Except that this wouldn't just be a novelty. If some the ideas in this thread were put in (like being bit, jumping etc shakes your view) it would actually help tactics. Aliens would be able to see if there well hidden, marines wouldn't be able to get perfect shot off when there being torn apart by a skulk (aliens SHOULD have a close range advantage because they have a serious long range disadvantage), and marines would better be able to dodge and hide from an onos if its so large it can't turn around and check every nook and cranny instantly. It would also mean that marines wouldn't be hopping all over the space ship like small children on steroids and would actually have to move more tactically, that to me seems like something the would increase the competitiveness of the game?
COD4 had the best usage of first-person camera rolling/shaking and I'm sure that's just what NS2 may have.
<!--quoteo(post=1711815:date=Jun 11 2009, 07:10 AM:name=mf-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mf- @ Jun 11 2009, 07:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cod4 was ###### horrendous in terms of pure skill, more teamwork orientated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1711678:date=Jun 10 2009, 06:04 PM:name=derWalter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (derWalter @ Jun 10 2009, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as i said, i like playing fast, so my reactions i trained seperate me from the others. with all this stuff (man the first thing i've done in crysis was to turn off this motionblur... ah...) on my eyes always start to squint/peer. i cant play games like this longer as 5minutes, then i have to stop. only because this "super effects..." i only want to turn it on, if anyone like it so much to play with it, no problem for me, but everyone should be able to turn it off (so its eaqual to everyone..!)
and if this concept would be out of date, why are so much ppl playing cs and cs:s? its still the most played multiplayer game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hah yeah. hey listen, why don't you do us all a favour and go play another round of red pixel vs cursor or something?
MF do us all favor, if you want serious compettion why don't you go play Counter-Strike where theres minimal teamwork and you can excel at personal skill, NS has always been and will always be a TEAMWORK based game, and these "novelties" are geared towards making the game fair, like an above poster said skulks have a SERIOUS long-range disadvantage, so they should receive some kind of close range advantage such as making the marines screen shake a little when getting bitten so he can't just casually spin around and blow the skulk away with a shotty. The idea here with these camera movement suggestions is to give the marines and aliens each advantages and disadvantages to enhance the gameplay instead of making this just another Counter-Strike with marine and alien models.
Semtex, i think anyone who has played NS at a high level can see thee teamwork required. Especially in the alien side of it. I'm not trying to turn this into a competition / casual argument. My original statement was just to say its good to know that max is considering the competitive aspect of the game.
IMO if you want to compete in a game, you best learn to conquer ALL aspects of the game, INCLUDING the camera system.
All of us didn't just pick up Black and White and Win instantly, it was a new style. This isn't even a new camera style and people are complaing, it would probably make the game look A LOT cooler and add a lot of depth to the game.
If ( And I hope it does ) NS2 comes with a Realistic Camera with movement for every action you do than it should not turn people away from this game, instead they should look at it as a new challenge.
Most of the FPS games to date (don't quote me on it) have very non realistic cameras which help with the games over all playability and they are much more competitive, HL Engine and Source engine games include this, sad to say but truth be told your a floating pair of hands for god sake. Yes you see when you reload which adds depth.
In the long run what im trying to say is that it would add depth to the game to add a ME style of camera and yes people would have to adapt to the camera style, but think about it. Your playing NS2 the camera style looks as if your watching a Sci fi movie, yet your still kicking ass in the process.
I also like the idea of seeing limbs to see if your arm is sticking out a vent as a skulk.
I just hope if the Onos has any kind of trample ability, the screen shakes, rattles, and rolls.
Oh and if you get headshotted as a Marine by another Marine or Alien, your view shakes as well. Marine vs. Marine anyone? =)
One thing that always had irked me in FPS games is that when you fall from a large height (but do not die), your camera rarely shakes to simulate a heavy impact.
<!--quoteo(post=1711920:date=Jun 11 2009, 07:53 PM:name=Xain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xain @ Jun 11 2009, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO if you want to compete in a game, you best learn to conquer ALL aspects of the game, INCLUDING the camera system.
