<!--quoteo(post=1719521:date=Jul 27 2009, 02:58 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thansal @ Jul 27 2009, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A note: Everyone seems to be assuming that all that money they have raked in via preorders goes directly to development costs. Most likely a significant portion of that goes to their investors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An educated guess would be at most 40% and at the very least 15% of UWE is built upon investment drawn revenue.
I do kind of agree with the OP, the dev's should not try to cut corners, but really, I dropped 60$ on pre-orders and could care less if they took the money and ran, NS1 was the best game I had ever played, well worth it.
I have a deep concern, that this 'minimalism' is just an excuse (yes, it's widely overused in many genres, from architecture, through art, music, to game development)
There is a risk that it will flatten the game and make it just another sci-fi shooter we have LOTS of nowadays. Getting rid of all not-100%-necessary stuff, leaving only bare to the bone equipment, minimalistic weapons (2 in 1), minimalistic map design and map number (as they say: "to avoid confusion by new players") and simplest possible game mechanics. You can't just place a sticker that says "easy to learn, hard to master" to everything. It doesn't work like that.
What made NS1 so great was REALISM and not beforehand established gameplay rules, like hey seem to do now - precalculate and balance everything out, so there's nothing left to explore.
Now, how is NS2 going to differentiate itself on the market when it's released? No offence, but from the visual standpoint it looks like any other dark and "worn-out industrial like theme" sci-fi game and from what the creators say it will be even more simplified than I expected in terms of content and gameplay.
Minimalistic approach towards game development means they try to get as much out of every line of code etc. Spending 3 months on a feature, when something with similar results can be achieved in 2 weeks, is just not a reality in game design (specifically with small groups and limited budgets). This approach has to be taken in order to meet deadlines and get the game out the door. Not all developers have, for example, the time and resources that someone like Gabe Newell did during the development of Half-Life. He did very well at microsoft and in future projects so he was able to basically remove deadlines and focus completely on quality.
Do not confuse this with a minimalistic approach in art music etc. that is a chosen artistic style, completely different to what Charlie was referring to.
Minimalist could mean minimalist architecture, design or code.
I suspect their approach is minimalist on all of the above, including design (to a certain extent). That's not inherently a bad thing, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing either, depends how they go about it.
Given that these are the guys who gave us NS1, and how clearly passionate they are about NS2; I'm prepared to have a little faith.
<!--quoteo(post=1719550:date=Jul 27 2009, 08:55 PM:name=Skyforger2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skyforger2 @ Jul 27 2009, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look at GTA IV PC when it came out it was unplayable !!! then they made patch and still make as we speak !<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> GTA IV is still unplayable on PC. As the developers sayd, it is build for future computers not for todays. They told me this after I had installed the game :) Great work from rockstar games [/sarcasm]. As the result I will never again buy rockstar game.
I don't think UWE is lazy. They just don't have time or resources.
Really? So you're telling me that I've bought my PC through a time machine and played GTA4? Plus, my computer isn't highest-end. It's very good (more than should be required for a game as "old" as GTA4) but nowhere near futuristic.
<!--quoteo(post=1720090:date=Jul 30 2009, 04:06 PM:name=Tom Hoen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom Hoen @ Jul 30 2009, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As the result I will never again buy rockstar game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whoa, whoa, Rockstar Toronto did the PC version, not Rockstar North (who made all the good GTAs). Don't blame the original company for another company's bad work. If I felt Opposing Force sucked (which it didn't) I would not subsequently shun everything ever made by Valve. You're blaming the wrong people, here.
Actually kind of like the op, who is blaming UWE for not pandering to his little knowledge + design whims. If NS1 was as brilliant as you thought it was, don't you think some creative licence is allowed by <b><i>the man who invented it</i></b>. You claim such thinking has ruined games, but then think about Team Fortress 2, a game made by the same people as Team Fortress and Classic. It is a similar but nevertheless very different 'sequel' that gave out very little details during the course of its development. NS2 are giving out more information than the TF2 team, and you should trust that Charlie knows what he's doing. Have a little faith in the team that you claim to like so much.
"There is a difference between being lazy, and being efficient and economical."
Being an art asset creator myself, this is the only forum post that is correct.
I develop art assets for games too and coming from that POV, and working in a smaller, tighter Development team we certainly aren't being LAZY when we decide to drop features or assets.
If a feature or asset is dropped, it's likely because it drastically changes the current dynamic of the game. Like suddenly seeing a gun that shoots sharks with lazers on their heads in a game based around modern realistic-combat in the Middle east, for example.
