I'm very pleased to hear that I will have access to the Spark Editor soon!
I'm interested in how the DI will be previewed in the editor. I've also been wondering about the over-under issues with the commander view. As I recall, this was possibly a resolvable interface issue for the comm to be able to view multi-layered environments easily. This will have some bearing on how creative the layouts of these maps can be.
I guess I'll have to wait for the tools and design documents to find this out.
Is there any chance the source for one/all the official maps will be released? It's very useful to see how other mappers made their creations...(one of the things I enjoyed about L4D)
or better yet, since there's no compiling, will there be a difference between the source and the final map? (will all maps be open-source?) if there's not, I wonder how consistency checks will be done between maps...
<!--quoteo(post=1735284:date=Nov 1 2009, 10:55 AM:name=slayer20)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (slayer20 @ Nov 1 2009, 10:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How much will UWE be paying for these user made maps?
I'm sure it won't be a lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest if I had a map that was chosen for inclusion in NS2 I would probably give up the rights to it for free on the grounds that it was an open source map for the community. Seeing UWE and their community prosper due to open resources would make me much happier than some money (which I doubt would be <i>too</i> much).
<!--quoteo(post=1735475:date=Nov 2 2009, 06:34 AM:name=Invader_Scoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Invader_Scoot @ Nov 2 2009, 06:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest if I had a map that was chosen for inclusion in NS2 I would probably give up the rights to it for free on the grounds that it was an open source map for the community. Seeing UWE and their community prosper due to open resources would make me much happier than some money (which I doubt would be <i>too</i> much).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The engine and tools look amazing, a question about the lighting though, will we be able to select witch lights we want to be dynamic and have others be static?
<!--quoteo(post=1735766:date=Nov 3 2009, 12:09 AM:name=K43)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (K43 @ Nov 3 2009, 12:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The engine and tools look amazing, a question about the lighting though, will we be able to select witch lights we want to be dynamic and have others be static?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe that it has been said before that the editor requires no compiling, but as that is something I'm recalling off the top of my head it could have been just some heresay and not an actual developer's writing.
By static do you mean a light that has been precalculated and does not require real-time rendering? If the editor does in fact not require compiling, I'm not entirely sure how my definition of a static light would even be created.
I'm sure though in a few weeks (as the Spark level editor is supposed to debut this month) we'll have all of these questions answered.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1735772:date=Nov 3 2009, 07:40 AM:name=K43)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (K43 @ Nov 3 2009, 07:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->precalculated, if i didn't want every light to be real time for optimization purposes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't they tell something about (auto-generated?) ambient lights that support the lighting and kind of simulate radiosity? Maybe you can choose, which lights contribute to that?
If you can define lights as precalculated then the game must support static lighting, and if it does that the game must also require compiling.
So either the game doesn't support precalculated lights (a bit silly considering how useful they are and the touted goal of making it highly scalable) or the compiling is optional and you only have to do it for a final pass like you would an HDR compile in source.
Or possibly some strange thing like it does it before the level loads or something but that would make little sense when you could do it once and save it in the level to cut load times.
<!--quoteo(post=1735286:date=Nov 2 2009, 02:06 AM:name=dux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dux @ Nov 2 2009, 02:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's yet to be decided<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please oh PLEASE support Collada format... that would make quite a few modelers I know oh so very damned happy :)
They use Blender and use Collada quite extensively as they work with other people on different platforms of applications.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1736227:date=Nov 4 2009, 11:34 PM:name=Daworm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daworm @ Nov 4 2009, 11:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please oh PLEASE support Collada format... that would make quite a few modelers I know oh so very damned happy :)
They use Blender and use Collada quite extensively as they work with other people on different platforms of applications.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We already use COLLADA, I think dux was referring to the scheme for compensating mappers.
<!--quoteo(post=1735715:date=Nov 3 2009, 11:36 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Nov 3 2009, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Argh. I have to model other random stuff for another class. No time to bugger around in this editor. Me sad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bad luck, after my last exam on Friday I'm a free man for 3 months!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But the point is the engine does its own occlusion culling so there's not really much optimization to do<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does that work with models or just the "brush" geometry? for example could a large mesh cull out whats behind it. Hope we will get our hands on tools for getting custom models/textures in-game too.
I havent did any work of my own since i started working as an artist a few months back, want to get back into the swing of things when this is released :D
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1736353:date=Nov 5 2009, 04:59 PM:name=Reeke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reeke @ Nov 5 2009, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does that work with models or just the "brush" geometry? for example could a large mesh cull out whats behind it. Hope we will get our hands on tools for getting custom models/textures in-game too.
I havent did any work of my own since i started working as an artist a few months back, want to get back into the swing of things when this is released :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1736354:date=Nov 5 2009, 05:05 PM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Nov 5 2009, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It works for both. You could build an entire map out of models if you wanted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You probably would, most high end games do as far as I know, it's how you get the visual quality which you really can't get with brushes.
