later and found I was hopeless on the Kharaa.
<!--quoteo(post=1711197:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:06 PM:name=BlackHawk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BlackHawk @ Jun 8 2009, 01:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711197"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like (solcott)'s Idea actually, make it where you play for a few hours with other new players and learn, then after they have had their fill of training, block them from returning. The only problem I can think of is making it too drastic a step from training to how NS is played. I remember my first time playing NS and how hard it was for me to play at a reasonable level(the fact that every player tried to tell me F10 was a guide on how to play didn't help either). I even tried combat later and found I was hopeless on the Kharaa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sadly I cant see solcott's idea of CO being a realistic option. NS2 will more then likely be mostly player-hosted servers. Who's going to want to pay to host a server they wont be able to join or modders to make a mod they wont be able to play for that matter? Furthermore theres plenty of people who LIKE CO. While I agree a training portion to NS2 would be nice, I can't see CO being that portion/mod.
I have no problem with anyone making a Combat Mod. I enjoyed the Combat maps. I am looking forward to playing classic mode on NS2 more though, been to long since i have actually played classic.
<!--quoteo(post=1711132:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:00 AM:name=flying_moose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (flying_moose @ Jun 8 2009, 10:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...The aim is to make it better so that it can stand on its own<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're asking the wrong audience. Combat is a simplistic deathmatch game. Most of the people on the forums like NS Classic better and most NS Classic players hate combat for what it is. Combat players enjoy Combat for what it is. I mean, the proof is in the replies... look at what Private said:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yet combat failed to emphasize teamwork<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I won't get into how NS as a whole failed to promote teamwork, and while teamwork obviously plays a very large role in Combat, it is not the most important thing and should not be made the most important thing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->having marines and aliens packed to tightly together creates an environment that is quite different from the one found in classic natural selection<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's because Combat and Classic are different games.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think there is a place for combat, in it's original form. As a playground, as an introduction<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are not the people you want to listen to if you're looking to improve upon Combat.
If you are serious about trying to improve upon Combat I would suggest you make a Combat clone, try playtesting, and go from there. NS2 does not equal NS1. There will be differences and we can theorycraft all we want, but it would be a useless way to spend time until the actual game is out. If you want my suggestions for improvement, I'd say none of those extra plugin's should be included, except for a few extra levels.
<!--quoteo(post=1711134:date=Jun 8 2009, 09:07 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Jun 8 2009, 09:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I saw this idea proposed elsewhere for NS2(maybe the author will notice and say hi), but there could be neutral "shop" points, with the higher level abilities/lifeforms/weapons only available from the "shop or tech point" closest to the enemy base. It would be a simple "capture point" system like a million other games out there. There would only be 3 total and it would encourage marines and kharaa to press out. Maybe these points could provide a small amount of xp/res over time to make them important early on as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking the new CO would be along these lines. Mainly because of the way the marines have to push in the new classic game. If you made it more like 5 capture points you could even keep the chain effect that classic is implementing. Only capture points connected would supply the exp/res for the team that has them. It would provide for a good reason for a larger map and like you said pushing out of base.
All I know is this, I really like both aspects of NS: Co and NS. The standard NS maps are draining and after a long hour match I don't want to play another one right away!! But I still want to play the game. Thats why I love CO, it's the alternitive I want!! It gives me a break so I don't get burnt out on the game. To be honest If someone wasn't gonna make a CO version I might not even buy the game because I would just get burnt out on it too quickly. This game NEEDS that flexability in it to help maintain the player base. If you don't like it thats your problem, don't play it. But stop trying to make the game elitest and exclusive to people who are only hardcore classic fans. The kind of flexability that CO brings is a breath of fresh air that keeps me comming back to play NS style maps.
And if a large enough majority of players want it then who are you to deny it?