All of us didn't just pick up Black and White and Win instantly, it was a new style. This isn't even a new camera style and people are complaing, it would probably make the game look A LOT cooler and add a lot of depth to the game.
If ( And I hope it does ) NS2 comes with a Realistic Camera with movement for every action you do than it should not turn people away from this game, instead they should look at it as a new challenge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been looking for a way to say this very thing without running the risk of being flamed by all of these awesome competitive players, so I'll just quote it. Pow! I hate being killed by someone shooting my exposed head when I'm so neatly tucked away in a vent.
I think players are coming into this with the wrong idea. This isn't Natural Selection. This is Natural Selection 2, and as such I would think that there would be several key enhancements from its parent. MEs camera system IS the future. Embrace it, for the sake of <strike>your children!</strike> the HORDE!
Its a good thing the developers arn't listening to all the casual gamers, or this would be unplayable in competition. Do you know how ###### anooying it would be playing against a good player that if he shoots you in the head everytime you see him your entire screen jumps up (yes i'm aware this was in w: et but it fit in with game style)..
I've seen some absolute retardness on these forums, people asking for bitten marines to temporarily be unable to shoot their guns ect. This ###### SOUNDS cool, but does not WORK !
In end of day, if you can turn it off. I dont care. Being able to fine tune a game is what makes it so great. If you can turn it off it caters to both arguments. But remember your putting yourself at a massive disadvantage.. so go figure. What do you want, fancy game features or to win.
<!--quoteo(post=1711762:date=Jun 11 2009, 03:01 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Jun 11 2009, 03:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Woah this thread is a slight overreaction<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, people are blowing this way out of proportion.
This will simply be a way to really "polish" the game, and enable us SE pre-orders to check out our <i>own</i> black armour. It will not be an impediment to gameplay that wasn't already there.
And that comment is directed at the Kharaan concerns. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the alient 'views' have changed dramatically anyway, but I fully expected to see the Skulk view restrictions, and maybe some other quirkly characteristics amongst the classes. So long as everyone is equally limited, then it's fair within the context of the game.
People who used to cry about the Skulk were just being ridiculous, it never stopped anyone decimating as a skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1711631:date=Jun 10 2009, 09:36 PM:name=pellaaja)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pellaaja @ Jun 10 2009, 09:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't mind. I think it's boring and horribly outdated concept that your crosshair is a static point and you can shoot/bite/etc. no matter what hits you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You say outdated, I say tried-and-true.
<!--quoteo(post=1711978:date=Jun 12 2009, 05:32 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jun 12 2009, 05:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You say outdated, I say tried-and-true.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the tried and true idea was always followed nothing would ever be invented and we would still be hunting animals with our tried but true sharp wooden spears.
<!--quoteo(post=1712115:date=Jun 13 2009, 03:00 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jun 13 2009, 03:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a bit of an <b>exaggeration</b>. Well, not just a bit.
What would you suggest, then? Sacrifice accessibility - sacrifice gameplay, for realism?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe combining the two?
It's always realism vs gameplay vs graphics, but really the three can be combined to create something special and to be honest most games need all three. It really is just getting the balance right and fine tuning it.
NS always stood apart from the regular Counter-Strike FPS genre, I can still remember first booting up NS and thinking I was in a sci-fi action movie, now looking back at how ###### the graphics are I don't think that for a second. Like an above poster said there has to be a balance between gameplay/features/graphics and I don't think sacrificing features or graphics for the sake of competition is fair because NS was meant to stand apart from CS and CoD and Battlefield, even CoD implemented some camera movement features.
If the NS devs truely wanted to make a competition based game they would have stuck with the Source engine, but instead they had to design their own because there were more features and aspects that the normal Source FPS based engine could not provide, that right there PROVES that this should not be another CS.
Bottom line, if you want competition go back to Halo or CS.
