remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
The two ideas I liked:
1. Dragging Marines for Res This one would just so be atmosphericly creepy. I love it, and, like someone said, it could encourage more teamwork in skulks.
2. Licking Wounds This one just fits so well with the dog-like look of the skulk, and would give the skulk something to do if its stuck in a vent at low health rather than just being forced to suicide or be useless. It also adds a cute/vulnerable animation to the skulk which I would not mind seeing. Helps players empathize with their skulky teammates.
I'm voting for the dragging marine part. Sure it's a "knockdown" for the marine but if the taser idea is implemented then it could be used as a "###### gotta free myself" kinda move. Perhaps the taser concept could be used to electrify the armor of the marine for a few moments causing the skulks to loose grip and maybe disorientated for 2 seconds? Enough time for the marine to have their mates save them.
I like the grapple idea the best, but here's my take on it.
Since the Skulk is supposed to be the silent ninja ambush expert of the game what he needs is a good ambush attack. Combining that with the cool idea of a grapple attack I came up with this. The attack would be short ranged and location based. Basically to "grapple" a marine the Skulk would have to pounce on him from above. It would be like a spy backstab from TF2 in that it would only become available if the skulk had positioned himself correctly. The skulk would have to be above and slightly behind the marine to engage the grapple. It would cause the marine's screen to shake and he would start to loose health rapidly as the Skulk tears at his neck. The marine would have no defense from this attack, but his allies could easily shoot the skulk off.
This would encourage Skulks to actually consider their movement and location instead of wildly bum-rushing the marines. To keep things balanced, a skulk who attempted this attack would loose all adrenaline and if he fails the attack, would incur some minor penalty, making him easier to finish off. From the skulks point of view, when he had positioned himself properly his mouth would open much wider than usual signaling to the player that he was in position. After clicking the Skulk would clamp down on the marine's neck from behind and start chewing.
It seems like this would encourage more teamwork from both sides, as well as provide the Skulk with a much more viable ambush method. This attack would be much less useful against groups of marines unless the aliens coordinated very well and pounced simultaneously.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited August 2009
I really like the idea of a more ambush focused, teamwork based ability. Bite works great for moving along the map killing marines with other lifeforms like normal, but the 'grapple' is designed purely for the ambushing skulk. Having both roles emphasizes that the skulk is a light attack class, but also the ambushing master of the alien team. Whether the skulk could drag the marine as I suggested, or just grab onto them to hurt and slow them down (effect increasing with multiple skulks), would be incredibly cool. Whatever it is, it should encourage skulks to ambush together to be increasingly effective.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited August 2009
i've always figured that leap would just be normal jump for the skulk?
also the licking the wounds to regerate is a great idea - if a skulk escapes into a vent, it will heal and come out sooner than respawning - they will be able to keep the pressure on the marine team and keep the pace of the game up
Was actually an idea I thought of in another forum post a while back. Huge convenience and opens up tactical possibilities. Unless they keep the +movement command/ability/function then an alternate alt fire (for leap AND bite) is just as viable.
And the licking wounds Idea sounds ok; The Heavy in TF2 has a sandvich, which heals, but also immobilises. A skulk in this regen mode that is also completely vulnerable but doesn't have to run all the way to a gorge, hive or DC (defense chamber) opens up some strategy re: fights.
I like the grapple Idea, It has a lot of good and bad points but I think it would be fun.
As for parasite it could for prim-fire it could do 10dmg and lower the movement speed of the marine for 10sec by around 10/15% which would be helpfully when the marines have JP, For alt-fire it could remove 20 armor but cost 2/3 of energy for a single skulk that would be useless but with a group of 4-5 facing a HA its a big advantage. (i didn't put much thought in alt-fire)
I also has an idea for alt-fire xeno instead of exploding it imploded and sucks the marines closer together, so you could have one skulk jumps in and explode in a big group of marines knocking them all over the place then a second implodes(doing on dmg) and pulls them together then finally a third skulk explodes to finish the marines off.
A 'Grapple' is so incredibly stupid sounding to me. The idea that you will see marines running around with dogs hanging off their arms just seems way too comical to even be thought about.