You know, I always see a ton of complaining about co_ and xmenu, but for the short time I ran a vanilla server (anyone remember nf.crew vanilla wednesday?), the server which normally would be full, would be empty. On those days, it would be myself and just 3 other admins who wanted and enjoyed a vanilla server every once in a while.
devicenullJoin Date: 2003-04-30Member: 15967Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
As much as I dislike combat, I feel it could have a purpose. NS has always had an issue of getting that "critical mass" of players. For example, games under say.. 4v4 are horribly unbalanced and would normally result in the aliens winning, if my memory serves me correctly. Combat could offer a solution to that, allowing you to play a relatively faster paced and more balanced game while you wait for people to join.
Of course, it's not a perfect solution for a number of reasons, but I feel it could be with a little work.
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
to the people making combat, because surely somebody will and even though i cant stop it, I might as well try and take out all the parts i didn't like.
So whoever wants to make it, please make the timelimit non adjustable. that would remove 45 minute CO games.
The reason why this game was as good and as popular as it is, relies solely on the rts/fps aspect of the game. NS Combat is okay at best. The best fun was always had in the REAL mode aka NS_Map. No ifs ands or buts about it.
NS_Map 4 lyfe. Make that my own group or something.
<!--QuoteBegin-devicenull+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (devicenull)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As much as I dislike combat, I feel it could have a purpose. NS has always had an issue of getting that "critical mass" of players. For example, games under say.. 4v4 are horribly unbalanced and would normally result in the aliens winning, if my memory serves me correctly. Combat could offer a solution to that, allowing you to play a relatively faster paced and more balanced game while you wait for people to join.
Of course, it's not a perfect solution for a number of reasons, but I feel it could be with a little work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's kind of a funny thing to say because that's exactly what Combat was designed for.
One thing I would recommend is a bigger focus on player versus player combat (rather than attacking the CC/hive). A linear level with capture points and multiple spawn positions like in Insurgency/Day of Defeat/Team Fortress 2 would be much better because it means no one will have to play the boring heal spray spamming gorge or CC welding marine. It also gives you a much better understanding of who is winning, and whether you should attack now with your teammates or backtrack a bit to recap that point you just lost. And it should go without saying: get rid of spawn camping!
A tangential idea is to get rid of the score based leveling and change it to a flat, time-based leveling. This way you could experience a skill-match between you and your enemy more often, you would experience the whole tech tree more often (especially if you were a newbie), and you would be encouraged to attack constantly.
Another tangential idea is to give an advantage to the team that is losing, for example the more capture points you hold the lower level you are. This variation would create games without time limits where you would really need a considerable skill advantage or great teamwork to win, but at the same time the losing team would be more fun to play for the player that likes to dominate and likes a high kills:deaths ratio, which would keep the teams balanced.
Speaking as a giant hypocrite, before the constructive criticism of combat begins, what this group really needs is a clear and specific goal to work towards and that goal should be the answer to the question "why combat?" Everyone pitching criticism and ideas needs to be on the same page as to what the group is working towards.
<!--quoteo(post=1711452:date=Jun 9 2009, 02:52 PM:name=Ruthlessfish)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ruthlessfish @ Jun 9 2009, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711452"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->co_maps destroyed the french community and brought noobs who just want fast pew pew and big aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ChocolateThe Team MascotJoin Date: 2006-10-31Member: 58123Members
<!--quoteo(post=1711100:date=Jun 8 2009, 05:59 AM:name=Space_Cowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Space_Cowboy @ Jun 8 2009, 05:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I don’t understand all the hate towards combat, playing vanilla combat was (as there hasn’t been a vanilla co-server in years) a great way to improve your skills (mostly aiming) and it was pretty fun if you just sought some quick action.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed.
CO was designed as a quick 15 minute game solely to FILL UP SERVERS for NS. But because of Xmenu, it turned into a never ending deathmatch of its own.