<!--quoteo(post=1736366:date=Nov 5 2009, 05:43 PM:name=Fortune)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 5 2009, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow that's awesome, is there any noticableperformance difference between using mainly brushes or meshes? I prefer a lot of brushwork myself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well meshes can be far more optimised, as they can literally be a simple skin of polygons and anything you don't see can be entirely removed, a brush is always a solid block. Meshes can also be instanced so you only have to load them once, whereas each brush would be unique. If it doesn't use BSP based optimisation and supports mesh based occlusion culling then there is also presumably no performance issue with using meshes as your main geometry (although I imagine a complex mesh might be a bit expensive on the culling algorithm).
I would expect meshes to be the more efficient method by and large, although some things (like terrain) would be pretty unique per map, so I would also say that using in-editor geometry would be more sensible in many instances than making a lot of unique models with likely little performance benefit.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1736395:date=Nov 5 2009, 11:43 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 5 2009, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736395"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... a brush is always a solid block. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Totally wrong. I don't think you actually meant it the way it is read, but... Just like a mesh, a brush is merely a triangle skin (12 tris). There's nothing inside it.
Brushes are not volumetric objects, they are effectively hollow. :-)
<!--quoteo(post=1736231:date=Nov 5 2009, 10:19 AM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Nov 5 2009, 10:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We already use COLLADA, I think dux was referring to the scheme for compensating mappers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah awesome. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1734878:date=Oct 31 2009, 04:51 AM:name=monopolowa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (monopolowa @ Oct 31 2009, 04:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure the level design documents will have quite a bit to say about certain gameplay mechanics...We'll need lots of detail regarding the power grid, for example.
It would certainly be nice to have the alpha as well, but it's not entirely necessary to start out...as long as we have plenty of info in the design docs, such as sizes of all the units, jump height, time to run from a hive to marine start, etc., we should be fine (NS1 mapping guidelines were informative, I expect these will be as well)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's unlikely to give specifics because the sort of things you mention will be balanced toweards the end of dev. You'll have to start off with loose ideas and just play around with the editor to make interesting architecture/lighting, etc. to begin with. You could try to make a map but there'd be no guarantee it'd be balanced. It'd be more fruitful to do stuff like 'design a corridor' competitions to get everyone familiar with the features and interface of the editor.
Protip for UW... have a site showing off the virtues of the editor, all in one place.
I know this guy who is a great mapper, always complaining about much the HL2 editor sucks ... and he friggin' LOVED the mapping/textures in NS1
So when I pitch the Spark Editor to him ... I'd like to be able to link him to all the videos and info in one place, and not have him hunt down multiple blog posts...
<!--quoteo(post=1737327:date=Nov 12 2009, 03:39 PM:name=OBhave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OBhave @ Nov 12 2009, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737327"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Protip for UW... have a site showing off the virtues of the editor, all in one place.
I know this guy who is a great mapper, always complaining about much the HL2 editor sucks ... and he friggin' LOVED the mapping/textures in NS1
So when I pitch the Spark Editor to him ... I'd like to be able to link him to all the videos and info in one place, and not have him hunt down multiple blog posts...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a moddb page for it, not much info yet though, same with the NS2 wiki.
Since UWE will be licensing this engine I expect they'll put up an official page for it, as of right now it's just an early treat for those who preordered the special edition and probably a test bed for how well it will run on different hardware.
If he maps for Source then you just have to say: "Dynamic lighting in the editor = Zero compile times = WYSIWYG". If he's not sold by this then he's got no blood in his veins.
But the editor is as Alpha as the game itself, though.
<!--quoteo(post=1735022:date=Nov 1 2009, 12:22 AM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Nov 1 2009, 12:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm reading the posts on sparkfun.com, I realised that UW will probably get a cease and desist letter from SPARC international. THey're also taking sparkfun to court, because spark is phonetically the same as SPARC.
might be an idea to look in to this before commiting to spark as a name:
Comments
I'm interested in how the DI will be previewed in the editor. I've also been wondering about the over-under issues with the commander view. As I recall, this was possibly a resolvable interface issue for the comm to be able to view multi-layered environments easily. This will have some bearing on how creative the layouts of these maps can be.
I guess I'll have to wait for the tools and design documents to find this out.
[waits patiently]
or better yet, since there's no compiling, will there be a difference between the source and the final map? (will all maps be open-source?)
if there's not, I wonder how consistency checks will be done between maps...
I'm sure it won't be a lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest if I had a map that was chosen for inclusion in NS2 I would probably give up the rights to it for free on the grounds that it was an open source map for the community. Seeing UWE and their community prosper due to open resources would make me much happier than some money (which I doubt would be <i>too</i> much).
exactly what i was thinking if it happens me.
