locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1711482:date=Jun 9 2009, 04:47 PM:name=ljcrabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ljcrabs @ Jun 9 2009, 04:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing I would recommend is a bigger focus on player versus player combat (rather than attacking the CC/hive). A linear level with capture points and multiple spawn positions like in Insurgency/Day of Defeat/Team Fortress 2 would be much better because it means no one will have to play the boring heal spray spamming gorge or CC welding marine. It also gives you a much better understanding of who is winning, and whether you should attack now with your teammates or backtrack a bit to recap that point you just lost. And it should go without saying: get rid of spawn camping!
A tangential idea is to get rid of the score based leveling and change it to a flat, time-based leveling. This way you could experience a skill-match between you and your enemy more often, you would experience the whole tech tree more often (especially if you were a newbie), and you would be encouraged to attack constantly.
Another tangential idea is to give an advantage to the team that is losing, for example the more capture points you hold the lower level you are. This variation would create games without time limits where you would really need a considerable skill advantage or great teamwork to win, but at the same time the losing team would be more fun to play for the player that likes to dominate and likes a high kills:deaths ratio, which would keep the teams balanced.
Speaking as a giant hypocrite, before the constructive criticism of combat begins, what this group really needs is a clear and specific goal to work towards and that goal should be the answer to the question "why combat?" Everyone pitching criticism and ideas needs to be on the same page as to what the group is working towards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good post. I like your approach with time based leveling and removal of welding etc, but how would you convince players to move out of base?
<!--quoteo(post=1711506:date=Jun 9 2009, 04:06 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Jun 9 2009, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good post. I like your approach with time based leveling and removal of welding etc, but how would you convince players to move out of base?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just wanted to pop back in to mention I really like several of the ideas presented here. Specifically the 'capture point' as an alternative to the classic destroy the command chair/hive objective. I'm also investigating several other methods of controlling player abilities including different methods of gaining XP and leveling.
<!--quoteo(post=1711482:date=Jun 9 2009, 12:47 PM:name=ljcrabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ljcrabs @ Jun 9 2009, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A tangential idea is to get rid of the score based leveling and change it to a flat, time-based leveling. This way you could experience a skill-match between you and your enemy more often, you would experience the whole tech tree more often (especially if you were a newbie), and you would be encouraged to attack constantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I’m afraid I don't like that idea. When I play I want to be rewarded for my skill. If I am automatically given points to spend on a time interval then their is no incentive to try and play any better. I want to be rewarded for my effort, a reason to try harder.
<!--quoteo(post=1711482:date=Jun 9 2009, 12:47 PM:name=ljcrabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ljcrabs @ Jun 9 2009, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another tangential idea is to give an advantage to the team that is losing, for example the more capture points you hold the lower level you are. This variation would create games without time limits where you would really need a considerable skill advantage or great teamwork to win, but at the same time the losing team would be more fun to play for the player that likes to dominate and likes a high kills:deaths ratio, which would keep the teams balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok so you want to reward loosing teams and poor skills. You’re also punishing more skilled players for being good. it doesn’t make sense to me. Why in the world would a skilled player want to play if their skill is rewarded with punishment by being made weaker. There is no incentive, no reason to play. This style would not encourage players to develop any better skills. "oh yeah we just conquered the whole map and... wait, out team is crippled now!!?? What’s the point in trying?" Also this would encourage standoffs and cold wars with neither team wanting to advance past a certain point just so they become weaker and get slaughtered. No it's when a team had it's back against the wall in an impossable odds situation that people start learning how to shine. If that sometimes mean defeat then so be it but next time they will have learned from their mistakes and be better. Taking the sting out of loosing does not encourage learning, we learn most through our failures.
Lets face it, some people are better players than others and changing the game to make them equal will frustrate players. you can't force 100% balance. Why have all the skills when even noobs have a good chance to kill you now. Their is no reason to get any better. It's not fun. This idea is too Idealistic and not realistic.
devicenullJoin Date: 2003-04-30Member: 15967Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Combat is obviously going to make it to combat at some point. Too many people like it from NS1 for it to just vanish. It's really a waste of time to argue against it at this point. While you don't have to like it (I still don't), you do need to realize its inevitable.