To illustrate my point, imagine NS where both teams had exactly 5 RTs the entire game and upgrades were infinite. Do you honestly think the game would ever end? The marine commander could always dish out better guns and more upgrades. The aliens could always evolve into new lifeforms and get better upgrades. Perhaps the winning team would have more RFK, but this benefit is negligible until later in the game when it piles up. No team could lose in any reasonable time because there would be only a small limiting factor (RFK). There is nothing considerable and quick which benefits the winning team/detriments the losing team.
CO is the same as the above. Both teams kill, both teams get points to spend One team might have slightly more kills than the other team, but this is neglibile until later in the game There is no considerable advantage to the winning team/detriment to the losing team besides a few extra points.
Here is another form to explain my point:
Almost every game I know in the same genre as CO has a large limiting factor: Halo has gun distribution (winning team has more guns) CS has purchasing power (similar to halo) Both games have a kill limit goal. CO has extra points but does not have a limit.
My point is, for COv2, please have some cap on the levels or experience one can get. It will provide that a limiting factor of some sorts. At very least, it will put everyone in a situation where there is no alternative to pure skill CO doesn't have that right now.
Comments
But I don’t understand all the hate towards combat, playing vanilla combat was (as there hasn’t been a vanilla co-server in years) a great way to improve your skills (mostly aiming) and it was pretty fun if you just sought some quick action.
Xmenu combat on the other hand have nothing to do with ns, but for some reason a lot of people likes it and you have to acknowledge that.
If you plan on making a co-mod, balance is the key. Upgrades like 3rd hive abilities (xeno and web in particular), redemp, gl and focus don’t belong in combat.
In my opinion combat had a number of serious problems. I'll attempt to restrict myself to vanilla combat, as I consider it (by far) the best flavour.
Let me first outline what I though combat should be. Combat should be a 'light' game mode. Combat should be a playground, somewhere you can go and muck about with something you would normally not touch. Somewhere to practice that fade, or try something odd with a grenade launcher.
<b>Teamwork</b>
Teamwork is such a massive part of the natural selection universe, yet combat failed to emphasize teamwork quite catastrophically. Playing combat, you get the the distinct impression that you buy <u>YOUR</u> equipment for <u>YOUR</u> levels, when this is actually not the case. The levels in combat is a lot like the alien resources. Team resources entrusted to you, making it your responsibility to spend them <u>with</u> your team to make the most of them for <u>everyone</u>. The fact that spending level advances in combat often involves permanent choices just makes it even more important to involve the rest of the team. With the lack of emphasis, and the established 'your levels are your own' attitude, I find that the only teamwork I see on combat servers are that which I bring myself. It is all too common to see half a team of individualists taking on groups of enemies by their own, effectively giving away free levels. I hate being the only one with a welder, it makes me so depressed.
<b>Abilities</b>
While combat is potentially a good place to practice stuff, the ability system borks this up quite a bit. Both for aliens and for marines I should add. The no-penalty respawning system adds a bit of trouble as well, albeit of a more subtle kind. There is world of difference between the careful celerity-fades you come across in your average ns-game compared to the gung-ho-5-ability-suicide-fades combat is packed full of. Both to those who play the fades and those holding shotguns. The net result is that playing marine in combat will perhaps help your aim, but it will not help you much when it comes to predicting fade behaviour in real ns. It is possible to practice alien though, if you have the discipline to stick to classic abilities. And as combat is not balanced around this, you are looking at an uphill struggle. Playing a classic 1½ hive fade while being used to carapace usually gets you dead quite fast, and is of little use.
Needless to say, xmenu completely abolishes any remaining benefits in this area.
<b>Map Design</b>
The combat maps are usually very small. I expect this is done to up the pace, and provide the action packed game-play that is combat. However, having marines and aliens packed to tightly together creates an environment that is quite different from the one found in classic natural selection. While it is action packed, it is very far from the fairly roomy classic maps. Some lifeforms handle this better than others. Skulks are usually in a lot of trouble, and it is my experience that you have to play very differently to make it on a combat server. You can't really scout or ambush as a skulk, there's nowhere to run as an onos, who ever went gorge in co? In the end, the only thing you might possibly learn is how to deal with a wall of shotguns (or teeth) coming your way. A lesson that hardly requires it's own game mode.