To me the Skulk is a high damage, low health, highly efficient killing machine. Dragging, pinning, grabbing, all these idea, in my mind, go totally against the design philosophy of the Skulk. It should kill quickly, have the upper hand in close range through movement and ambushing, but be easily overwhelmed by team work and tactics. Forcibly taking two players out of the game for any period of time as a main feature in the game should not be entertained.
<!--quoteo(post=1721073:date=Aug 7 2009, 01:11 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Aug 7 2009, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest, just creating something for this alt-fire purpose would feel like you're forcing something into the skulk that shouldn't be. I agree with leap being the alt-fire for bite. Having to switch weapons to use leap is so half-life 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sup?
Heard of +movement?
I'm assuming +movement is still in the game (that is, a key for movementabilities for aliens, which the NS1 fades blink and the NS1 skulks leap are attached to) rather than, like a newbie, having to switch weapons. The default key for movement is R, the reload key. I have mine bound to the left sidebutton on my mouse. You should try it, it makes you not suck. Really nice stuff, actually.
I think having it as the secondary attack would be very, very bad unless this is also true for the fade. Basically I want my +movement key. Or if that's out make it a universal thing with "+movement" being secondary fire. Whatever you do, don't make it different between different lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=1721120:date=Aug 7 2009, 03:46 AM:name=Mr_Charisma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr_Charisma @ Aug 7 2009, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A 'Grapple' is so incredibly stupid sounding to me. The idea that you will see marines running around with dogs hanging off their arms just seems way too comical to even be thought about.
To me the Skulk is a high damage, low health, highly efficient killing machine. Dragging, pinning, grabbing, all these idea, in my mind, go totally against the design philosophy of the Skulk. It should kill quickly, have the upper hand in close range through movement and ambushing, but be easily overwhelmed by team work and tactics. Forcibly taking two players out of the game for any period of time as a main feature in the game should not be entertained.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, these are my sentiments exactly. I think a ranged attack, much like the parasite, is the best way to go. Perhaps have it be a DOT that does moar damage the maor skulks parasite the same marine? Initial damage from one parasite might be 1 dmg/sec/10sec but with 3 skulks you go 3 dmg/sec/10sec. Or maybe 1 skulks 3.5 dmg/sec/3 sec, etc. Or have it as it is now, make it the parasite, but just say the marines have engineered against them, meaning they "logically" no longer gives vision but the skulks still have them as a kind of legacy skill - which is still mighty useful just for the damage and annoyment.
Don't make a grapple attack anything like the L4D Smoker. Instead, make it slow down the rine and mess with his aim/mouselook. It wouldn't directly damage the marine in any way, but makes it difficult to shoot back and kill the skulk and free himself. Other marines around, the attack would be slightly less effective. This encourages teamwork/ambushing by making the other skulks finish off the grappled marine. One or two skulks momentarily hinder a couple marines out of a moving squad, creating just enough of an opening for the rest of the aliens to jump in and do some damage.
Possible downsides: Useless if skulk is alone. Possibly OP if skulk # > rine #? However the rines CAN still shoot back, so they should be able to free each other up if they can overcome the mouselook hindrance. Too similar to Web? (assuming that's still in the game)
Balance thoughts: Would require line-of-sight to be maintained, so no blocking with large aliens. Can't have the skulks all grapple, then have an onos Bone Shield in front of them. Assume the tongue/grapple would be broken if something that big steps on it. This also means the marine always has some chance to shoot back and kill the skulk. (however, a fade or smaller life form just passing in front of the skulk should not break the grapple Aside from vent shots, would require the skulks to be very vulnerable while grappling the marine. The tongue/grapple itself would give position away.
<!--quoteo(post=1721124:date=Aug 6 2009, 10:01 PM:name=Dead-Inside)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dead-Inside @ Aug 6 2009, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, these are my sentiments exactly. I think a ranged attack, much like the parasite, is the best way to go. Perhaps have it be a DOT that does moar damage the maor skulks parasite the same marine? Initial damage from one parasite might be 1 dmg/sec/10sec but with 3 skulks you go 3 dmg/sec/10sec. Or maybe 1 skulks 3.5 dmg/sec/3 sec, etc. Or have it as it is now, make it the parasite, but just say the marines have engineered against them, meaning they "logically" no longer gives vision but the skulks still have them as a kind of legacy skill - which is still mighty useful just for the damage and annoyment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would not be terrible. Give up the wallhax parasite in exchange for a ranged attack that's more focused around small damage. Some lizards squirt blood out of their eyes - could skulks shoot acid or something? Maybe small pieces of hardened carapace/bone/spines?