<!--quoteo(post=1711827:date=Jun 11 2009, 07:47 AM:name=Optikal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Optikal @ Jun 11 2009, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I must have stopped playing Combat before the entire xmenu thing came out... what is xmenu?
I <3 classic mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Xmenu added upgrades to both sides and uncapped the level limit. The main issue was that many of these extra upgrades were quite overpowered.
<!--quoteo(post=1711878:date=Jun 11 2009, 01:39 PM:name=flying_moose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (flying_moose @ Jun 11 2009, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Xmenu added upgrades to both sides and uncapped the level limit. The main issue was that many of these extra upgrades were quite overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably the most overpowered one was one that was really HARD to build up, but once it got close to max, if you were a gorge you would release a pretty huge explosion that would kill any enemy close to you (at a fair good range, triggered with death). IIRC that was at least 10x more powerful than the Skulk´s last ability.
Anyway, CO Haters, you have every right to hate it, but don´t deny it being an option. TF2 has a bunch of different modes, there are some modes that i hate, but i´m glad every one of them is there. Even if 95% of the time that i play is spent on pl_ maps (goldrush & badwater).
Playing NS Classic on marines' side without a clan... can be a pain. And i bet CO brought a bunch of new players to NS1, at least i started to enjoy it much more after CO came out.
Every good FPS is "open-minded" to every kind of player, and you can´t expect 'every kind' to enjoy Classic fully. See if the noobs like to hold a LMG 100% of the time and not having any other mode to build up their skills, that sucks really...
Edit: Okay after reading my second paragraph again, i had to add that i´m only talking about the CO mode, and not the xmenu thing. I don´t really like it btw, though i admit that it was fun to an extent.
The only things you need to know: - Combat is not an official game mode. - - No sh-t, dumb-ss. - Some people don't like Combat. - - QQ more please. - Others would like to see the return of Combat as a mod. - - As a mod. - - - A mod. - Servers will be split into Vanilla and Custom categories. - - People that don't want to play Combat games can stick to Vanilla. Let me rephrase that. People that only want to play Vanilla games because they've got something stuck up their -sses leading to a stupid sense of vanity can keep it on the Vanilla setting. On the other hand, people that wish to, can play Combat as a mod. - - - A mod. - Just so you can't continue to cry about it, Vanilla will likely be the default server browsing selection. So by default, players will find Vanilla games. - - Happy?
There, everything solved.
now, flying_moose, you have my full support. I would love to play combat, especially for times when we'd only have 4-6 friends playing over the network. So go out there and get it done, son.
I do like both game modes of this game and I think Combat is useful to some extend.
Combat is good for: - learning the basic movement / aiming with life forms and weapons without being limited to ressources - a fast (fast is excluded from xmenu matches <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />) round of NS, where you can switch your brain off and just enjoy a nice deathmatch
Combat fails: - at "realistic" combat scenarios - at teaching tactics - teamwork to some extend
Also I want to add that people who say that it doesn't matter if you just suicide rush into your enemies, ever played on those public combat servers and after 3 mins the first guy has a Nade Launcher (without spawn protection) or even worse a Shotgun and JP, just because your four of your noob players keep constantly running into him and die. And without Teamwork even in Combat you can't kill nothing in my humbly opion, but the thing is ... people NEVER realize that it was teamwork, they just think "hey this guy just stole my kill and exp".
