If someone can't complete a task, there are TWO BINARY reasons.
The person is either physically incapable of completing the task or ignorant of the steps necessary.
Ignorance is not a pejorative. Is English your first language?
ig⋅no⋅rant   /ˈɪgnərənt/ [ig-ner-uhnt] –adjective 1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man. 2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics. 3. uninformed; unaware. 4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1729325:date=Sep 28 2009, 01:52 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Sep 28 2009, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If someone can't complete a task, there are TWO BINARY reasons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're assuming they accept the task as worth trying, which some don't.
<!--quoteo(post=1729308:date=Sep 28 2009, 06:19 PM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Sep 28 2009, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if you think that call of duty and CS are realistic... you are sadly mistaken my office dwelling friends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agree with uou there..
But i am with a "tatical realism" clan that plays in a TCC league. They try to keep it realism to it and ofc tatical. Doh normal CoD4 woulden work so they use a modded version. But still possible on out pubb server.
<!--quoteo(post=1729297:date=Sep 28 2009, 04:24 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Sep 28 2009, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, they just don't care. It's not fun for them so they ignore it. I'm sorry it's hard for you to accept that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1729328:date=Sep 28 2009, 06:05 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Sep 28 2009, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're assuming they accept the task as worth trying, which some don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't that the very definition of ignorance? How can you tell that bunnyhopping is so evil without trying it? How can you be so polarized against it, to think that it's not fun without actually trying it?
Do you understand what you are arguing? Take some ritalin and reflect on this for a day.
But i am with a "tatical realism" clan that plays in a TCC league. They try to keep it realism to it and ofc tatical. Doh normal CoD4 woulden work so they use a modded version. But still possible on out pubb server.
Reamlism you should go with arma2 or aa3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I have arma 2, I'm just waiting for a new cooler so I can OC my cpu.
It seems like a Core 2 Quad 2.8Ghz isn't enough for stable FPS count.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1729334:date=Sep 28 2009, 02:17 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aNytiMe @ Sep 28 2009, 02:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't that the very definition of ignorance? How can you tell that bunnyhopping is so evil without trying it? How can you be so polarized against it, to think that it's not fun without actually trying it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, make unfounded assumptions much? I'm not saying bhop is evil, I'm not polarized against it, and I have tried it and know what it can do. For the record I agree with what someone else said earlier in this thread that NS1 has a great balance of arcade-y and tactical movement, as evidenced by the fact that both playstyles are heavily represented in NS1. I'm not taking issue with the word "ignorance"; just that it is assumed to be the reason people aren't all clamoring for arcade-y movement. Some people just don't like it as much and acrade-y movement is represented in enough games that you don't have to specifically bhop in NS1 to know whether you like arcade-y movement or not. <!--quoteo(post=1729334:date=Sep 28 2009, 02:17 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aNytiMe @ Sep 28 2009, 02:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you understand what you are arguing? Take some ritalin and reflect on this for a day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do, but apparently I wasn't clear enough for others to understand.
<!--quoteo(post=1729321:date=Sep 28 2009, 05:47 PM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Sep 28 2009, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It has been observed that the more fast paced a game is, the less teamwork is going on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, games like ArmA are one implementation of teamwork, but they are far different games than NS. On NS' case I'd try to improve the communications, teammate information, learning curve and teamwork depth. It's always better to help people to get over the challenges rather than simply lowering the bar.
As for the lightning quick bhop reducing teamwork and organised play taking the game too serious... I don't recommend going there unless you've got a solid idea. A lot of things are far more diverse and variable than it might seem on the first glance.
I've seen the opposition, and frankly you make boring arguments, so I'm just gonna go toss my coins in:
1) I believe that some people can't understand when they're just making themselves sound worse each passing second. Medically, I'm one of them and I acknowledge that, but at least I would concede and acknowledge the other party's arguments if I had no new ones to bring up, instead of stamping the same hateful statements into theirs and the neutral bystander's foreheads repeatedly like a devout nutter.