Okay well let me put this forward. When I want to see something in my periphery, I don't turn my entire head, I just look in that direction. Now, considering that inversely, if I move my head I can continue to focus on the same point by turning my eyes. So even if someone gets knocked, unless it's something extreme, they can continue to focus on the point they were looking at before - the view would barely change, if at all. So, external animations are fine, but there should be little or no change to the first person camera view. But I say go with a little change, just to add that subtle effect - maybe have it wobble a bit for instance, quickly correcting the aberration in the view. Just don't mess with a player's view of their surroundings or their targets, you know.
5emtex: I have to contradict you. The devs, originally, weren't thinking of making it a competitive game, true. But as the game built up a competitive community, they started working with both the casual and competitive communities (if there is such a clear divide) and had to strike a balance, though I hear they still made the game optimised for 6v6 competition matches. But the point is, wild aberrations to someone's view will piss -anyone- off; it'd just piss off competitive gamers more. Players are still players, if the game doesn't do what they want it to do (from an interface perspective), they're not going to enjoy it. Ever played a fighting game with a DDR pad? It <b>works</b> but it's not going to be the best way to play it, is it?
<!--quoteo(post=1712135:date=Jun 13 2009, 05:41 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jun 13 2009, 05:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5emtex: I have to contradict you. The devs, originally, weren't thinking of making it a competitive game, true. But as the game built up a competitive community, they started working with both the casual and competitive communities (if there is such a clear divide) and had to strike a balance, though I hear they still made the game optimised for 6v6 competition matches. But the point is, wild aberrations to someone's view will piss -anyone- off; it'd just piss off competitive gamers more. Players are still players, if the game doesn't do what they want it to do (from an interface perspective), they're not going to enjoy it. Ever played a fighting game with a DDR pad? It <b>works</b> but it's not going to be the best way to play it, is it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is a competition if not play inside game rules and mechanics? You "competitive gamers" is more about people that are used to some aspects of a game (oh the wonderful "floating hands") than gamers that are good at one game beside it specific set of rules and limitations.
An even competition is about balance, and not restrictions that apply to every player.
You are talking about other thing, and not competition...
Firstly, I'm not a competitive gamer. Secondly, casual is probably too soft a word to use too. Finally, except in extreme cases, wild aberrations aren't realistic (games that do have this piss me off), distract from the actual game (the actual game - you know, where the competition takes place?), and are annoying. On the other hand, it's more cinematic... in a Blair Witch kind of manner. Right. Keep it in-engine for machinima or something, but keep the effect subtle (at most) for the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1712230:date=Jun 13 2009, 09:56 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jun 13 2009, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Firstly, I'm not a competitive gamer. Secondly, casual is probably too soft a word to use too. Finally, except in extreme cases, wild aberrations aren't realistic (games that do have this piss me off), distract from the actual game (the actual game - you know, where the competition takes place?), and are annoying. On the other hand, it's more cinematic... in a Blair Witch kind of manner. Right. Keep it in-engine for machinima or something, but keep the effect subtle (at most) for the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. I'm no competitive player by any means, but a lot of the times games have those camera movements for the sake of having camera movements, and it detracts from immersion because its so bizarre or unrealistic.
I never said the movement has to be something crazy, nor did I say it has to be super realistic, what I said in my original post was that skulks for instance have a ridiculus disadvantage in long range combat, if a marine sees a skulk running towards him he can open fire and begin dealing damage way before the skulk can, no complaint there obviously since marines have firearms. What I think though is that if the skulk can get in close enough to a marine to bite him, he should get a some kind of reward/benefit in that it makes the marines screen shake a little, throw off his aim for a fraction of a second which gives a skilled skulk player the ability to get in that last chomp for the kill before the marine can get in a perfect shotty blast. Now I think a skilled marine should be able to make a pretty good attempt at adjustment and occasionally still get the shot off even though the screen is shaking. Ultimately I think the camera movements are about benefits and disadavantages more than the realism though that is a side benefit.