Or, it is too "heavy" - the asset/feature itself has too much weight. Too much weight: - It severly overpowers a user or team. - Implementing it will break dynamics, gameplay or balance. - Implementing it will increase the final products download by an unreasonable amount (particularly true for flash games, or other online games), and that can actually break the bough (in flash, can deter users because it takes too long to load, for eg.)
And the taser idea, while mixed results from the community, creates a substantial amount of efficiency: Time saved by creating a single dual purpose entity instead of two entities that do two seperate but similar things (quite redundant). (Personally, I'd say create something that's primary function is to shoot pistol rounds, and secondary is to make a melee attack with either an attached blade on said gun, or just pull one out of your combat belt like in Call of Duty games; Alternatively, if it looks like the stun gun from District 9, that's uber WIN too) Time saved means money less spent. Something that can be done in 3 hours as opposed to 100 hours.
I recently sat in on an interview with a guy from EA that is apart of the development team of the Madden America football games and he wished that he was apart of a smaller dev crew because it is far more efficient. Why? you might ask.
Well, first of all there is a hierarchy. The creator, the guy with the vision, or the art director(s), has to inspect and approve of each individual asset created by a team of up to 60 art asset creators and then they'll send it to the up to 60 developers, who then have to get the functionality approved, and so on and so forth. While a smaller group you have to spend less time checking less assets, or the ability to cut redundant assets off sooner before too much time is spent on it because the artist isn't in a team of 40 people from an office on the other side of the world (you might suggest they have email, but they also need to get approval from very busy art directors before any changes are made).
My perspective is rare, but I think it's far more correct than some of the worry rants/forum posts written here. I don't think UWE need to even reply to this forum because of the closed minded fear that is currently evident. Sure, you have a right to know where and how your money is being spent, but you are a pre-ordering customer, not an investor (with potentially thousands invested) and thus aren't getting a return per se. (You could argue that the overall experience could be damaged but is that more, again, from fear/buyer's remorse or is it from genuine concern for a much beloved development team?)
<!--quoteo(post=1720103:date=Jul 30 2009, 07:45 AM:name=resresres)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (resresres @ Jul 30 2009, 07:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"There is a difference between being lazy, and being efficient and economical." Being an art asset creator myself, this is the only forum post that is correct.
My perspective is rare, but I think it's far more correct than some of the worry rants/forum posts written here. I don't think UWE need to even reply to this forum because of the closed minded fear that is currently evident. Sure, you have a right to know where and how your money is being spent, but you are a pre-ordering customer, not an investor (with potentially thousands invested) and thus aren't getting a return per se. (You could argue that the overall experience could be damaged but is that more, again, from fear/buyer's remorse or is it from genuine concern for a much beloved development team?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man, this is really great anecdotal information. I almost wish you hadn't added it to such a lame topic though.
Resresres, you have my respect for putting at least once decent comment into this thread filled with fail.
Thank you good sir.
And to everyone else... shame on you for being ######bags. Put some faith into the ###### development team will you? We haven't even seen an alpha build yet and you are already screaming at them telling them they are doing everything the wrong way. Go do better yourself and get back to me.
This is also the exact reason most game companies never give a look into the development process, because this type of thing happens.
resresres put things quite nicely which shortens what I have to say. However, I believe I can bring a certain other perspective to this conversation being that I know the devs personally.
<b><i>They're working their asses off.</i></b>
If I had been drinking something at the time I saw this thread's title I would have spewed it all over my monitor. Charlie? Max? Lazy??? You have got to be kidding. You don't know how many times I've called up Charlie to play board games on a Saturday to have him tell me he can't cause he has to go in to the office to finish something. Trust me, they are well aware that all your preorders, the money they're currently living off of, was given to them based on little more than faith and they are stressing exponentially to make this game and make it good. I doubt threads like this help.
resresres put things quite nicely which shortens what I have to say. However, I believe I can bring a certain other perspective to this conversation being that I know the devs personally.
<b><i>They're working their asses off.</i></b>
If I had been drinking something at the time I saw this thread's title I would have spewed it all over my monitor. Charlie? Max? Lazy??? You have got to be kidding. You don't know how many times I've called up Charlie to play board games on a Saturday to have him tell me he can't cause he has to go in to the office to finish something. Trust me, they are well aware that all your preorders, the money they're currently living off of, was given to them based on little more than faith and they are stressing exponentially to make this game and make it good. I doubt threads like this help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hopefully they treat threads like this with all the respect they deserve.. that is.. none.