2) I think this topic's almost at a close now anyway, since Sirot cited official sources which clearly dictate what is to be expected, which effectively dissolved the debate. It would be advised to turn the volume down now methinks.
3) I believe "Advanced Movement" is present in NS1, <i>and</i> is obviously present to anyone who may have played NS as their first and only game against bots their whole life. It's called a "Jetpack" for the marines, and "Leap/Blink" for kharaa. They cost money, like all things do to reduce chaos and establish some sort of order to have fair games. Bhoping is free, and as such is worse than 1-hit-kill SG attacks (10 res a participant) on skulks and gorges, who get driven out in a large steamroll every 6/10 pub games on average, assuming that there are almost no clanners, moderate numbers and maps that do not favour skulk ambushes. Also, since it's clear that bhop is not available to all, teamwork <i>will</i> be lacking or disorganised, as it splits rine patrols into two different speed groups of rambos.
4) +1 to locallyunscene and Sirot for staying cool and level headed. I respect that, especially on a forum of all places.
<!--quoteo(post=1729351:date=Sep 28 2009, 01:58 PM:name=MikeyTWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeyTWolf @ Sep 28 2009, 01:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen the opposition, and frankly you make boring arguments, so I'm just gonna go toss my coins in:
1) I believe that some people can't understand when they're just making themselves sound worse each passing second. Medically, I'm one of them and I acknowledge that, but at least I would concede and acknowledge the other party's arguments if I had no new ones to bring up, instead of stamping the same hateful statements into theirs and the neutral bystander's foreheads repeatedly like a devout nutter.
2) I think this topic's almost at a close now anyway, since Sirot cited official sources which clearly dictate what is to be expected, which effectively dissolved the debate. It would be advised to turn the volume down now methinks. <b> 3) I believe "Advanced Movement" is present in NS1, <i>and</i> is obviously present to anyone who may have played NS as their first and only game against bots their whole life. It's called a "Jetpack" for the marines, and "Leap/Blink" for kharaa. They cost money, like all things do to reduce chaos and establish some sort of order to have fair games. Bhoping is free, and as such is worse than 1-hit-kill SG attacks (10 res a participant) on skulks and gorges, who get driven out in a large steamroll every 6/10 pub games on average, assuming that there are almost no clanners, moderate numbers and maps that do not favour skulk ambushes. Also, since it's clear that bhop is not available to all, teamwork <i>will</i> be lacking or disorganised, as it splits rine patrols into two different speed groups of rambos.</b>
4) +1 to locallyunscene and Sirot for staying cool and level headed. I respect that, especially on a forum of all places.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--quoteo(post=1729351:date=Sep 28 2009, 02:58 PM:name=MikeyTWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeyTWolf @ Sep 28 2009, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) I believe "Advanced Movement" is present in NS1, <i>and</i> is obviously present to anyone who may have played NS as their first and only game against bots their whole life. It's called a "Jetpack" for the marines, and "Leap/Blink" for kharaa. They cost money, like all things do to reduce chaos and establish some sort of order to have fair games. Bhoping is free, and as such is worse than 1-hit-kill SG attacks (10 res a participant) on skulks and gorges, who get driven out in a large steamroll every 6/10 pub games on average, assuming that there are almost no clanners, moderate numbers and maps that do not favour skulk ambushes. Also, since it's clear that bhop is not available to all, teamwork <i>will</i> be lacking or disorganised, as it splits rine patrols into two different speed groups of rambos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm having some difficulty parsing your "bhopping is free" sentence, but I should note that aiming is free too and I don't see much opposition to including the ability to aim. As for jetpack, leap, and blink, there is indeed some depth to those abilities but they are only available for small portions of the game and none of them has close to the depth of bunnyhopping. Leap, in particular, hardly has any depth beyond that provided by air-control (an aspect of bunnyhopping).
Regardless, I completely agree with Sirot's assessment (and both arguments presented). I just hope the developers can come up with an intuitive movement skill that has close to the depth of bunnyhopping, because I certainly can't. (In particular, I hope it's not just the change of making leap a base ability, unless the ability is heavily altered.)