Obviously there's no real skulks to test whether your view gets skewed if you get bit but think about a wild aggressive dog instead. If a dog was running at you because it was rabid or something and was going to attack you when it pounces and jumps onto you, you don't think you will stumble a bit or recoil from the impact of the pounce? I think you would, I don't think your view would stay in the exact same spot. The effect could be similar to the effect in Left 4 Dead when a hunter pounces on someone near you and your character kind of stumbles for a fraction of a second. It doesn't have to be a very long effect, it could be a fraction of a second but to a skilled player or even a noob, a fraction of a second could be the difference between getting killed or making a kill.
Comments
<!--quoteo(post=1711815:date=Jun 11 2009, 07:10 AM:name=mf-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mf- @ Jun 11 2009, 07:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cod4 was ###### horrendous in terms of pure skill, more teamwork orientated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, teamwork is a detriment to pro gameplay?
with all this stuff (man the first thing i've done in crysis was to turn off this motionblur... ah...) on my eyes always start to squint/peer.
i cant play games like this longer as 5minutes, then i have to stop. only because this "super effects..."
i only want to turn it on, if anyone like it so much to play with it, no problem for me, but everyone should be able to turn it off (so its eaqual to everyone..!)
and if this concept would be out of date, why are so much ppl playing cs and cs:s? its still the most played multiplayer game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hah yeah. hey listen, why don't you do us all a favour and go play another round of red pixel vs cursor or something?
All of us didn't just pick up Black and White and Win instantly, it was a new style. This isn't even a new
camera style and people are complaing, it would probably make the game look A LOT cooler and add a lot
of depth to the game.
If ( And I hope it does ) NS2 comes with a Realistic Camera with movement for every action you do
than it should not turn people away from this game, instead they should look at it as a new challenge.
Most of the FPS games to date (don't quote me on it) have very non realistic cameras which help with
the games over all playability and they are much more competitive, HL Engine and Source engine games
include this, sad to say but truth be told your a floating pair of hands for god sake. Yes you see when you
reload which adds depth.
In the long run what im trying to say is that it would add depth to the game to add a ME style of camera and
yes people would have to adapt to the camera style, but think about it. Your playing NS2 the camera style looks
as if your watching a Sci fi movie, yet your still kicking ass in the process.
I also like the idea of seeing limbs to see if your arm is sticking out a vent as a skulk.
Oh and if you get headshotted as a Marine by another Marine or Alien, your view shakes as well. Marine vs. Marine anyone? =)
One thing that always had irked me in FPS games is that when you fall from a large height (but do not die), your camera rarely shakes to simulate a heavy impact.
All of us didn't just pick up Black and White and Win instantly, it was a new style. This isn't even a new
camera style and people are complaing, it would probably make the game look A LOT cooler and add a lot
of depth to the game.
If ( And I hope it does ) NS2 comes with a Realistic Camera with movement for every action you do
than it should not turn people away from this game, instead they should look at it as a new challenge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been looking for a way to say this very thing without running the risk of being flamed by all of these awesome competitive players, so I'll just quote it. Pow!
I hate being killed by someone shooting my exposed head when I'm so neatly tucked away in a vent.
I think players are coming into this with the wrong idea. This isn't Natural Selection. This is Natural Selection 2, and as such I would think that there would be several key enhancements from its parent. MEs camera system IS the future. Embrace it, for the sake of <strike>your children!</strike> the HORDE!
I've seen some absolute retardness on these forums, people asking for bitten marines to temporarily be unable to shoot their guns ect. This ###### SOUNDS cool, but does not WORK !
In end of day, if you can turn it off. I dont care. Being able to fine tune a game is what makes it so great. If you can turn it off it caters to both arguments. But remember your putting yourself at a massive disadvantage.. so go figure. What do you want, fancy game features or to win.
Agreed, people are blowing this way out of proportion.
This will simply be a way to really "polish" the game, and enable us SE pre-orders to check out our <i>own</i> black armour.