And for every whiner who feels that their entitled to have the product now and why can't they see more, there's probably somebody like me who put in his pre-order with full faith and patience. It'll get done when it gets done, and they'll let me know. So far as I'm concerned, NS2 is free.. I just happened to finally pay for NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1720180:date=Jul 31 2009, 01:04 PM:name=Tesseract)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tesseract @ Jul 31 2009, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although it was dwarfed by resresres's post my post RIGHT BEFORE HIS was all "trust the devs, yo'" so shush you I won't be tarred with the same brush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ditto on that one
From what i can read here, while trying not to run right off topic is that a fair few people sound like they want NS2 to be NS1 + graphics and physics.
I very much agree with the 1/3 new, 1/3 old and 1/3 updated. I am excited about the NEW things that will be brought to the table in NS2 as well as the things that have been improved and built upon. NS has no single player, so to me it would seem a fair bit harder to introduce new things into the game. If that means taking out heavy armour to mix things up a little, or maybe even changing an alien completely, sure. I trust that they will replace what they take out with something that will be equally game changing.
Seriously. Let's just take a step back, let them do their thing and trust that they won't ruin it. Did NS1 suck? Have a little faith in their skills! In the end, they want the game to sell. They would surely know by now what the community wants/hope for.
Don't slap them across the face for being nice enough to let us know how things are going. It's a privilege, not a right.
...and wtf. Have you not seen some of the past updates they have posted? It's fantastic.
<!--quoteo(post=1720217:date=Jul 31 2009, 09:51 AM:name=M00_cow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (M00_cow @ Jul 31 2009, 09:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720217"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what i can read here, while trying not to run right off topic is that a fair few people sound like they want NS2 to be NS1 + graphics and physics.
I very much agree with the 1/3 new, 1/3 old and 1/3 updated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think everyone wants this, but that 1/3 old is different per player... IMHO they should keep a lot of the stuff that is NS1 and from that apply the formula "1/3 new, 1/3 old and 1/3 updated" to those base technologies. This would allow for upgraded heavies and jetpacks and weaponry... and then something new. But no one wants some freeking taser, or any other un-manly-marine weapon. Why not say... we decided to replace the pistol and knife with something that combines the two... a monster revolver that you can load with grenades or monster shotgun shells or flamethrower moltov-bullets. The alien team can have the weird bio-generated electricity attacks... marines want explosive to come as a result of every trigger press.
<!--quoteo(post=1720219:date=Jul 31 2009, 04:07 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jul 31 2009, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think everyone wants this, but that 1/3 old is different per player... IMHO they should keep a lot of the stuff that is NS1 and from that apply the formula "1/3 new, 1/3 old and 1/3 updated" to those base technologies. This would allow for upgraded heavies and jetpacks and weaponry... and then something new. But no one wants some freeking taser, or any other un-manly-marine weapon. Why not say... we decided to replace the pistol and knife with something that combines the two... a monster revolver that you can load with grenades or monster shotgun shells or flamethrower moltov-bullets. The alien team can have the weird bio-generated electricity attacks... marines want explosive to come as a result of every trigger press.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one? You mean no one that matters right? ie you don't want some freeking taser. Guess what there are more people then you on the internet!
Sigh damn troll somehow always manages to goad me.
<!--quoteo(post=1720219:date=Jul 31 2009, 03:07 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jul 31 2009, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But no one wants some freeking taser, or any other un-manly-marine weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
I have looked at FocusedWolf's numerous posts throughout the forums and his suggestions and I seriously hope he is not being totally serious in all of them. Or, I hope he's not yet past twenty.
<!--quoteo(post=1720265:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:06 PM:name=BadMouth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BadMouth @ Jul 31 2009, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have looked at FocusedWolf's numerous posts throughout the forums and his suggestions and I seriously hope he is not being totally serious in all of them. Or, I hope he's not yet past twenty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just ignore all his posts. Too bad the forums don't have a "Hide Posts from Poster X" feature.
Comments
Everyone seems to be assuming that all that money they have raked in via preorders goes directly to development costs. Most likely a significant portion of that goes to their investors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An educated guess would be at most 40% and at the very least 15% of UWE is built upon investment drawn revenue.
And i think they want to do it as cheaply as possible to make the core of the game and then wait for community to do the rest.
Let's see what they can do with NS2.