I haven't read any of the posts but how about the alt fire, just be a sorta weaker bite, doing probobly, 35ish dmg amount. but he also injects them with a type of poison or bacteria, which does a DoT? Could also just be a slowing effect or makes their vision a little impaired... just an idea ;] Also would require more energy and a slower RoF.
As far as alt-fires go, I'd be fine with leap being the alt-fire for EVERY skulk ability. Leap is integral to your movement as a skulk. It needs to always be instantly accessible.
Great! I really like the look of the new skulk. And i love the concept of the vent too :)
<!--quoteo(post=1721120:date=Aug 7 2009, 03:46 AM:name=Mr_Charisma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr_Charisma @ Aug 7 2009, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A 'Grapple' is so incredibly stupid sounding to me. The idea that you will see marines running around with dogs hanging off their arms just seems way too comical to even be thought about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe it's better if the dogs are hanging off the marine's legs (and butt) ;) IF there is going to be a "grapple" attack i think it should be something like this: A skulk bites into the marines legs (like a dog into your pants :P) and doesn't let go. The marine can still shoot/use buttons/buildings/whatever but he can't move (walk/jump/use jetpack) and has to shoot the skulk or shove him away first. This wouldn't incapacitate the marine completely and the skulk would be even more vulnerable while 'grappled' so it would be a stupid idea to use this attack alone. However in a team of 2 skulks or a skulk + another alien it would be very effective and it's useful in chaotic situations, too. An attack which completely incapacitates a marine wouldn't fit into ns (and it would look like a l4d ripoff too :/ )
Anoter idea for the skulk: a combo-attack. Say, leap and bite are on different slots, leap does nearly no damage itself (like in the current ns1-version) and bite does medium damage (like in the current version). A combo-attack would be: leaping on a marine and while in the air quickly swiching to slot1 and using this attack just in the right moment, before you touch the marine. This would do a lot of damage and knock marine the back incapacitating him for half a second. Instead of biting the animation for this attack should involve the skulk's limbs.
ps: my english isn't that good and i'm not sure what <u>exactly</u> is meant by grapple but i interpret it as "lock jaws" :)
just more of my thoughts on a few of the suggestions.
Grapple: I did kind-of like the idea of grappling, but have since changed my mind. I think that it will just annoy marine players to hell. I can see if there was such an ability, it would be used over and over and would just become quite frustrating. This is also why I don't like the idea of dragging live marines. however, I still like the idea of dragging the marines dead bodies to resource towers for res.
alt Healing: On the licking heal ability, if this causes players to be able to survive for longer periods whilst putting them out of action whilst healing. Then this ability is probably a good thing. but it could possibly be too overpowering for the skulk to have as an alt ability early on in the game. Especially if they have already been given more health. It may cause people to be less thought out/careful in their attacks. then panicky retreat to heal. and could change the flow of gameplay for the worse.
Also I have always though of it as the job of Gorges to heal players. and giving this ability to skulks would mean less reliability on teamwork. don't The Kaharra have enough healing abilities as it is without this one included.
Alt attacks: I'm not keen on the tongue whip idea. To me this seems completely out of character for the skulk. (all I keep thinking of is Jar Jar Binks... and thats not a good thing) In regards with the spin/kick attack, whilst it is an decent suggestion, I really can't see it fitting in game. (how would it work?) I've always seen the skulk as a kind of dog with very frontal attacks. and a kicking skulk just seem out of character.
I'm for having the alt fire the leap ability.... unless of course you have already got an idea for a leap alt ability already. in that case, may I suggest simply having a "charged bite" holding down the alt fire for a few seconds to charge up a more powerful chomp.
LOVE IT as allways great work guys and about the skulk abilities how about to have MB1 be the bite attack and MB2 be the leap it would be much easer to just do combos instead of switching by numbers all the time as we did in NS1. and u can still have the Parasite ability only with temporarily effect that goes of the marin body/structure after a certain time or by welder ( combination maybe? ) I love the concept of the alien commander being able to scout but remember that he allready has a lot of job to do, so i think temporarily parasite is a perfekt solution for the skulk. what do you guys think?
getting rid of parasite is nice but i'd still like a ranged attack for a skulk, maybe something like shooting acid out of his mouth (granted it doesn't have to do damage and it could also be set up to only do damage to the armor) but this would be a nice substitute probably make it a mid range attack to where the marine knows where it's coming from and is more easily provoked
I think a temporary parasite would be great for squad actions in the early game. The blood trail sounds like a good way to implement it. Maybe it could be a long recharge time as well, to regrow the bleeder dart.
