<!--quoteo(post=1729577:date=Sep 29 2009, 08:39 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Sep 29 2009, 08:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have a good point civilian, but to a person who doesn't know much about bhop it wouldn't make much sense. As a result, I don't think that it is a good analogy to use when explaining the value of bhop to others. Aiming is something everyone has to do and can't be avoided. To a competitive player bhop is the same way, but to most other players this is not the case. In this way the analogy is completely lost on the group you're trying to reach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can we stop using the red herring of "players that don't know x" when x is a BASIC PART of ns?
I've been repeating the FACT that NS1 is balanced around bhop to show that advanced movement is JUST AS VITAL to the game as aim is. Good movement skill is JUST AS IMPORTANT as aim. I could claim that the fade is underpowered if the player using it has no idea how to blink. Most of us would understand that using the lowest common denominator is not a valid way to determine balance or usefulness.
Frankly, there is NO WAY to convince anti-bhopers the value and fun of advanced movement ability through argument.
The only way to do it us by giving you all the tools and lessons and tutoring needed to open up the FULL GAME of NS.
The <bad> clan is a perfect example of this. Their community started by banning EVERY steamID that was a member of CALns. Now they can put together a mid-tier omega scrim team and have turned off blockscripts.
How was this accomplished? Through calm and civil discussion? Hell no. People spent hours with individuals training them and scrimming with them. What finally changed the minds of bad clan was ACTUAL EXPERIENCE playing the game at a decent level.
If any of you would like to learn to bhop, send me a PM. I'll teach you the basics.
<!--quoteo(post=1729595:date=Sep 29 2009, 11:03 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Sep 29 2009, 11:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it's a gross exaggeration? (And I won't go further into it because I don't want to debate a <b>feature that no longer exists</b>).
I don't care the least about bunny hopping (I said what I needed to say a long time ago, see page 1). I am personally here to antagonize Opprobrious because he is trying to segregate the community by calling anyone who can't bunny hop stupid or ignorant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you admit to trolling. Isn't that a bannable offense?
You are willfully mischaracterizing my argument. Either you are lying or you don't know the definition of ignorant(I provided it in this thread). I'm not calling people who can't bhop stupid. I am calling them ignorant. Ignorance is not the same thing as stupidity. Ignorance can be cured with knowledge. Stupidity is forever.
I find it SAD that people are not aware of the full depth of NS.
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->It comes down to this: bhop is the "**** it, deep" of NS. Sure, if you get good at that you'll crush noobs, and you might get lucky against players/teams with actual skill and smarts, but it's no match for actual, solid skill. And, when you have that actual, solid skill, it's almost useless, except for desperation moves or spectacularly crushing noobs.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1729611:date=Sep 29 2009, 06:12 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Sep 29 2009, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can we stop using the red herring of "players that don't know x" when x is a BASIC PART of ns?
I've been repeating the FACT that NS1 is balanced around bhop to show that advanced movement is JUST AS VITAL to the game as aim is. Good movement skill is JUST AS IMPORTANT as aim. <b> I could claim that the fade is underpowered if the player using it has no idea how to blink. </b> Most of us would understand that using the lowest common denominator is not a valid way to determine balance or usefulness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait... what?
What's a lowest common denominator?
And btw, I'm a good fade. I know how to (crouch-)blink. Has nothing to do with bhoping, and still doesn't change the fact HMGs and HA ultimately denies any decent fade a chance of winning a fight. Even a one on one has to result is the fade either dying or escaping after ONE attack with half health. And, god forbid, should the rines have more than one together in any one place, the apocalypse ensues. Considering the common trend is HA in 8 minutes, and building a second hive alone takes approx. 5 minutes, when rines can push-conquer-siege the middle hive in just 2-3, how will skill come into anything?
Also, nice double post moron. An entire post to claim someone else of trolling, when it would appear to me that you yourself are trying to claim dibs on that role. And if anything, defining ignorance in a forum to the masses and labelling that to said masses is pure stupidity in itself, and, yes it is, ignorance. See how they're so similar?