Why does NS Combat fail:
- as said before there is no limiting factor to the game. - there is nothing to emphasize people to run out of their base (especially when the other team is waiting to ambush them right away), besides that you want to win (but most of the time you want to farm frags) so there is no emphasize on winning - its a different game and it needs another type of balance, but if you change it drastically it wouldn't be useful for training anymore. - the maps sometimes seem to be very unbalanced - on given maps you encounter problems if you have too many players ("wall of shotgun or teeth"), is there any way to have a map open up new areas (like welded or infested) based on the player count ? - NS itself is really hard to learn (I guess this will be fixed in NS2) - it is no fun to just JP in and attack the hive /*at the same time*/ onos rush in to attack the comm chair (most public games come down to this or end with this scenario)
Solutions:
- The "Capture the Ress Node" Mode as mentioned above seems to be intersting. Especially if you add things like someone has to hold down his weapon or attack (like building in NS1) to recapture the point, so he needs to be guarded. It may slow down the fast paced game a bit, but it will help for the tactical part and maybe make it more fun to play overall. This can be very hard to balance. because Aliens might get quite strong with their faster base movement speed and scout abilties on their side. - Variable Map sizes as I stated above, but this might be hard to implement and you can always change to other maps, on the other hand it would add a lot to the replay value of that map. - Better balancing and map design overall. - this shop concept looks intersting too, so if you want some special upgrades you have to go to some special neutral point and be "defenseless" for some time
-> maybe this will make the combat2 more like a light version of ns2 (I don't know if combat1 was ever intended to be a light version of ns1, but it just isn't so...) and I'm not sure if the combat players like this at all, but there are some huge problems with balance / mapping / limiting that should be adressed somehow and if they get adressed well, there will be way more fun for all NS players, because of a better tactical educated player base and a bigger player base. If Combat2 is going to have a more tactical and teamwork approach many players will give the classic mode a try and might be impressed how awesome this RTS / FPS mash up really is <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I wish you good luck and I'm happy to hear that someone is going to sacrefice his valuable time for us to get some variation in the NS2 World.
I am, but then again. I'm glad CO is not going to be an official part of NS2 That fact still has me smiling cause I am not going to play on Modded servers If I can help it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />.
That 'combat' mod you mention sounds very similar to Tremulous, a free standalone game ( <a href="http://tremulous.net" target="_blank">http://tremulous.net</a> ). And it's not a compliment. If it's anything like Tremulous, then
- there's absolutely no reason to leave base. Players can just sit there and run patience contests to see who runs into turrets first. <b>This happens a lot in Tremulous.</b> - Combined with above, resource for kill (the only way to progress in Tremulous) means games are often not <i>won</i>, but <i>lost</i> by few <i>black sheep</i> players on your team who ignore orders, suggestions, pleas and everything and just go somewhere alone. Rambos, 'feeders', make everyone on their team lose. <b>This happens a lot in Tremulous.</b> - it makes tactical decision making and teamplay atrophy. - saying it doesn't influence classic mode is a fallacy, because these people do join regular games later. They bring their mentality with them.
I only played Natural Selection 1 for a limited time and never was a very experienced player. I played Tremulous later, and it <i>really</i> made me appreciate classic game mode <i>and design decision</i> of NS. If 'combat' mode of NS is anything like Tremulous, then it greatly sucks and I hope all attempts to create such a mod fail. Adding features does not necessarily make a game richer - there may be no-brainers. Blaster, Shotgun, Machine Gun, Hyperblaster were so bad in Quake 2 multiplayer people didn't bother to pick them up. Similarly, having more mods <i>can</i> make the base game worse, because mods which cause mental diseases spread their players to base game.
Just a random thought: If you're going to add additional xmenuish abilities into the co structure, keep them as close to the original game as possible. For example in present co you're basically forced to pick adren and possibly bloodlust to access half of the upgrades. Yet, I don't want to get even a bit accustomed to the infinite adren as you aren't going to have one in NS in any case (not that the rest of the xmenu is great for learning NS, but you get the point).