I definitely think all the abilities and movements should be assignable directly without menus. I'm fairly certain this is true.
As for the 'grapple' possibility, I think something similar to the spy backstab of TF2 would great. It would not be instant death like the spy; it would be a snare attack to assist in taking down a lone marine with 2 or more skulks. The backbite would decrease the players movement and turning speed/jumping and be disorienting while still maintaining control of view and aiming (albeit slower mouse speed and less precise). This allows a skulk to disable a rambo threat without actually defeating him if the skulk can anticipate or out maneuver. The grenade self tactic could be used to free up yourself in a pinch. Other marines could easily shoot the skulk to death or melee off the skulk.
This works to make rambos very risky business, as marine ninjas should be, while not making the grapple attack be instant death for a marine with friends around the corner. It gives skulks a chancy high skill option to remain effective in ambushing and teamplay.
The new skulk looks awesome and the vents are going to be fantastic!
Personally, the whole idea of the Kharaa having distinct "weapons" to switch between always seemed kind of off. They don't *have* weapons; they *are* weapons, and it seems a little silly to have to switch between "bite" and "leap," or what have you. I think it'd be nice if, instead of having several weapons to switch between (each with a Fire and an Alt-Fire), each life form had just 3 actual attacks, all bindable to their own key/button to fire off-hand. E.g. If I want to bite, I just press Mouse 1 and the skulk bites. If I press Mouse 2, it leaps. It doesn't switch to leap, and then make me press fire again.
Similarly, if you do decide to use any of the "grab" options being suggested here, perhaps that shouldn't be its own weapon, but rather a function of Bite. Maybe either bite and hold the key, or hold the key to "charge up" the bite into a grab.
Hmm... that "charge up" line of thought just gave me an idea: It might be interesting if a Skulk could charge up its bite to increase the damage. This would let it easily take out a lone Marine if it got the drop on him, but make it much harder to take out a squad alone, since then it'd just be spamming weaker attacks.
Anyway, as for suggestions on the attacks themselves: Babblers! *cough* But seriously, Xenocide really seems like a good fit for the Skulk. Parasite, too, but if you don't want that, maybe the Lerk's old Spike shooter? Actually, now that I've mentioned it, a modification of Babblers might work pretty well as a provoker. Maybe give the Skulk a smaller, weaker minion that it can spawn (maybe something kinda face-huggery/spidery), that sits still for a couple seconds, and then skitters straight forward along the floor/wall/ceiling. If it gets near a Marine, it steers toward it and tries to bite/explode near him for weak damage. Lightly armored, but usable for harassment, or, for clever Skulks, a diversion for an ambush (thanks to the slight delay). If you want to give it a defensive use, maybe even make it like a Spider Mine with a pretty wide search radius instead of having it skitter forward automatically.
Edit: re: Parasite: Really, I don't see what's wrong with having the Skulks do a lot of the scouting. The commanders of real armies don't do the scouting themselves. The cannon fodder does the scouting, and the commander takes the info they provide and uses it to coordinate the army. I mean, that's obviously not the only way to do it, but it makes sense. Commanders usually have a lot to worry about already. At the very least it might be nice to spread the intel-gathering duties around a bit.
Edit 2: Also, the Skulk looks fantastic. Nice work.
<!--quoteo(post=1721144:date=Aug 7 2009, 05:48 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 7 2009, 05:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a temporary parasite would be great for squad actions in the early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to agree here, the most annying thing about parasite, and most usefull is it alows the aliens to track and easily ambush you. I know the alien commander is the scout and co-ordinator for the aliens. But haveing the parasite alows the skulk to be more effective as he can track, hide and ambush more easily. A temporary parasite that lasted a short amount of time would be better than removeing it totaly. Even if only the skulk who used it could see it... hmm, that might actualy be a good idea as it means its not a scouting ability but a hunter/tracker ability
As several people have already mentioned, the +movement command was already implemented in NS almost three years ago and was designed precisely for leap (as well as blink and charge). Considering it was in one of the last patches for the game, one would assume it's still fresh in their minds meaning we should discuss other non-leap related solutions for use of the alt-fire.