I believe that it has been said before that the editor requires no compiling, but as that is something I'm recalling off the top of my head it could have been just some heresay and not an actual developer's writing.
By static do you mean a light that has been precalculated and does not require real-time rendering? If the editor does in fact not require compiling, I'm not entirely sure how my definition of a static light would even be created.
I'm sure though in a few weeks (as the Spark level editor is supposed to debut this month) we'll have all of these questions answered.
Didn't they tell something about (auto-generated?) ambient lights that support the lighting and kind of simulate radiosity?
Maybe you can choose, which lights contribute to that?
So either the game doesn't support precalculated lights (a bit silly considering how useful they are and the touted goal of making it highly scalable) or the compiling is optional and you only have to do it for a final pass like you would an HDR compile in source.
Or possibly some strange thing like it does it before the level loads or something but that would make little sense when you could do it once and save it in the level to cut load times.
I mean... you can load maps without compiling so... everyone got the map in the whole thing to be open in an editor...
Please oh PLEASE support Collada format... that would make quite a few modelers I know oh so very damned happy :)
They use Blender and use Collada quite extensively as they work with other people on different platforms of applications.
They use Blender and use Collada quite extensively as they work with other people on different platforms of applications.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We already use COLLADA, I think dux was referring to the scheme for compensating mappers.
Bad luck, after my last exam on Friday I'm a free man for 3 months!
Does that work with models or just the "brush" geometry? for example could a large mesh cull out whats behind it. Hope we will get our hands on tools for getting custom models/textures in-game too.
I havent did any work of my own since i started working as an artist a few months back, want to get back into the swing of things when this is released :D
I havent did any work of my own since i started working as an artist a few months back, want to get back into the swing of things when this is released :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It works with both of them.
Good to know it'l be mesh friendly, I'd like to build the bulk of the work in max, then bring it in and instance whats needed.
You probably would, most high end games do as far as I know, it's how you get the visual quality which you really can't get with brushes.
<!--quoteo(post=1736366:date=Nov 5 2009, 05:43 PM:name=Fortune)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 5 2009, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow that's awesome, is there any noticableperformance difference between using mainly brushes or meshes? I prefer a lot of brushwork myself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well meshes can be far more optimised, as they can literally be a simple skin of polygons and anything you don't see can be entirely removed, a brush is always a solid block. Meshes can also be instanced so you only have to load them once, whereas each brush would be unique. If it doesn't use BSP based optimisation and supports mesh based occlusion culling then there is also presumably no performance issue with using meshes as your main geometry (although I imagine a complex mesh might be a bit expensive on the culling algorithm).
I would expect meshes to be the more efficient method by and large, although some things (like terrain) would be pretty unique per map, so I would also say that using in-editor geometry would be more sensible in many instances than making a lot of unique models with likely little performance benefit.
Totally wrong. I don't think you actually meant it the way it is read, but... Just like a mesh, a brush is merely a triangle skin (12 tris). There's nothing inside it.
Brushes are not volumetric objects, they are effectively hollow. :-)
Ah awesome. :)
It would certainly be nice to have the alpha as well, but it's not entirely necessary to start out...as long as we have plenty of info in the design docs, such as sizes of all the units, jump height, time to run from a hive to marine start, etc., we should be fine (NS1 mapping guidelines were informative, I expect these will be as well)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's unlikely to give specifics because the sort of things you mention will be balanced toweards the end of dev. You'll have to start off with loose ideas and just play around with the editor to make interesting architecture/lighting, etc. to begin with. You could try to make a map but there'd be no guarantee it'd be balanced. It'd be more fruitful to do stuff like 'design a corridor' competitions to get everyone familiar with the features and interface of the editor.
I know this guy who is a great mapper, always complaining about much the HL2 editor sucks ... and he friggin' LOVED the mapping/textures in NS1
So when I pitch the Spark Editor to him ... I'd like to be able to link him to all the videos and info in one place, and not have him hunt down multiple blog posts...
I know this guy who is a great mapper, always complaining about much the HL2 editor sucks ... and he friggin' LOVED the mapping/textures in NS1
So when I pitch the Spark Editor to him ... I'd like to be able to link him to all the videos and info in one place, and not have him hunt down multiple blog posts...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a moddb page for it, not much info yet though, same with the NS2 wiki.
Since UWE will be licensing this engine I expect they'll put up an official page for it, as of right now it's just an early treat for those who preordered the special edition and probably a test bed for how well it will run on different hardware.
But the editor is as Alpha as the game itself, though.
might be an idea to look in to this before commiting to spark as a name:
<a href="http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=300" target="_blank">http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=300</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quazal also have an Online (eg. xbox live, etc.) library called Spark.