To sum it up: When it comes to combat, I don't like the Game-play, the People, the Equipment or the Maps.
I think there is a place for combat, in it's original form. As a playground, as an introduction. The world of NS, but simplified (primarily by removing the RTS elements) to make it easier to deal with for newcomers and easier to get your hands on some expensive toys. However, it is paramount that core values such as team-play (and to some extend core game-play) are not compromised.
If you intend to remake combat in all it's xmenu glory I hope your fingers fall off so you won't be able to type.
1. There's nothing to drive the game forward. Everything revolves around kills. This means that both teams are comfortable to sit behind their defence lines to deny any experience from the other team. In other words, camping is a good way to win as long as someone from the other team isn't playing total defence.
Later on people added spawn prot, so that you're basically forced to sit back and play passive even if you could beat their defensive line in a fight.
2. Alien play misses nearly all the awesome features it has.
Skulks don't have that much to do as the marines haven't got any distraction or hurry. This leads to the situations where you're either forced to sit back for long periods of time or just launch yourself at the marines and hope their aim isn't good or your hitbox has got a good hole in it. Parasiting is practically useless, since marines die in waves, it doesn't matter if your lifeforms die and everyone can pick SoF anyway.
Lifeforms are free. In NS your lifeform play is all about maximizing the damage to the oppositing and still staying alive. Co removes the point of that by removing the cost of dying. The big amounts of marines in a small map also means that you're forced to do a lot of crazy blinks into groups of marines, hoping that they miss due to bad aim or hitreg. Since there is no co-operation, metagame or responsibility in lifeform play, all that is left is perfecting the mechanical side of the moves you've got.
Resupply is completetly free. Lerk can't do that much else than spore or to go for the doom dives that once again have no risk to free lifeforms. Sporing armor away is purposeful I guess, but it rarely has got that much excitement in co, since everything on the field is one big irrelevant flow of gameplay.
3. The balance is horrible and there's no metagame or whatsoever.
The lack of strategies is fine I guess, Co is supposed to be light and easy to play, but some balance would still be nice.
Generally speaking there is no point in staying lower lifeforms/guns. Just rush up to fades and SGs/HMGs, then get every upgrade for them. So basically there's one big phase on the game and it keeps going until one team wins or the time runs out.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There'd be nothing worse if combat came out not long after NS2 release and took a lot of the game population...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think players should have the choice, if there is so much players that joined the co maps, there is surely a reason.
I had as much fun on ns maps than on co maps and i hardly see NS2 without them.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=blackpiranha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blackpiranha)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No - just no. CO was the worst thing in NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for contributing nothing usefull. CO will be made. The aim is to make it better so that it can stand on its own.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Space_Cowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Space_Cowboy)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you plan on making a co-mod, balance is the key. Upgrades like 3rd hive abilities (xeno and web in particular), redemp, gl and focus don’t belong in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The primary plan would be to balance the mentioned abilities so that they fit fairly into CO. This is assuming the abilities are even in NS2 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Private)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Private)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you intend to remake combat in all it's xmenu glory I hope your fingers fall off so you won't be able to type.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL Once again, I think the problem lies in balence, but we'll see. I dont intend to remake NS1 CO, I intend to make an NS2 CO.
And then on to other matters.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=BadMouth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BadMouth)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And of course, CO games that drag on past 15 minutes and has everyone at max level<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You constantly have your upgrades and you can get way more than you would ever in regular NS...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->A disclaimer: Throughout planning/development I'll be tossing ideas out into the open in order to gage community reaction/oppinion and to better understand what people want out of combat. Some of these ideas may suck, but thats partially why I'm tossing them out in the open: To clairify, in order to make it a better game.<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
From what I'm understanding, people seem to want CO to be more representitive of the actual COMBAT that takes place in NS2. They want it to be more limiting, in-order to closer simulate the normal combat portion of the game. (plz correct if I'm wrong.)