<!--QuoteBegin-"Detailed Skulk "Reveal" Post+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Detailed Skulk "Reveal" Post)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We hope you enjoyed this look at the Skulk and can't wait to show you the Gorge, Lerk and Fade (in that order)!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And the Gorge had better be cute and sexy!
What? Parasite is used by skulks for better ambush effectiveness? I always thought you were supposed to get parasited so as to bait more skulks towards you and rack up more killzzzz. weird...
grepdashvLord of the BugsJoin Date: 2002-11-13Member: 8487Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
Bite needs no alt-fire, nor should it have one. In fact, none of the alien abilities should probably have an alt-fire, and very few of the marine weapons should. For the aliens, the second mouse button should be used for movement abilities for the classes that have them, healspray for gorge, and spores for the lerk (unless something like diving or perching is implemented). For the marines, alt-fire would make sense for things like rolling a grenade instead of throwing it, toggling a mine between proximity and trip mode, or using a welder in some novel way.
How about 2nd attack is a grapple like mentioned before...
BUT it has some postional aspect to it...
Say for instance you grapple a marine from the front the marine will be able to damage the alien with his tazer or gun...But if the grapple is from behind he has no way to do damage to the skulk unless a team-mate shoots it...
That should add an extra dimension of tactic for skulks and hopefully keep the attack in balance.
These buggers can run on walls upside-down but can't latch onto a soft fleshy human :D
After every update I feel more and more disappointed. Hate to be that guy but I'm sorry guys, you are doing it wrong. Those flipping changes in the alien classes are weird... What are you thinking, seriously, who is making this to you Frayra? Did you ever consider just keeping the original gameplay with the new engine? It would be great. Seriously, you are trashing the best part of your own master piece. Please, please give us just the NS1 with the new engine, I'll pay for it whatever you want. NS2 will be in the trash can in the 10 minutes mark after the release of the beta. You are losing the compass, get back to the roots of your own idea and give us what we played the last 6 years every night and never got old.
Comments
1. Dragging Marines for Res
This one would just so be atmosphericly creepy. I love it, and, like someone said, it could encourage more teamwork in skulks.
2. Licking Wounds
This one just fits so well with the dog-like look of the skulk, and would give the skulk something to do if its stuck in a vent at low health rather than just being forced to suicide or be useless. It also adds a cute/vulnerable animation to the skulk which I would not mind seeing. Helps players empathize with their skulky teammates.
Since the Skulk is supposed to be the silent ninja ambush expert of the game what he needs is a good ambush attack. Combining that with the cool idea of a grapple attack I came up with this. The attack would be short ranged and location based. Basically to "grapple" a marine the Skulk would have to pounce on him from above. It would be like a spy backstab from TF2 in that it would only become available if the skulk had positioned himself correctly. The skulk would have to be above and slightly behind the marine to engage the grapple. It would cause the marine's screen to shake and he would start to loose health rapidly as the Skulk tears at his neck. The marine would have no defense from this attack, but his allies could easily shoot the skulk off.
This would encourage Skulks to actually consider their movement and location instead of wildly bum-rushing the marines. To keep things balanced, a skulk who attempted this attack would loose all adrenaline and if he fails the attack, would incur some minor penalty, making him easier to finish off. From the skulks point of view, when he had positioned himself properly his mouth would open much wider than usual signaling to the player that he was in position. After clicking the Skulk would clamp down on the marine's neck from behind and start chewing.
It seems like this would encourage more teamwork from both sides, as well as provide the Skulk with a much more viable ambush method. This attack would be much less useful against groups of marines unless the aliens coordinated very well and pounced simultaneously.
also the licking the wounds to regerate is a great idea - if a skulk escapes into a vent, it will heal and come out sooner than respawning - they will be able to keep the pressure on the marine team and keep the pace of the game up
Was actually an idea I thought of in another forum post a while back. Huge convenience and opens up tactical possibilities.
Unless they keep the +movement command/ability/function then an alternate alt fire (for leap AND bite) is just as viable.