<!--quoteo(post=1712181:date=Jun 13 2009, 12:37 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 13 2009, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just a random thought: If you're going to add additional xmenuish abilities into the co structure, keep them as close to the original game as possible. For example in present co you're basically forced to pick adren and possibly bloodlust to access half of the upgrades. Yet, I don't want to get even a bit accustomed to the infinite adren as you aren't going to have one in NS in any case (not that the rest of the xmenu is great for learning NS, but you get the point).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I guess I should have given some clarification when I said I'd like to add "xmenuish" abilities to the NS2 CO. I would like to add abilities on top of the standard NS1 CO in order to leverage changes to NS2. My primary concern isn't just adding a bunch of abilities and going "Yay! We have more abilities!". Its getting those abilities to work well together in a balanced game mode. I do plan - at least at the moment - to keep combat a bit closer to what NS1 would be like without the marine-commander/resource-nodes. But until I see the changes already made in NS2, theres not really too much about the mechanics that I can finalize. I would like to have more then just a 'kill the hive or cc' objective, but more then likely that will come later in the scope of the project.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Jun 12 2009, 09:43 PM:name=MaS4Cr3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaS4Cr3 @ Jun 12 2009, 09:43 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PLEASE, WAIT 10 YEARS TO DEVELOP COMBAT "MOD"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Depending on when they release the development tools - I can see CO being done within 1-3 months of release.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=borsuk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (borsuk)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That 'combat' mod you mention sounds very similar to ...BLAH BLAH BLAH... I only played Natural Selection 1 for a limited time and never was a very experienced player. ...BLAH BLAH BLAH... If 'combat' mode of NS is anything like Tremulous, then it greatly sucks and I hope all attempts to create such a mod fail. ...BLAH BLAH BLAH... because mods which cause mental diseases spread their players to base game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Next time try playing the game before making ignorant statements comparing it to another game. Also while I was not aware of mods causing mental disease I can assure the populous that my code will be 100% mental disease free.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1712185:date=Jun 13 2009, 03:54 PM:name=flying_moose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (flying_moose @ Jun 13 2009, 03:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712185"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess I should have given some clarification when I said I'd like to add "xmenuish" abilities to the NS2 CO. I would like to add abilities on top of the standard NS1 CO in order to Next time try playing the game before making ignorant statements comparing it to another game. Also while I was not aware of mods causing mental disease I can assure the populous that my code will be 100% mental disease free.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought those were actually pretty insightful comments as I've never played Tremulous for any appreciable amount of time and was interested to hear the difference.
<!--quoteo(post=1712203:date=Jun 13 2009, 04:44 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Jun 13 2009, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712203"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought those were actually pretty insightful comments as I've never played Tremulous for any appreciable amount of time and was interested to hear the difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Re-reading his post - I will cede he makes 2 good points
-- Don't put in overpowered turrets (the reason people camp in Tremulous.) NS already has this issue covered. -- Adding features does not necessarily make a game better.
Edit: Harimau's post right below this one pretty much sums up my thoughts on borsuk's post on Trenulous, I just didn't feel like typing it all out. Many thanks.
<!--quoteo(post=1712177:date=Jun 14 2009, 02:16 AM:name=borsuk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (borsuk @ Jun 14 2009, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712177"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it's anything like Tremulous,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It isn't.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- there's absolutely no reason to leave base. Players can just sit there and run patience contests to see who runs into turrets first. <b>This happens a lot in Tremulous.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What turrets?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Combined with above, resource for kill (the only way to progress in Tremulous) means games are often not <i>won</i>, but <i>lost</i> by few <i>black sheep</i> players on your team who ignore orders, suggestions, pleas and everything and just go somewhere alone. Rambos, 'feeders', make everyone on their team lose. <b>This happens a lot in Tremulous.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A) There is(are) no commander(s). B) Effectively you get RFK, but in actuality you gain experience -> experience gives you levels -> levels allow you to get weapons/tools and unlock research-effects. Think of it in terms of an MMO. IF NS:NS is FPS/RTS, NS:CO is FPS/RPG.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- it makes tactical decision making and teamplay atrophy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> True. But people don't play Combat for the tactics, nor teamplay. It can be considered similar to CS in that respect.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- saying it doesn't influence classic mode is a fallacy, because these people do join regular games later. They bring their mentality with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Arguable, I suppose. I see where you're coming from, but I think the effect is negligible.
Comments
A tangential idea is to get rid of the score based leveling and change it to a flat, time-based leveling. This way you could experience a skill-match between you and your enemy more often, you would experience the whole tech tree more often (especially if you were a newbie), and you would be encouraged to attack constantly.