Let's try a new one, patronising. Heard of that darling? It's where I point out that you are ignorant enough to label the majority as ignorant, and expect said majority to agree and respect you because of this statement, in an overly sarcastic tone. Oh deary, I do believe I have repeated myself. Oh hahaha. At least everyone else is doing the same!
<!--quoteo(post=1729613:date=Sep 29 2009, 01:24 PM:name=briktal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (briktal @ Sep 29 2009, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it comes down to this: bhop is the "**** it, deep" of NS. Sure, if you get good at that you'll crush noobs, and you might get lucky against players/teams with actual skill and smarts, but it's no match for actual, solid skill. And, when you have that actual, solid skill, it's almost useless, except for desperation moves or spectacularly crushing noobs.
~~Sickle~~<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong on so many levels.
Bhopping AND ADVANCED MOVEMENT SKILL is INDISPENSABLE for "solid team with actual skill and smarts". Going from an ambush point on a wall to full speed and circle strafing a marine within 3 jumps is vital.
A marine with the skill to double jump backwards and open a huge space from an ambushing skulk is VITAL.
These are just two basic examples of why advanced movement skill is key to playing NS with any depth.
MikeyT,
You consistently make factually incorrect statements about NS1 (i.e.(JPs before an AA), 5 minutes for a building hive to complete, etc.) that makes any claim you make about NS balance suspect.
Oh, and nice personal attacks.
There is NO SHAME in being ignorant. It's impossible to know everything about everything. It's when people ARE STUBBORNLY ignorant and refuse to gain knowledge that they should be shamed.
I didn't know that it took .8 seconds to draw a shotgun after changing to it. a_civilian taught me that.
That was vital in changing the way I played with a shotgun. Was I ashamed that I didn't know that fact? No, but I had the humility to change the way I operated when I learned it.
I was once ignorant of bhopping until Golden taught me. Was I ashamed? No, but I had the humility to learn.
<!--quoteo(post=1729612:date=Sep 29 2009, 02:19 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Sep 29 2009, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729612"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you admit to trolling. Isn't that a bannable offense?
You are willfully mischaracterizing my argument. Either you are lying or you don't know the definition of ignorant(I provided it in this thread). I'm not calling people who can't bhop stupid. I am calling them ignorant. Ignorance is not the same thing as stupidity. Ignorance can be cured with knowledge. Stupidity is forever.
I find it SAD that people are not aware of the full depth of NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You call anyone who is against bunny hopping ignorant, because in your view, only people who haven't tried it dislike it. Or that is at least the message I am getting from you. I would like to direct you to the post where you did quote the definition of ignorance.
<!--quoteo(post=1729325:date=Sep 28 2009, 01:52 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Sep 28 2009, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If someone can't complete a task, there are TWO BINARY reasons.
The person is either physically incapable of completing the task or ignorant of the steps necessary.
<b>Ignorance is not a pejorative. Is English your first language? </b>
ig⋅no⋅rant   /ˈɪgnərənt/ [ig-ner-uhnt] –adjective 1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man. 2. <b>lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.</b> 3. uninformed; unaware. 4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it's true that you never called anyone directly stupid. But if you have to repeat the argument that "you are ignorant" in almost every post you made in this thread, you are bringing somethings in question. The first bolded item is you going "Is English your first language" which is a round about way of calling someone stupid. The second item is where you constantly saying that people are ignorant becomes juvenile. People here that are discussing bunny hopping and are against it are fully aware of what it is. That is not a position of ignorance. That is a position of disagreeing with you.
I can (or could do) bunny hopping, I just didn't enjoy it. It was more work than I wanted for a game that I played to unwind and I found it boring. That is purely subjective reasons. The same way people find bunny hopping fun or interesting, that is their opinion and I have nothing against it.
EDIT: I would like to reiterate that I am not saying Bunny Hopping is terrible and I have nothing against it. It's not even in NS2, I covered the pros and cons of it in page 1 and called talking about it pointless earlier as well. I take it as a personal offense that not liking something makes me ignorant.