Here's my post for convenience.<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't that the very definition of ignorance? How can you tell that bunnyhopping is so evil without trying it? How can you be so polarized against it, to think that it's not fun without actually trying it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1729343:date=Sep 28 2009, 06:30 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Sep 28 2009, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, make unfounded assumptions much? I'm not saying bhop is evil, I'm not polarized against it, and I have tried it and know what it can do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That wasn't aimed at you directly, that was aimed at people you are trying to defend for reasons completely beyond me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the record I agree with what someone else said earlier in this thread that NS1 has a great balance of arcade-y and tactical movement, as evidenced by the fact that both playstyles are heavily represented in NS1. I'm not taking issue with the word "ignorance"; just that it is assumed to be the reason people aren't all clamoring for arcade-y movement. Some people just don't like it as much and acrade-y movement is represented in enough games that you don't have to specifically bhop in NS1 to know whether you like arcade-y movement or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How is it fair not to like it if you've never tried it? How is THAT not ignorance? How can ignorant people have any respectable say in anything?
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1729366:date=Sep 28 2009, 04:12 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aNytiMe @ Sep 28 2009, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is it fair not to like it if you've never tried it? How is THAT not ignorance? How can ignorant people have any respectable say in anything?
Do you understand?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again: <!--quoteo(post=1729301:date=Sep 28 2009, 12:56 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Sep 28 2009, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're right, I have to kill someone before I can make a judgment on whether killing people is something I want to do. Obviously I'm speaking from a position of ignorance because I don't want to kill people even though I've never done it. I'm not comparing killing people to bhop, I'm just showing you why your argument is rubbish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> For something less abstract, if you've played UT, Quake, whatever and don't like arcade-y movement, you probably won't like it in NS either.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm having some difficulty parsing your "bhopping is free" sentence, but I should note that aiming is free too and I don't see much opposition to including the ability to aim. As for jetpack, leap, and blink, there is indeed some depth to those abilities but they are only available for small portions of the game and none of them has close to the depth of bunnyhopping. Leap, in particular, hardly has any depth beyond that provided by air-control (an aspect of bunnyhopping).
Regardless, I completely agree with Sirot's assessment (and both arguments presented). I just hope the developers can come up with an intuitive movement skill that has close to the depth of bunnyhopping, because I certainly can't. (In particular, I hope it's not just the change of making leap a base ability, unless the ability is heavily altered.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +10
How mature. Then again, OP did it too, but I question your apparent delusion to make you significantly higher than that of mod (+2 max), admin (+3) or Dev (+5).
EDIT: Values may be subject to change at any time based on interpretations of power, but I don't see anyone else coming up with a better ruling on this. At least, not in the thread history anyway.
QFT I accept, marginally. As far as I'm aware though, there's a reason why +1 exists.
On another angle, freedom of speech denies -1, with reasonable exceptions (bot spam etc.) since you cannot veto someone elses' opinion or vote, and there's no "And with my vote, I'd like to take one away from the tories/labour/lib dems (please circle)" option on the polls I believe.
<!--quoteo(post=1729372:date=Sep 28 2009, 03:32 PM:name=MikeyTWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeyTWolf @ Sep 28 2009, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How mature. Then again, OP did it too, but I question your apparent delusion to make you significantly higher than that of mod (+2 max), admin (+3) or Dev (+5).
EDIT: Values may be subject to change at any time based on interpretations of power, but I don't see anyone else coming up with a better ruling on this. At least, not in the thread history anyway.
QFT I accept, marginally. As far as I'm aware though, there's a reason why +1 exists.
On another angle, freedom of speech denies -1, with reasonable exceptions (bot spam etc.) since you cannot veto someone elses' opinion or vote, and there's no "And with my vote, I'd like to take one away from the tories/labour/lib dems (please circle)" option on the polls I believe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was trying to lighten up the mood with a faint joke, but I understand your concern.