Another tangential idea is to give an advantage to the team that is losing, for example the more capture points you hold the lower level you are. This variation would create games without time limits where you would really need a considerable skill advantage or great teamwork to win, but at the same time the losing team would be more fun to play for the player that likes to dominate and likes a high kills:deaths ratio, which would keep the teams balanced.
Speaking as a giant hypocrite, before the constructive criticism of combat begins, what this group really needs is a clear and specific goal to work towards and that goal should be the answer to the question "why combat?" Everyone pitching criticism and ideas needs to be on the same page as to what the group is working towards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good post. I like your approach with time based leveling and removal of welding etc, but how would you convince players to move out of base?
I just wanted to pop back in to mention I really like several of the ideas presented here. Specifically the 'capture point' as an alternative to the classic destroy the command chair/hive objective. I'm also investigating several other methods of controlling player abilities including different methods of gaining XP and leveling.
I’m afraid I don't like that idea. When I play I want to be rewarded for my skill. If I am automatically given points to spend on a time interval then their is no incentive to try and play any better. I want to be rewarded for my effort, a reason to try harder.
<!--quoteo(post=1711482:date=Jun 9 2009, 12:47 PM:name=ljcrabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ljcrabs @ Jun 9 2009, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another tangential idea is to give an advantage to the team that is losing, for example the more capture points you hold the lower level you are. This variation would create games without time limits where you would really need a considerable skill advantage or great teamwork to win, but at the same time the losing team would be more fun to play for the player that likes to dominate and likes a high kills:deaths ratio, which would keep the teams balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok so you want to reward loosing teams and poor skills. You’re also punishing more skilled players for being good. it doesn’t make sense to me. Why in the world would a skilled player want to play if their skill is rewarded with punishment by being made weaker. There is no incentive, no reason to play. This style would not encourage players to develop any better skills. "oh yeah we just conquered the whole map and... wait, out team is crippled now!!?? What’s the point in trying?" Also this would encourage standoffs and cold wars with neither team wanting to advance past a certain point just so they become weaker and get slaughtered. No it's when a team had it's back against the wall in an impossable odds situation that people start learning how to shine. If that sometimes mean defeat then so be it but next time they will have learned from their mistakes and be better. Taking the sting out of loosing does not encourage learning, we learn most through our failures.
Lets face it, some people are better players than others and changing the game to make them equal will frustrate players. you can't force 100% balance. Why have all the skills when even noobs have a good chance to kill you now. Their is no reason to get any better. It's not fun. This idea is too Idealistic and not realistic.
-OR-
Make the maps so small and unfun that you want to play Classic maps. Think fy_iceworld -----> co_iceworld.
-OR-
Don't include so many levels and make every item cost 1 point.
-OR-
Include a Commander.
-OR-
Play the regular game.
-OR-
-_-
-OR-
Make the maps so small and unfun that you want to play Classic maps. Think fy_iceworld -----> co_iceworld.
-OR-
Don't include so many levels and make every item cost 1 point.
-OR-
Include a Commander.
-OR-
Play the regular game.
-OR-
-_-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-OR-
Make everything and everyone invisible.
I <3 classic mode.
I <3 classic mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Xmenu added upgrades to both sides and uncapped the level limit. The main issue was that many of these extra upgrades were quite overpowered.
Probably the most overpowered one was one that was really HARD to build up, but once it got close to max, if you were a gorge you would release a pretty huge explosion that would kill any enemy close to you (at a fair good range, triggered with death). IIRC that was at least 10x more powerful than the Skulk´s last ability.
Anyway, CO Haters, you have every right to hate it, but don´t deny it being an option. TF2 has a bunch of different modes, there are some modes that i hate, but i´m glad every one of them is there. Even if 95% of the time that i play is spent on pl_ maps (goldrush & badwater).
Playing NS Classic on marines' side without a clan... can be a pain. And i bet CO brought a bunch of new players to NS1, at least i started to enjoy it much more after CO came out.
Every good FPS is "open-minded" to every kind of player, and you can´t expect 'every kind' to enjoy Classic fully. See if the noobs like to hold a LMG 100% of the time and not having any other mode to build up their skills, that sucks really...