There is a risk that it will flatten the game and make it just another sci-fi shooter we have LOTS of nowadays. Getting rid of all not-100%-necessary stuff, leaving only bare to the bone equipment, minimalistic weapons (2 in 1), minimalistic map design and map number (as they say: "to avoid confusion by new players") and simplest possible game mechanics. You can't just place a sticker that says "easy to learn, hard to master" to everything. It doesn't work like that.
What made NS1 so great was REALISM and not beforehand established gameplay rules, like hey seem to do now - precalculate and balance everything out, so there's nothing left to explore.
Now, how is NS2 going to differentiate itself on the market when it's released? No offence, but from the visual standpoint it looks like any other dark and "worn-out industrial like theme" sci-fi game and from what the creators say it will be even more simplified than I expected in terms of content and gameplay.
Do not confuse this with a minimalistic approach in art music etc. that is a chosen artistic style, completely different to what Charlie was referring to.
I suspect their approach is minimalist on all of the above, including design (to a certain extent). That's not inherently a bad thing, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing either, depends how they go about it.
Given that these are the guys who gave us NS1, and how clearly passionate they are about NS2; I'm prepared to have a little faith.
GTA IV is still unplayable on PC. As the developers sayd, it is build for future computers not for todays. They told me this after I had installed the game :) Great work from rockstar games [/sarcasm]. As the result I will never again buy rockstar game.
I don't think UWE is lazy. They just don't have time or resources.
Plus, my computer isn't highest-end. It's very good (more than should be required for a game as "old" as GTA4) but nowhere near futuristic.
Whoa, whoa, Rockstar Toronto did the PC version, not Rockstar North (who made all the good GTAs). Don't blame the original company for another company's bad work. If I felt Opposing Force sucked (which it didn't) I would not subsequently shun everything ever made by Valve. You're blaming the wrong people, here.
Actually kind of like the op, who is blaming UWE for not pandering to his little knowledge + design whims. If NS1 was as brilliant as you thought it was, don't you think some creative licence is allowed by <b><i>the man who invented it</i></b>. You claim such thinking has ruined games, but then think about Team Fortress 2, a game made by the same people as Team Fortress and Classic. It is a similar but nevertheless very different 'sequel' that gave out very little details during the course of its development. NS2 are giving out more information than the TF2 team, and you should trust that Charlie knows what he's doing. Have a little faith in the team that you claim to like so much.
Being an art asset creator myself, this is the only forum post that is correct.
I develop art assets for games too and coming from that POV, and working in a smaller, tighter Development team
we certainly aren't being LAZY when we decide to drop features or assets.
If a feature or asset is dropped, it's likely because it drastically changes the current dynamic of the game.
Like suddenly seeing a gun that shoots sharks with lazers on their heads in a game based around modern realistic-combat in the Middle east, for example.
Or, it is too "heavy" - the asset/feature itself has too much weight.
Too much weight:
- It severly overpowers a user or team.
- Implementing it will break dynamics, gameplay or balance.
- Implementing it will increase the final products download by an unreasonable amount (particularly true for flash games, or other online games), and that can actually break the bough (in flash, can deter users because it takes too long to load, for eg.)
And the taser idea, while mixed results from the community, creates a substantial amount of efficiency:
Time saved by creating a single dual purpose entity instead of two entities that do two seperate but similar things (quite redundant).
(Personally, I'd say create something that's primary function is to shoot pistol rounds, and secondary is to make a melee attack with either an attached blade on said gun, or just pull one out of your combat belt like in Call of Duty games; Alternatively, if it looks like the stun gun from District 9, that's uber WIN too)
Time saved means money less spent. Something that can be done in 3 hours as opposed to 100 hours.
I recently sat in on an interview with a guy from EA that is apart of the development team of the Madden America football games and he wished that he was apart of a smaller dev crew because it is far more efficient.
Why? you might ask.
Well, first of all there is a hierarchy. The creator, the guy with the vision, or the art director(s), has to inspect and approve of each individual asset created by a team of up to 60 art asset creators and then they'll send it to the up to 60 developers, who then have to get the functionality approved, and so on and so forth.
While a smaller group you have to spend less time checking less assets, or the ability to cut redundant assets off sooner before too much time is spent on it because the artist isn't in a team of 40 people from an office on the other side of the world (you might suggest they have email, but they also need to get approval from very busy art directors before any changes are made).