-Diesel-: +1 a_civilian: -10 <-- that just happened and for good measures MikeyTWolf: +1
For something less abstract, if you've played UT, Quake, whatever and don't like arcade-y movement, you probably won't like it in NS either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought you were joking. Bringing up an immense exaggeration such as murder into the equation is pretty much like bringing in Hitler. GODWIN.gif
What if it's different in NS? You'll never know until you try it.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1729374:date=Sep 28 2009, 05:11 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aNytiMe @ Sep 28 2009, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if it's different in NS? You'll never know until you try it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's obvious you're going to repeat the same thing over and over as if people can't learn from past experiences. For me, this discussion is done.
<!--quoteo(post=1729375:date=Sep 28 2009, 04:15 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Sep 28 2009, 04:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping can be learned in a few minutes and mastered in a few hours. It has little to do with skill or in-depth knowledge of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know about that... maybe with scripts, but even then, that's pushing it. I would say with spacebar alone (no mouse wheel), 2-4 weeks to master at 7hours a week, depending on the person. I believe that it does require a certain amount of dexterity to get it right, I don't think anyone could do it... but that's just me.
When did fast skilled movement ever hinder teamplay or tactics?
A skilled movement system, be it bhop or whatever, should be one of the backbones in NS2 just like it was in NS. Why would we fancy NS2 to be just another slow casual tactical fps, the marked is already swarmed with such. And leap doesn’t count as skilled movement nor does a “push to sprint†button, but I’m afraid that this’ll be all we get in NS2. If that’s the case I think I’ll stick with QL :)
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited September 2009
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping can be learned in a few minutes and mastered in a few hours. It has little to do with skill or in-depth knowledge of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To be clear, bunnyhopping here refers to the acceleration and control method (strafe-turning, in air and on ground) as well. With that in mind, I'd like to see someone who learned bunnyhopping / air control only a few hours prior, 1) accelerate from rest to maximum non-celerity speed (493) in ~2 jumps consistently (without using a wall), and 2) maintain an average speed considerably above maximum while traversing tight corridors and uneven ground, as the two most basic examples.
<!--quoteo(post=1729375:date=Sep 28 2009, 01:15 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Sep 28 2009, 01:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping can be learned in a few months and mastered in a few decades. It has everything to do with skill and little to do with an in-depth knowledge of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1729372:date=Sep 28 2009, 03:32 PM:name=MikeyTWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeyTWolf @ Sep 28 2009, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How mature. Then again, OP did it too, but I question your apparent delusion to make you significantly higher than that of mod (+2 max), admin (+3) or Dev (+5).
EDIT: Values may be subject to change at any time based on interpretations of power, but I don't see anyone else coming up with a better ruling on this. At least, not in the thread history anyway.
QFT I accept, marginally. As far as I'm aware though, there's a reason why +1 exists.
On another angle, freedom of speech denies -1, with reasonable exceptions (bot spam etc.) since you cannot veto someone elses' opinion or vote, and there's no "And with my vote, I'd like to take one away from the tories/labour/lib dems (please circle)" option on the polls I believe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 just means "I agree"
I don't see how that makes you "immature". +10s and -1s I've never seen before.
<!--quoteo(post=1729376:date=Sep 28 2009, 04:18 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Sep 28 2009, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's obvious you're going to repeat the same thing over and over as if people can't learn from past experiences. For me, this discussion is done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, your argument is not logically coherent.
The experience of people PLAYING NS and using advanced movement abilities trumps the assumptions made from playing other games.
Every time.
In fact, a person without those advanced movement skills CANNOT be considered a competent NS player. As you have acknowledged, NS is BALANCED around these abilities. Inability to use them makes the alien game weaker than designed INTENTIONALLY by the developers. Your opinion is contrary to the DEVELOPER INTENT.
Comments
The person is either physically incapable of completing the task or ignorant of the steps necessary.
Ignorance is not a pejorative. Is English your first language?
igâ‹…noâ‹…rant
  /ˈɪgnərənt/ [ig-ner-uhnt]
–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.