Edit: Okay after reading my second paragraph again, i had to add that i´m only talking about the CO mode, and not the xmenu thing. I don´t really like it btw, though i admit that it was fun to an extent.
The only things you need to know:
- Combat is not an official game mode.
- - No sh-t, dumb-ss.
- Some people don't like Combat.
- - QQ more please.
- Others would like to see the return of Combat as a mod.
- - As a mod.
- - - A mod.
- Servers will be split into Vanilla and Custom categories.
- - People that don't want to play Combat games can stick to Vanilla. Let me rephrase that. People that only want to play Vanilla games because they've got something stuck up their -sses leading to a stupid sense of vanity can keep it on the Vanilla setting. On the other hand, people that wish to, can play Combat as a mod.
- - - A mod.
- Just so you can't continue to cry about it, Vanilla will likely be the default server browsing selection. So by default, players will find Vanilla games.
- - Happy?
There, everything solved.
now, flying_moose, you have my full support. I would love to play combat, especially for times when we'd only have 4-6 friends playing over the network. So go out there and get it done, son.
Has not yet left the NS2 and already you are thinking of modifying it. Well ... very well.
¬¬
I say.
PLEASE, WAIT 10 YEARS TO DEVELOP COMBAT "MOD"
Combat is good for:
- learning the basic movement / aiming with life forms and weapons without being limited to ressources
- a fast (fast is excluded from xmenu matches <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />) round of NS, where you can switch your brain off and just enjoy a nice deathmatch
Combat fails:
- at "realistic" combat scenarios
- at teaching tactics
- teamwork to some extend
Also I want to add that people who say that it doesn't matter if you just suicide rush into your enemies, ever played on those public combat servers and after 3 mins the first guy has a Nade Launcher (without spawn protection) or even worse a Shotgun and JP, just because your four of your noob players keep constantly running into him and die. And without Teamwork even in Combat you can't kill nothing in my humbly opion, but the thing is ... people NEVER realize that it was teamwork, they just think "hey this guy just stole my kill and exp".
Why does NS Combat fail:
- as said before there is no limiting factor to the game.
- there is nothing to emphasize people to run out of their base (especially when the other team is waiting to ambush them right away), besides that you want to win (but most of the time you want to farm frags) so there is no emphasize on winning
- its a different game and it needs another type of balance, but if you change it drastically it wouldn't be useful for training anymore.
- the maps sometimes seem to be very unbalanced
- on given maps you encounter problems if you have too many players ("wall of shotgun or teeth"), is there any way to have a map open up new areas (like welded or infested) based on the player count ?
- NS itself is really hard to learn (I guess this will be fixed in NS2)
- it is no fun to just JP in and attack the hive /*at the same time*/ onos rush in to attack the comm chair (most public games come down to this or end with this scenario)
Solutions:
- The "Capture the Ress Node" Mode as mentioned above seems to be intersting. Especially if you add things like someone has to hold down his weapon or attack (like building in NS1) to recapture the point, so he needs to be guarded. It may slow down the fast paced game a bit, but it will help for the tactical part and maybe make it more fun to play overall. This can be very hard to balance. because Aliens might get quite strong with their faster base movement speed and scout abilties on their side.
- Variable Map sizes as I stated above, but this might be hard to implement and you can always change to other maps, on the other hand it would add a lot to the replay value of that map.
- Better balancing and map design overall.
- this shop concept looks intersting too, so if you want some special upgrades you have to go to some special neutral point and be "defenseless" for some time
-> maybe this will make the combat2 more like a light version of ns2 (I don't know if combat1 was ever intended to be a light version of ns1, but it just isn't so...) and I'm not sure if the combat players like this at all, but there are some huge problems with balance / mapping / limiting that should be adressed somehow and if they get adressed well, there will be way more fun for all NS players, because of a better tactical educated player base and a bigger player base. If Combat2 is going to have a more tactical and teamwork approach many players will give the classic mode a try and might be impressed how awesome this RTS / FPS mash up really is <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I wish you good luck and I'm happy to hear that someone is going to sacrefice his valuable time for us to get some variation in the NS2 World.