EDIT 2: MikeyTWolf, I am debating of leaving this thread entirely like I did with the last major bunny hopping thread. But I am too much of a jerk to not chastise Opprobrious for being a nuisance.
<!--quoteo(post=1729616:date=Sep 29 2009, 06:35 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Sep 29 2009, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wrong on so many levels.
Bhopping AND ADVANCED MOVEMENT SKILL is INDISPENSABLE for "solid team with actual skill and smarts". Going from an ambush point on a wall to full speed and circle strafing a marine within 3 jumps is vital.
A marine with the skill to double jump backwards and open a huge space from an ambushing skulk is VITAL.
These are just two basic examples of why advanced movement skill is key to playing NS with any depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I heard was this: <a href="http://sharkrobot.com/store/images/large/shirt_catapult_LRG.jpg" target="_blank">http://sharkrobot.com/store/images/large/s...atapult_LRG.jpg</a>
Except a lot longer and more irrelevant.
Again, Sirot you would deserve another +1 for me if I hadn't already posted that it earlier. :P
And I'm not certain, but I think I detect traces of a hidden, devout and dark gaming cult being preached here... Sounds awfully familiar to certain religious trends.
EDIT: Btw, when IS this topic gonna get locked? Looks like it's another thinly disguised debate thread, which I'm sure from the sounds of it, is a dead horse pinata party around here.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1729617:date=Sep 29 2009, 02:41 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Sep 29 2009, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729617"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can (or could do) bunny hopping, I just didn't enjoy it. It was more work than I wanted for a game that I played to unwind and I found it boring. That is a purely subjective reason. The same way people find bunny hopping fun or interesting, that is their opinion and I have nothing against it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think you're going to get anywhere with this. His myopic view is firmly entrenched. I wish I had stopped after the first page. <!--quoteo(post=1729297:date=Sep 28 2009, 12:24 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Sep 28 2009, 12:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, they just don't care. It's not fun for them so they ignore it. I'm sorry it's hard for you to accept that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't believe that you can bhop Sirot. Prove it. When I asked if English was your first language, I was trying to be polite. You kept equating ignorance with stupidity when they are NOT THE SAME.
One of the most important parts of being an adult is having the humility to know when you just don't have the knowledge required to make an informed comment.
I know what quadruple bypass surgery is. I'm still ignorant of how to do it.
I should be ignored if I argue against it. Especially, by qualified medical professionals who think it is a very important to cardiovascular medicine.
NS1 is balanced around Bhop. This is a fact. You can't do it, and are therefore unqualified to comment about NS1 balance.
Hey look! He's truly snapped everyone! Gg all, it was close, but we made it. Looks to me like a textbook description of disorganised thinking, one of the many symptoms of the often misunderstood diagnosis of Schizophrenia. All he needs is another symptom, 6 months of suffering from them, unemployment as a result and loss of social skills.
<!--quoteo(post=1729621:date=Sep 29 2009, 02:52 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Sep 29 2009, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't believe that you can bhop Sirot. Prove it.
I know what quadruple bypass surgery is. I'm still ignorant of how to do it.
I should be ignored if I argue against it. Especially, by qualified medical professionals who think it is a very important to cardiovascular medicine.
NS1 is balanced around Bhop. This is a fact. You can't do it, and are therefore unqualified to comment about NS1 balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point exactly. You can't comprehend that someone could try bunny hopping and not enjoy it. People are allowed to having differing opinions and for some reason, that offends you.
Comments
Can we stop using the red herring of "players that don't know x" when x is a BASIC PART of ns?
I've been repeating the FACT that NS1 is balanced around bhop to show that advanced movement is JUST AS VITAL to the game as aim is. Good movement skill is JUST AS IMPORTANT as aim. I could claim that the fade is underpowered if the player using it has no idea how to blink. Most of us would understand that using the lowest common denominator is not a valid way to determine balance or usefulness.
Frankly, there is NO WAY to convince anti-bhopers the value and fun of advanced movement ability through argument.
The only way to do it us by giving you all the tools and lessons and tutoring needed to open up the FULL GAME of NS.