And the licking wounds Idea sounds ok;
The Heavy in TF2 has a sandvich, which heals, but also immobilises. A skulk in this regen mode that is also completely vulnerable but doesn't have to run all the way to a gorge, hive or DC (defense chamber)
opens up some strategy re: fights.
As for parasite it could for prim-fire it could do 10dmg and lower the movement speed of the marine for 10sec by around 10/15% which would be helpfully when the marines have JP, For alt-fire it could remove 20 armor but cost 2/3 of energy for a single skulk that would be useless but with a group of 4-5 facing a HA its a big advantage. (i didn't put much thought in alt-fire)
I also has an idea for alt-fire xeno instead of exploding it imploded and sucks the marines closer together, so you could have one skulk jumps in and explode in a big group of marines knocking them all over the place then a second implodes(doing on dmg) and pulls them together then finally a third skulk explodes to finish the marines off.
To me the Skulk is a high damage, low health, highly efficient killing machine. Dragging, pinning, grabbing, all these idea, in my mind, go totally against the design philosophy of the Skulk. It should kill quickly, have the upper hand in close range through movement and ambushing, but be easily overwhelmed by team work and tactics. Forcibly taking two players out of the game for any period of time as a main feature in the game should not be entertained.
Sup?
Heard of +movement?
I'm assuming +movement is still in the game (that is, a key for movementabilities for aliens, which the NS1 fades blink and the NS1 skulks leap are attached to) rather than, like a newbie, having to switch weapons. The default key for movement is R, the reload key. I have mine bound to the left sidebutton on my mouse. You should try it, it makes you not suck. Really nice stuff, actually.
I think having it as the secondary attack would be very, very bad unless this is also true for the fade. Basically I want my +movement key. Or if that's out make it a universal thing with "+movement" being secondary fire. Whatever you do, don't make it different between different lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=1721120:date=Aug 7 2009, 03:46 AM:name=Mr_Charisma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr_Charisma @ Aug 7 2009, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A 'Grapple' is so incredibly stupid sounding to me. The idea that you will see marines running around with dogs hanging off their arms just seems way too comical to even be thought about.
To me the Skulk is a high damage, low health, highly efficient killing machine. Dragging, pinning, grabbing, all these idea, in my mind, go totally against the design philosophy of the Skulk. It should kill quickly, have the upper hand in close range through movement and ambushing, but be easily overwhelmed by team work and tactics. Forcibly taking two players out of the game for any period of time as a main feature in the game should not be entertained.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, these are my sentiments exactly. I think a ranged attack, much like the parasite, is the best way to go. Perhaps have it be a DOT that does moar damage the maor skulks parasite the same marine? Initial damage from one parasite might be 1 dmg/sec/10sec but with 3 skulks you go 3 dmg/sec/10sec. Or maybe 1 skulks 3.5 dmg/sec/3 sec, etc. Or have it as it is now, make it the parasite, but just say the marines have engineered against them, meaning they "logically" no longer gives vision but the skulks still have them as a kind of legacy skill - which is still mighty useful just for the damage and annoyment.
Don't make a grapple attack anything like the L4D Smoker. Instead, make it slow down the rine and mess with his aim/mouselook. It wouldn't directly damage the marine in any way, but makes it difficult to shoot back and kill the skulk and free himself. Other marines around, the attack would be slightly less effective.
This encourages teamwork/ambushing by making the other skulks finish off the grappled marine. One or two skulks momentarily hinder a couple marines out of a moving squad, creating just enough of an opening for the rest of the aliens to jump in and do some damage.
Possible downsides:
Useless if skulk is alone.
Possibly OP if skulk # > rine #? However the rines CAN still shoot back, so they should be able to free each other up if they can overcome the mouselook hindrance.
Too similar to Web? (assuming that's still in the game)
Balance thoughts:
Would require line-of-sight to be maintained, so no blocking with large aliens. Can't have the skulks all grapple, then have an onos Bone Shield in front of them. Assume the tongue/grapple would be broken if something that big steps on it. This also means the marine always has some chance to shoot back and kill the skulk. (however, a fade or smaller life form just passing in front of the skulk should not break the grapple
Aside from vent shots, would require the skulks to be very vulnerable while grappling the marine. The tongue/grapple itself would give position away.