PLEASE, WAIT 10 YEARS TO DEVELOP COMBAT "MOD"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good thing no one's <i>listening</i>.
Personally I'd advise to wait and see how large the playerbase will be before we start spreading it out over multiple gamemodes.
- there's absolutely no reason to leave base. Players can just sit there and run patience contests to see who runs into turrets first. <b>This happens a lot in Tremulous.</b>
- Combined with above, resource for kill (the only way to progress in Tremulous) means games are often not <i>won</i>, but <i>lost</i> by few <i>black sheep</i> players on your team who ignore orders, suggestions, pleas and everything and just go somewhere alone. Rambos, 'feeders', make everyone on their team lose. <b>This happens a lot in Tremulous.</b>
- it makes tactical decision making and teamplay atrophy.
- saying it doesn't influence classic mode is a fallacy, because these people do join regular games later. They bring their mentality with them.
I only played Natural Selection 1 for a limited time and never was a very experienced player. I played Tremulous later, and it <i>really</i> made me appreciate classic game mode <i>and design decision</i> of NS. If 'combat' mode of NS is anything like Tremulous, then it greatly sucks and I hope all attempts to create such a mod fail. Adding features does not necessarily make a game richer - there may be no-brainers. Blaster, Shotgun, Machine Gun, Hyperblaster were so bad in Quake 2 multiplayer people didn't bother to pick them up. Similarly, having more mods <i>can</i> make the base game worse, because mods which cause mental diseases spread their players to base game.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Jun 12 2009, 09:43 PM:name=MaS4Cr3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaS4Cr3 @ Jun 12 2009, 09:43 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PLEASE, WAIT 10 YEARS TO DEVELOP COMBAT "MOD"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Depending on when they release the development tools - I can see CO being done within 1-3 months of release.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=borsuk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (borsuk)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That 'combat' mod you mention sounds very similar to ...BLAH BLAH BLAH... I only played Natural Selection 1 for a limited time and never was a very experienced player. ...BLAH BLAH BLAH... If 'combat' mode of NS is anything like Tremulous, then it greatly sucks and I hope all attempts to create such a mod fail. ...BLAH BLAH BLAH... because mods which cause mental diseases spread their players to base game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Next time try playing the game before making ignorant statements comparing it to another game. Also while I was not aware of mods causing mental disease I can assure the populous that my code will be 100% mental disease free.
The problem is when servers with 10> players are with combats :/
Next time try playing the game before making ignorant statements comparing it to another game. Also while I was not aware of mods causing mental disease I can assure the populous that my code will be 100% mental disease free.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought those were actually pretty insightful comments as I've never played Tremulous for any appreciable amount of time and was interested to hear the difference.
Re-reading his post - I will cede he makes 2 good points
-- Don't put in overpowered turrets (the reason people camp in Tremulous.) NS already has this issue covered.
-- Adding features does not necessarily make a game better.
Edit: Harimau's post right below this one pretty much sums up my thoughts on borsuk's post on Trenulous, I just didn't feel like typing it all out. Many thanks.
It isn't.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- there's absolutely no reason to leave base. Players can just sit there and run patience contests to see who runs into turrets first. <b>This happens a lot in Tremulous.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What turrets?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Combined with above, resource for kill (the only way to progress in Tremulous) means games are often not <i>won</i>, but <i>lost</i> by few <i>black sheep</i> players on your team who ignore orders, suggestions, pleas and everything and just go somewhere alone. Rambos, 'feeders', make everyone on their team lose. <b>This happens a lot in Tremulous.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A) There is(are) no commander(s).
B) Effectively you get RFK, but in actuality you gain experience -> experience gives you levels -> levels allow you to get weapons/tools and unlock research-effects. Think of it in terms of an MMO. IF NS:NS is FPS/RTS, NS:CO is FPS/RPG.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- it makes tactical decision making and teamplay atrophy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. But people don't play Combat for the tactics, nor teamplay. It can be considered similar to CS in that respect.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- saying it doesn't influence classic mode is a fallacy, because these people do join regular games later. They bring their mentality with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Arguable, I suppose. I see where you're coming from, but I think the effect is negligible.