The ethics of mapping for a retail product.
Temphage
Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Community communism?</div>One of the things that has always drove me nuts about TF2 was how few actual official maps it shipped with. Every update schedule since its launch, they've packed up some community maps that they liked and threw them in as semi-official ones. To the casual mouth-breathing idiot, this seems like a great idea - the maplist gets expanded with some maps that you know are good, and you no longer need to go hunting across the internet into whatever idiotic obscure corners and places people upload maps to.
However what I find wrong with this is that inevitably, every update cycle for TF2 produces ungodly volumes of attention that inevitably turns into raw sales. Effectively what is happening here is Valve is making mounds of cash off of your maps and compensating the map creator in only the most pathetic way possible. When I heard that NS2, for some ridiculous reason, was shipping with only four maps (or was it five? Who cares, anything less than nine or ten is sad) and was going to rely on community maps to populate it, this was the first thing to come to my mind. What are the ethics of producing maps (a vital component of any game) for free for a retail product? Where do you draw the line on this? Why not ship the game with a couple of low-poly models and let the community make some for you?
Inevitably my first response to any backlash to this is that people need to get out of the idea that this is a mod effort. This is a retail product they're expecting to make money and profit off of. If they're making money off of my work, strictly speaking I'm entitled compensation. It's just because the software world works in this ridiculous little niche of EULAs and TOSs that merely clicking 'Accept' allows people to bypass the law that companies can get away with it.
There was criticism of Infinity Ward when it was found out that in COD4 a multiplayer controllable AC-130 mod existed that was pretty much the entire concept lifted and put into MW2. How is that any different from the mentality that it's "okay" to make maps for free that ultimately translate to raw profit for someone else?
However what I find wrong with this is that inevitably, every update cycle for TF2 produces ungodly volumes of attention that inevitably turns into raw sales. Effectively what is happening here is Valve is making mounds of cash off of your maps and compensating the map creator in only the most pathetic way possible. When I heard that NS2, for some ridiculous reason, was shipping with only four maps (or was it five? Who cares, anything less than nine or ten is sad) and was going to rely on community maps to populate it, this was the first thing to come to my mind. What are the ethics of producing maps (a vital component of any game) for free for a retail product? Where do you draw the line on this? Why not ship the game with a couple of low-poly models and let the community make some for you?
Inevitably my first response to any backlash to this is that people need to get out of the idea that this is a mod effort. This is a retail product they're expecting to make money and profit off of. If they're making money off of my work, strictly speaking I'm entitled compensation. It's just because the software world works in this ridiculous little niche of EULAs and TOSs that merely clicking 'Accept' allows people to bypass the law that companies can get away with it.
There was criticism of Infinity Ward when it was found out that in COD4 a multiplayer controllable AC-130 mod existed that was pretty much the entire concept lifted and put into MW2. How is that any different from the mentality that it's "okay" to make maps for free that ultimately translate to raw profit for someone else?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I stopped reading there. Another gaming emo =/
Is there a source for this? Or at least more details? I've not heard anything to this effect though I suppose it doesn't mean it couldn't have been said years ago.
Search for it and you will find that...
Emo as in you are an over reacting whiny baby with no real problems that thinks the world is out to get them. Maybe some of us actually enjoy mapping, and the idea of our creation being used in a game is reward enough? It's not like unknown worlds is coming to your house and forcing you to map. How about if no one wants to do it, then they won't have maps? I get the feeling that won't be the case though.
edit: PS. Insults only make you look like a child
I too remember Charlie saying that they would compensate mappers for maps to be released within the games release. But you do have a point there Temphage. I guess I too would feel cheated if Valve bought my map as a one payment kind of deal, while they reap the massive sales increase they get for releasing updates. Its interesting to think about.
How about this, if I make a map for NS2 and they buy it off me, I would be able to state the following on my level design portfolio.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Learned and used a completely new map editor to design a fully functioning multiplayer level in the space of a few months, which was then bought by Unknown Worlds to be used in their first AAA title, Natural Selection 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be able to say this is pretty much every wannabe level designer's dream, it's impressive to say for sure in every way.
A newly released software mastered in not time at all? Check.