You're assuming they accept the task as worth trying, which some don't.
agree with uou there..
But i am with a "tatical realism" clan that plays in a TCC league. They try to keep it realism to it and ofc tatical. Doh normal CoD4 woulden work so they use a modded version. But still possible on out pubb server.
Reamlism you should go with arma2 or aa3.
<!--quoteo(post=1729328:date=Sep 28 2009, 06:05 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Sep 28 2009, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're assuming they accept the task as worth trying, which some don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't that the very definition of ignorance? How can you tell that bunnyhopping is so evil without trying it? How can you be so polarized against it, to think that it's not fun without actually trying it?
Do you understand what you are arguing? Take some ritalin and reflect on this for a day.
But i am with a "tatical realism" clan that plays in a TCC league. They try to keep it realism to it and ofc tatical. Doh normal CoD4 woulden work so they use a modded version. But still possible on out pubb server.
Reamlism you should go with arma2 or aa3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I have arma 2, I'm just waiting for a new cooler so I can OC my cpu.
It seems like a Core 2 Quad 2.8Ghz isn't enough for stable FPS count.
>.<
Which firmly puts them in the ignorant camp.
Wow, make unfounded assumptions much? I'm not saying bhop is evil, I'm not polarized against it, and I have tried it and know what it can do. For the record I agree with what someone else said earlier in this thread that NS1 has a great balance of arcade-y and tactical movement, as evidenced by the fact that both playstyles are heavily represented in NS1. I'm not taking issue with the word "ignorance"; just that it is assumed to be the reason people aren't all clamoring for arcade-y movement. Some people just don't like it as much and acrade-y movement is represented in enough games that you don't have to specifically bhop in NS1 to know whether you like arcade-y movement or not.
<!--quoteo(post=1729334:date=Sep 28 2009, 02:17 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aNytiMe @ Sep 28 2009, 02:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you understand what you are arguing? Take some ritalin and reflect on this for a day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do, but apparently I wasn't clear enough for others to understand.
Well, games like ArmA are one implementation of teamwork, but they are far different games than NS. On NS' case I'd try to improve the communications, teammate information, learning curve and teamwork depth. It's always better to help people to get over the challenges rather than simply lowering the bar.
As for the lightning quick bhop reducing teamwork and organised play taking the game too serious... I don't recommend going there unless you've got a solid idea. A lot of things are far more diverse and variable than it might seem on the first glance.
1) I believe that some people can't understand when they're just making themselves sound worse each passing second. Medically, I'm one of them and I acknowledge that, but at least I would concede and acknowledge the other party's arguments if I had no new ones to bring up, instead of stamping the same hateful statements into theirs and the neutral bystander's foreheads repeatedly like a devout nutter.
2) I think this topic's almost at a close now anyway, since Sirot cited official sources which clearly dictate what is to be expected, which effectively dissolved the debate. It would be advised to turn the volume down now methinks.
3) I believe "Advanced Movement" is present in NS1, <i>and</i> is obviously present to anyone who may have played NS as their first and only game against bots their whole life. It's called a "Jetpack" for the marines, and "Leap/Blink" for kharaa. They cost money, like all things do to reduce chaos and establish some sort of order to have fair games. Bhoping is free, and as such is worse than 1-hit-kill SG attacks (10 res a participant) on skulks and gorges, who get driven out in a large steamroll every 6/10 pub games on average, assuming that there are almost no clanners, moderate numbers and maps that do not favour skulk ambushes. Also, since it's clear that bhop is not available to all, teamwork <i>will</i> be lacking or disorganised, as it splits rine patrols into two different speed groups of rambos.
4) +1 to locallyunscene and Sirot for staying cool and level headed. I respect that, especially on a forum of all places.
1) I believe that some people can't understand when they're just making themselves sound worse each passing second. Medically, I'm one of them and I acknowledge that, but at least I would concede and acknowledge the other party's arguments if I had no new ones to bring up, instead of stamping the same hateful statements into theirs and the neutral bystander's foreheads repeatedly like a devout nutter.