The <bad> clan is a perfect example of this. Their community started by banning EVERY steamID that was a member of CALns. Now they can put together a mid-tier omega scrim team and have turned off blockscripts.
How was this accomplished? Through calm and civil discussion? Hell no. People spent hours with individuals training them and scrimming with them. What finally changed the minds of bad clan was ACTUAL EXPERIENCE playing the game at a decent level.
If any of you would like to learn to bhop, send me a PM. I'll teach you the basics.
I don't care the least about bunny hopping (I said what I needed to say a long time ago, see page 1). I am personally here to antagonize Opprobrious because he is trying to segregate the community by calling anyone who can't bunny hop stupid or ignorant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you admit to trolling. Isn't that a bannable offense?
You are willfully mischaracterizing my argument. Either you are lying or you don't know the definition of ignorant(I provided it in this thread). I'm not calling people who can't bhop stupid. I am calling them ignorant. Ignorance is not the same thing as stupidity. Ignorance can be cured with knowledge. Stupidity is forever.
I find it SAD that people are not aware of the full depth of NS.
~~Sickle~~
I've been repeating the FACT that NS1 is balanced around bhop to show that advanced movement is JUST AS VITAL to the game as aim is. Good movement skill is JUST AS IMPORTANT as aim. <b> I could claim that the fade is underpowered if the player using it has no idea how to blink. </b> Most of us would understand that using the lowest common denominator is not a valid way to determine balance or usefulness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait... what?
What's a lowest common denominator?
And btw, I'm a good fade. I know how to (crouch-)blink. Has nothing to do with bhoping, and still doesn't change the fact HMGs and HA ultimately denies any decent fade a chance of winning a fight. Even a one on one has to result is the fade either dying or escaping after ONE attack with half health. And, god forbid, should the rines have more than one together in any one place, the apocalypse ensues. Considering the common trend is HA in 8 minutes, and building a second hive alone takes approx. 5 minutes, when rines can push-conquer-siege the middle hive in just 2-3, how will skill come into anything?
Also, nice double post moron. An entire post to claim someone else of trolling, when it would appear to me that you yourself are trying to claim dibs on that role. And if anything, defining ignorance in a forum to the masses and labelling that to said masses is pure stupidity in itself, and, yes it is, ignorance. See how they're so similar?
Let's try a new one, patronising. Heard of that darling? It's where I point out that you are ignorant enough to label the majority as ignorant, and expect said majority to agree and respect you because of this statement, in an overly sarcastic tone. Oh deary, I do believe I have repeated myself. Oh hahaha. At least everyone else is doing the same!
Oh wait.
Off-topic; Heh. Passive roleplaying is fun.
~~Sickle~~<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong on so many levels.
Bhopping AND ADVANCED MOVEMENT SKILL is INDISPENSABLE for "solid team with actual skill and smarts". Going from an ambush point on a wall to full speed and circle strafing a marine within 3 jumps is vital.
A marine with the skill to double jump backwards and open a huge space from an ambushing skulk is VITAL.
These are just two basic examples of why advanced movement skill is key to playing NS with any depth.
MikeyT,
You consistently make factually incorrect statements about NS1 (i.e.(JPs before an AA), 5 minutes for a building hive to complete, etc.) that makes any claim you make about NS balance suspect.
Oh, and nice personal attacks.
There is NO SHAME in being ignorant. It's impossible to know everything about everything. It's when people ARE STUBBORNLY ignorant and refuse to gain knowledge that they should be shamed.
I didn't know that it took .8 seconds to draw a shotgun after changing to it. a_civilian taught me that.
That was vital in changing the way I played with a shotgun. Was I ashamed that I didn't know that fact? No, but I had the humility to change the way I operated when I learned it.
I was once ignorant of bhopping until Golden taught me. Was I ashamed? No, but I had the humility to learn.
You are willfully mischaracterizing my argument. Either you are lying or you don't know the definition of ignorant(I provided it in this thread). I'm not calling people who can't bhop stupid. I am calling them ignorant. Ignorance is not the same thing as stupidity. Ignorance can be cured with knowledge. Stupidity is forever.