A level bought by a professional game company? Check.
A level featured in a new title which would make or break the company (AKA their standards are high to say the least)? Check.
Like I've said before, they can keep the money, credits alone would be worthwhile.
How about this, if I make a map for NS2 and they buy it off me, I would be able to state the following on my level design portfolio.
To be able to say this is pretty much every wannabe level designer's dream, it's impressive to say for sure in every way.
A newly released software mastered in not time at all? Check.
A level bought by a professional game company? Check.
A level featured in a new title which would make or break the company (AKA their standards are high to say the least)? Check.
Like I've said before, they can keep the money, credits alone would be worthwhile.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have absolutely no interest in what <b>you</b> want. I have no use whatsoever for a design portfolio. And what's more, you can still get paid and put that in there, derp. If they're paying you for it, you can twist that to sound way more impressive than: Gave free stuff to whoever would take it.
It's just a natural force, like gravity.
? Wasn't the whole point of your post a question about the ethics of using maps from the community? And then a community member posts why he's perfectly okay with NS2 using his maps and you say you don't care?
Right and wrong. Money is worthwhile to everyone. The 'honor' of putting it in my lousy resume is worthwhile to only a handful of people, and that's not even 'real' compensation anyway.
Actually it's probably more valuable to anybody in a position to use it than any amount of money you can realistically expect.
Because it could easily be the difference between being employed and not in a job which can make you a hell of a lot of money.
In that case you can refuse to let UWE use your map unless they pay you.
I agree with this guy.
Stop wasting our time with your useless ranting then. You obviously get no joy from artistic endeavors - if you truly did you would understand why many community members are creating maps right now with most of them not expecting money.
Not everyone is motivated purely by profit. Getting paid for something you do that's enjoyable to do is just icing on the cake.
Not everyone is motivated purely by profit. Getting paid for something you do that's enjoyable to do is just icing on the cake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty thick icing mind you.
No, my statement is more impressive to a future employer who knows his stuff, maybe not to a casual mouth-breathing... I digress.
I don't care what you want either, but NS2 could be my big chance and I'll gladly make a map for free if I'm included with the credits, hell, I enjoy making them anyway, it would be like any other map I've made, for fun.
If you're not interested in a career of this kind of thing, then it sounds like a hobby aka you do it for fun and that's your satisfaction there, if not a hobby then I have no idea what you're expecting to do with Spark. If you want money I suggest a job, because frankly expecting to get compensated money wise for a hobby is pretty ridiculous.
This is of course assuming UWE would buy your map in the first place.
With reference to offering maps for free: it's rare that companies will pay new, inexperienced designers for casual work, because there's a lot of risk involved in that. By doing some free work, you have the opportunity to prove that you are talented and reliable, as well as adding to your portfolio. If you don't want to work for free, there are other options open to you, although they will typically be more difficult.
I'm annoyed to have to say this in two threads in a row, but again, keep it civil, or it will be locked.
I've seen many community made maps that are better than the official ones in many games, you should just be thankful they released an SDK that allows maps and stuff to be added extending the games life.
With reference to offering maps for free: it's rare that companies will pay new, inexperienced designers for casual work, because there's a lot of risk involved in that. By doing some free work, you have the opportunity to prove that you are talented and reliable, as well as adding to your portfolio. If you don't want to work for free, there are other options open to you, although they will typically be more difficult.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't you say this about any profession?
There's <i>no</i> excuse for relying on community maps when the developer is already established and has released several successful games, as in the case of Valve.
With UWE it makes a little more sense to rely on community contributions since we can assume they probably can't afford to add an employee. UWE still makes out on the deal, though, because even if they offer several thousand dollars for each map it may only come out to $10/hr or less when you consider the time involved to create a map from start to retail quality finish.
As far as NS is concerned, there's not much risk in paying for the best community maps to become "official". There are a lot of skilled people in this community, many of whom have mapped for NS1, so there will definitely be plenty of good looking maps around during beta, and the preorders will make sure that they see plenty of play and balance testing.