I think NS players got tired of combat players.... leaving NS with just combat.
I would say you're correct about no current organised team. I'm interested in doing some LUA programming, but I don't know if free time will permit. I wish you luck regardless.
<!--quoteo(post=1711038:date=Jun 7 2009, 10:56 PM:name=flying_moose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (flying_moose @ Jun 7 2009, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To all the people who liked combat and are looking forward to seeing it in NS2 great! I look forward to hearing ideas from you on how to improve it!
To all the people who turned this into a discussion of why combat sucks, I want to hear from you most of all!
~Flying_Moose<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think <b>Private</b> and <b>Bacillus</b> highlighted the differences between combat and classic, it's problems, and it's perceived problems, rather well.
Here's my approach to "fixing combat".
[h3]Goals:[/h3]
<ul><li> 1.) Provide a quick paced(short round duration and good action spacing) game mode</li><li> 2.) Provide a low risk environment for players to learn higher lifeforms/abilities/weapons</li><li> 3.) Provide a low risk environment for players to learn tactics(not strategy!)</li></ul>
IMO, orig combat was good at 1, mediocre at 2, and didn't address 3 at all. The quick round duration and low risk environment are necessary evils if we're going to give players a "playground" for learning.
2.) could be improved by limiting what abilities you can get and how teh work slightly. This will actually be much easier with LUA as the gamecode. For example: you should not be able to get celerity and silence at the same time. And if you get adren while holding another mvt upgrade it should function like you're near a mvt chamber instead of being the adren upgrade. Maybe even by choosing an area to place a "fake" mvt chamber. This way you're limiting players to actual scenarios they would encounter in classic at least.
For 3.), the maps need to be changed to have more vents and opportunities for skulks to sneak up, flank, and ambush. Assists need to be given so players see the benefits of teamwork immediately.
Finally, to address <b>Private</b> and <b>Bacillus</b> concerns, there needs to be a radical change of combat's in game goal(as opposed to it's Overall goals). Camping base should not be the name of the game. I saw this idea proposed elsewhere for NS2(maybe the author will notice and say hi), but there could be neutral "shop" points, with the higher level abilities/lifeforms/weapons only available from the "shop or tech point" closest to the enemy base. It would be a simple "capture point" system like a million other games out there. There would only be 3 total and it would encourage marines and kharaa to press out. Maybe these points could provide a small amount of xp/res over time to make them important early on as well.
QFT. What else really needs to be said about CO? I mean yeah, it "widened" the player base, but also <b>ruined</b> the player base because of bringing in the kind of people who are not interested in / incapable of playing normal NS.
If there was CO, it should only be used for what is meant for, TRAINING! You know, a lot like the "Boot Camp" mode in Call of Duty:World at War for the Wii. You play in boot camp mode for the first couple hours of the game with all of the rest of the people who have only been playing for a couple hours, and after that you are moved to the real game with the inability to go back to boot camp mode.
I remember, the combat mode is displayed in 3 years away from 1.0, please, this time to develop it 10 years later.....
I say.
I remember, the combat mode is displayed in 3 years away from 1.0, please, this time to develop it 10 years later.....
I say.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no idea what you're attempting to say, but by training I meant you use combat mode to learn how to control a fade/onos/lerk/grenade launcher/jetpack without wasting the teams resources in the "real" game, not that you are training how to play combat mode. :-)
You know, combat mode being like the Half-Life hazard course. Teaching you the controls and how different weapons/objects work, that's it.
Sadly I cant see solcott's idea of CO being a realistic option. NS2 will more then likely be mostly player-hosted servers. Who's going to want to pay to host a server they wont be able to join or modders to make a mod they wont be able to play for that matter? Furthermore theres plenty of people who LIKE CO. While I agree a training portion to NS2 would be nice, I can't see CO being that portion/mod.