<!--quoteo(post=1721124:date=Aug 6 2009, 10:01 PM:name=Dead-Inside)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dead-Inside @ Aug 6 2009, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, these are my sentiments exactly. I think a ranged attack, much like the parasite, is the best way to go. Perhaps have it be a DOT that does moar damage the maor skulks parasite the same marine? Initial damage from one parasite might be 1 dmg/sec/10sec but with 3 skulks you go 3 dmg/sec/10sec. Or maybe 1 skulks 3.5 dmg/sec/3 sec, etc. Or have it as it is now, make it the parasite, but just say the marines have engineered against them, meaning they "logically" no longer gives vision but the skulks still have them as a kind of legacy skill - which is still mighty useful just for the damage and annoyment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would not be terrible. Give up the wallhax parasite in exchange for a ranged attack that's more focused around small damage. Some lizards squirt blood out of their eyes - could skulks shoot acid or something? Maybe small pieces of hardened carapace/bone/spines?
<!--quoteo(post=1721120:date=Aug 7 2009, 03:46 AM:name=Mr_Charisma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr_Charisma @ Aug 7 2009, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A 'Grapple' is so incredibly stupid sounding to me. The idea that you will see marines running around with dogs hanging off their arms just seems way too comical to even be thought about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe it's better if the dogs are hanging off the marine's legs (and butt) ;)
IF there is going to be a "grapple" attack i think it should be something like this: A skulk bites into the marines legs (like a dog into your pants :P) and doesn't let go. The marine can still shoot/use buttons/buildings/whatever but he can't move (walk/jump/use jetpack) and has to shoot the skulk or shove him away first. This wouldn't incapacitate the marine completely and the skulk would be even more vulnerable while 'grappled' so it would be a stupid idea to use this attack alone. However in a team of 2 skulks or a skulk + another alien it would be very effective and it's useful in chaotic situations, too.
An attack which completely incapacitates a marine wouldn't fit into ns (and it would look like a l4d ripoff too :/ )
Anoter idea for the skulk: a combo-attack.
Say, leap and bite are on different slots, leap does nearly no damage itself (like in the current ns1-version) and bite does medium damage (like in the current version). A combo-attack would be: leaping on a marine and while in the air quickly swiching to slot1 and using this attack just in the right moment, before you touch the marine. This would do a lot of damage and knock marine the back incapacitating him for half a second. Instead of biting the animation for this attack should involve the skulk's limbs.
ps: my english isn't that good and i'm not sure what <u>exactly</u> is meant by grapple but i interpret it as "lock jaws" :)
The Skulk is looking good the Onos is lloking good.
and you taunt us with this alt-fire :-)
I gotta say after reading all the ideas Leap sounds like the best idea.
In fact I picture right-click being lunge like for all the aliens.
It is the close the gap button.
All Aliens are melee in some form.
It would certainly help new users
But I also liked the ideas of grapple
But more as an unlockable.
Grapple:
I did kind-of like the idea of grappling, but have since changed my mind. I think that it will just annoy marine players to hell. I can see if there was such an ability, it would be used over and over and would just become quite frustrating.
This is also why I don't like the idea of dragging live marines.
however, I still like the idea of dragging the marines dead bodies to resource towers for res.
alt Healing:
On the licking heal ability, if this causes players to be able to survive for longer periods whilst putting them out of action whilst healing. Then this ability is probably a good thing.
but it could possibly be too overpowering for the skulk to have as an alt ability early on in the game. Especially if they have already been given more health.
It may cause people to be less thought out/careful in their attacks. then panicky retreat to heal. and could change the flow of gameplay for the worse.
Also I have always though of it as the job of Gorges to heal players. and giving this ability to skulks would mean less reliability on teamwork.
don't The Kaharra have enough healing abilities as it is without this one included.
Alt attacks:
I'm not keen on the tongue whip idea. To me this seems completely out of character for the skulk. (all I keep thinking of is Jar Jar Binks... and thats not a good thing)
In regards with the spin/kick attack, whilst it is an decent suggestion, I really can't see it fitting in game. (how would it work?)
I've always seen the skulk as a kind of dog with very frontal attacks. and a kicking skulk just seem out of character.
I'm for having the alt fire the leap ability.... unless of course you have already got an idea for a leap alt ability already. in that case, may I suggest simply having a "charged bite" holding down the alt fire for a few seconds to charge up a more powerful chomp.
"alien: DONT KILL HIM, all the skulks grapple him!"