It will not be an impediment to gameplay that wasn't already there.
And that comment is directed at the Kharaan concerns. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the alient 'views' have changed dramatically anyway, but I fully expected to see the Skulk view restrictions, and maybe some other quirkly characteristics amongst the classes. So long as everyone is equally limited, then it's fair within the context of the game.
People who used to cry about the Skulk were just being ridiculous, it never stopped anyone decimating as a skulk.
You say outdated, I say tried-and-true.
If the tried and true idea was always followed nothing would ever be invented and we would still be hunting animals with our tried but true sharp wooden spears.
Well, not just a bit.
What would you suggest, then? Sacrifice accessibility - sacrifice gameplay, for realism?
Well, not just a bit.
What would you suggest, then? Sacrifice accessibility - sacrifice gameplay, for realism?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe combining the two?
It's always realism vs gameplay vs graphics, but really the three can be combined to create something special and to be honest most games need all three. It really is just getting the balance right and fine tuning it.
If the NS devs truely wanted to make a competition based game they would have stuck with the Source engine, but instead they had to design their own because there were more features and aspects that the normal Source FPS based engine could not provide, that right there PROVES that this should not be another CS.
Bottom line, if you want competition go back to Halo or CS.
5emtex: I have to contradict you. The devs, originally, weren't thinking of making it a competitive game, true. But as the game built up a competitive community, they started working with both the casual and competitive communities (if there is such a clear divide) and had to strike a balance, though I hear they still made the game optimised for 6v6 competition matches.
But the point is, wild aberrations to someone's view will piss -anyone- off; it'd just piss off competitive gamers more. Players are still players, if the game doesn't do what they want it to do (from an interface perspective), they're not going to enjoy it. Ever played a fighting game with a DDR pad? It <b>works</b> but it's not going to be the best way to play it, is it?
But the point is, wild aberrations to someone's view will piss -anyone- off; it'd just piss off competitive gamers more. Players are still players, if the game doesn't do what they want it to do (from an interface perspective), they're not going to enjoy it. Ever played a fighting game with a DDR pad? It <b>works</b> but it's not going to be the best way to play it, is it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is a competition if not play inside game rules and mechanics?
You "competitive gamers" is more about people that are used to some aspects of a game (oh the wonderful "floating hands") than gamers that are good at one game beside it specific set of rules and limitations.
An even competition is about balance, and not restrictions that apply to every player.
You are talking about other thing, and not competition...
Finally, except in extreme cases, wild aberrations aren't realistic (games that do have this piss me off), distract from the actual game (the actual game - you know, where the competition takes place?), and are annoying. On the other hand, it's more cinematic... in a Blair Witch kind of manner. Right.
Keep it in-engine for machinima or something, but keep the effect subtle (at most) for the game.
Finally, except in extreme cases, wild aberrations aren't realistic (games that do have this piss me off), distract from the actual game (the actual game - you know, where the competition takes place?), and are annoying. On the other hand, it's more cinematic... in a Blair Witch kind of manner. Right.
Keep it in-engine for machinima or something, but keep the effect subtle (at most) for the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. I'm no competitive player by any means, but a lot of the times games have those camera movements for the sake of having camera movements, and it detracts from immersion because its so bizarre or unrealistic.
Obviously there's no real skulks to test whether your view gets skewed if you get bit but think about a wild aggressive dog instead. If a dog was running at you because it was rabid or something and was going to attack you when it pounces and jumps onto you, you don't think you will stumble a bit or recoil from the impact of the pounce? I think you would, I don't think your view would stay in the exact same spot. The effect could be similar to the effect in Left 4 Dead when a hunter pounces on someone near you and your character kind of stumbles for a fraction of a second. It doesn't have to be a very long effect, it could be a fraction of a second but to a skilled player or even a noob, a fraction of a second could be the difference between getting killed or making a kill.
I love the idea of knowing where the skulk is biting you from by the way the camera moves.