You're asking the wrong audience. Combat is a simplistic deathmatch game. Most of the people on the forums like NS Classic better and most NS Classic players hate combat for what it is. Combat players enjoy Combat for what it is. I mean, the proof is in the replies... look at what Private said:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yet combat failed to emphasize teamwork<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I won't get into how NS as a whole failed to promote teamwork, and while teamwork obviously plays a very large role in Combat, it is not the most important thing and should not be made the most important thing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->having marines and aliens packed to tightly together creates an environment that is quite different from the one found in classic natural selection<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's because Combat and Classic are different games.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think there is a place for combat, in it's original form. As a playground, as an introduction<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are not the people you want to listen to if you're looking to improve upon Combat.
If you are serious about trying to improve upon Combat I would suggest you make a Combat clone, try playtesting, and go from there. NS2 does not equal NS1. There will be differences and we can theorycraft all we want, but it would be a useless way to spend time until the actual game is out. If you want my suggestions for improvement, I'd say none of those extra plugin's should be included, except for a few extra levels.
I was thinking the new CO would be along these lines. Mainly because of the way the marines have to push in the new classic game. If you made it more like 5 capture points you could even keep the chain effect that classic is implementing. Only capture points connected would supply the exp/res for the team that has them. It would provide for a good reason for a larger map and like you said pushing out of base.
And if a large enough majority of players want it then who are you to deny it?
Of course, it's not a perfect solution for a number of reasons, but I feel it could be with a little work.
So whoever wants to make it, please make the timelimit non adjustable. that would remove 45 minute CO games.
NS_Map 4 lyfe. Make that my own group or something.
Of course, it's not a perfect solution for a number of reasons, but I feel it could be with a little work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's kind of a funny thing to say because that's exactly what Combat was designed for.
We see how well that turned out, eh?
A tangential idea is to get rid of the score based leveling and change it to a flat, time-based leveling. This way you could experience a skill-match between you and your enemy more often, you would experience the whole tech tree more often (especially if you were a newbie), and you would be encouraged to attack constantly.
Another tangential idea is to give an advantage to the team that is losing, for example the more capture points you hold the lower level you are. This variation would create games without time limits where you would really need a considerable skill advantage or great teamwork to win, but at the same time the losing team would be more fun to play for the player that likes to dominate and likes a high kills:deaths ratio, which would keep the teams balanced.
Speaking as a giant hypocrite, before the constructive criticism of combat begins, what this group really needs is a clear and specific goal to work towards and that goal should be the answer to the question "why combat?" Everyone pitching criticism and ideas needs to be on the same page as to what the group is working towards.
Exactly.
Agreed.
CO was designed as a quick 15 minute game solely to FILL UP SERVERS for NS.
But because of Xmenu, it turned into a never ending deathmatch of its own.
To illustrate my point, imagine NS where both teams had exactly 5 RTs the entire game and upgrades were infinite.
Do you honestly think the game would ever end?
The marine commander could always dish out better guns and more upgrades. The aliens could always evolve into new lifeforms and get better upgrades.
Perhaps the winning team would have more RFK, but this benefit is negligible until later in the game when it piles up.
No team could lose in any reasonable time because there would be only a small limiting factor (RFK). There is nothing considerable and quick which benefits the winning team/detriments the losing team.
CO is the same as the above.
Both teams kill, both teams get points to spend
One team might have slightly more kills than the other team, but this is neglibile until later in the game
There is no considerable advantage to the winning team/detriment to the losing team besides a few extra points.
Here is another form to explain my point:
Almost every game I know in the same genre as CO has a large limiting factor:
Halo has gun distribution (winning team has more guns)
CS has purchasing power (similar to halo)
Both games have a kill limit goal.
CO has extra points but does not have a limit.
My point is, for COv2, please have some cap on the levels or experience one can get.
It will provide that a limiting factor of some sorts.
At very least, it will put everyone in a situation where there is no alternative to pure skill
CO doesn't have that right now.
$0.02