"alien: HAHAHA he has 5 skulks on him!"
"alien: LaWl"
"marine: D:"
how about to have MB1 be the bite attack and MB2 be the leap it would be much easer to just do combos instead of switching by numbers all the time as we did in NS1.
and u can still have the Parasite ability only with temporarily effect that goes of the marin body/structure after a certain time or by welder ( combination maybe? ) I love the concept of the alien commander being able to scout but remember that he allready has a lot of job to do, so i think temporarily parasite is a perfekt solution for the skulk.
what do you guys think?
I definitely think all the abilities and movements should be assignable directly without menus. I'm fairly certain this is true.
As for the 'grapple' possibility, I think something similar to the spy backstab of TF2 would great. It would not be instant death like the spy; it would be a snare attack to assist in taking down a lone marine with 2 or more skulks. The backbite would decrease the players movement and turning speed/jumping and be disorienting while still maintaining control of view and aiming (albeit slower mouse speed and less precise). This allows a skulk to disable a rambo threat without actually defeating him if the skulk can anticipate or out maneuver. The grenade self tactic could be used to free up yourself in a pinch. Other marines could easily shoot the skulk to death or melee off the skulk.
This works to make rambos very risky business, as marine ninjas should be, while not making the grapple attack be instant death for a marine with friends around the corner. It gives skulks a chancy high skill option to remain effective in ambushing and teamplay.
The new skulk looks awesome and the vents are going to be fantastic!
Similarly, if you do decide to use any of the "grab" options being suggested here, perhaps that shouldn't be its own weapon, but rather a function of Bite. Maybe either bite and hold the key, or hold the key to "charge up" the bite into a grab.
Hmm... that "charge up" line of thought just gave me an idea: It might be interesting if a Skulk could charge up its bite to increase the damage. This would let it easily take out a lone Marine if it got the drop on him, but make it much harder to take out a squad alone, since then it'd just be spamming weaker attacks.
Anyway, as for suggestions on the attacks themselves: Babblers! *cough* But seriously, Xenocide really seems like a good fit for the Skulk. Parasite, too, but if you don't want that, maybe the Lerk's old Spike shooter? Actually, now that I've mentioned it, a modification of Babblers might work pretty well as a provoker. Maybe give the Skulk a smaller, weaker minion that it can spawn (maybe something kinda face-huggery/spidery), that sits still for a couple seconds, and then skitters straight forward along the floor/wall/ceiling. If it gets near a Marine, it steers toward it and tries to bite/explode near him for weak damage. Lightly armored, but usable for harassment, or, for clever Skulks, a diversion for an ambush (thanks to the slight delay). If you want to give it a defensive use, maybe even make it like a Spider Mine with a pretty wide search radius instead of having it skitter forward automatically.
Edit: re: Parasite: Really, I don't see what's wrong with having the Skulks do a lot of the scouting. The commanders of real armies don't do the scouting themselves. The cannon fodder does the scouting, and the commander takes the info they provide and uses it to coordinate the army. I mean, that's obviously not the only way to do it, but it makes sense. Commanders usually have a lot to worry about already. At the very least it might be nice to spread the intel-gathering duties around a bit.
Edit 2: Also, the Skulk looks fantastic. Nice work.
You could keep parasite as a per-player thing that wears off after a minute and it'd still be useful.
I have to agree here, the most annying thing about parasite, and most usefull is it alows the aliens to track and easily ambush you. I know the alien commander is the scout and co-ordinator for the aliens. But haveing the parasite alows the skulk to be more effective as he can track, hide and ambush more easily. A temporary parasite that lasted a short amount of time would be better than removeing it totaly. Even if only the skulk who used it could see it... hmm, that might actualy be a good idea as it means its not a scouting ability but a hunter/tracker ability
And the Gorge had better be cute and sexy!
I always thought you were supposed to get parasited so as to bait more skulks towards you and rack up more killzzzz. weird...
BUT it has some postional aspect to it...
Say for instance you grapple a marine from the front the marine will be able to damage the alien with his tazer or gun...But if the grapple is from behind he has no way to do damage to the skulk unless a team-mate shoots it...
That should add an extra dimension of tactic for skulks and hopefully keep the attack in balance.
These buggers can run on walls upside-down but can't latch onto a soft fleshy human :D