2) I think this topic's almost at a close now anyway, since Sirot cited official sources which clearly dictate what is to be expected, which effectively dissolved the debate. It would be advised to turn the volume down now methinks.
<b>
3) I believe "Advanced Movement" is present in NS1, <i>and</i> is obviously present to anyone who may have played NS as their first and only game against bots their whole life. It's called a "Jetpack" for the marines, and "Leap/Blink" for kharaa. They cost money, like all things do to reduce chaos and establish some sort of order to have fair games. Bhoping is free, and as such is worse than 1-hit-kill SG attacks (10 res a participant) on skulks and gorges, who get driven out in a large steamroll every 6/10 pub games on average, assuming that there are almost no clanners, moderate numbers and maps that do not favour skulk ambushes. Also, since it's clear that bhop is not available to all, teamwork <i>will</i> be lacking or disorganised, as it splits rine patrols into two different speed groups of rambos.</b>
4) +1 to locallyunscene and Sirot for staying cool and level headed. I respect that, especially on a forum of all places.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I'm having some difficulty parsing your "bhopping is free" sentence, but I should note that aiming is free too and I don't see much opposition to including the ability to aim. As for jetpack, leap, and blink, there is indeed some depth to those abilities but they are only available for small portions of the game and none of them has close to the depth of bunnyhopping. Leap, in particular, hardly has any depth beyond that provided by air-control (an aspect of bunnyhopping).
Regardless, I completely agree with Sirot's assessment (and both arguments presented). I just hope the developers can come up with an intuitive movement skill that has close to the depth of bunnyhopping, because I certainly can't. (In particular, I hope it's not just the change of making leap a base ability, unless the ability is heavily altered.)
It was a developer MISTAKE that made the ability to bunny hop arcane knowledge for much of the community.
<!--quoteo(post=1729343:date=Sep 28 2009, 06:30 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Sep 28 2009, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, make unfounded assumptions much? I'm not saying bhop is evil, I'm not polarized against it, and I have tried it and know what it can do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That wasn't aimed at you directly, that was aimed at people you are trying to defend for reasons completely beyond me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the record I agree with what someone else said earlier in this thread that NS1 has a great balance of arcade-y and tactical movement, as evidenced by the fact that both playstyles are heavily represented in NS1. I'm not taking issue with the word "ignorance"; just that it is assumed to be the reason people aren't all clamoring for arcade-y movement. Some people just don't like it as much and acrade-y movement is represented in enough games that you don't have to specifically bhop in NS1 to know whether you like arcade-y movement or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is it fair not to like it if you've never tried it? How is THAT not ignorance? How can ignorant people have any respectable say in anything?
Do you understand?
Do you understand?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again:
<!--quoteo(post=1729301:date=Sep 28 2009, 12:56 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Sep 28 2009, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're right, I have to kill someone before I can make a judgment on whether killing people is something I want to do. Obviously I'm speaking from a position of ignorance because I don't want to kill people even though I've never done it. I'm not comparing killing people to bhop, I'm just showing you why your argument is rubbish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For something less abstract, if you've played UT, Quake, whatever and don't like arcade-y movement, you probably won't like it in NS either.
-1
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm having some difficulty parsing your "bhopping is free" sentence, but I should note that aiming is free too and I don't see much opposition to including the ability to aim. As for jetpack, leap, and blink, there is indeed some depth to those abilities but they are only available for small portions of the game and none of them has close to the depth of bunnyhopping. Leap, in particular, hardly has any depth beyond that provided by air-control (an aspect of bunnyhopping).
Regardless, I completely agree with Sirot's assessment (and both arguments presented). I just hope the developers can come up with an intuitive movement skill that has close to the depth of bunnyhopping, because I certainly can't. (In particular, I hope it's not just the change of making leap a base ability, unless the ability is heavily altered.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+10
+10<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How mature. Then again, OP did it too, but I question your apparent delusion to make you significantly higher than that of mod (+2 max), admin (+3) or Dev (+5).