I find it SAD that people are not aware of the full depth of NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You call anyone who is against bunny hopping ignorant, because in your view, only people who haven't tried it dislike it. Or that is at least the message I am getting from you. I would like to direct you to the post where you did quote the definition of ignorance.
<!--quoteo(post=1729325:date=Sep 28 2009, 01:52 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Sep 28 2009, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If someone can't complete a task, there are TWO BINARY reasons.
The person is either physically incapable of completing the task or ignorant of the steps necessary.
<b>Ignorance is not a pejorative. Is English your first language? </b>
igâ‹…noâ‹…rant
  /ˈɪgnərənt/ [ig-ner-uhnt]
–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. <b>lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.</b>
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it's true that you never called anyone directly stupid. But if you have to repeat the argument that "you are ignorant" in almost every post you made in this thread, you are bringing somethings in question. The first bolded item is you going "Is English your first language" which is a round about way of calling someone stupid. The second item is where you constantly saying that people are ignorant becomes juvenile. People here that are discussing bunny hopping and are against it are fully aware of what it is. That is not a position of ignorance. That is a position of disagreeing with you.
I can (or could do) bunny hopping, I just didn't enjoy it. It was more work than I wanted for a game that I played to unwind and I found it boring. That is purely subjective reasons. The same way people find bunny hopping fun or interesting, that is their opinion and I have nothing against it.
EDIT: I would like to reiterate that I am not saying Bunny Hopping is terrible and I have nothing against it. It's not even in NS2, I covered the pros and cons of it in page 1 and called talking about it pointless earlier as well. I take it as a personal offense that not liking something makes me ignorant.
EDIT 2: MikeyTWolf, I am debating of leaving this thread entirely like I did with the last major bunny hopping thread. But I am too much of a jerk to not chastise Opprobrious for being a nuisance.
Bhopping AND ADVANCED MOVEMENT SKILL is INDISPENSABLE for "solid team with actual skill and smarts". Going from an ambush point on a wall to full speed and circle strafing a marine within 3 jumps is vital.
A marine with the skill to double jump backwards and open a huge space from an ambushing skulk is VITAL.
These are just two basic examples of why advanced movement skill is key to playing NS with any depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I heard was this:
<a href="http://sharkrobot.com/store/images/large/shirt_catapult_LRG.jpg" target="_blank">http://sharkrobot.com/store/images/large/s...atapult_LRG.jpg</a>
Except a lot longer and more irrelevant.
Again, Sirot you would deserve another +1 for me if I hadn't already posted that it earlier. :P
And I'm not certain, but I think I detect traces of a hidden, devout and dark gaming cult being preached here... Sounds awfully familiar to certain religious trends.
EDIT: Btw, when IS this topic gonna get locked? Looks like it's another thinly disguised debate thread, which I'm sure from the sounds of it, is a dead horse pinata party around here.
I don't think you're going to get anywhere with this. His myopic view is firmly entrenched. I wish I had stopped after the first page.
<!--quoteo(post=1729297:date=Sep 28 2009, 12:24 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Sep 28 2009, 12:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, they just don't care. It's not fun for them so they ignore it. I'm sorry it's hard for you to accept that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of the most important parts of being an adult is having the humility to know when you just don't have the knowledge required to make an informed comment.
I know what quadruple bypass surgery is. I'm still ignorant of how to do it.
I should be ignored if I argue against it. Especially, by qualified medical professionals who think it is a very important to cardiovascular medicine.
NS1 is balanced around Bhop. This is a fact. You can't do it, and are therefore unqualified to comment about NS1 balance.
:3
</inb4thelock>
I know what quadruple bypass surgery is. I'm still ignorant of how to do it.
I should be ignored if I argue against it. Especially, by qualified medical professionals who think it is a very important to cardiovascular medicine.
NS1 is balanced around Bhop. This is a fact. You can't do it, and are therefore unqualified to comment about NS1 balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point exactly. You can't comprehend that someone could try bunny hopping and not enjoy it. People are allowed to having differing opinions and for some reason, that offends you.
If you can't behave yourself, don't post. That goes for all of you.