My perspective is rare, but I think it's far more correct than some of the worry rants/forum posts written here. I don't think UWE need to even reply to this forum because of the closed minded fear that is currently evident. Sure, you have a right to know where and how your money is being spent, but you are a pre-ordering customer, not an investor (with potentially thousands invested) and thus aren't getting a return per se. (You could argue that the overall experience could be damaged but is that more, again, from fear/buyer's remorse or is it from genuine concern for a much beloved development team?)
Being an art asset creator myself, this is the only forum post that is correct.
My perspective is rare, but I think it's far more correct than some of the worry rants/forum posts written here. I don't think UWE need to even reply to this forum because of the closed minded fear that is currently evident. Sure, you have a right to know where and how your money is being spent, but you are a pre-ordering customer, not an investor (with potentially thousands invested) and thus aren't getting a return per se. (You could argue that the overall experience could be damaged but is that more, again, from fear/buyer's remorse or is it from genuine concern for a much beloved development team?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man, this is really great anecdotal information. I almost wish you hadn't added it to such a lame topic though.
Thank you good sir.
And to everyone else... shame on you for being ######bags. Put some faith into the ###### development team will you? We haven't even seen an alpha build yet and you are already screaming at them telling them they are doing everything the wrong way. Go do better yourself and get back to me.
This is also the exact reason most game companies never give a look into the development process, because this type of thing happens.
resresres put things quite nicely which shortens what I have to say. However, I believe I can bring a certain other perspective to this conversation being that I know the devs personally.
<b><i>They're working their asses off.</i></b>
If I had been drinking something at the time I saw this thread's title I would have spewed it all over my monitor. Charlie? Max? Lazy??? You have got to be kidding. You don't know how many times I've called up Charlie to play board games on a Saturday to have him tell me he can't cause he has to go in to the office to finish something. Trust me, they are well aware that all your preorders, the money they're currently living off of, was given to them based on little more than faith and they are stressing exponentially to make this game and make it good. I doubt threads like this help.
resresres put things quite nicely which shortens what I have to say. However, I believe I can bring a certain other perspective to this conversation being that I know the devs personally.
<b><i>They're working their asses off.</i></b>
If I had been drinking something at the time I saw this thread's title I would have spewed it all over my monitor. Charlie? Max? Lazy??? You have got to be kidding. You don't know how many times I've called up Charlie to play board games on a Saturday to have him tell me he can't cause he has to go in to the office to finish something. Trust me, they are well aware that all your preorders, the money they're currently living off of, was given to them based on little more than faith and they are stressing exponentially to make this game and make it good. I doubt threads like this help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hopefully they treat threads like this with all the respect they deserve.. that is.. none.
And for every whiner who feels that their entitled to have the product now and why can't they see more, there's probably somebody like me who put in his pre-order with full faith and patience. It'll get done when it gets done, and they'll let me know. So far as I'm concerned, NS2 is free.. I just happened to finally pay for NS1.
ditto on that one
I very much agree with the 1/3 new, 1/3 old and 1/3 updated. I am excited about the NEW things that will be brought to the table in NS2 as well as the things that have been improved and built upon. NS has no single player, so to me it would seem a fair bit harder to introduce new things into the game. If that means taking out heavy armour to mix things up a little, or maybe even changing an alien completely, sure. I trust that they will replace what they take out with something that will be equally game changing.
Seriously. Let's just take a step back, let them do their thing and trust that they won't ruin it. Did NS1 suck? Have a little faith in their skills! In the end, they want the game to sell. They would surely know by now what the community wants/hope for.
Don't slap them across the face for being nice enough to let us know how things are going. It's a privilege, not a right.
...and wtf. Have you not seen some of the past updates they have posted? It's fantastic.
I very much agree with the 1/3 new, 1/3 old and 1/3 updated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think everyone wants this, but that 1/3 old is different per player... IMHO they should keep a lot of the stuff that is NS1 and from that apply the formula "1/3 new, 1/3 old and 1/3 updated" to those base technologies. This would allow for upgraded heavies and jetpacks and weaponry... and then something new. But no one wants some freeking taser, or any other un-manly-marine weapon. Why not say... we decided to replace the pistol and knife with something that combines the two... a monster revolver that you can load with grenades or monster shotgun shells or flamethrower moltov-bullets. The alien team can have the weird bio-generated electricity attacks... marines want explosive to come as a result of every trigger press.
No one? You mean no one that matters right? ie you don't want some freeking taser. Guess what there are more people then you on the internet!
Sigh damn troll somehow always manages to goad me.
Lol, touche. I didn't pick it. ;)
trollin'
I just ignore all his posts. Too bad the forums don't have a "Hide Posts from Poster X" feature.