It's confirmed that UWE will offer compensation for maps to be included officially (as I believe they should, it would not make good business sense to expect to get something for free so you can make money off of it)
Will including your map in a shipped AAA game be good for your resume? certainly, but more useful for some than for others. Is money a good incentive to work on a map? yes, I'd say it would influence people to do their best , even if it's not a necessary addition for some people. It's good that you can get both.
Valve creates enough maps for a release, and releases the game saying they'll add some more maps in the coming months. They have some designers work on these maps, knowing that the added content would be great for the product and the community.
Meanwhile, thousands of community mappers create their own. Valve looks through them, finds a few gems, and releases them alongside their own (and pays the mappers to their content). More content never hurts a game, and Valve probably spent a lot less in paying the mappers a lump sum instead of paying a salaried professional for a few months of dev time. It's win win all around.
monopolowa: I wasn't talking about UWE, rather in more general terms.
Sorry guys, I should have been a bit more clear.
There's <i>no</i> excuse for relying on community maps when the developer is already established and has released several successful games, as in the case of Valve.
With UWE it makes a little more sense to rely on community contributions since we can assume they probably can't afford to add an employee. UWE still makes out on the deal, though, because even if they offer several thousand dollars for each map it may only come out to $10/hr or less when you consider the time involved to create a map from start to retail quality finish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just saying, but several thousand? When I think of UWE buying a map I was thinking $20 maybe hah.
Of course it makes sense when you put it as hours, but still a strange concept, to me anyway, I worked my butt off to save a few thousand to spend half a year in Canada. Thinking I could make similar money with a job I'd enjoy doing (Even with all of the horror stories you hear about) is mind blowingly awesome. Making a map for NS2 regardless of if it's included in the game or not would still look great on a portfolio and would still be fun to do. If UWE put it into their game (Stranger things have happened), that would be 'compensation' enough.
I actually hate the word compensation used in this sense, it's like saying 'I accidently made a map and it was the most painful thing in the world, you better compensate me for it!'.
Also if companies didn't do these things, the gaming industry would be dead.
You know the whole reason Epic and Valve release their map editors/modding tools and run regular competitions is to encourage young people to take an interest in game industry careers and reward people for their hard work in striving to get in the industry already. Without these there would be no new blood to the industry, it's not about 'relying on the community to do all the work', it's about giving an opportunity to talented individuals and teams. Opportunity that's not easy to come by. You see to land a game related job, you usually need experience in a game related job, which sucks if it's you know, your first game related job. Map editors and modding tools give you the experience, winning competitions, getting what you've made into a released game is the proof you have what it takes. That is exactly what is happening with Valve and TF2. The money can be made when you've landed the job because of those things.
To begin with, your example is a poor one. Community maps make up only a small amount of the hype surrounding an update. In fact, most of them are chosen because they are already well-known and widely accepted by the community. It's about giving formal recognition to good mappers much more than creating publicity for Valve. They see to that with new official maps, new items, new achievements, new promotional videos, and, following the example of any good drug dealer, free weekends. I could say more if you really want to argue about it, but this is only tangential to the real issue.
Fundamentally, mappers work for enjoyment. They don't expect compensation, and frankly, very few of them would deserve it. It's a form of artistic creation, and if their work is successful enough to attract official attention, then that's wonderful. Very few amateur artists are motivated by money, and if a local art gallery offered to display their work I can guarantee the typical first reaction would not be "what's in it for me?" As others have already noted, even if they <i>do</i> plan to pursue their art as a career, free publicity and a real mark in your resume are worth more than money for a burgeoning amateur.
There's also the fact that mappers don't own the tools they're working with. The Intellectual Property of Natural Selection, the Spark Engine, and the associated mapping tool all belong to UWE. IP Licensing fees are substantial, and professional-grade software normally retails for hundreds of dollars for a <i>non-commercial</i> version, but UWE grants free access to all of them to anyone who shelled out $20 on NS2. Generally speaking, if you want to be paid for work you do with someone else's IP, you do it on commission rather than throwing it at the internet and hoping the IP owners decide to buy it off you. If they want to <i>sell</i> your work, then you have grounds to expect compensation, but these maps are given away for free.
...and, last but not least, if you ever decide you're getting a raw deal for whatever reason, you always have the option of just saying no when they ask to use your map.