EDIT: Values may be subject to change at any time based on interpretations of power, but I don't see anyone else coming up with a better ruling on this. At least, not in the thread history anyway.
QFT I accept, marginally. As far as I'm aware though, there's a reason why +1 exists.
On another angle, freedom of speech denies -1, with reasonable exceptions (bot spam etc.) since you cannot veto someone elses' opinion or vote, and there's no "And with my vote, I'd like to take one away from the tories/labour/lib dems (please circle)" option on the polls I believe.
EDIT: Values may be subject to change at any time based on interpretations of power, but I don't see anyone else coming up with a better ruling on this. At least, not in the thread history anyway.
QFT I accept, marginally. As far as I'm aware though, there's a reason why +1 exists.
On another angle, freedom of speech denies -1, with reasonable exceptions (bot spam etc.) since you cannot veto someone elses' opinion or vote, and there's no "And with my vote, I'd like to take one away from the tories/labour/lib dems (please circle)" option on the polls I believe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was trying to lighten up the mood with a faint joke, but I understand your concern.
-Diesel-: +1
a_civilian: -10 <-- that just happened
and for good measures
MikeyTWolf: +1
...now carry on.
For something less abstract, if you've played UT, Quake, whatever and don't like arcade-y movement, you probably won't like it in NS either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought you were joking. Bringing up an immense exaggeration such as murder into the equation is pretty much like bringing in Hitler. GODWIN.gif
What if it's different in NS? You'll never know until you try it.
It's obvious you're going to repeat the same thing over and over as if people can't learn from past experiences. For me, this discussion is done.
I don't know about that... maybe with scripts, but even then, that's pushing it.
I would say with spacebar alone (no mouse wheel), 2-4 weeks to master at 7hours a week, depending on the person.
I believe that it does require a certain amount of dexterity to get it right, I don't think anyone could do it... but that's just me.
A skilled movement system, be it bhop or whatever, should be one of the backbones in NS2 just like it was in NS. Why would we fancy NS2 to be just another slow casual tactical fps, the marked is already swarmed with such.
And leap doesn’t count as skilled movement nor does a “push to sprint†button, but I’m afraid that this’ll be all we get in NS2. If that’s the case I think I’ll stick with QL :)
To be clear, bunnyhopping here refers to the acceleration and control method (strafe-turning, in air and on ground) as well. With that in mind, I'd like to see someone who learned bunnyhopping / air control only a few hours prior,
1) accelerate from rest to maximum non-celerity speed (493) in ~2 jumps consistently (without using a wall), and
2) maintain an average speed considerably above maximum while traversing tight corridors and uneven ground,
as the two most basic examples.
I'm on the thing! D:
I'm on the thing! D:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right on, alright good to close.
fixed.
EDIT: Values may be subject to change at any time based on interpretations of power, but I don't see anyone else coming up with a better ruling on this. At least, not in the thread history anyway.
QFT I accept, marginally. As far as I'm aware though, there's a reason why +1 exists.
On another angle, freedom of speech denies -1, with reasonable exceptions (bot spam etc.) since you cannot veto someone elses' opinion or vote, and there's no "And with my vote, I'd like to take one away from the tories/labour/lib dems (please circle)" option on the polls I believe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 just means "I agree"
I don't see how that makes you "immature". +10s and -1s I've never seen before.
Sorry, your argument is not logically coherent.
The experience of people PLAYING NS and using advanced movement abilities trumps the assumptions made from playing other games.
Every time.
In fact, a person without those advanced movement skills CANNOT be considered a competent NS player. As you have acknowledged, NS is BALANCED around these abilities. Inability to use them makes the alien game weaker than designed INTENTIONALLY by the developers. Your opinion is contrary to the DEVELOPER INTENT.
That is the most important thing, if yes... then there is nothing we can do about it.
If no, Then stop whining because it is just a glitched way to go faster.